Dorsett, Other ex-NFL Players Show Signs of Cumulative Head Trauma (1 Viewer)

[just_want_2_win]

Pro Football Hall of Famers Tony Dorsett and Joe DeLamielleure, and former NFL All-Pro Leonard Marshall have been diagnosed as having signs of chronic traumatic encephalopathy, a degenerative condition many scientists say is caused by head trauma and linked to depression and dementia, doctors have told "Outside the Lines."

Dorsett said he also gets lost when he drives his two youngest daughters, ages 15 and 10, to their soccer and volleyball games. "I've got to take them to places that I've been going to for many, many, many years, and then I don't know how to get there."

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/9931754/former-nfl-stars-tony-dorsett-leonard-marshall-joe-delameilleure-show-indicators-cte-resulting-football-concussions

 

[just_want_2_win]

And in related player's health news, Broncos guard John Moffitt retired today:

“I just really thought about it and decided I’m not happy. I’m not happy at all. And I think it’s really madness to risk your body, risk your well-being and risk your happiness for money. Everybody, they just don’t get it and they think it’s crazy. But I think what I was doing is crazy…I don’t care about the Super Bowl. I don’t. I used to. I mean, anytime I played this game, I gave my heart to it and I’m a person that does things with his heart…I don’t need the Super Bowl experience. I played in great stadiums and I played against great players. And I had that experience and it’s enough… How much do you really need? What do you want in life? And I decided that I don’t really need to be a millionaire.”

http://tracking.si.com/2013/11/06/john-moffitt-retire-broncos-nfl/

 

[Mello]

Well, yeah. That's what happens when you hit and get hit repeatedly for a living.

 

[cobalt_27]

I give up. These folks are bordering on unethical now. Both with respect to Dorsett and the other retirees, but to then neuroscientific community as a whole.

 

[Warrior]

So there is a downside to getting paid millions upon millions of dollars to play a game for a living?

Feel free to trade places with 99% of the population that would be happy to.

 

[SportsGuru311]

Just saw this on ESPN. Unreal

 

[Mile High]

And in related player's health news, Broncos guard John Moffitt retired today:

“I just really thought about it and decided I’m not happy. I’m not happy at all. And I think it’s really madness to risk your body, risk your well-being and risk your happiness for money. Everybody, they just don’t get it and they think it’s crazy. But I think what I was doing is crazy…I don’t care about the Super Bowl. I don’t. I used to. I mean, anytime I played this game, I gave my heart to it and I’m a person that does things with his heart…I don’t need the Super Bowl experience. I played in great stadiums and I played against great players. And I had that experience and it’s enough… How much do you really need? What do you want in life? And I decided that I don’t really need to be a millionaire.”

http://tracking.si.com/2013/11/06/john-moffitt-retire-broncos-nfl/

I just can't with some of these guys. Guy doesn't even play, whats the risk to his body? He should be thinking of setting up his family for years to come.

 

[CalBear]

So there is a downside to getting paid millions upon millions of dollars to play a game for a living?

Feel free to trade places with 99% of the population that would be happy to.

Tony Dorsett's career earnings were something less than $4M. He's 59 years old. If you entered the workforce at age 20, and worked to age 59, your career earnings are in the same ballpark.

Plus, you can remember the way to your daughter's soccer game.

 

[Mello]

So there is a downside to getting paid millions upon millions of dollars to play a game for a living?

Feel free to trade places with 99% of the population that would be happy to.

Tony Dorsett's career earnings were something less than $4M. He's 59 years old. If you entered the workforce at age 20, and worked to age 59, your career earnings are in the same ballpark.

Plus, you can remember the way to your daughter's soccer game.

That money was worth a lot more 30 years ago. If he used it wisely, it's grown to a lot more now.

 

[CalBear]

So there is a downside to getting paid millions upon millions of dollars to play a game for a living?

Feel free to trade places with 99% of the population that would be happy to.

Tony Dorsett's career earnings were something less than $4M. He's 59 years old. If you entered the workforce at age 20, and worked to age 59, your career earnings are in the same ballpark.

Plus, you can remember the way to your daughter's soccer game.

That money was worth a lot more 30 years ago. If he used it wisely, it's grown to a lot more now.

Yes, the $200K/year Dorsett got in his 5-year rookie contract was worth more then than it would be now. But it's not set-yourself-for-life money; nor is the $400K/year he averaged over his 10-year career.

To put it another way, Dorsett's career earnings are about one tenth of one percent of Jerry Jones' net worth. Jerry Jones could pay Dorsett his career earnings (or you, yours) once a day, every day, for three years. That's what big money looks like.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

I give up. These folks are bordering on unethical now. Both with respect to Dorsett and the other retirees, but to then neuroscientific community as a whole.

That's a poor attitude.

 

[cobalt_27]

You know, alternatively, not to ruin everyone's day here, but Dorsett might have clinical depression and/or pseudodementia or vascular disease or some other process going on here. The concept of CTE doesn't hold a monopoly on the co-occurrence of depression and memory loss.

What's so amazing about this CTE "diagnosis" is that it never required the rigors of the scientific process to make it into the mainstream. Fascinating that frontline and other media outlets never bother to interview anyone else from the neuroscience community aside from McKee's or Omalu's labs, which would potentially be great fun, as most in neuroscience at this point believe the whole CTE business is exactly that. A business. And a huge insult on how to conduct real science.

Please see cogent reviews by Grant Iverson (2013) and Wortzel et al., (2013) for more measured, cogent reviews on this nonsense.

That is all.

 

[just_want_2_win]

Wow 3rd story today (non-NFL, but major NCAA): Josh Williford, a 6-foot-7, 345-pound giant, started 19 games for LSU. But a nasty concussion last season led to another -- and a decision to stop playing.

But that's what was widely reported the day in August Williford suffered the second concussion of his career. Breathless armchair medical hyperbole gave way to a brutal truth. Williford was out only 11 seconds after a collision in practice. It was also enough to force him to give up football.

"Oh, it was just terrible," he said of the symptoms that drove him to an easy conclusion this time. "Headaches. You couldn't mess with your phone or TV.

"You don't want to have any brain activity. I don't have very much of that as it is."

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/dennis-dodd/24192577/former-lsu-guard-josh-williford-tries-to-make-sense-of-his-future

So is this head trauma stuff happening more now or just being pointed out more?

 

[MoveToSkypager]

You know, alternatively, not to ruin everyone's day here, but Dorsett might have clinical depression and/or pseudodementia or vascular disease or some other process going on here. The concept of CTE doesn't hold a monopoly on the co-occurrence of depression and memory loss.

What's so amazing about this CTE "diagnosis" is that it never required the rigors of the scientific process to make it into the mainstream. Fascinating that frontline and other media outlets never bother to interview anyone else from the neuroscience community aside from McKee's or Omalu's labs, which would potentially be great fun, as most in neuroscience at this point believe the whole CTE business is exactly that. A business. And a huge insult on how to conduct real science.

Please see cogent reviews by Grant Iverson (2013) and Wortzel et al., (2013) for more measured, cogent reviews on this nonsense.

That is all.

Instead of being mad at footballguys message board maybe you should give PBS a call. I'm sure if you have credentials then they'll listen to you.

 

[TheFanatic]

So there is a downside to getting paid millions upon millions of dollars to play a game for a living?

Feel free to trade places with 99% of the population that would be happy to.

Tony Dorsett's career earnings were something less than $4M. He's 59 years old. If you entered the workforce at age 20, and worked to age 59, your career earnings are in the same ballpark.

Plus, you can remember the way to your daughter's soccer game.

Right. Count me in the 1% that would not trade places...

 

[Ballstein]

leather helmets solves all

 

[mbuehner]

So there is a downside to getting paid millions upon millions of dollars to play a game for a living?

Feel free to trade places with 99% of the population that would be happy to.

What an astonishingly stupid thing to say. Ill assume you've never had a loved one with dementia. Thats setting aside the Chris Benoit possibility.

 

[Jewell]

I heard Dorsett on Dan Lebatard's show. Dorsett sounded like he had brain trauma. He talked a bit slow. Quite sad.

 

[cobalt_27]

leather helmets solves all

Probably not the way to go. Watch the rate of skull fractures and intracranial hemorrhages go up with leather helmets.

Look, I think we can all agree hitting one's head should be avoided. But, in my mind, it is completely irresponsible--and unethical--for UCLA to publicly speculate that Dorsett and others have CTE at this time. They are in the midst of trying to test/market/sell a ligand that detects proteinopathy in the brain that is being used FAs a proxy to speculate whether someone has CTE. But, so far the actual science does not support the theory, yet two groups of researchers have made a lot of money and fame by stoking fears about this stuff.

In the general population, it is not unusual for a 55-60-year old to experience memory loss.

In the general population, it is not unusual for 55+ yearl old men to experience depression (this is the most at-risk group for suicide in the U.S.)

In the general population, autopsy studies have revealed aggregation of tau on autopsy in otherwise perfectly healthy individuals who were cognitively and behaviorally intact. So the significance of tau in the brain remains unclear, and the association between repeated head trauma and this specific tauopathy is far from being established.

Dorsett may have early signs of dementia and certainly seems to be showing concerning signs of depression. Diagnostically, there are a host of plausible etiologies, all of which are far more empirically-sound and likely at this point than chalking it up to CTE.

 

[Hoss Style]

So there is a downside to getting paid millions upon millions of dollars to play a game for a living?

Feel free to trade places with 99% of the population that would be happy to.

What an astonishingly stupid thing to say. Ill assume you've never had a loved one with dementia. Thats setting aside the Chris Benoit possibility.

I'll try to clarify how I took Warrior's post (not that he meant it this way, just my guess):

I think the majority of adults would put themselves in harms way to provide for their families and future generations. In our history there have been tons of jobs that were harmful (mine workers, etc) and there still are today (high rise construction, hazardous material handling, etc) - and all those jobs are paid at a fraction of what NFL players are paid.

So, I see the point of people when they say almost anyone would trade places - because most would, unless their finances were already set for them and their children for the next 50+ years. Looking at the demographic of the world financially, it might not be a stretch to say 99% of the population would say "Yes!" to a few million dollars (at minimum) for a higher chance at health problems when they get older. I think even people with no children would have a huge percentage to take the gamble.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

leather helmets solves all

Probably not the way to go. Watch the rate of skull fractures and intracranial hemorrhages go up with leather helmets.

Look, I think we can all agree hitting one's head should be avoided. But, in my mind, it is completely irresponsible--and unethical--for UCLA to publicly speculate that Dorsett and others have CTE at this time. They are in the midst of trying to test/market/sell a ligand that detects proteinopathy in the brain that is being used FAs a proxy to speculate whether someone has CTE. But, so far the actual science does not support the theory, yet two groups of researchers have made a lot of money and fame by stoking fears about this stuff.

In the general population, it is not unusual for a 55-60-year old to experience memory loss.

In the general population, it is not unusual for 55+ yearl old men to experience depression (this is the most at-risk group for suicide in the U.S.)

In the general population, autopsy studies have revealed aggregation of tau on autopsy in otherwise perfectly healthy individuals who were cognitively and behaviorally intact. So the significance of tau in the brain remains unclear, and the association between repeated head trauma and this specific tauopathy is far from being established.

Dorsett may have early signs of dementia and certainly seems to be showing concerning signs of depression. Diagnostically, there are a host of plausible etiologies, all of which are far more empirically-sound and likely at this point than chalking it up to CTE.

In your opinion does smoking cause cancer?

 

[Snotbubbles]

So there is a downside to getting paid millions upon millions of dollars to play a game for a living?

Feel free to trade places with 99% of the population that would be happy to.

Tony Dorsett's career earnings were something less than $4M. He's 59 years old. If you entered the workforce at age 20, and worked to age 59, your career earnings are in the same ballpark.

Plus, you can remember the way to your daughter's soccer game.

That money was worth a lot more 30 years ago. If he used it wisely, it's grown to a lot more now.

Yes, the $200K/year Dorsett got in his 5-year rookie contract was worth more then than it would be now. But it's not set-yourself-for-life money; nor is the $400K/year he averaged over his 10-year career.

To put it another way, Dorsett's career earnings are about one tenth of one percent of Jerry Jones' net worth. Jerry Jones could pay Dorsett his career earnings (or you, yours) once a day, every day, for three years. That's what big money looks like.

$200,000 earning a miniscule 3% interest over 39 years is worth $633,000 today.

If Dorsett even poorly invested (like above) only half of his career earnings (2M) he has close to 5M in the bank. He's set for life and that's only if he did poorly in his investments. If he invested the same earnings and earned 8% which was considered the norm he'd have over 20M in the bank.

 

[cobalt_27]

leather helmets solves all

Probably not the way to go. Watch the rate of skull fractures and intracranial hemorrhages go up with leather helmets.

Look, I think we can all agree hitting one's head should be avoided. But, in my mind, it is completely irresponsible--and unethical--for UCLA to publicly speculate that Dorsett and others have CTE at this time. They are in the midst of trying to test/market/sell a ligand that detects proteinopathy in the brain that is being used FAs a proxy to speculate whether someone has CTE. But, so far the actual science does not support the theory, yet two groups of researchers have made a lot of money and fame by stoking fears about this stuff.

In the general population, it is not unusual for a 55-60-year old to experience memory loss.

In the general population, it is not unusual for 55+ yearl old men to experience depression (this is the most at-risk group for suicide in the U.S.)

In the general population, autopsy studies have revealed aggregation of tau on autopsy in otherwise perfectly healthy individuals who were cognitively and behaviorally intact. So the significance of tau in the brain remains unclear, and the association between repeated head trauma and this specific tauopathy is far from being established.

Dorsett may have early signs of dementia and certainly seems to be showing concerning signs of depression. Diagnostically, there are a host of plausible etiologies, all of which are far more empirically-sound and likely at this point than chalking it up to CTE.

In your opinion does smoking cause cancer?

The extant literature, both epidemiological and bench science, is quite rich in describing increased risk of cancer amongst smokers.

The same absolutely cannot be said about mTBI, concussions, and the proposed notion of CTE.

Please consult the consensus summary from the world's leading neuroscience experts who participated in the International Conference on Concussion in Sports (Zurich) this past year for an explanation about the incomplete science and lack of an established link between concussions and CTE. The vast majority of research up through today paints much less of an alarmist picture about the role of mTBI, concussions, and the development of catastrophic neurodegenerative and neuropsychiatric outcomes.

 

[CalBear]

$200,000 earning a miniscule 3% interest over 39 years is worth $633,000 today.

If Dorsett even poorly invested (like above) only half of his career earnings (2M) he has close to 5M in the bank. He's set for life and that's only if he did poorly in his investments. If he invested the same earnings and earned 8% which was considered the norm he'd have over 20M in the bank.

I don't know in what world 8% is "considered the norm." That's what you can get from junk bonds right now (and other risky investments).

Anyway, I'm not going to get into an investment discussion on a football message board, except to say that the "they should be set for life" argument is incredibly naive.

 

[snitwitch]

leather helmets solves all

Probably not the way to go. Watch the rate of skull fractures and intracranial hemorrhages go up with leather helmets.

Look, I think we can all agree hitting one's head should be avoided. But, in my mind, it is completely irresponsible--and unethical--for UCLA to publicly speculate that Dorsett and others have CTE at this time. They are in the midst of trying to test/market/sell a ligand that detects proteinopathy in the brain that is being used FAs a proxy to speculate whether someone has CTE. But, so far the actual science does not support the theory, yet two groups of researchers have made a lot of money and fame by stoking fears about this stuff.

In the general population, it is not unusual for a 55-60-year old to experience memory loss.

In the general population, it is not unusual for 55+ yearl old men to experience depression (this is the most at-risk group for suicide in the U.S.)

In the general population, autopsy studies have revealed aggregation of tau on autopsy in otherwise perfectly healthy individuals who were cognitively and behaviorally intact. So the significance of tau in the brain remains unclear, and the association between repeated head trauma and this specific tauopathy is far from being established.

Dorsett may have early signs of dementia and certainly seems to be showing concerning signs of depression. Diagnostically, there are a host of plausible etiologies, all of which are far more empirically-sound and likely at this point than chalking it up to CTE.

In your opinion does smoking cause cancer?

The extant literature, both epidemiological and bench science, is quite rich in describing increased risk of cancer amongst smokers.

The same absolutely cannot be said about mTBI, concussions, and the proposed notion of CTE.

Please consult the consensus summary from the world's leading neuroscience experts who participated in the International Conference on Concussion in Sports (Zurich) this past year for an explanation about the incomplete science and lack of an established link between concussions and CTE. The vast majority of research up through today paints much less of an alarmist picture about the role of mTBI, concussions, and the development of catastrophic neurodegenerative and neuropsychiatric outcomes.

I recall seeing in that Frontline that there's already a lot of literature on CTE in boxers, soldiers, and jockeys. Is this true and if so, what does this literature say about sub-concussive blows to the head and CTE (and I guess, more importantly, about CTE causing things like dementia)

 

[cobalt_27]

leather helmets solves all

Probably not the way to go. Watch the rate of skull fractures and intracranial hemorrhages go up with leather helmets.

Look, I think we can all agree hitting one's head should be avoided. But, in my mind, it is completely irresponsible--and unethical--for UCLA to publicly speculate that Dorsett and others have CTE at this time. They are in the midst of trying to test/market/sell a ligand that detects proteinopathy in the brain that is being used FAs a proxy to speculate whether someone has CTE. But, so far the actual science does not support the theory, yet two groups of researchers have made a lot of money and fame by stoking fears about this stuff.

In the general population, it is not unusual for a 55-60-year old to experience memory loss.

In the general population, it is not unusual for 55+ yearl old men to experience depression (this is the most at-risk group for suicide in the U.S.)

In the general population, autopsy studies have revealed aggregation of tau on autopsy in otherwise perfectly healthy individuals who were cognitively and behaviorally intact. So the significance of tau in the brain remains unclear, and the association between repeated head trauma and this specific tauopathy is far from being established.

Dorsett may have early signs of dementia and certainly seems to be showing concerning signs of depression. Diagnostically, there are a host of plausible etiologies, all of which are far more empirically-sound and likely at this point than chalking it up to CTE.

In your opinion does smoking cause cancer?

The extant literature, both epidemiological and bench science, is quite rich in describing increased risk of cancer amongst smokers.

The same absolutely cannot be said about mTBI, concussions, and the proposed notion of CTE.

Please consult the consensus summary from the world's leading neuroscience experts who participated in the International Conference on Concussion in Sports (Zurich) this past year for an explanation about the incomplete science and lack of an established link between concussions and CTE. The vast majority of research up through today paints much less of an alarmist picture about the role of mTBI, concussions, and the development of catastrophic neurodegenerative and neuropsychiatric outcomes.

I recall seeing in that Frontline that there's already a lot of literature on CTE in boxers, soldiers, and jockeys. Is this true and if so, what does this literature say about sub-concussive blows to the head and CTE (and I guess, more importantly, about CTE causing things like dementia)

The literature is mixed in this regard. Indeed, Frontline was correct in reporting on some studies--mostly with boxers dating back to Martland (1928) and the concept of dementia pugilistica--that make an association demonstrating a link between repeated head trauma and cognitive and/or psychiatric disturbance later in life. The assumption that they had CTE is entirely unsupported, but it does provide a valid framework to hypothesize, speculate, and conduct methodologically-sound research, which is being done far removed from the McKee and Omalu groups. What Frontline did not discuss is that there have been far greater number of studies that failed to establish a link between repetitive head trauma and cognitive/psychiatric disturbance. Regarding veterans, a 2008 study by the Institute of Medicine Committee on Gulf War and Health found no association between mTBI and cognitive, psychiatric, and social functioning outcomes.

A recent mortality study (Baron, 2012) of over 3000 retired football players also is informative in that they found fewer neuropsychiatric deaths (e.g., self-harm, violence) than would be expected in the general population. Grant Iverson also published a meta-analysis on this just this past year and concluded the same thing. Of the 3000 retired players, there was no significant difference in mortality of former NFL players due to nervous system and sensory organ disease.

Bottom line, the concussion/TBI literature does not strongly support any link with long-term effects. Furthermore, the significance of tau on the brain remains unclear, not to mention there is no evidence from the recent McKee and Omalu studies that (a) tau accumulated as a result of repetitive head trauma vs other risk factors and (b) that protein deposition was what drove the psychiatric or cognitive problems. CTE is just being thrown out there as a post-hoc explanation without any support for this except that that's what Omalu and McKee want everyone to believe.

Again, those two groups are on an island with this stuff relative to the larger neuroscience community who are angered by how casually they make proclamations without sufficient evidence (and contradictory evidence) to make such assertions. And it is unethical to tell Tony Dorsett or anyone that they have CTE because...they simply don't know.

 

[snitwitch]

leather helmets solves all

Probably not the way to go. Watch the rate of skull fractures and intracranial hemorrhages go up with leather helmets.

Look, I think we can all agree hitting one's head should be avoided. But, in my mind, it is completely irresponsible--and unethical--for UCLA to publicly speculate that Dorsett and others have CTE at this time. They are in the midst of trying to test/market/sell a ligand that detects proteinopathy in the brain that is being used FAs a proxy to speculate whether someone has CTE. But, so far the actual science does not support the theory, yet two groups of researchers have made a lot of money and fame by stoking fears about this stuff.

In the general population, it is not unusual for a 55-60-year old to experience memory loss.

In the general population, it is not unusual for 55+ yearl old men to experience depression (this is the most at-risk group for suicide in the U.S.)

In the general population, autopsy studies have revealed aggregation of tau on autopsy in otherwise perfectly healthy individuals who were cognitively and behaviorally intact. So the significance of tau in the brain remains unclear, and the association between repeated head trauma and this specific tauopathy is far from being established.

Dorsett may have early signs of dementia and certainly seems to be showing concerning signs of depression. Diagnostically, there are a host of plausible etiologies, all of which are far more empirically-sound and likely at this point than chalking it up to CTE.

In your opinion does smoking cause cancer?

The extant literature, both epidemiological and bench science, is quite rich in describing increased risk of cancer amongst smokers.

The same absolutely cannot be said about mTBI, concussions, and the proposed notion of CTE.

Please consult the consensus summary from the world's leading neuroscience experts who participated in the International Conference on Concussion in Sports (Zurich) this past year for an explanation about the incomplete science and lack of an established link between concussions and CTE. The vast majority of research up through today paints much less of an alarmist picture about the role of mTBI, concussions, and the development of catastrophic neurodegenerative and neuropsychiatric outcomes.

I recall seeing in that Frontline that there's already a lot of literature on CTE in boxers, soldiers, and jockeys. Is this true and if so, what does this literature say about sub-concussive blows to the head and CTE (and I guess, more importantly, about CTE causing things like dementia)

The literature is mixed in this regard. Indeed, Frontline was correct in reporting on some studies--mostly with boxers dating back to Martland (1928) and the concept of dementia pugilistica--that make an association demonstrating a link between repeated head trauma and cognitive and/or psychiatric disturbance later in life. The assumption that they had CTE is entirely unsupported, but it does provide a valid framework to hypothesize, speculate, and conduct methodologically-sound research, which is being done far removed from the McKee and Omalu groups. What Frontline did not discuss is that there have been far greater number of studies that failed to establish a link between repetitive head trauma and cognitive/psychiatric disturbance. Regarding veterans, a 2008 study by the Institute of Medicine Committee on Gulf War and Health found no association between mTBI and cognitive, psychiatric, and social functioning outcomes.

A recent mortality study (Baron, 2012) of over 3000 retired football players also is informative in that they found fewer neuropsychiatric deaths (e.g., self-harm, violence) than would be expected in the general population. Grant Iverson also published a meta-analysis on this just this past year and concluded the same thing. Of the 3000 retired players, there was no significant difference in mortality of former NFL players due to nervous system and sensory organ disease.

Bottom line, the concussion/TBI literature does not strongly support any link with long-term effects. Furthermore, the significance of tau on the brain remains unclear, not to mention there is no evidence from the recent McKee and Omalu studies that (a) tau accumulated as a result of repetitive head trauma vs other risk factors and (b) that protein deposition was what drove the psychiatric or cognitive problems. CTE is just being thrown out there as a post-hoc explanation without any support for this except that that's what Omalu and McKee want everyone to believe.

Again, those two groups are on an island with this stuff relative to the larger neuroscience community who are angered by how casually they make proclamations without sufficient evidence (and contradictory evidence) to make such assertions. And it is unethical to tell Tony Dorsett or anyone that they have CTE because...they simply don't know.

Thanks for the informative response!

I still don't think I'm gonna let my kid play football. Better safe than sorry. I mean, cigarettes were known as 'coffin nails' years before scientists determined there was a link between them and lung cancer.

 

[first round bust]

leather helmets solves all

Probably not the way to go. Watch the rate of skull fractures and intracranial hemorrhages go up with leather helmets.

Look, I think we can all agree hitting one's head should be avoided. But, in my mind, it is completely irresponsible--and unethical--for UCLA to publicly speculate that Dorsett and others have CTE at this time. They are in the midst of trying to test/market/sell a ligand that detects proteinopathy in the brain that is being used FAs a proxy to speculate whether someone has CTE. But, so far the actual science does not support the theory, yet two groups of researchers have made a lot of money and fame by stoking fears about this stuff.

In the general population, it is not unusual for a 55-60-year old to experience memory loss.

In the general population, it is not unusual for 55+ yearl old men to experience depression (this is the most at-risk group for suicide in the U.S.)

In the general population, autopsy studies have revealed aggregation of tau on autopsy in otherwise perfectly healthy individuals who were cognitively and behaviorally intact. So the significance of tau in the brain remains unclear, and the association between repeated head trauma and this specific tauopathy is far from being established.

Dorsett may have early signs of dementia and certainly seems to be showing concerning signs of depression. Diagnostically, there are a host of plausible etiologies, all of which are far more empirically-sound and likely at this point than chalking it up to CTE.

It should be a major red flag that the NFL's condition for the ~$800 million settlement was that they did not have to reveal the results of their research on head injuries, the data of which covered a period of many years. With the incomplete information that we have in front of us right now as is, if I was forced to bet on whether or not playing pro football significantly increases the chances of dementia-type conditions, I would bet yes.

 

[cobalt_27]

leather helmets solves all

Probably not the way to go. Watch the rate of skull fractures and intracranial hemorrhages go up with leather helmets.

Look, I think we can all agree hitting one's head should be avoided. But, in my mind, it is completely irresponsible--and unethical--for UCLA to publicly speculate that Dorsett and others have CTE at this time. They are in the midst of trying to test/market/sell a ligand that detects proteinopathy in the brain that is being used FAs a proxy to speculate whether someone has CTE. But, so far the actual science does not support the theory, yet two groups of researchers have made a lot of money and fame by stoking fears about this stuff.

In the general population, it is not unusual for a 55-60-year old to experience memory loss.

In the general population, it is not unusual for 55+ yearl old men to experience depression (this is the most at-risk group for suicide in the U.S.)

In the general population, autopsy studies have revealed aggregation of tau on autopsy in otherwise perfectly healthy individuals who were cognitively and behaviorally intact. So the significance of tau in the brain remains unclear, and the association between repeated head trauma and this specific tauopathy is far from being established.

Dorsett may have early signs of dementia and certainly seems to be showing concerning signs of depression. Diagnostically, there are a host of plausible etiologies, all of which are far more empirically-sound and likely at this point than chalking it up to CTE.

In your opinion does smoking cause cancer?

The extant literature, both epidemiological and bench science, is quite rich in describing increased risk of cancer amongst smokers.

The same absolutely cannot be said about mTBI, concussions, and the proposed notion of CTE.

Please consult the consensus summary from the world's leading neuroscience experts who participated in the International Conference on Concussion in Sports (Zurich) this past year for an explanation about the incomplete science and lack of an established link between concussions and CTE. The vast majority of research up through today paints much less of an alarmist picture about the role of mTBI, concussions, and the development of catastrophic neurodegenerative and neuropsychiatric outcomes.

I recall seeing in that Frontline that there's already a lot of literature on CTE in boxers, soldiers, and jockeys. Is this true and if so, what does this literature say about sub-concussive blows to the head and CTE (and I guess, more importantly, about CTE causing things like dementia)

The literature is mixed in this regard. Indeed, Frontline was correct in reporting on some studies--mostly with boxers dating back to Martland (1928) and the concept of dementia pugilistica--that make an association demonstrating a link between repeated head trauma and cognitive and/or psychiatric disturbance later in life. The assumption that they had CTE is entirely unsupported, but it does provide a valid framework to hypothesize, speculate, and conduct methodologically-sound research, which is being done far removed from the McKee and Omalu groups. What Frontline did not discuss is that there have been far greater number of studies that failed to establish a link between repetitive head trauma and cognitive/psychiatric disturbance. Regarding veterans, a 2008 study by the Institute of Medicine Committee on Gulf War and Health found no association between mTBI and cognitive, psychiatric, and social functioning outcomes.

A recent mortality study (Baron, 2012) of over 3000 retired football players also is informative in that they found fewer neuropsychiatric deaths (e.g., self-harm, violence) than would be expected in the general population. Grant Iverson also published a meta-analysis on this just this past year and concluded the same thing. Of the 3000 retired players, there was no significant difference in mortality of former NFL players due to nervous system and sensory organ disease.

Bottom line, the concussion/TBI literature does not strongly support any link with long-term effects. Furthermore, the significance of tau on the brain remains unclear, not to mention there is no evidence from the recent McKee and Omalu studies that (a) tau accumulated as a result of repetitive head trauma vs other risk factors and (b) that protein deposition was what drove the psychiatric or cognitive problems. CTE is just being thrown out there as a post-hoc explanation without any support for this except that that's what Omalu and McKee want everyone to believe.

Again, those two groups are on an island with this stuff relative to the larger neuroscience community who are angered by how casually they make proclamations without sufficient evidence (and contradictory evidence) to make such assertions. And it is unethical to tell Tony Dorsett or anyone that they have CTE because...they simply don't know.

Thanks for the informative response!

I still don't think I'm gonna let my kid play football. Better safe than sorry. I mean, cigarettes were known as 'coffin nails' years before scientists determined there was a link between them and lung cancer.

I'm not letting my kid play football either! I'm more concerned about spine and neck injuries, but gosh...at minimum, I'd like to reduce my kid's exposure to head injuries, regardless of whether CTE represents a real or imagined risk.

 

[cobalt_27]

leather helmets solves all

Probably not the way to go. Watch the rate of skull fractures and intracranial hemorrhages go up with leather helmets.

Look, I think we can all agree hitting one's head should be avoided. But, in my mind, it is completely irresponsible--and unethical--for UCLA to publicly speculate that Dorsett and others have CTE at this time. They are in the midst of trying to test/market/sell a ligand that detects proteinopathy in the brain that is being used FAs a proxy to speculate whether someone has CTE. But, so far the actual science does not support the theory, yet two groups of researchers have made a lot of money and fame by stoking fears about this stuff.

In the general population, it is not unusual for a 55-60-year old to experience memory loss.

In the general population, it is not unusual for 55+ yearl old men to experience depression (this is the most at-risk group for suicide in the U.S.)

In the general population, autopsy studies have revealed aggregation of tau on autopsy in otherwise perfectly healthy individuals who were cognitively and behaviorally intact. So the significance of tau in the brain remains unclear, and the association between repeated head trauma and this specific tauopathy is far from being established.

Dorsett may have early signs of dementia and certainly seems to be showing concerning signs of depression. Diagnostically, there are a host of plausible etiologies, all of which are far more empirically-sound and likely at this point than chalking it up to CTE.

It should be a major red flag that the NFL's condition for the ~$800 million settlement was that they did not have to reveal the results of their research on head injuries, the data of which covered a period of many years. With the incomplete information that we have in front of us right now as is, if I was forced to bet on whether or not playing pro football significantly increases the chances of dementia-type conditions, I would bet yes.

Can you point me to a link explaining this aspect of the litigation agreement? My understanding of how this resolved is fuzzy at best, and google has not been my friend in this regard.

 

[first round bust]

leather helmets solves all

Probably not the way to go. Watch the rate of skull fractures and intracranial hemorrhages go up with leather helmets.

Look, I think we can all agree hitting one's head should be avoided. But, in my mind, it is completely irresponsible--and unethical--for UCLA to publicly speculate that Dorsett and others have CTE at this time. They are in the midst of trying to test/market/sell a ligand that detects proteinopathy in the brain that is being used FAs a proxy to speculate whether someone has CTE. But, so far the actual science does not support the theory, yet two groups of researchers have made a lot of money and fame by stoking fears about this stuff.

In the general population, it is not unusual for a 55-60-year old to experience memory loss.

In the general population, it is not unusual for 55+ yearl old men to experience depression (this is the most at-risk group for suicide in the U.S.)

In the general population, autopsy studies have revealed aggregation of tau on autopsy in otherwise perfectly healthy individuals who were cognitively and behaviorally intact. So the significance of tau in the brain remains unclear, and the association between repeated head trauma and this specific tauopathy is far from being established.

Dorsett may have early signs of dementia and certainly seems to be showing concerning signs of depression. Diagnostically, there are a host of plausible etiologies, all of which are far more empirically-sound and likely at this point than chalking it up to CTE.

It should be a major red flag that the NFL's condition for the ~$800 million settlement was that they did not have to reveal the results of their research on head injuries, the data of which covered a period of many years. With the incomplete information that we have in front of us right now as is, if I was forced to bet on whether or not playing pro football significantly increases the chances of dementia-type conditions, I would bet yes.

Can you point me to a link explaining this aspect of the litigation agreement? My understanding of how this resolved is fuzzy at best, and google has not been my friend in this regard.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/news/20130829/nfl-concussion-lawsuit-settlement-player-reaction-kevin-mawae/

But the settlement is a setback for players in the long run, Mawae said, because it keeps the NFL from having to release information in court about what it knew in regards to the connection between brain injuries and football, and when it knew it. And that opportunity lost represents a discovery process that can't have a dollar value placed upon it.

"Everybody had been asking me what was going to happen with the lawsuit, and I've said all along they're going to settle it,'' said Mawae, who retired after the 2009 season.

"Because in the end, settling it for however much money is a whole lot better for the league than giving up everything they have as far as information and potentially harming the shield for good. There's too much potential for information that could have done damage to the NFL, and it's better to just pay it off with $765 million, plus court costs.''