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Doug Flutie (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter TheWheel
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stevegamer
Footballguy
CFL Hall of Fame, yes.
BC hall of Fame (or whatever they might have), Yes.
Canton, not a chance - even though it's not NFL-specific in it's name..
BC hall of Fame (or whatever they might have), Yes.
Canton, not a chance - even though it's not NFL-specific in it's name..
I always thought he was a nice player and when he came back to the NFL, there was a short honeymoon period, followed by backlash for the "Flutie Flakes"-type celebrity. I think he got the short end of the stick early on in his career and applaud him for what he did in the CFL and making it back to the NFL to post a couple of nice years...but HOFer...no. Moon also did a similar thing, but when he came back he sustained his greatness for years (part of that is b/c he came back at an earlier age, but if Moon retires at 35, I am not sure whether we would think he is a HOFer. I understand the HOF is not NFL specific, but for all intensive purposes the CFL is the minor leagues and anyone that tells you different is wrong.
Now, if we see a few great NFL prospects spurn the NFL from the start, and go one to have great CFL careers, we have to reconsider, but in the end, they all come back to the NFL if they can.
Now, if we see a few great NFL prospects spurn the NFL from the start, and go one to have great CFL careers, we have to reconsider, but in the end, they all come back to the NFL if they can.
Tau837
Footballguy
I just want to clarify something.Moon didn't reach the NFL until he was 28. IMO it is fair to say discrimination against black QBs played a role in that. Once he reached the NFL, he dominated. It is reasonable to think that, if not for that discrimination, Moon could have challenged the all time QB records... as it was, he retired in the top 4 in passing yards and passing TDs.In contrast, Flutie played his first pro season in the USFL and then came to the NFL for 4 seasons and was below average at best. The fact that he dominated the CFL after that does not mean he got the "short end of the stick" in the NFL. He didn't prove himself in the NFL when given the opportunity.Apples and oranges.I agree with you that Flutie is not a HOFer.
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FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
I really, really don't understand why this is even a question.
No, no, a million times no, and it's not even close.
In all seriousness, if Doug Flutie is a hall of famer, than 60% of starting NFL quarterbacks are hall of famers.
If Carson Palmer retired right now, is he a hall of famer? Mark Brunell? Drew Bledsoe? Brian Griese? Daunte Culpepper? Jake Delhomme? Billy Volek? Aaron Brooks? These guys aren't behind Flutie in what they've accomplished on an actual NFL level.
No, no, a million times no, and it's not even close.
In all seriousness, if Doug Flutie is a hall of famer, than 60% of starting NFL quarterbacks are hall of famers.
If Carson Palmer retired right now, is he a hall of famer? Mark Brunell? Drew Bledsoe? Brian Griese? Daunte Culpepper? Jake Delhomme? Billy Volek? Aaron Brooks? These guys aren't behind Flutie in what they've accomplished on an actual NFL level.
Andy Herron
Footballguy
No.
Nice story but not a HOFer by any stretch.
Nice story but not a HOFer by any stretch.
Andy Herron
Footballguy
Drew Bledsoe doesn't belong in this group.He may actually have an outside shot of getting in someday just by his sheer numbers.He was pretty prolific from early in his career thru his prime.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Where is the "No Friggin' Way in Hell" option?
Boston
Footballguy
Gotta separate the college career from the NFL. He's an all-time great college QB who was as exciting a player as there ever was at that level (he's also on the very short list of best CFL players ever as well). While he had some fantastic moments in the NFL he's not even remotely close to being considered a Hall-of-Famer.
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I think you miss the 3 leagues thing and that it's pro football hall of fame not NFL hall of fame.I'm not saying he gets in, your reply is all NFLers.I do think Flutie was eons better than Volek, Brooks, or Daunte(as of now).Volek...cmonBrooks locked onto WRs and somehow completed the ball. He didn't get another job and one might figure with his stats in NO, he should have. There were other personal or moral issues but, if you're good enough, don't teams ignore them?Daunte, good for a too short or great for too short. Without looking I'd guess he's been not good as long as he's been good/great.Delhomme hasn't done anything exciting to me, nor has Brunell. Well I guess the NFLE aspect or Brunell going from backup to starter via league expansion but they're very unexciting players to me.I don't get the Palmer comparison at all. Carson is young and it's too early to tell, but he may be a HOFer. He may be. When healthy, he's a top 10 QB that sometimes is top 3. I really think he's fantastic and in time has a good shot. Career not done: His WR has been arrested a slew of times and that WR could be the main one fairly quickly. His team has gotten rid of a franchise tackle each of the last two years which is almost unheard of in the NFL. He's been fortunate to throw to very good WRs, will he always have that quality at WR? Here's another point in his favor. Chad Johnson Ocho Cinco was a top WR with him and stunk without him. Many expect Ocho will do fairly well this year......because of Palmer. That too sounds like a HOFer. Makes others better, top 10 whenever healthy etc. Palmer's got alot going for him if he keeps up this pace. He'll have to throw for about 4k this year.
On The Rocks
Footballguy
On The Rocks
Footballguy
Yes [ 8 ] [18.60%]No [ 34 ] [79.07%] Push [ 1 ] [2.33%]
HellToupee
Footballguy
maybe if there is a wing in the HOF for players that crossed the strike lines
Tau837
Footballguy
Yes, it's called the Pro Football Hall of Fame, not the NFL Hall of Fame. It seems in pointing that out that you are implying that Flutie could get in based largely on his accomplishments outside of the NFL. That won't happen.Every person in the HOF is in because of accomplishments in the NFL or one of the leagues that merged with the NFL (AFL and AAFC). No players have ever been inducted because of accomplishments in the CFL, USFL, Arena League, or any other league that is not part of the NFL's heritage.People like to cite Warren Moon as an example that justifies that it's not just based on the NFL. Warren Moon excelled in the CFL, but he finished his NFL career in the top 4 all time in major NFL passing statistics, and he made 9 NFL Pro Bowls. He got in based on his NFL career, not the combination of his NFL and CFL accomplishments.If it were true that non-NFL accomplishments matter, there would be examples of players making it because of those accomplishments. Herschel Walker is a good example. He dominated the USFL. If that counted for HOF worthiness, he'd be a shoo in. As it is, he will likely never get strong consideration because he did not do enough in the NFL.
I didn't imply anything I just think it's interesting.When Moon was going into the HOF it was often written about his CFL exploits right along with his NFL success. I don't think you separate them now.
I do think Herschel is one of the best RBs I've ever seen.
I think the pro football hall of fame has a sort of understood NFL base rule wherein if you do well in the NFL, they'll discuss what else you did for inclusion. I don't necessarily think that's right though. (To throw another league out there) I'd like to hear about the greatest australian football player.
I'm not saying Flutie belongs in but I strongly disagree that foreigners(or those that play in foreign leagues) shouldn't be included.
I think the NBA or pro basketball hall of fame made a ridiculous mistake not including Oscar in it. Aside from being an awesome player, best scorer ever, I remember just tons and tons of compliments from Dream Teamers about him. (I'm going to guess here) If Jordan, Bird, Ewing, Akeem and Magic are praising you for your great player; if people all over the world knew how awesome he was....yeah he should be in.
Here's just a snapshot of him from Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Schmidt
I only recall him having maybe one other good(noteworthy) player on his team at times so he deserves an enormous amount of credit for all that.
Back to NFL, I do not want the NFL to have such a blight. I want the other leagues to be seriously considered and "digested".
I can't recall who it is but one radio announcer every year talks about some australian kicker or punter booting the ball out of the stadium. Every time I hear that I'm
. So let's hear all the stories and stats and then decide. That's how I feel.Nothing implied earlier
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Tau837
Footballguy
His CFL accomplishments were always and probably always will be discussed. However, I don't believe they had anything to do with his HOF induction.
I suppose non-NFL accomplishment may be discussed, but I do not believe any player has made it who would not have made it based solely upon NFL accomplishments.
Australian rules football is a different game. Putting players from that sport in the same HOF as NFL players makes about as much sense as putting soccer players in there. There are no foreign leagues that make sense to include IMO.
Matt Waldman
Footballguy
Flutie is a fantastic example of a "what if" player:
1. What if he were taller?
2. What if NFL coaches/front office types took him more seriously early in his career?
3. What if he didn't have to jump to the CFL to get a shot to start?
Rob Johnson was never seriously in the conversation in Buffalo when it came to talent. He never beat out Flutie fair and square. Flutie was just not a player NFL coaches felt comfortable getting behind as their starter. If Flutie had Rob Johnson's height, he would have been a top-5 draft pick out of college. He's an example of a player with amazing football instincts and intellect, but just a little too short for coaches to take seriously. The player most like him in the NFL today is Drew Brees, who is just tall enough - even so, Brees encountered plenty of criticism by media types that he was just too small and lacking necessary arm strength to be a starter. Now he's arguably one of the three best QBs in the league.
I don't think Flutie is a HOFer, but he possessed the intangibles and mental skills on a HOF level. You have to get the opportunities and stats at the highest level to earn the votes for Canton.
Great player and in some ways legendary for what he did from college through the end of his NFL career, but not great by Canton standards. That's ok though. He won't be forgotten.
1. What if he were taller?
2. What if NFL coaches/front office types took him more seriously early in his career?
3. What if he didn't have to jump to the CFL to get a shot to start?
Rob Johnson was never seriously in the conversation in Buffalo when it came to talent. He never beat out Flutie fair and square. Flutie was just not a player NFL coaches felt comfortable getting behind as their starter. If Flutie had Rob Johnson's height, he would have been a top-5 draft pick out of college. He's an example of a player with amazing football instincts and intellect, but just a little too short for coaches to take seriously. The player most like him in the NFL today is Drew Brees, who is just tall enough - even so, Brees encountered plenty of criticism by media types that he was just too small and lacking necessary arm strength to be a starter. Now he's arguably one of the three best QBs in the league.
I don't think Flutie is a HOFer, but he possessed the intangibles and mental skills on a HOF level. You have to get the opportunities and stats at the highest level to earn the votes for Canton.
Great player and in some ways legendary for what he did from college through the end of his NFL career, but not great by Canton standards. That's ok though. He won't be forgotten.
well said
Tau837
Footballguy
I don't buy this. His first NFL season he joined the Bears in October 1986. Coming in midseason, he was behind McMahon, Tomczak, and Fuller and started 1 game. That does not seem unreasonable.He was traded to New England in October 1987. He started 1 game during the strike, which no doubt did not help him with his NFL teammates when the strike ended. And again, he arrived during the season, so it is not unreasonable that he was behind Grogan and Eason when the strike was over.Then in 1988 he started 9 games and played in 11. The real problem IMO is that his QB rating that season was 63.3... that is really awful. Then he started 3 games in 1989 and played in 5... and posted a 46.6 QB rating. I don't think anyone should really be surprised that he was out of the NFL in 1990, and I certainly wouldn't interpret that as him not being taken seriously or given a chance.
Brees is two inches taller and 30 lbs. heavier than Flutie (using PFR data). I agree that NFL people can get caught up in certain measurables, but it is true that a 5'10" QB is at a disadvantage compared to taller QBs. Has there ever been an above average QB in the NFL who was 5'10" or shorter?
Marvin88
Footballguy
He wouldn't even be College Hall of Fame worthy if not for the lucky upchuck against Miami which led to a cake bowl for the national title. If the BCS existed then, BC would have been dusted in their bowl game and may not have even qualified for the title game with their cupcake schedule that year.
Marvin88
Footballguy
What is he actually had talent?
obxlegends
Footballguy
bcr8f
Footballguy
Or the "put down that crack pipe...what were you askin' again?"
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
Flutie and Eddie LeBaron.A couple of pre-modern era tailback/quarterbacks (Benny Friedman and Bill Dudley) are in the HOF and are 5'10, but that's not what you're looking for. Here are the best 5'10 or shorter QBs in NFL history
oug FlutieEddie LeBaronFrank FilchockBob MonnettKeith MolesworthFrankie AlbertBob CeleriGlenn PresnellGene RonzaniHarry NewmanAlbie ReiszFoster WatkinsYoung BusseyEddie Miller5'11:Sonny Jurgensen (HOF)Arnie Herber (HOF)Bob BerryPat HadenJim FinksRay MalloufPaul GovernaliEd HargettTommy O'ConnellMarlin Briscoe (who like Flutie, did not get a shot)Seneca Wallace6'0:Fran TarkentonLen DawsonY.A. TittleDrew BreesSid LuckmanJoe TheismannBilly KilmerBill NelsenJohnny LujackMichael VickRodney PeeteGeorge RattermanPaul ChristmanAce ParkerTy DetmerJeff KempGary Cuozzo
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
bcr8f
Footballguy
It may be called that but show me where that was the original intention. We have the World Series too but Japan was never meant to be included.
Matt Waldman
Footballguy
Just Win Baby said:I don't buy this. His first NFL season he joined the Bears in October 1986. Coming in midseason, he was behind McMahon, Tomczak, and Fuller and started 1 game. That does not seem unreasonable. It's been well-documented that Ditka didn't want Flutie in the same way Glanville didn't want Favre and made a fool out himself in front of the local media about the Favre pick. Considering Glanville is considered a humorous part of NFL history, and if he weren't a great TE, Ditka would only be known for riding Buddy Ryan's coattails and trading away his draft for Ricky Williams. So yes, I believe that Ditka buried Flutie on the bench. Plus, the Bears won a SB in '85 so of course Flutie would be buried on the depth chart. This team was a defense/running game team that needed a game manager who knew the offense. Obviously Mike Tomczak and Fuller certainly had better careers than FlutieMatt Waldman said:He was traded to New England in October 1987. He started 1 game during the strike, which no doubt did not help him with his NFL teammates when the strike ended. And again, he arrived during the season, so it is not unreasonable that he was behind Grogan and Eason when the strike was over. Once again, Raymond Berry didn't like him either. If you're going to rate the first two years of a QBs career you might as well have put so-so starters over guys like Bradshaw, Elway, Favre, McNabb, Brees, Moon, and that's just the top of the list.
Then in 1988 he started 9 games and played in 11. The real problem IMO is that his QB rating that season was 63.3... that is really awful. Then he started 3 games in 1989 and played in 5... and posted a 46.6 QB rating. I don't think anyone should really be surprised that he was out of the NFL in 1990, and I certainly wouldn't interpret that as him not being taken seriously or given a chance. In '89 he had a total of two attempts in two of those games he "played," lost one of his three starts to a very good Bills team, beat a playoff caliber Houston team, and lost to the Falcons by one point. In '88 he also had a 4 TD game against the Bears and led the team to a 7-4 record as a starter. His stats were bad, but considering he didn't have nearly the attempts most young QBs get in their first three two years I'm not buying your argument, either.
Brees is two inches taller and 30 lbs. heavier than Flutie (using PFR data). I agree that NFL people can get caught up in certain measurables, but it is true that a 5'10" QB is at a disadvantage compared to taller QBs. Has there ever been an above average QB in the NFL who was 5'10" or shorter?Matt Waldman said:
David Yudkin
Footballguy
I think Flutie was a great all around football player through the various stages he played in, but his NFL career was really not much to write home about. His lifetime record was 38-28 (also was 0-2 in the post season), which percentage wise is fine but not a lot of wins.
His best year was ranking 10th in passing yards (he did that twice), 10th in passing TD once, and 9th in passer rating once. That's it for Top 10 rankings. He had 3K passing yards only twice and 20 passing TD once. There are 120 QBs with more career passing yards.
His stats are similar to Erik Kramer. If not for Flutie's CFL numbers, would we even be having this discussion?
His best year was ranking 10th in passing yards (he did that twice), 10th in passing TD once, and 9th in passer rating once. That's it for Top 10 rankings. He had 3K passing yards only twice and 20 passing TD once. There are 120 QBs with more career passing yards.
His stats are similar to Erik Kramer. If not for Flutie's CFL numbers, would we even be having this discussion?
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Wadsworth
Footballguy
Rob Johnson played pretty well in that game, certainly well enough to win. This thread is silly. Flutie never even had a single season with HoF type production much less an entire career.
yes
He he is the poster child for those told they couldn't.....................yet did.
He he is the poster child for those told they couldn't.....................yet did.
Tau837
Footballguy
At the time Flutie left the NFL for the CFL, these were his career NFL statistics:14 startsJust Win Baby said:I don't buy this. His first NFL season he joined the Bears in October 1986. Coming in midseason, he was behind McMahon, Tomczak, and Fuller and started 1 game. That does not seem unreasonable. It's been well-documented that Ditka didn't want Flutie in the same way Glanville didn't want Favre and made a fool out himself in front of the local media about the Favre pick. Considering Glanville is considered a humorous part of NFL history, and if he weren't a great TE, Ditka would only be known for riding Buddy Ryan's coattails and trading away his draft for Ricky Williams. So yes, I believe that Ditka buried Flutie on the bench. Plus, the Bears won a SB in '85 so of course Flutie would be buried on the depth chart. This team was a defense/running game team that needed a game manager who knew the offense. Obviously Mike Tomczak and Fuller certainly had better careers than FlutieMatt Waldman said:He was traded to New England in October 1987. He started 1 game during the strike, which no doubt did not help him with his NFL teammates when the strike ended. And again, he arrived during the season, so it is not unreasonable that he was behind Grogan and Eason when the strike was over. Once again, Raymond Berry didn't like him either. If you're going to rate the first two years of a QBs career you might as well have put so-so starters over guys like Bradshaw, Elway, Favre, McNabb, Brees, Moon, and that's just the top of the list.
Then in 1988 he started 9 games and played in 11. The real problem IMO is that his QB rating that season was 63.3... that is really awful. Then he started 3 games in 1989 and played in 5... and posted a 46.6 QB rating. I don't think anyone should really be surprised that he was out of the NFL in 1990, and I certainly wouldn't interpret that as him not being taken seriously or given a chance. In '89 he had a total of two attempts in two of those games he "played," lost one of his three starts to a very good Bills team, beat a playoff caliber Houston team, and lost to the Falcons by one point. In '88 he also had a 4 TD game against the Bears and led the team to a 7-4 record as a starter. His stats were bad, but considering he didn't have nearly the attempts most young QBs get in their first three two years I'm not buying your argument, either.
Brees is two inches taller and 30 lbs. heavier than Flutie (using PFR data). I agree that NFL people can get caught up in certain measurables, but it is true that a 5'10" QB is at a disadvantage compared to taller QBs. Has there ever been an above average QB in the NFL who was 5'10" or shorter?Matt Waldman said:
22 games played
181/366 (49.4%)
2402 passing yards (6.56 ypa)
15 TDs
16 interceptions
25 sacks (6.8%)
66.1 QB rating
75/388/2 rushing
9 fumbles
What exactly about those numbers would suggest that he should have gotten more of an opportunity?
the rover
Footballguy
except for the losing part.
Rob Johnson left the field with the lead and deserved to win a road game against a team that hadn't lost at home all year and nearly went on to win the Super Bowl. He wasn't covering kicks so I have no idea why people even think of pinning the loss on him.Flutie is one of the biggest tools to ever play in the NFL and has no business in the Hall of Fame unless he buys a ticket like everyone else. Benching him in that game is one of the best decisions Wade Phillips ever made in his career.
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To those who are arguing that Canton is the Pro football hall of fame not the NFL hall of fame:
The most prolific passer in pro football history for yards is not Brett Favre, but rather Damon Allen (Marcus' brother). Allen is a career CFL QB and will never get a sniff at Canton. Despite being the Pro football hall of fame, CFL players get no looks from Canton whatsoever.
Flutie is actually ranked 6th all time for all-time professional passing yardage but didn't do enough in the NFL to warrant a look.
From a semantics point of view, it's not right. From a talent point of view, I have to agree.
The most prolific passer in pro football history for yards is not Brett Favre, but rather Damon Allen (Marcus' brother). Allen is a career CFL QB and will never get a sniff at Canton. Despite being the Pro football hall of fame, CFL players get no looks from Canton whatsoever.
Flutie is actually ranked 6th all time for all-time professional passing yardage but didn't do enough in the NFL to warrant a look.
From a semantics point of view, it's not right. From a talent point of view, I have to agree.
Tau837
Footballguy
It is the right call not only from a talent point of view, but from a competition point of view... both competition for accomplishments (e.g., in comparison to other CFL players) and competition against opposing offenses/defenses, which are clearly not as good as NFL offenses/defenses.
PatsWillWin
Footballguy
There is one. It's in Canton.
Wadsworth
Footballguy
Not to split hairs but isn't it the PRO Football HoF in Canton, not the Football HoF?
dgreen
Footballguy
That's not saying much.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
It's funny how people forget that Johnson had led them down to a field for the go-ahead FG with seconds to play in the playoff game. Had the Music City Miracle not happened, Johnson would have been lauded for this great drive at the end of that game, but since special teams lost them the game, it is forgotten, and Flutie not playing over Johnson is now a bad decision.Being a CFL Fan and a Fan of Flutie, I'd probably agree with that.I'm not sure he has done enough at the NFL level to really fit the bill as a hall of Famer. If he does get in, it will likely be because of that hail Mary pass he made in College. I dont consider that to be a qualifier, but it was one of the best plays ever in the history of College football.
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