[Dynasty] Patoons Rookie Rankings (1 Viewer)

[Patoons]

I recently posted my dynasty WR rookie rankings. See: http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=470934

I've started a blog inspired by Fear and Loathing's posts called retired rookie. I usually try to update about once per day.

Here are my rookie rankings (ppr). They've changed slightly from my rookie rankings post per my blog. I'd love to get some commentary going:

1. Michael Crabtree, WR, SF

Player you can build your dynasty team around. Short-term the QB situation in SF isn't ideal, but neither was the case with Fitzgerald in ARZ or Calvin in DET. Granted Calvin and Fitz are different beasts, but Crabtree is shortly behind.

2. Knowshon Moreno, RB, DEN

With no QB, he'll be the safety valve out of the backfield in Denver. McDaniels drafted him because he said he was a once and a lifetime player. I agree. He'll be a focal point from day one. If only they had a QB.

3. Chris Wells, RB, ARZ

Hasn't really had to catch out of the backfield which hurts his PPR value a bit, but he better learn because I'm not sure they'll rely on Hightower in the flats or on screens. This kid's got boom/bust written all over him. Despite the fact that he's gone to RB hell in Arizona, he's got the wide receivers to take the pressure off of him and hopefully get a little room to work. BOOM!

4. Hakeem Nicks, WR, NYG

Love the kid's hands. Solid size, great opportunity. Should see the field from day one. Think he can be a Boldin type of player. Not concerned that he's running with the 3rd team - too early.

5. Percy Harvin, WR, MIN

Harvin could be a huge bust. He's more of a tweener and never has had a real position. If he's used like a Reggie Bush, he'll be HUGE. Love his potential, but it could be all for naught as Minnesota's QB situation is a disaster. If they use him like they're saying in open space -- look out!

6. Kenny Britt, WR, TEN

This draft for me is a "Big 3" in terms of WRs. He's got Bowe rookie season written all over him. I know some people are down on him with the drops, but I've seen enough of him to think he'll be the main man in Tennessee.

7. Donald Brown, RB, IND

Hated Addai coming out of LSU and he's proved me wrong thus far. Last year he was a bit beat up and I don't think it gets much better for him. This kid could be PPR gold if he pans out. Great out of the backfield and could be a great back in Peyton's system.

8. Shonn Greene, RB, NYJ

As a Jet fan, loved the pick. A nice bowling ball to go with Washington. Ryan will pound the ball and the Jet's offensive line has gelled together nicely and should pave the way for Greene. Jones doesn't seem to be a part of the new regime's plans and he's getting up there in age.

9. Mark Sanchez, QB, NYJ

The Jets drafted him to be the franchise QB. First QB. He doesn't have many receivers, but should be ok with Keller, Cotchery and Washington as options. I like him a bit more than Stafford soley based on the team the Jets have constructed. He doesn't necessarily need to be built around because the defense is already solid and he has 3 playmakers to work with already.



10. Matt Stafford, QB, DET

Should be a nice hookup connection with Calvin for years. Adding Pettigrew in there who is an underrated receiving option is nice as well.



11. Jeremy Maclin, WR, PHI

Speed's all over the place in Philly. Should be a nice speedy complement to Desean Jackson. McNabb's now got a ton of weapons. The kid's nice and fluid on the field and should be a nice player.



12. LeSean McCoy, RB, PHI

Not much of a fan of McCoy due to his size, but you can't ignore where he was drafted. He could easily be the replacement for Westy in a few years and maybe even sooner with the recent injury, which is the only reason I have him this high. I'm skeptical of his ability on the next level; his potential carries the value for me here.



13. Brian Robiskie, WR, CLE

He'll be Mangini's Cotchery in Cleveland. Solid possession guy who should be relatively productive. As long as Braylon stays in CLE, he should be fine.



14. Darrius Heyward-Bey, WR, OAK

Similar to McCoy, the only reason I have him here is potential. He's a track star who was drafted into the land of make believe. He could easily blow up this rankings ultimately because he's ceiling is so high, but to me he wreaks of Troy Williamson.



15. Andre Brown, RB, NYG

Underachiever at NC State and highly touted coming out of high school. Seems to have been underutilized in college and could easily have a better NFL career than college career. If he can stay healthy (which is somewhat of a concern), he could take over for Jacobs or even be the complement there.



16. Jarrett Dillard, WR, JAX

Definitely a risk this early, but the opportunity and college production is there. Not overly big or fast, but runs solid routes and has solid hands. Mike Walker could be a solid player, but his knee is a concern and I'm not a fan of Mike Thomas (see below).



17. James Davis, RB, CLE

Jamal Lewis is just about done. If Davis would have declared for the 2008 draft (he did consider), he would have been drafted much higher. After a disappointing senior season, his value plummeted. He could have a shot at getting carries straight away.



18. Gatrell Johnson, RB, SD

Sproles isn't likely the answer between the tackles and LT is getting up there. LT looked like he lost a step last year. Johnson could end up being the Thunder to Lighting (Sproles) with his size and lack of speed.



19. Brandon Pettigrew, TE, DET

Underrated pass catcher.



20. Rashard Jennings, RB, JAX

Already playing well and should be the backup to MJD in JAX. He's got decent size and should assume the Fred Taylor role.



21. Juaquin Iglesias, WR, CHI

Decent size and getting some good reviews thus far. Cutler at the helm and no clear cut #1 and #2 WR. If Hester continues to develop and the Vandy connection with Bennett is in full force, Iglesias may disappear in the shadows.



22. Jared Cook, TE, TEN

Great hands and opportunity with Britt as the only other substantial passing option not named Johnson.

23. Bernard Scott, RB, CIN

Underated and talented. Great opportunity if he can sort out his off field issues.



24. Mohamed Massaquoi, WR, CLE

High ceiling. May end up being more productive than Robiskie, but definitely a higher bust risk.



25. Javon Ringer, RB, TEN

White is in his contract year. Ringer should take over the goal-line/short yardage role in a year.



26. Travis Beckum, TE, NYG

Love his potential. Would have gone much higher if he were healthy his senior year. Great hands and speed and could be a Winslow type of player.



27. Shawn Nelson, TE, BUF

Another TE with tremendous hands. May take a bit longer to be productive with TO in the picture.



28. Josh Freeman, QB, TB

He'll get a shot at the starting gig, but needs to develop a bit and become more consistent.



29. Brandon Tate, WR, NE

Many believe he would have been drafted higher than Nicks if he was healthy.



30. Mike Thomas, WR, JAX

While tremendously productive at Arizona, however, players who have trouble getting off the line and beating the jam I don't generally care for at the next level.

31. Pat White, QB, MIA

I have my doubts if he'll ever be a true QB, but I can't ignore how high he was drafted and his natural athletic ability.

32. Ramses Barden, WR, NYG

Red zone guy for Eli? Quite possibly despite how much I like Nicks.



33. Sammie Stroughter, WR, TB

Stroughter could surprise. There is no real #2 in TB and he's got the talent and ability to succeed. He won't be overly productive, but he's a solid route runner who could be a decent #3 or #4 fantasy WR if he can sort out his off the field issues (i.e., depression).



34. Derrick Williams, WR, DET

Williams seems to be forgotten in Detroit. I really think he could be decent as the third passing option behind Calvin and Pettigrew. He's likely not going to see an double teams and should then have the chance to use his speed to his benefit.



35. Chase Coffman, TE, CIN

Should be a solid red zone option.



36. James Casey, TE, HOU

If Owen Daniels doesn't sign an extension, this kid could be a steal as he's rarely being drafted. He's got the talent to succeed at the next level and be a viable fanasty option.

37. Patrick Turner, WR, MIA

38. Glen Coffee, RB, SF

39. Mike Wallace, WR, PIT

40. Cedric Pearman, RB, BAL

41. Cornelius Ingram, TE, PHI

Could be a steal. Fantastic size and athletic ability.

42. Austin Collie, WR, IND

Cousin Pierre is the guy to own in Indy, not Collie.

43. Deon Butler, WR, SEA

44. Kenny McKinley, WR, DEN

If Marshall continues to mess around and screw up McKinley could get a shot.



45. Johnny Knox, WR, CHI

Other player amongst the rest that I like:



Arian Foster, RB, HOU

He's got a good shot at being a goal-line back in Houston to take some of the pressure off of Slaton. Chris Brown has some talent, but has to be one of the more brittle RB's.

 

[bigmarc27]

I could be completely wrong on this, but I absolutely think Donald Brown is going to be a stud. Everything I see screams workman-like production for a long time.

 

[EBF]

I'm higher on Harvin and Greene. I have Harvin at WR2 and Greene at RB2. However, I think Beanie and Brown will both be worth more than Greene after next season because they have an immediate opportunity to impress.

I'm down on Britt. I think Britt and DHB are the most likely to bust out of the six first round WRs. Maclin would probably be next in line. I rank him in between Crabtree/Harvin/Nicks and DHB/Britt.

It's a crapshoot this year once you get outside the top 15. I've been rolling the dice on Tate in the 12-20 range in a lot of my leagues because I think he's the most talented of the WRs not picked in the first round. I've also grabbed Dillard in a couple leagues. At RB, I think Gartrell Johnson and Andre Brown are the most appealing third tier options.

It's a great year to have a first round pick and a terrible year to have a second-third round pick.

 

[Patoons]

I could be completely wrong on this, but I absolutely think Donald Brown is going to be a stud. Everything I see screams workman-like production for a long time.

A lot of guys seem to love him, I just don't see him being productive long term. He's got decent hands and produced well so he should fit the Indy system decently and be an ok fantasy starter. I don't think he'll ever be a stud and the guys I have ranked ahead of him should be.

 

[JohnnyU]

Patoons, thanks for putting out this list and taking the time to put in commentary. I see Crabtree as the third or fourth best WR in this class. I won't go into why, because I would be beating a dead horse. I like Nicks and Harvin more than Crabtree.

No way I put Pettigrew ahead of Jared Cook. Pettigrew is so good as a blocker that's exactly what he will do in Detroit.

I agree with you on 2-5, maybe putting Brown at 5 or 6 instead of 7. I wouldn't have ranked either of the QBs in the top 15. I just don't think either will pan out. I would move up McCoy also, especially in PPR leagues. I would move Shawn Nelson above Massaquoi, Ringer, and Beckum. I would move Mike Thomas above Massaquoi, Ringer, Beckum, Freeman, and Tate. I would move Pat White toward the bottom of the list. I would move Mike Wallace to the high twenties or low thirties. Even though I agree with you about Garcon, Collie still belongs about 14 spots higher. I also like Johnny Knox more than White, Barden, Williams, Coffman, Casey, Turner, McKinley, and Butler.

 

[jwb]

Not a huge Britt fan. Liked him at Rutgers, but for some reason, the way he catches the ball just doesn't seem fluid or natural - I think he will have a lot of issues in the NFL (catching the ball in traffic, fighting someone for the ball, etc). In my opinion, he'll be a fine WR if a QB can hit him in the breadbasket, not so much otherwise.

Hicks I agree with you on - the more I watched of him, the happier I was he fell to me in BBIII. He really looks the part. I have him #2 after Crabby.

Harvin will depend on the system and what they do with him - I personally think he becomes a PPR stud.

I personally would pick Brown over Wells. But that's just me. Not a Wells believer (at least long term.) Addai always had the "not that good a RB, but in a great situation" stigma. Brown, to my eyes, is a better RB than Addai, in the system that made Addai a yearly top ten pick. But I'm not best judge of competition, either - did Brown look "better" to me because of who he played? It's possible.

 

[Biabreakable]

Thanks for your list.

Nice to see your not over reacting to the Westbrook/McCoy situation. We have him at around the same slot.

I really like DHB and I am more skeptical of Britts opporttunity but other than that no major differences in the top 15.

I do think Britt will be on the field a lot because he is reportedly a tenacious blocker. Something I am sure Fisher will love. But does that mean his role in the passing game may be somewhat limited? And unless VY comes back like gang busters who is going to get him the ball frequently in a Titan offense?

I think this is a great year for players in FF oppotunities. The players may have limited talent (that remains to be seen how well they do at the next level) relative to most years or maybe not. Lots of the talking heads have called this a weak draft class. I don't see it that way at all when one considers the quality offensive linemen and defensive players that were available in this draft. I don't recall a crop recently with so many quality pass rushers. And you also had 3 QB and 6 WR taken 1st round compared to zero WR taken last year.

I think this is a year to get one of these WR to hold down a slot for your team. There are enough of them that most owners should be able to get at least one. And guys like this are not available every year.

 

[FUBAR]

As a Titans fan I'm very happy about the Britt pick, but as a FF owner I'm not taking him nearly as high as you are. Best case scenario, he's close to Hines Ward. More likely, he's barely startable. I'll take Maclin over him any day.

I would almost swap Cook and Britt. Not quite simply because even stud TEs aren't usually worth good RBs, but it will be closer in value than this.

Other than that, I like it.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

I think you're sleeping on Mike Thomas. The thought is that he will have trouble getting off the line against press coverage because he's short and not super strong, but I think that's just lazy analysis. First of all, he didn't go against much press coverage in college because very few DBs do it. he may already be better at it than you would think by looking at him. Second, upper body strength is probably one of the easiest, relatively speaking, things he can improve on as an NFL player. College players just don't get enough weight room time and as a full time professional, he'll get a ton more and better work in the weight room. Third, he is very quick and explosive off the line with his feet, so although it won't always work, he can get some decent separation with his feet and routes.

Combine those three things and I think he is a much better dynasty prospect than you do.

 

[gianmarco]

I think you're sleeping on Mike Thomas. The thought is that he will have trouble getting off the line against press coverage because he's short and not super strong, but I think that's just lazy analysis. First of all, he didn't go against much press coverage in college because very few DBs do it. he may already be better at it than you would think by looking at him. Second, upper body strength is probably one of the easiest, relatively speaking, things he can improve on as an NFL player. College players just don't get enough weight room time and as a full time professional, he'll get a ton more and better work in the weight room. Third, he is very quick and explosive off the line with his feet, so although it won't always work, he can get some decent separation with his feet and routes.

Combine those three things and I think he is a much better dynasty prospect than you do.

While I like Mike Thomas as well and for many of the reasons you pointed out, the bolded section is something that doesn't make much sense to me. If it were that easy for a WR to add upper body strength which should improve their chances at separation at the line, then why don't most WR's do this and improve on it?

 

[ConstruxBoy]

I think you're sleeping on Mike Thomas. The thought is that he will have trouble getting off the line against press coverage because he's short and not super strong, but I think that's just lazy analysis. First of all, he didn't go against much press coverage in college because very few DBs do it. he may already be better at it than you would think by looking at him. Second, upper body strength is probably one of the easiest, relatively speaking, things he can improve on as an NFL player. College players just don't get enough weight room time and as a full time professional, he'll get a ton more and better work in the weight room. Third, he is very quick and explosive off the line with his feet, so although it won't always work, he can get some decent separation with his feet and routes.

Combine those three things and I think he is a much better dynasty prospect than you do.

While I like Mike Thomas as well and for many of the reasons you pointed out, the bolded section is something that doesn't make much sense to me. If it were that easy for a WR to add upper body strength which should improve their chances at separation at the line, then why don't most WR's do this and improve on it?

Well obviously there is a limit based on body type to how much muscle you can add. You see people talking about that all the time regarding RBs with skinny legs. They don't have the frame to add more muscle. And it may be that Thomas doesn't have the frame to add any more muscle in his upper body. But I think the more important point is the the strength training/weight room exposure in the NFL is much, much better than these guys are getting in college. So you can't always say that it looks like a guy isn't strong enough in college and assume that he can't get stronger after a season in the NFL. I think there is decent chance that almost all of the rookie WRs get stronger by this time next year, assuming they work hard on it. At least in my opinion.

 

[Biabreakable]

Struxboy certainly has a lot of conviction about the talent and potential of Mike Thomas. And I pay attention to that. I have no way of knowing since I have only seen a few you tubes of him.

For me the problem I see for him is that as a slot WR (if he can eventualy win that role) isn't really a great opportunity. In a conservative offense under Del Rio. Now if this changes and the offense became more wide open that would be different. And maybe if Del Rio is fired the team might move in that direction.

But what I see is a slow start and then no guaruntee of high targets later. So hard for me to be very excited about that.

Obviously if Thomas is more talented than I realize he will earn a large role and I will be very wrong. I think that is certainly possible.

ETA- Not sure what Thomas's ADP is in PPR but in non PPR I think it is something like 40. So if Struxboy is right he should be a real steal for people who get him.

 

[Patoons]

No way I put Pettigrew ahead of Jared Cook. Pettigrew is so good as a blocker that's exactly what he will do in Detroit.

I like Cook as well, but really think people are overlooking Pettigrew's pass catching ability. With CJ on the outside perpetually doubled, he should get some favorable match ups he can take advantage of.

I would move up McCoy also, especially in PPR leagues. I would move Shawn Nelson above Massaquoi, Ringer, and Beckum. I would move Mike Thomas above Massaquoi, Ringer, Beckum, Freeman, and Tate. I would move Pat White toward the bottom of the list. I would move Mike Wallace to the high twenties or low thirties.

I don't trust McCoy. Has the potential to be like Westy, but that's if everything falls into place for him. He's got great vision/quickness, but I don't think he has the same speed/strength that Westy does.

Even though I agree with you about Garcon, Collie still belongs about 14 spots higher.

Collie will be at best the 5th option on that team for quite some time, very tough for me to take him ahead of the guys ahead of him.

 

[Patoons]

Not a huge Britt fan. Liked him at Rutgers, but for some reason, the way he catches the ball just doesn't seem fluid or natural - I think he will have a lot of issues in the NFL (catching the ball in traffic, fighting someone for the ball, etc). In my opinion, he'll be a fine WR if a QB can hit him in the breadbasket, not so much otherwise.

I don't agree on having issues fighting for the ball. I think he's main strength is attacking the ball. I do agree that he's not particularly fluid and lacks top speed, though. His drops issues are a bit overblown.

I really like DHB and I am more skeptical of Britts opporttunity but other than that no major differences in the top 15.

My issue with DHB is that he was drafted primarily on his athleticism. He wasn't productive at Maryland, granted it may have partly to do with that situation there, but he's all speed. I'm not buying into that hype. I feel the Troy Williamson aura with him.

I do think Britt will be on the field a lot because he is reportedly a tenacious blocker. Something I am sure Fisher will love. But does that mean his role in the passing game may be somewhat limited? And unless VY comes back like gang busters who is going to get him the ball frequently in a Titan offense?

The QB situation is a concern, but it was in KC too and Bowe's been fine. I see the situation as similar and like Britt's strength, route running and how he attacks.

 

[Patoons]

I would almost swap Cook and Britt. Not quite simply because even stud TEs aren't usually worth good RBs, but it will be closer in value than this.

You and Johnny seem to be big fans of Cook. I like him as well, but obviously think Britt is going to be solid for the reasons I discussed in my posts above.

I think you're sleeping on Mike Thomas. The thought is that he will have trouble getting off the line against press coverage because he's short and not super strong, but I think that's just lazy analysis. First of all, he didn't go against much press coverage in college because very few DBs do it. he may already be better at it than you would think by looking at him. Second, upper body strength is probably one of the easiest, relatively speaking, things he can improve on as an NFL player. College players just don't get enough weight room time and as a full time professional, he'll get a ton more and better work in the weight room. Third, he is very quick and explosive off the line with his feet, so although it won't always work, he can get some decent separation with his feet and routes.

Combine those three things and I think he is a much better dynasty prospect than you do.

His quickness/acceleration is the one combined skill set that kept me coming back to him, but ultimately did not come away impressed. He seems to struggle with concentration too frequently and I don't think he's strong enough to beat the jam unless he's in motion more often than not. I don't see him more than a viable slot receiver. Admittedly, he's definitely a guy that I may be overlooking, but I like Dillard in Jax.

 

[Todem]

I think Jared Cook has super star raw talent. It will be interesting too see if the Titans hit another homerun again this year in getting a combine superstar and a guy who was compared to Calvin Johnson by the old ball coach.

I have been drafting Jared Cook in almost every rookie draft I can.

I think another player who can be a nice pick is Andre Brown. He can see him picking up where Derrick Ward left off.

As far as the WR's Nicks is my favorite of the bunch followed by Crabtree and Maclin. All 3 of them should be very good long term dynasty WR's.

Wells who has amazing skills as a true prototypical NFL runner has 2 things working against him. He plays for the Cards and he tends to not play well when hurt. Something everyone must do in the NFL if they expect to make an impact.

 

[JohnnyU]

No way I put Pettigrew ahead of Jared Cook. Pettigrew is so good as a blocker that's exactly what he will do in Detroit.

I like Cook as well, but really think people are overlooking Pettigrew's pass catching ability. With CJ on the outside perpetually doubled, he should get some favorable match ups he can take advantage of.

I would move up McCoy also, especially in PPR leagues. I would move Shawn Nelson above Massaquoi, Ringer, and Beckum. I would move Mike Thomas above Massaquoi, Ringer, Beckum, Freeman, and Tate. I would move Pat White toward the bottom of the list. I would move Mike Wallace to the high twenties or low thirties.

I don't trust McCoy. Has the potential to be like Westy, but that's if everything falls into place for him. He's got great vision/quickness, but I don't think he has the same speed/strength that Westy does.

Even though I agree with you about Garcon, Collie still belongs about 14 spots higher.

Collie will be at best the 5th option on that team for quite some time, very tough for me to take him ahead of the guys ahead of him.

Dynasty = marathonRedraft = sprint

 

[Patoons]

No way I put Pettigrew ahead of Jared Cook. Pettigrew is so good as a blocker that's exactly what he will do in Detroit.

I like Cook as well, but really think people are overlooking Pettigrew's pass catching ability. With CJ on the outside perpetually doubled, he should get some favorable match ups he can take advantage of.

I would move up McCoy also, especially in PPR leagues. I would move Shawn Nelson above Massaquoi, Ringer, and Beckum. I would move Mike Thomas above Massaquoi, Ringer, Beckum, Freeman, and Tate. I would move Pat White toward the bottom of the list. I would move Mike Wallace to the high twenties or low thirties.

I don't trust McCoy. Has the potential to be like Westy, but that's if everything falls into place for him. He's got great vision/quickness, but I don't think he has the same speed/strength that Westy does.

Even though I agree with you about Garcon, Collie still belongs about 14 spots higher.

Collie will be at best the 5th option on that team for quite some time, very tough for me to take him ahead of the guys ahead of him.

Dynasty = marathonRedraft = sprint

Agreed. I'll add to Collie that I don't even think he'll be a mediocre WR. Spread offense WR who has little speed/separation ability.

 

[FUBAR]

No way I put Pettigrew ahead of Jared Cook. Pettigrew is so good as a blocker that's exactly what he will do in Detroit.

I like Cook as well, but really think people are overlooking Pettigrew's pass catching ability. With CJ on the outside perpetually doubled, he should get some favorable match ups he can take advantage of.

I would move up McCoy also, especially in PPR leagues. I would move Shawn Nelson above Massaquoi, Ringer, and Beckum. I would move Mike Thomas above Massaquoi, Ringer, Beckum, Freeman, and Tate. I would move Pat White toward the bottom of the list. I would move Mike Wallace to the high twenties or low thirties.

I don't trust McCoy. Has the potential to be like Westy, but that's if everything falls into place for him. He's got great vision/quickness, but I don't think he has the same speed/strength that Westy does.

Even though I agree with you about Garcon, Collie still belongs about 14 spots higher.

Collie will be at best the 5th option on that team for quite some time, very tough for me to take him ahead of the guys ahead of him.

Dynasty = marathonRedraft = sprint

Great, how does that change that he doesn't like McCoy or Collie being behind 24 year old Gonzo, 22 year old Garcon, 29 year old Clark, and even 30 year old Wayne has at least 3-5 years left. By the time Collie can even consider being more than the #3 option at best, Peyton will be on the wrong side of 35. I'd feel different if Collie has stud potential, but he doesn't.

 

[JohnnyU]

Great, how does that change that he doesn't like McCoy or Collie being behind 24 year old Gonzo, 22 year old Garcon, 29 year old Clark, and even 30 year old Wayne has at least 3-5 years left. By the time Collie can even consider being more than the #3 option at best, Peyton will be on the wrong side of 35. I'd feel different if Collie has stud potential, but he doesn't.

You make a good point if you're convinced Garcon is better than Collie. As for McCoy, I'm pretty sure he will be fantasy relevant soon.

 

[FunkyPlutos]

Nice list, but I think that Mike Goodson should be listed for sure and probably even top 30. Nothing but rave reviews for him from camp and he can play the slot and is ideal for PPR leagues.

 

[Patoons]

Nice list, but I think that Mike Goodson should be listed for sure and probably even top 30. Nothing but rave reviews for him from camp and he can play the slot and is ideal for PPR leagues.

Fair point. I agree that's an oversight in my rankings, especially with the positive talk and splitting him outside.

 

[Jeff Tefertiller]

Assuming PPR, I think you have may have Thomas and Tate a little low. Admittedly, I love the upside of both. In PPR, I like the fact that Thomas is the all time receptions leader in the Pac 10. I think he will have fewer issues with the jam than Dillard. Tate is a guy that was very quick before injury. He and Thomas have a lot of upside in PPR, imo.

 

[Football Jones]

I agree with putting Pettigrew above Cook (even tho I like Cook). I took Cook before Pettigrew in one dynasty league, but only because I was sure I could get BP later. BP is so much like Witten (athletically), it's scary. The only issue is will Detroit use him enough. And I believe the answer is yes. The fact BP is a great blocker is an asset, not a hindrance (as I've heard quite a few people suggest). It simply means he's going to be a 3-down TE.

I'm not saying BP is a legit redraft choice this year. Besides the slow learning curve rookie TEs typically undergo, he may be needed to help stabilize the OL more than the Lions would like this season, but make no mistake...this kid is going to be an elite player in TE-required leagues (in both PPR & non-PPR leagues). Maybe as soon as 2010.

If you don't think BP is an outstanding athlete, you're sadly mistaken, IMO. He also has great size, can run, has hands like flypaper, & has good receiving instincts. Everything is in place. And Calvin will only help free up BP over the middle & in the redzone.

 

[Biabreakable]

I agree with putting Pettigrew above Cook (even tho I like Cook). I took Cook before Pettigrew in one dynasty league, but only because I was sure I could get BP later. BP is so much like Witten (athletically), it's scary. The only issue is will Detroit use him enough. And I believe the answer is yes. The fact BP is a great blocker is an asset, not a hindrance (as I've heard quite a few people suggest). It simply means he's going to be a 3-down TE.I'm not saying BP is a good redraft choice this year. He may be needed to help stabilize the OL more than the Lions would like this season, but make no mistake...this kid is going to be an elite player in TE-required leagues (in both PPR & non-PPR leagues). Maybe as soon as 2010. If you don't think BP is an outstanding athlete, you're sadly mistaken. He also has great size, can run, has hands like flypaper, & has good receiving instincts. Everything is in place. And Calvin will only help free up BP over the middle & in the redzone.

I have Cook ahead of Pettigrew because I think he has more upside as a reciever. But I also like Pettigrews situation to possibly be the #2 target in the passing game once the offensive line is capable enough to let him be. I don't think that will be this year.Cook creates a lot of mismatches and I think he might be featured in the offense as a reciever a lot right away. And he may have the best hands on the team?FWIW I have Cook 15 and Pettigrew 21That includes a couple linebackers. Offense only Pettigrew would be 19. I do consider Cook and Pettigrew to be a seperate tier but only 4 slots different between them if your only looking at offense.

 

[Crippler]

No way I put Pettigrew ahead of Jared Cook. Pettigrew is so good as a blocker that's exactly what he will do in Detroit.

I don't trust McCoy. Has the potential to be like Westy, but that's if everything falls into place for him. He's got great vision/quickness, but I don't think he has the same speed/strength that Westy does.

YOu do realize that McCoy is only 20. Speed may not come like Westy but the Strength will. In PPR, he will be very good. I have him as RB#3 and PPR league 5th overall as most leagues want 2 RB's still. 2nd round picks did very well last year and he certainly could follow those footsteps.

 

[Patoons]

No way I put Pettigrew ahead of Jared Cook. Pettigrew is so good as a blocker that's exactly what he will do in Detroit.

I don't trust McCoy. Has the potential to be like Westy, but that's if everything falls into place for him. He's got great vision/quickness, but I don't think he has the same speed/strength that Westy does.

YOu do realize that McCoy is only 20. Speed may not come like Westy but the Strength will. In PPR, he will be very good. I have him as RB#3 and PPR league 5th overall as most leagues want 2 RB's still. 2nd round picks did very well last year and he certainly could follow those footsteps.

Yes, I realize he's only 20. I don't care how old he is if I don't think he'll ever be a full time NFL back. I have some doubts if he's really going to get that much stronger, but let's say he does. My other issue is that his running style is finesse. I don't see him more than a change of pace back who gets the ball out of the backfield on screens, swing, etc unless he learns to run through the tackles with more authority (this is what I'm considering everything falling into place). I see him struggling between the tackles like Reggie Bush does, but the unfortunate thing is that McCoy is no where near as explosive as Reggie or Westy, so I don't see his PPR value as high as either. I don't see him more than a #3 RB in PPR fantasy leagues unless he runs through the tackles with more authority/decisiveness.

 

[JohnnyU]

No way I put Pettigrew ahead of Jared Cook. Pettigrew is so good as a blocker that's exactly what he will do in Detroit.

I don't trust McCoy. Has the potential to be like Westy, but that's if everything falls into place for him. He's got great vision/quickness, but I don't think he has the same speed/strength that Westy does.

YOu do realize that McCoy is only 20. Speed may not come like Westy but the Strength will. In PPR, he will be very good. I have him as RB#3 and PPR league 5th overall as most leagues want 2 RB's still. 2nd round picks did very well last year and he certainly could follow those footsteps.

Yes, I realize he's only 20. I don't care how old he is if I don't think he'll ever be a full time NFL back. I have some doubts if he's really going to get that much stronger, but let's say he does. My other issue is that his running style is finesse. I don't see him more than a change of pace back who gets the ball out of the backfield on screens, swing, etc unless he learns to run through the tackles with more authority (this is what I'm considering everything falling into place). I see him struggling between the tackles like Reggie Bush does, but the unfortunate thing is that McCoy is no where near as explosive as Reggie or Westy, so I don't see his PPR value as high as either. I don't see him more than a #3 RB in PPR fantasy leagues unless he runs through the tackles with more authority/decisiveness.

Scout.com scouting report on McCoy2009 Scout.com NFL Draft Rankings (full list):

Pos: RB Pos Rank: #4 Pos Rating:

Scout.com Player Evaluation:

STRENGTHS

Cutback Ability

Elusiveness

Vision

AREAS FOR IMPROVEMENT

Power <--------- They said the same thing about Westbrook

Size <-------------They said the same thing about Westbrook

McCoy is a versatile, dynamic runner who can impact a game in running and passing situations. He’s elusive on the edge and displays toughness running between the tackles. He has excellent vision and cutback ability that make him tough to defend in space. He runs with a shifty nature where defenders are left helpless trying to bring him down with one arm. - Chris Steuber, Scout.com

 

[Patoons]

McCoy is a versatile, dynamic runner who can impact a game in running and passing situations. He’s elusive on the edge and displays toughness running between the tackles. He has excellent vision and cutback ability that make him tough to defend in space. He runs with a shifty nature where defenders are left helpless trying to bring him down with one arm. - Chris Steuber, Scout.com

I've read a few with similar scounting reports on his between the tackle running and some to the contrary. From watching a number of Pitt games, he appears to bounce outside too much and avoid running up the gut. I don't particularly care for a guy that shys away the middle, especially if we're talking NFL starter.

 

[JohnnyU]

McCoy is a versatile, dynamic runner who can impact a game in running and passing situations. He’s elusive on the edge and displays toughness running between the tackles. He has excellent vision and cutback ability that make him tough to defend in space. He runs with a shifty nature where defenders are left helpless trying to bring him down with one arm. - Chris Steuber, Scout.com

I've read a few with similar scounting reports on his between the tackle running and some to the contrary. From watching a number of Pitt games, he appears to bounce outside too much and avoid running up the gut. I don't particularly care for a guy that shys away the middle, especially if we're talking NFL starter.

So are you saying these scouting reports are wrong? Some very reputable sources say he's tough (for his size) between the tackles. How many Pitt games did you watch? Which ones?

 

[gianmarco]

McCoy is a versatile, dynamic runner who can impact a game in running and passing situations. He’s elusive on the edge and displays toughness running between the tackles. He has excellent vision and cutback ability that make him tough to defend in space. He runs with a shifty nature where defenders are left helpless trying to bring him down with one arm. - Chris Steuber, Scout.com

I've read a few with similar scounting reports on his between the tackle running and some to the contrary.

From watching a number of Pitt games, he appears to bounce outside too much and avoid running up the gut. I don't particularly care for a guy that shys away the middle, especially if we're talking NFL starter.

So are you saying these scouting reports are wrong? Some very reputable sources say he's tough (for his size) between the tackles. How many Pitt games did you watch? Which ones?

I guess you didn't read what he wrote. He said he read contrary to what you posted. Just because you quoted one scouting report saying the above doesn't make it true. The quote below is from Waldman in the RSP

McCoy will need to become a more powerful runner. McCoy’s game isn’t about running over

defenders, so he doesn’t need to be 220 lbs. But he will need to become adept at learning when to take

fewer risks at the line of scrimmage, lowering his shoulders into a small crease and pushing for whatever

yardage he can get. In the NFL, McCoy will need to play situational football. This means knowing when

going for the big play is too high-risk for the down, distance, and quarter situation. If he lacks the ability

to get two to three yards by generating a push he’ll remain a situational player.

So are you saying that your scouting report is the only one that is correct?

 

[JohnnyU]

McCoy is a versatile, dynamic runner who can impact a game in running and passing situations. He’s elusive on the edge and displays toughness running between the tackles. He has excellent vision and cutback ability that make him tough to defend in space. He runs with a shifty nature where defenders are left helpless trying to bring him down with one arm. - Chris Steuber, Scout.com

I've read a few with similar scounting reports on his between the tackle running and some to the contrary.

From watching a number of Pitt games, he appears to bounce outside too much and avoid running up the gut. I don't particularly care for a guy that shys away the middle, especially if we're talking NFL starter.

So are you saying these scouting reports are wrong? Some very reputable sources say he's tough (for his size) between the tackles. How many Pitt games did you watch? Which ones?

I guess you didn't read what he wrote. He said he read contrary to what you posted. Just because you quoted one scouting report saying the above doesn't make it true. The quote below is from Waldman in the RSP

McCoy will need to become a more powerful runner. McCoy’s game isn’t about running over

defenders, so he doesn’t need to be 220 lbs. But he will need to become adept at learning when to take

fewer risks at the line of scrimmage, lowering his shoulders into a small crease and pushing for whatever

yardage he can get. In the NFL, McCoy will need to play situational football. This means knowing when

going for the big play is too high-risk for the down, distance, and quarter situation. If he lacks the ability

to get two to three yards by generating a push he’ll remain a situational player.

So are you saying that your scouting report is the only one that is correct?

Absolutely not. I really don't know McCoy's future, but I do get a kick out of those that think they do.

 

[gianmarco]

Absolutely not. I really don't know McCoy's future, but I do get a kick out of those that think they do.

Oh, you mean like this guy?

As for McCoy, I'm pretty sure he will be fantasy relevant soon.

 

[JohnnyU]

Absolutely not. I really don't know McCoy's future, but I do get a kick out of those that think they do.

Oh, you mean like this guy?

As for McCoy, I'm pretty sure he will be fantasy relevant soon.

I can have an opinion however unsure it is

 

[gianmarco]

Absolutely not. I really don't know McCoy's future, but I do get a kick out of those that think they do.

Oh, you mean like this guy?

As for McCoy, I'm pretty sure he will be fantasy relevant soon.

I can have an opinion however unsure it is

Of course you can. Just like everyone else. Just interesting how you get a kick out of others doing exactly what you often do. Then again, that's one of the points of these forums. To offer up opinions.

 

[Patoons]

McCoy is a versatile, dynamic runner who can impact a game in running and passing situations. He’s elusive on the edge and displays toughness running between the tackles. He has excellent vision and cutback ability that make him tough to defend in space. He runs with a shifty nature where defenders are left helpless trying to bring him down with one arm. - Chris Steuber, Scout.com

I've read a few with similar scounting reports on his between the tackle running and some to the contrary.

From watching a number of Pitt games, he appears to bounce outside too much and avoid running up the gut. I don't particularly care for a guy that shys away the middle, especially if we're talking NFL starter.

So are you saying these scouting reports are wrong? Some very reputable sources say he's tough (for his size) between the tackles. How many Pitt games did you watch? Which ones?

I guess you didn't read what he wrote. He said he read contrary to what you posted. Just because you quoted one scouting report saying the above doesn't make it true. The quote below is from Waldman in the RSP

McCoy will need to become a more powerful runner. McCoy’s game isn’t about running over

defenders, so he doesn’t need to be 220 lbs. But he will need to become adept at learning when to take

fewer risks at the line of scrimmage, lowering his shoulders into a small crease and pushing for whatever

yardage he can get. In the NFL, McCoy will need to play situational football. This means knowing when

going for the big play is too high-risk for the down, distance, and quarter situation. If he lacks the ability

to get two to three yards by generating a push he’ll remain a situational player.

So are you saying that your scouting report is the only one that is correct?

I think Gian's got the point I was trying to make on the scouting reports (i.e., that there are contrary points out there).I watched 3 Pitt games (I'm not sure what this proves/disproves):

Pitt v. ND

Pitt v. Org. St.

Pitt v. Bowling Green

And for the record, these are clearly my opinions, in no way can I be certain or "know his future". I'm not sure what gives you the idea that I am or that I'm portraying that. If I were, I wouldn't be sitting at a desk, behind a computer screen writing on a fantasy football forum on thoughts behind McCoy's career. Even if I were a professional scout, not even the best can be certain and I'm sure you know that.

 

[Multiple Scores]

McCoy was a guy I liked alot during the season last year, I was one who thought he should come out, others made many points which I dismissed personally and liked what I saw on tape. Then his Pro Day numbers showed me the light that he really needed to stay in school and work on strength, especially in his lower body. His numbers in the vertical and broad jump were so bad that I have my doubts(Note I said "doubts") that he'll ever amount to more than a solid NFL backup, his 40 did nothing to impress either and he was supposedly a burner. After looking into it a little bit he didn't break many runs of 20+ yards, Moreno and Wells who are known for other strengths in their games actually break a ton more big runs than McCoy, for a guy who is touted as being a guy who can get to the corner and is a burner the numbers say different.

I am not going to stand here and say I know this or I know that, because I've been wrong about players at all positions many times. The poor Pro Day and lack of 20+ yard runs for a guy whose reputation is built around speed and elusiveness, something here doesn't add up. As far as McCoy being a good inside runner between the tackles this is news to me. I have him as my 5th RB from this class and am curious to see how he pans out. He isn't a guy I'd target with his ADP but would take a risk on him where Patoons has him.

 

[JohnnyU]

McCoy was a guy I liked alot during the season last year, I was one who thought he should come out, others made many points which I dismissed personally and liked what I saw on tape.

You mean Youtube? or do you actually have some tape on him? Did you record a lot of games and edit it to just have McCoy on film? I ask this because I will admit I could learn from others analysis. I don't pretend to know a lot about McCoy. Maybe wishful thinking and some youtube clips and what so called scouts say.

 

[Multiple Scores]

McCoy was a guy I liked alot during the season last year, I was one who thought he should come out, others made many points which I dismissed personally and liked what I saw on tape.

You mean Youtube? or do you actually have some tape on him? Did you record a lot of games and edit it to just have McCoy on film? I ask this because I will admit I could learn from others analysis. I don't pretend to know a lot about McCoy. Maybe wishful thinking and some youtube clips and what so called scouts say.

Just recorded 7-8 games of Pitts onto DVR and watched them, some of them I would just skip the other teams offense depending on the team.

 

[JohnnyU]

McCoy was a guy I liked alot during the season last year, I was one who thought he should come out, others made many points which I dismissed personally and liked what I saw on tape.

You mean Youtube? or do you actually have some tape on him? Did you record a lot of games and edit it to just have McCoy on film? I ask this because I will admit I could learn from others analysis. I don't pretend to know a lot about McCoy. Maybe wishful thinking and some youtube clips and what so called scouts say.

Just recorded 7-8 games of Pitts onto DVR and watched them, some of them I would just skip the other teams offense depending on the team.

Can I get a copy? I will pay you for it.

 

[Multiple Scores]

McCoy was a guy I liked alot during the season last year, I was one who thought he should come out, others made many points which I dismissed personally and liked what I saw on tape.

You mean Youtube? or do you actually have some tape on him? Did you record a lot of games and edit it to just have McCoy on film? I ask this because I will admit I could learn from others analysis. I don't pretend to know a lot about McCoy. Maybe wishful thinking and some youtube clips and what so called scouts say.

Just recorded 7-8 games of Pitts onto DVR and watched them, some of them I would just skip the other teams offense depending on the team.

Can I get a copy? I will pay you for it.

Wish I still had them, I delete as I go along, it's just on a DVR. I had the Game Plan last year, if you have direct tv and don't have game plan you do have Ch 610 and 613 that play SEC and Big 10 games, pretty sure i seen every Georgia and Ohio State game last year, right now there is no channel I know of for the other conferences.

 

[mdog1967]

McCoy was a guy I liked alot during the season last year, I was one who thought he should come out, others made many points which I dismissed personally and liked what I saw on tape.

You mean Youtube? or do you actually have some tape on him? Did you record a lot of games and edit it to just have McCoy on film? I ask this because I will admit I could learn from others analysis. I don't pretend to know a lot about McCoy. Maybe wishful thinking and some youtube clips and what so called scouts say.

Just recorded 7-8 games of Pitts onto DVR and watched them, some of them I would just skip the other teams offense depending on the team.

Can I get a copy? I will pay you for it.

Ouch getting nearly testy here.NFL Scouts - If you want to be an NFL scout there are at least two ways to do it. Either be on the inside already and use the good ole boy network or hope that a course from a place like "Sports management worldwide" can crack open a door for you. Scouts are not anymore knowledgeable about how good or not a given players potential than your normal hardcore football fan who watches the games on Sunday. I would not knock Youtube video highlights, you can watch a 5 minute video and get a pretty good sense of how well a RB or WR can run or catch the ball. There are intangibles that are not apparent in a highlight reel. Does the RB/WR block well? (yeah a WR throwing a down field block can be an important skill set). Does the player have the ability to absorb a play book? Can a player read the defensive scheme? Does the player show up to practice, team meetings and mandatory events on time, is the player a character risk?. What is the competion level of play that said player has been matched up against?

Youtube is limited, but armed with other information from reputable scouting sources Youtube videos can be a great resource. They can confirm what you have read and heard from others, or .....

How often have the professional scouts been wrong?

About as often as they have been right.

Bottom line is the eye can detect fluidity, speed, acceleration, power, lateral movement and even toughness. You can plainly see if the WR catches the ball with his hands or uses his body. You can see if a RB follows his blocks, turns up field quickly, dances behind the line or is decisive. It ain't that hard and Youtube ain't that bad.

 

[texasbirdfan]

Josh Freeman down to 28th? already? come on, dynasty, remember? The handful of players and TE's ranked ahead of him won't see any daylight for fantasy points.....

 

[JohnnyU]

McCoy was a guy I liked alot during the season last year, I was one who thought he should come out, others made many points which I dismissed personally and liked what I saw on tape.

You mean Youtube? or do you actually have some tape on him? Did you record a lot of games and edit it to just have McCoy on film? I ask this because I will admit I could learn from others analysis. I don't pretend to know a lot about McCoy. Maybe wishful thinking and some youtube clips and what so called scouts say.

Just recorded 7-8 games of Pitts onto DVR and watched them, some of them I would just skip the other teams offense depending on the team.

Can I get a copy? I will pay you for it.

Ouch getting nearly testy here.

WTF? How is asking for a copy of a DVD getting testy? Yes, we may disagree, but that's ok, we're all mature enough to handle it.

 

[coolnerd]

McCoy was a guy I liked alot during the season last year, I was one who thought he should come out, others made many points which I dismissed personally and liked what I saw on tape.

You mean Youtube? or do you actually have some tape on him? Did you record a lot of games and edit it to just have McCoy on film? I ask this because I will admit I could learn from others analysis. I don't pretend to know a lot about McCoy. Maybe wishful thinking and some youtube clips and what so called scouts say.

Just recorded 7-8 games of Pitts onto DVR and watched them, some of them I would just skip the other teams offense depending on the team.

Can I get a copy? I will pay you for it.

Ouch getting nearly testy here.NFL Scouts - If you want to be an NFL scout there are at least two ways to do it. Either be on the inside already and use the good ole boy network or hope that a course from a place like "Sports management worldwide" can crack open a door for you. Scouts are not anymore knowledgeable about how good or not a given players potential than your normal hardcore football fan who watches the games on Sunday. I would not knock Youtube video highlights, you can watch a 5 minute video and get a pretty good sense of how well a RB or WR can run or catch the ball. There are intangibles that are not apparent in a highlight reel. Does the RB/WR block well? (yeah a WR throwing a down field block can be an important skill set). Does the player have the ability to absorb a play book? Can a player read the defensive scheme? Does the player show up to practice, team meetings and mandatory events on time, is the player a character risk?. What is the competion level of play that said player has been matched up against?

Youtube is limited, but armed with other information from reputable scouting sources Youtube videos can be a great resource. They can confirm what you have read and heard from others, or .....

How often have the professional scouts been wrong?

About as often as they have been right.

Bottom line is the eye can detect fluidity, speed, acceleration, power, lateral movement and even toughness. You can plainly see if the WR catches the ball with his hands or uses his body. You can see if a RB follows his blocks, turns up field quickly, dances behind the line or is decisive. It ain't that hard and Youtube ain't that bad.

Interesting post. The first part claims any of us who watches a lot of football are just as knowledgable as an NFL scout then it immediately goes on to explain why we are not working with the amount information that those same scouts are drawing their conclusions. Seriously, I think many of us can tell obvious talents pretty well, but can we really breakdown why Patrick Turner or Austin Collie is seen as a better prospect by the NFL than Manuel Johnson or Kevin Olgetree based on a few minites of you tube or even watching a couple each guys games? I think that at the highest end players (most important for FF purposes) you many not be far off, but the smaller the degree of separation those things that we don't see really matter greatly.

 

[mdog1967]

Interesting post. The first part claims any of us who watches a lot of football are just as knowledgable as an NFL scout then it immediately goes on to explain why we are not working with the amount information that those same scouts are drawing their conclusions. Seriously, I think many of us can tell obvious talents pretty well, but can we really breakdown why Patrick Turner or Austin Collie is seen as a better prospect by the NFL than Manuel Johnson or Kevin Olgetree based on a few minites of you tube or even watching a couple each guys games? I think that at the highest end players (most important for FF purposes) you many not be far off, but the smaller the degree of separation those things that we don't see really matter greatly.

I think by your interest in FFBL and with your long tenure on this forum, I am just as likely to consider your opinion on the potential talent of a player as that of any scout. The response was exactly as you describe, we can see obvious talent but, all of what you said above.