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Dynasty Rankings (4 Viewers)

Is Gonzo more suited for the slot or on the outside as the #2. Even before Garcon broke out this year I got the impression that they would rather have Gonzo in the slot.

I think Garcon will keep starting as the #2WR as he has proven his worth and has true stud potential with his size, speed, toughness and game breaking ability. Gonzo and Collie will be fighting it out for the slot.

 
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Let's assume Gonzalez is 100% next year. If Reggie Wayne gets hurt, who moves over into his spot? Garcon... case closed.

 
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Let's assume Gonzalez is 100% next year. If Reggie Wayne gets hurt, who moves over into his spot? Garcon... case closed.
Thanks for the heads up Mr. Polian!!! Did you forget that Marvin Harrison was playing in 2008? He started 15 games so I would assume he wasn't playing in the slot. My guess is that Gonzales was used in that position.
 
munchkin said:
FrostBite said:
Let's assume Gonzalez is 100% next year. If Reggie Wayne gets hurt, who moves over into his spot? Garcon... case closed.
Thanks for the heads up Mr. Polian!!! Did you forget that Marvin Harrison was playing in 2008? He started 15 games so I would assume he wasn't playing in the slot. My guess is that Gonzales was used in that position.
What does Marvin Harrison playing in 2008 have to do with next year?
 
munchkin said:
FrostBite said:
Let's assume Gonzalez is 100% next year. If Reggie Wayne gets hurt, who moves over into his spot? Garcon... case closed.
Thanks for the heads up Mr. Polian!!! Did you forget that Marvin Harrison was playing in 2008? He started 15 games so I would assume he wasn't playing in the slot. My guess is that Gonzales was used in that position.
What does Marvin Harrison playing in 2008 have to do with next year?
A response to the post below. If you are saying that Garcon will start (in lieu of Collie) along with Gonzales if Wayne is out of the equation I suppose that would be a safe assumption.If Gonzo is the deep threat that Garcon is then why did he average a whopping 11.6 y/c in 2008 with the best QB in history throwing to him? For comparison, Garcon put up 16.3 y/c. And Garcon is beastly as a blocker and a runner too.
 
If you are saying that Garcon will start (in lieu of Collie) along with Gonzales if Wayne is out of the equation I suppose that would be a safe assumption.
But who do you think would play the WR1 position and why?
The answer is whoever is open.Garcon played great, and it is overshadowing the fact Collie had a great line too 7/123/1. Collie had a good 2 1/2 quarters as a pseudo WR1 against the NYJ week 16 when Wayne was covered by Revis.Nobody knows how healthy Gonzalez will be or how easily he will get the timing down. I think timing is more important than being a physical beast in this offense. Wayne and Harrison aren't strong or track speed fast, but they are smart WRs who know how to get open and put the time in.Really, Peyton will be comfortable with all 4 and Indy can play them in any combination they want. Like NO this year, it will dampen any value of the "b" WRs until Wayne drops down.
 
I'm talking about the actual WR1 position, not who will post FF WR1 numbers. Who would replace Wayne on the left side of the field if he was injured?

 
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DoubleG said:
Gonzalez and Garcon are the two competing for the WR2 spot - and it seems that many people are quick to forget that Gonzo had won that job coming into this season. Gonzo (pre-injury) was as fast as Garcon and has much better hands. His catch % in 2008 was the 2nd highest in the AFC behind Welker. Anyone automatically pencilling in Garcon as the starter and simply projecting his stats upward from this season may be deeply disappointed. I don't own either player in any league, but if I had Garcon, even in a dynasty league I woul either hold or sell high, but certainly not buy (not in the WR22-26 range), as him starting and getting significant touches is hardly given.
The Garcon who lost the starting job is not even close to the Garcon of today. He is perhaps the most improved player in the league and he is faster than Gonzalez (especially in actual game speed). Garcon is much stronger too. His route running is eons better now than at the beginning of the season. He has good enough hands, but needs to focus more and that part of his game also improved as the season went on. Stats don't factor into my opinion. I just think Garcon right now is better than Gonzalez and he has just started to tap into his potential. That and his much better big play ability tells me Garcon starts next year.
 
If you are saying that Garcon will start (in lieu of Collie) along with Gonzales if Wayne is out of the equation I suppose that would be a safe assumption.
But who do you think would play the WR1 position and why?
Well as I stated back in my first post that scenario would play out in training camp and preseason. Besides, when Wayne was on the left and Marvin was on the right who was the #1? That's right, Marvin. The defacto #1 will be decided by Peyton irregardless as to which side of the field the receiver lines up on.
 
DoubleG said:
Gonzalez and Garcon are the two competing for the WR2 spot - and it seems that many people are quick to forget that Gonzo had won that job coming into this season. Gonzo (pre-injury) was as fast as Garcon and has much better hands. His catch % in 2008 was the 2nd highest in the AFC behind Welker.

Anyone automatically pencilling in Garcon as the starter and simply projecting his stats upward from this season may be deeply disappointed. I don't own either player in any league, but if I had Garcon, even in a dynasty league I woul either hold or sell high, but certainly not buy (not in the WR22-26 range), as him starting and getting significant touches is hardly given.
The Garcon who lost the starting job is not even close to the Garcon of today. He is perhaps the most improved player in the league and he is faster than Gonzalez (especially in actual game speed). Garcon is much stronger too. His route running is eons better now than at the beginning of the season. He has good enough hands, but needs to focus more and that part of his game also improved as the season went on. Stats don't factor into my opinion. I just think Garcon right now is better than Gonzalez and he has just started to tap into his potential. That and his much better big play ability tells me Garcon starts next year.
We could round and round on this. First off, there's a whole bunch of subjectivity in your post. Let me suggest some other stats that might want to be considered:

Garcon - 47 receptions on 88 targets. Gonzalez had 57 receptions on 78 targets in 2008...and Marvin Harrison had 100 targets in 2008.

Garcon had a catch% of 53.4% of targets - that was 79th amoung WRs in 2009. In 2008, Gonzo's catch % was 73.1% - top 5 of WRs with at least 30 receptions. Suggesting that Garcon's hands are "good enough" is being a little generous in my opinion. Most starting WRs in the league had better hands than he did in 2009.

According to Profootball Focus (here) Garcon, in terms of their grading system was ranked 92nd in overall rating for WRs this past year. In 2008 Gonzo graded out in the top 50. Keep in mind both WRs were in their 2nd year at the time of those grades.

Garcon had 4 TDs in 2009 - Gonzo had 4 TDs in 2008. The difference is that Harrison, Wayne and Clark were all still playing in 2008. Garcon only had Wayne and Clark to beat out for catches and TDs.

Both are the same height, and virtually the same speed (at least prior to Gonzales' injury). Garcon is 17 lbs. heavier.

Don't get me wrong. Garcon is developing into a nice WR - but to suggest that he will easily take over the starting spot from Gonzo next year might be overly optomistic. Again, I hold no dog in this fight (other than Manning) - so I couldn't care less who starts. I just calls 'em likes I see's 'em.

 
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If anything, Gonzo looks like the odd man out. Garcon has a better frame to become a full time starter on the outside and Collie is looking like a great WR3. I don't see where Gonzo fits in.

 
If anything, Gonzo looks like the odd man out. Garcon has a better frame to become a full time starter on the outside and Collie is looking like a great WR3. I don't see where Gonzo fits in.
:lmao: Seems to me Gonzo is at best 5th or 6th option in that offense behind Wayne, Clark, Garcon, Collie, and maybe even Addai.
 
If anything, Gonzo looks like the odd man out. Garcon has a better frame to become a full time starter on the outside and Collie is looking like a great WR3. I don't see where Gonzo fits in.
:goodposting: Seems to me Gonzo is at best 5th or 6th option in that offense behind Wayne, Clark, Garcon, Collie, and maybe even Addai.
Garcon, Collie, Gonzalez? To me, their value collectively is reduced because it is NOT clear how this will play out. Will this become like NO where no player is reliable because of how much the ball is spread around? Also, Manning is not a young player so you have to consider that when valuing these young IND WRs in dynasty.
 
I don't think there's enough information to confidently project any of the 3 Colts WR's as the long-term starter opposite Reggie Wayne. At this point, I would value Garcon a little more than Gonzalez, with Collie trailing further behind. To me, Gonzalez looked very impressive in his first 2 years, and he will contend for a starting spot if healthy. However, I think there's a lot to be said for Garcon's opportunity to practice and play with the team for an entire season, especially if that season results in a championship. He has certainly had some bad drops and penalties, but he has shown improvement throughout the season. At the end of the day, that offense has needed a true deep threat ever since Marvin Harrison hit the wall, and Pierre Garcon is the closest thing they've got.

Another thing to consider: Because the Colts don't huddle and substitute much within drives, they're not as likely to spread the receiving numbers around as a team like New Orleans, who rotates personnel packages frequently within a drive. The WR who wins the starting job during training camp stands a good chance of being on the field enough to put up big numbers. Remember, Reggie Wayne put up several 1K yard seasons playing across from Harrison, even with Dallas Clark and a receiving RB available to Manning.

 
If anything, Gonzo looks like the odd man out. Garcon has a better frame to become a full time starter on the outside and Collie is looking like a great WR3. I don't see where Gonzo fits in.
:thumbup: Seems to me Gonzo is at best 5th or 6th option in that offense behind Wayne, Clark, Garcon, Collie, and maybe even Addai.
Garcon, Collie, Gonzalez? To me, their value collectively is reduced because it is NOT clear how this will play out. Will this become like NO where no player is reliable because of how much the ball is spread around? Also, Manning is not a young player so you have to consider that when valuing these young IND WRs in dynasty.
:lmao: I agree. Each person may feel good about their projections about each player's talent and role, but that projection has to be discounted because there is a high risk of being wrong. It's not like projecting that Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark will be the top two options in IND.In situations like this, I usually find myself trying to get the cheapest person involved in the messy situation and hope he breaks through and takes the role. Sounds like it will be Gonzo, who I'll try to add very cheaply. Otherwise, I'll stay away.
 
If you are saying that Garcon will start (in lieu of Collie) along with Gonzales if Wayne is out of the equation I suppose that would be a safe assumption.
But who do you think would play the WR1 position and why?
Well as I stated back in my first post that scenario would play out in training camp and preseason. Besides, when Wayne was on the left and Marvin was on the right who was the #1? That's right, Marvin. The defacto #1 will be decided by Peyton irregardless as to which side of the field the receiver lines up on.
sort of. The #1 is whichever WR has the best chance of catching a ball, that's usually Wayne but Peyton throws it around enough and can find the most open man easily enough that there isn't a #1 default overall. The reason Garcon has done so well lately is he gets open against his defender. As opposed to the QBs who don't have the ability to check down and see the whole field as well as he does - which is everyone.
 
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DoubleG said:
Gonzalez and Garcon are the two competing for the WR2 spot - and it seems that many people are quick to forget that Gonzo had won that job coming into this season. Gonzo (pre-injury) was as fast as Garcon and has much better hands. His catch % in 2008 was the 2nd highest in the AFC behind Welker.

Anyone automatically pencilling in Garcon as the starter and simply projecting his stats upward from this season may be deeply disappointed. I don't own either player in any league, but if I had Garcon, even in a dynasty league I woul either hold or sell high, but certainly not buy (not in the WR22-26 range), as him starting and getting significant touches is hardly given.
The Garcon who lost the starting job is not even close to the Garcon of today. He is perhaps the most improved player in the league and he is faster than Gonzalez (especially in actual game speed). Garcon is much stronger too. His route running is eons better now than at the beginning of the season. He has good enough hands, but needs to focus more and that part of his game also improved as the season went on. Stats don't factor into my opinion. I just think Garcon right now is better than Gonzalez and he has just started to tap into his potential. That and his much better big play ability tells me Garcon starts next year.
We could round and round on this. First off, there's a whole bunch of subjectivity in your post. Let me suggest some other stats that might want to be considered:

Garcon - 47 receptions on 88 targets. Gonzalez had 57 receptions on 78 targets in 2008...and Marvin Harrison had 100 targets in 2008.

Garcon had a catch% of 53.4% of targets - that was 79th amoung WRs in 2009. In 2008, Gonzo's catch % was 73.1% - top 5 of WRs with at least 30 receptions. Suggesting that Garcon's hands are "good enough" is being a little generous in my opinion. Most starting WRs in the league had better hands than he did in 2009.

According to Profootball Focus (here) Garcon, in terms of their grading system was ranked 92nd in overall rating for WRs this past year. In 2008 Gonzo graded out in the top 50. Keep in mind both WRs were in their 2nd year at the time of those grades.

Garcon had 4 TDs in 2009 - Gonzo had 4 TDs in 2008. The difference is that Harrison, Wayne and Clark were all still playing in 2008. Garcon only had Wayne and Clark to beat out for catches and TDs.

Both are the same height, and virtually the same speed (at least prior to Gonzales' injury). Garcon is 17 lbs. heavier.

Don't get me wrong. Garcon is developing into a nice WR - but to suggest that he will easily take over the starting spot from Gonzo next year might be overly optomistic. Again, I hold no dog in this fight (other than Manning) - so I couldn't care less who starts. I just calls 'em likes I see's 'em.
You seem to be infatuated with Anthony Gonzalez's stellar performance and high catch % as a slot receiver for the Colts, and keep relying on his catch % as a kind of barometer for how effective Gonzo would be in making the transition to flanker. I covered a great deal of this ground already about 25 pages up thread, back in December.The gist of it is that Garcon is NOT seeking to take Gonzo's spot in the offense, but rather Harrison's. Yet you keep arguing that Garcon has to beat out Gonzo to take the outside WR role opposite Reggie Wayne. The only time they were competing to take over the WR2 position, a/k/a Marvin Harrison's old role as flanker, was back in training camp prior to the regular season. Gonzo had been ear-marked to take over the position, and Manning even worked privately with Gonzalez one-on-one in the offseason to speed up the learning curve, and better prepare Gonzo for the expected move going into 2009. However, Garcon became a 'fly in the ointment' for Gonzo when he showed up light years ahead of schedule (developmentally) and appeared ready to take on the flanker position way ahead of everyone's expectations or the Colts imagined time table. Suddenly at the eleventh hour in August of last year all bets were off and the situation became more fluid than anyone could ever have imagined. Gonzo may very well have held an upper hand in this battle in August of 2009, but it was clear that Garcon's skill set was better suited to the flanker position, and Gonzo's sudden injury settled the matter and cleared up any potential logjam at the flanker position. Since then Garcon has rewarded the Colts faith in him, and Collie has filled in admirably in Gonzalez's old role out of the slot. It is unlikely as well as unneccessary to continue the experiment of moving Gonzalez to the outside now that Garcon has shown so much ability and enjoyed a full season's worth of success on the outside (where his skills are best suited). The most logical thing for the Colts to do going forward is to allow Garcon to continue to grow and flourish in his role opposite Wayne on the outside. I would be happy to place a wager with you that this is how the Colts proceed in 2010 (barring any injury to Garcon).

Part of the problem in you're analysis is an over reliance upon catch% as a barometer of what makes a good starting WR in the NFL. Don't get me wrong, it is important, but it loses its importance when you start comparing slot receivers to WRs who run deeper routes on the outside, and you're not really comparing 'apples to apples' when you compare Gonzalez's catch % to Garcon's. Additionally, Garcon essentially red-shirted his 1st season with the Colts, so while you're correct in saying this is his 2nd season in the NFL, you're also making an 'apples to oranges' comparison every time you try to equate Gonzo's 2nd season with Garcon's. For all intents and purposes this is Garcon's 1st season as a starter and he is playing a different position than Gonzalez (or Collie for that matter); and Garcon is doing a phenomenal job, making a pretty big transition to go from Div III to starting flanker for one of the NFL’s premier passing attacks led by a perfectionist at the top of his game in Peyton Manning. Rather than Garcon, if you are going to compare Gonzo's catch % to anyone's then you need to compare it with Collie's, since both player's relevant statistics were accumulated from the slot, rather than the flanker position.

But back to catch % for a moment... Maybe your over reliance upon this stat explains the confusion here. If you could judge a WR simply by catch %, then Gonzo's one of the greatest of all time, and he must be better than future HOF'er Marvin Harrison. After all Gonzo's catch % of 71% in 2008 beats any of Harrison's that I can find (which was traditionally around 60%). From the linked post above:

Obviously Harrison is a HOF caliber WR and Garcon is only in his 2nd year in the NFL, and 1st season as a starter. Therefore if you want an explanation for his sub-60% catch%, then I would suggest it probably has something to do with a young player’s learning curve, rather than proof that Gonzalez or Collie are better receivers...for right now I’m not as concerned about catch%, as I am about just seeing growth and signs of improvement as Garcon learns the position and develops a rapport with Manning. Happily that appears to be what we are seeing and Polian has come out repeatedly and indicated that Garcon is on schedule or exceeding the Colts expectations for his development...
You should be comparing Garcon's numbers with Harrison's rather than Gonzo's, and I would say Garcon in his 1st season as a starter being around 53% is not a very big concern. Especially when you consider Harrison was closer to 60%, even in his prime. Give Garcon another year or two of seasoning and we will likely see improvement here, although it will never approach 70%, because it's production out of the flanker position rather than the slot.
 
It's a really tough dilemma what to do with Garcon, but I am seriously leaning towards selling him high. The discussion here has been really helpful. That's what makes FBG so awesome, after all. I think I'll aim to upgrade my RB position by trading him soon.

 
if i knew where to look i would, but what is gonzo's contract currently? any chances of him going somewhere else considering the two rooks for the colts performing so well this season?

 
if i knew where to look i would, but what is gonzo's contract currently? any chances of him going somewhere else considering the two rooks for the colts performing so well this season?
Rotoworld: 7/25/2007: Signed a five-year, $7.5 million contract. The deal includes $5.4 million guaranteed. Another $2.8 million is available through incentives. 2009: $460,000, 2010: $550,000, 2011: $650,000, 2012: Free AgentBasically they have no reason to cut or trade any of them.Only possibility would be if like Garcon is MVP of the Super Bowl and demands a new contract.
 
if i knew where to look i would, but what is gonzo's contract currently? any chances of him going somewhere else considering the two rooks for the colts performing so well this season?
Rotoworld: 7/25/2007: Signed a five-year, $7.5 million contract. The deal includes $5.4 million guaranteed. Another $2.8 million is available through incentives. 2009: $460,000, 2010: $550,000, 2011: $650,000, 2012: Free AgentBasically they have no reason to cut or trade any of them.Only possibility would be if like Garcon is MVP of the Super Bowl and demands a new contract.
ty for this. kind of what i thought, but wasn't sure.
 
With Warner likely retiring Friday, I am thinking Wells' value goes up.Agree??
Tough to say, imo. His involvement in the O will probably increase, but there may be fewer sustained (and scoring) drives with Leinart and possibly more guys in the box to stop the run game. Potentially, no Warner could negatively impact his yards per carry. And while no Warner should mean a higher percentage of touches for Beanie, the number of touches to go around on O could be cut down a touch as well. -Beanie is a guy thats value was already on the rise with how he closed last year, but I'm not so sold that no Warner in town makes his value spike even more.
 
Gonzalez and Garcon are the two competing for the WR2 spot - and it seems that many people are quick to forget that Gonzo had won that job coming into this season. Gonzo (pre-injury) was as fast as Garcon and has much better hands. His catch % in 2008 was the 2nd highest in the AFC behind Welker.

Anyone automatically pencilling in Garcon as the starter and simply projecting his stats upward from this season may be deeply disappointed. I don't own either player in any league, but if I had Garcon, even in a dynasty league I woul either hold or sell high, but certainly not buy (not in the WR22-26 range), as him starting and getting significant touches is hardly given.
The Garcon who lost the starting job is not even close to the Garcon of today. He is perhaps the most improved player in the league and he is faster than Gonzalez (especially in actual game speed). Garcon is much stronger too. His route running is eons better now than at the beginning of the season. He has good enough hands, but needs to focus more and that part of his game also improved as the season went on. Stats don't factor into my opinion. I just think Garcon right now is better than Gonzalez and he has just started to tap into his potential. That and his much better big play ability tells me Garcon starts next year.
We could round and round on this. First off, there's a whole bunch of subjectivity in your post. Let me suggest some other stats that might want to be considered:

Garcon - 47 receptions on 88 targets. Gonzalez had 57 receptions on 78 targets in 2008...and Marvin Harrison had 100 targets in 2008.

Garcon had a catch% of 53.4% of targets - that was 79th amoung WRs in 2009. In 2008, Gonzo's catch % was 73.1% - top 5 of WRs with at least 30 receptions. Suggesting that Garcon's hands are "good enough" is being a little generous in my opinion. Most starting WRs in the league had better hands than he did in 2009.

According to Profootball Focus (here) Garcon, in terms of their grading system was ranked 92nd in overall rating for WRs this past year. In 2008 Gonzo graded out in the top 50. Keep in mind both WRs were in their 2nd year at the time of those grades.

Garcon had 4 TDs in 2009 - Gonzo had 4 TDs in 2008. The difference is that Harrison, Wayne and Clark were all still playing in 2008. Garcon only had Wayne and Clark to beat out for catches and TDs.

Both are the same height, and virtually the same speed (at least prior to Gonzales' injury). Garcon is 17 lbs. heavier.

Don't get me wrong. Garcon is developing into a nice WR - but to suggest that he will easily take over the starting spot from Gonzo next year might be overly optomistic. Again, I hold no dog in this fight (other than Manning) - so I couldn't care less who starts. I just calls 'em likes I see's 'em.
You seem to be infatuated with Anthony Gonzalez's stellar performance and high catch % as a slot receiver for the Colts, and keep relying on his catch % as a kind of barometer for how effective Gonzo would be in making the transition to flanker. I covered a great deal of this ground already about 25 pages up thread, back in December.The gist of it is that Garcon is NOT seeking to take Gonzo's spot in the offense, but rather Harrison's. Yet you keep arguing that Garcon has to beat out Gonzo to take the outside WR role opposite Reggie Wayne. The only time they were competing to take over the WR2 position, a/k/a Marvin Harrison's old role as flanker, was back in training camp prior to the regular season. Gonzo had been ear-marked to take over the position, and Manning even worked privately with Gonzalez one-on-one in the offseason to speed up the learning curve, and better prepare Gonzo for the expected move going into 2009. However, Garcon became a 'fly in the ointment' for Gonzo when he showed up light years ahead of schedule (developmentally) and appeared ready to take on the flanker position way ahead of everyone's expectations or the Colts imagined time table. Suddenly at the eleventh hour in August of last year all bets were off and the situation became more fluid than anyone could ever have imagined. Gonzo may very well have held an upper hand in this battle in August of 2009, but it was clear that Garcon's skill set was better suited to the flanker position, and Gonzo's sudden injury settled the matter and cleared up any potential logjam at the flanker position. Since then Garcon has rewarded the Colts faith in him, and Collie has filled in admirably in Gonzalez's old role out of the slot. It is unlikely as well as unneccessary to continue the experiment of moving Gonzalez to the outside now that Garcon has shown so much ability and enjoyed a full season's worth of success on the outside (where his skills are best suited). The most logical thing for the Colts to do going forward is to allow Garcon to continue to grow and flourish in his role opposite Wayne on the outside. I would be happy to place a wager with you that this is how the Colts proceed in 2010 (barring any injury to Garcon).

Part of the problem in you're analysis is an over reliance upon catch% as a barometer of what makes a good starting WR in the NFL. Don't get me wrong, it is important, but it loses its importance when you start comparing slot receivers to WRs who run deeper routes on the outside, and you're not really comparing 'apples to apples' when you compare Gonzalez's catch % to Garcon's. Additionally, Garcon essentially red-shirted his 1st season with the Colts, so while you're correct in saying this is his 2nd season in the NFL, you're also making an 'apples to oranges' comparison every time you try to equate Gonzo's 2nd season with Garcon's. For all intents and purposes this is Garcon's 1st season as a starter and he is playing a different position than Gonzalez (or Collie for that matter); and Garcon is doing a phenomenal job, making a pretty big transition to go from Div III to starting flanker for one of the NFL’s premier passing attacks led by a perfectionist at the top of his game in Peyton Manning. Rather than Garcon, if you are going to compare Gonzo's catch % to anyone's then you need to compare it with Collie's, since both player's relevant statistics were accumulated from the slot, rather than the flanker position.

But back to catch % for a moment... Maybe your over reliance upon this stat explains the confusion here. If you could judge a WR simply by catch %, then Gonzo's one of the greatest of all time, and he must be better than future HOF'er Marvin Harrison. After all Gonzo's catch % of 71% in 2008 beats any of Harrison's that I can find (which was traditionally around 60%). From the linked post above:

Obviously Harrison is a HOF caliber WR and Garcon is only in his 2nd year in the NFL, and 1st season as a starter. Therefore if you want an explanation for his sub-60% catch%, then I would suggest it probably has something to do with a young player’s learning curve, rather than proof that Gonzalez or Collie are better receivers...for right now I’m not as concerned about catch%, as I am about just seeing growth and signs of improvement as Garcon learns the position and develops a rapport with Manning. Happily that appears to be what we are seeing and Polian has come out repeatedly and indicated that Garcon is on schedule or exceeding the Colts expectations for his development...
You should be comparing Garcon's numbers with Harrison's rather than Gonzo's, and I would say Garcon in his 1st season as a starter being around 53% is not a very big concern. Especially when you consider Harrison was closer to 60%, even in his prime. Give Garcon another year or two of seasoning and we will likely see improvement here, although it will never approach 70%, because it's production out of the flanker position rather than the slot.
Let's just say it's really easy to look good when Peyton is throwing you the ball and leave it at that. Neither are true #1'a and both will produce that way as long as Reggie and Clark are around.
 
Let's just say it's really easy to look good when Peyton is throwing you the ball and leave it at that. Neither are true #1'a and both will produce that way as long as Reggie and Clark are around.
Well that's kind of the point isn't it? If Peyton Manning weren't the QB and we weren't talking about a Colts offense that has been cemented in place and runs like a well oiled machine, then the opportunity being presented wouldn't be worth mentioning. We aren't talking about the 2nd coming of Jerry Rice here, but since we are talking about fantasy football then there is some present value as well as a good deal of potential value to be gained if one of these guys ever becomes the 2nd option in Manning's arsenal...
 
With Warner likely retiring Friday, I am thinking Wells' value goes up.Agree??
Maybe. Wells is looking like a good runner, but he's limited in the passing game and Hightower should continue to vulture a lot of the RB receptions. I just don't think Beanie's upside is much higher than a low end RB1/high end RB2, which is basically his cost at the moment. I don't see him taking that next step and becoming a Peterson/Jackson/MJD.
 
With Warner likely retiring Friday, I am thinking Wells' value goes up.Agree??
Maybe. Wells is looking like a good runner, but he's limited in the passing game and Hightower should continue to vulture a lot of the RB receptions. I just don't think Beanie's upside is much higher than a low end RB1/high end RB2, which is basically his cost at the moment. I don't see him taking that next step and becoming a Peterson/Jackson/MJD.
On the flip side, if you're a Wells owner, is this a good time to sell? If so, what kind of talent do you expect in return?In my primary 16 team league, I have CJ3, Beanie, Donald Brown and Thomas Jones (who I will likely re-sign as an RFA). I also have 1.04. Wondering if I should be looking to sell Wells and replace him with whoever falls to 1.04, or use some combo to upgrade elsewhere.My main problem area is QB, right now I only have Ryan on roster. In a non-PPR, I have Sidney Rice, Holmes, Driver, Avery, Maclin, Keller, Cook, and Floyd.
 
corpcow said:
EBF said:
Rodeojones said:
With Warner likely retiring Friday, I am thinking Wells' value goes up.Agree??
Maybe. Wells is looking like a good runner, but he's limited in the passing game and Hightower should continue to vulture a lot of the RB receptions. I just don't think Beanie's upside is much higher than a low end RB1/high end RB2, which is basically his cost at the moment. I don't see him taking that next step and becoming a Peterson/Jackson/MJD.
On the flip side, if you're a Wells owner, is this a good time to sell? If so, what kind of talent do you expect in return?In my primary 16 team league, I have CJ3, Beanie, Donald Brown and Thomas Jones (who I will likely re-sign as an RFA). I also have 1.04. Wondering if I should be looking to sell Wells and replace him with whoever falls to 1.04, or use some combo to upgrade elsewhere.My main problem area is QB, right now I only have Ryan on roster. In a non-PPR, I have Sidney Rice, Holmes, Driver, Avery, Maclin, Keller, Cook, and Floyd.
The problem is, who do you trade him for? There really aren't that many bankable dynasty RBs right now. MJD, Johnson, and Peterson are elite and young. Ray Rice and Jonathan Stewart look like they'll join that group soon. Mendenhall, Greene, Felix, and Charles have a chance. Gore, DeAngelo, Jackson, and Turner are good, but how many years are left in the tank? When you get down to it, there aren't that many desirable targets at RB. So while it might be a good time to move Beanie, I think you'll have to package him with something to get one of the top guys.
 
corpcow said:
I also have 1.04. Wondering if I should be looking to sell Wells and replace him with whoever falls to 1.04.... My main problem area is QB
I think Wells is a better prospect than all next year's rookie RBs let alone who's left at 1.4. I would much rather sell 1.4, and usually that high a 1st can get you a legit #1 QB.
 
EBF said:
Rodeojones said:
With Warner likely retiring Friday, I am thinking Wells' value goes up.Agree??
Maybe. Wells is looking like a good runner, but he's limited in the passing game and Hightower should continue to vulture a lot of the RB receptions. I just don't think Beanie's upside is much higher than a low end RB1/high end RB2, which is basically his cost at the moment. I don't see him taking that next step and becoming a Peterson/Jackson/MJD.
How about Fitz? It seems that while his value shouldn't drop, his production most likely will. A look back at the last 3 years during the games Warner was out and Fitz's production wasn't too good with Leinart at QB. Subtract Boldin from their lineup and it's got to affect him even more.
 
corpcow said:
I also have 1.04. Wondering if I should be looking to sell Wells and replace him with whoever falls to 1.04.... My main problem area is QB
I think Wells is a better prospect than all next year's rookie RBs let alone who's left at 1.4. I would much rather sell 1.4, and usually that high a 1st can get you a legit #1 QB.
I agree and at least in my league a 1.4 rookie pick would net you a top 10 QB like Roethlisberger or Romo if the guy already has another good QB.
 
EBF said:
Rodeojones said:
With Warner likely retiring Friday, I am thinking Wells' value goes up.Agree??
Maybe. Wells is looking like a good runner, but he's limited in the passing game and Hightower should continue to vulture a lot of the RB receptions. I just don't think Beanie's upside is much higher than a low end RB1/high end RB2, which is basically his cost at the moment. I don't see him taking that next step and becoming a Peterson/Jackson/MJD.
How about Fitz? It seems that while his value shouldn't drop, his production most likely will. A look back at the last 3 years during the games Warner was out and Fitz's production wasn't too good with Leinart at QB. Subtract Boldin from their lineup and it's got to affect him even more.
I'm a Fitz owner and it concerns me a little bit, but I am still confident he'll get me a consistent number of points on a weekly basis. I tend to think the Cardinals will think about drafting a QB this year, then giving Leinart one more chance to prove himself. If he doesn't, in comes the rookie.
 
I don't think there's been any kicker love in this thread, but for the sake of Dynasty, is it wrong that I'm feeling very good about having locked up Garrett Hartley? I know he had an early hiccup against Washington, but the way he came on and drilled the GWFG vs. Minny was great to see. Barring a super bowl implosion, he looks like the guy in N.O.

-Young, strong leg

-Will kick a MINIMUM of 9 games/yr. in a dome

-High powered offense that moves the ball between the 20's

I know kickers are mostly pointless and hard to predict, but doesn't Hartley at least have better odds of becoming a Top 5 fantasy kicker than a name drawn out of a hat? OR, if you are a kicker-hater, can these thoughts be used to SELL Hartley to the believers, or at least toss him in to seal another deal? Has there been a kicker historically worth going out and getting (Akers/Vinatieri/Elam) who consistently outperformed his peers while in his prime, or is it truly a crap shoot like we are told? (and yes, I'm bored.)

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I don't think there's been any kicker love in this thread, but for the sake of Dynasty, is it wrong that I'm feeling very good about having locked up Garrett Hartley? I know he had an early hiccup against Washington, but the way he came on and drilled the GWFG vs. Minny was great to see. Barring a super bowl implosion, he looks like the guy in N.O. -Young, strong leg-Will kick a MINIMUM of 9 games/yr. in a dome-High powered offense that moves the ball between the 20'sI know kickers are mostly pointless and hard to predict, but doesn't Hartley at least have better odds of becoming a Top 5 fantasy kicker than a name drawn out of a hat? OR, if you are a kicker-hater, can these thoughts be used to SELL Hartley to the believers, or at least toss him in to seal another deal? Has there been a kicker historically worth going out and getting (Akers/Vinatieri/Elam) who consistently outperformed his peers while in his prime, or is it truly a crap shoot like we are told? (and yes, I'm bored.)
Honestly, I've never seeen a kicker traded in any of my leagues.
 
GreatLakesMike said:
MountainMan0726 said:
I don't think there's been any kicker love in this thread, but for the sake of Dynasty, is it wrong that I'm feeling very good about having locked up Garrett Hartley? I know he had an early hiccup against Washington, but the way he came on and drilled the GWFG vs. Minny was great to see. Barring a super bowl implosion, he looks like the guy in N.O. -Young, strong leg-Will kick a MINIMUM of 9 games/yr. in a dome-High powered offense that moves the ball between the 20'sI know kickers are mostly pointless and hard to predict, but doesn't Hartley at least have better odds of becoming a Top 5 fantasy kicker than a name drawn out of a hat? OR, if you are a kicker-hater, can these thoughts be used to SELL Hartley to the believers, or at least toss him in to seal another deal? Has there been a kicker historically worth going out and getting (Akers/Vinatieri/Elam) who consistently outperformed his peers while in his prime, or is it truly a crap shoot like we are told? (and yes, I'm bored.)
Honestly, I've never seeen a kicker traded in any of my leagues.
Kickers are so unbelievably worthless in any trade scenario. Just keep him if you like him - don't bother trying to trade him.
 
F&L, I'm really interested on your opinion on Vick and his value going forward. With Warner retiring, my QBs took a huge hit...Currently rostering Peyton, Leinart, and Warner in a league that you can start 1-3 QBs.

Scoring for QBs is:

Passing TDs: 5-8 pt depending on length

.084 per passing yard, 3 pts bonus for every 250 yds

-1 per sack, -3 per INT

.143 per rushing yard

Thanks in advance, looking forward to your response once again

 
How about Fitz? It seems that while his value shouldn't drop, his production most likely will. A look back at the last 3 years during the games Warner was out and Fitz's production wasn't too good with Leinart at QB. Subtract Boldin from their lineup and it's got to affect him even more.
Fitz's value without Warner was discussed a couple of months ago. I don't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head, but if you throw out his rookie season, Fitz has been a 90/1200 kind of guy with "Not Kurt Warner" at QB. And when you remember that "Not Kurt Warner", in Arizona's case, means "Josh McCown, John Navarre, and a rookie Matt Leinart", that's pretty darn impressive. Assuming "seasoned veteran Matt Leinart" is better than "green rookie Matt Leinart", I don't see anything wrong with banking on 90/1200/8 type numbers next season (better if Boldin's gone). That's still a top 10 WR. Heck, that's basically Roddy White in a nutshell.
 
How about Fitz? It seems that while his value shouldn't drop, his production most likely will. A look back at the last 3 years during the games Warner was out and Fitz's production wasn't too good with Leinart at QB. Subtract Boldin from their lineup and it's got to affect him even more.
Fitz's value without Warner was discussed a couple of months ago. I don't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head, but if you throw out his rookie season, Fitz has been a 90/1200 kind of guy with "Not Kurt Warner" at QB. And when you remember that "Not Kurt Warner", in Arizona's case, means "Josh McCown, John Navarre, and a rookie Matt Leinart", that's pretty darn impressive. Assuming "seasoned veteran Matt Leinart" is better than "green rookie Matt Leinart", I don't see anything wrong with banking on 90/1200/8 type numbers next season (better if Boldin's gone). That's still a top 10 WR. Heck, that's basically Roddy White in a nutshell.
I'm not sure I would exactly call Leinart a "seasoned veteran" right now.
 
How about Fitz? It seems that while his value shouldn't drop, his production most likely will. A look back at the last 3 years during the games Warner was out and Fitz's production wasn't too good with Leinart at QB. Subtract Boldin from their lineup and it's got to affect him even more.
Fitz's value without Warner was discussed a couple of months ago. I don't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head, but if you throw out his rookie season, Fitz has been a 90/1200 kind of guy with "Not Kurt Warner" at QB. And when you remember that "Not Kurt Warner", in Arizona's case, means "Josh McCown, John Navarre, and a rookie Matt Leinart", that's pretty darn impressive. Assuming "seasoned veteran Matt Leinart" is better than "green rookie Matt Leinart", I don't see anything wrong with banking on 90/1200/8 type numbers next season (better if Boldin's gone). That's still a top 10 WR. Heck, that's basically Roddy White in a nutshell.
From another thread:
Just Win Baby said:
I'm going to just focus on Fitz for now. This discussion will also apply to others in the offense in different ways, but that's for another post/discussion.There are really two issues to be considered here with regard to the impact on Fitz's performance going forward. First, how will his targets in 2010 and beyond compare to the targets he has received in recent years? Second, how will his production per target compare to what it was in recent years?I looked up some data for Fitz and Leinart. Given that it's hard to account for times when Leinart relieved another QB vs. when he was pulled for another QB, I just chose all games in which both played and Leinart had 20 or more passing attempts and compared them to all of Fitz's other games (regular season and postseason) from 2006 to 2009, since Leinart joined the team in 2006. Here's the data:Games in which Fitzgerald played and Leinart had 20+ pass attempts:12 games, 97 targets, 60 receptions, 742 receiving yards (12.4 ypr), 4 TDsPer 16 games, this scales to 129 targets, 80 receptions, 989 receiving yards, 5 TDsAll other games (regular season and postseason) played by Fitzgerald from 2006 to 2009:54 games, 533 targets, 345 receptions, 4847 receiving yards (14 ypr), 46 TDsPer 16 games, this scales to 158 targets, 102 receptions, 1436 receiving yards, 14 TDsObviously there is an enormous difference. This suggests that Leinart will indeed have a negative impact on Fitz's numbers. With Leinart, Fitz averaged fewer targets and his production per target was lower.Of course, one might argue that Leinart has a chance to be better this year, especially since if he is going to be the starter he will have the chance to work all offseason and preseason with Fitz and the rest of the first team offense. But can that make up this huge gap? I seriously doubt it.And I'd be concerned that with Warner out and Leinart in, the offense will shift to a more balanced attack, with more running and less passing. Check out where the offense ranked in passing and rushing attempts over the past 4 seasons:2006 - #7 in passing attempts, #26 in rushing attempts2007 - #2 in passing attempts, #25 in rushing attempts2008 - #2 in passing attempts, #32 in rushing attempts2009 - #3 in passing attempts, #32 in rushing attemptsI expect Whisenhunt to adjust to a more balanced attack going forward, given that he will no longer have one of the best passing QBs in the NFL.I suppose if the Cardinals traded for McNabb or somehow otherwise obtained a potential top 10 caliber QB, Fitz could be alright. But otherwise, I fully expect him to dropoff from his performance in recent years. His talent hasn't changed, and he will still certainly be a top 20 WR, maybe still a top 10 WR. But if I had him in a dynasty league, I'd strongly consider trading him if he would still bring similar value to what he would have brought last year.
 
With Warner likely retiring Friday, I am thinking Wells' value goes up.Agree??
Maybe. Wells is looking like a good runner, but he's limited in the passing game and Hightower should continue to vulture a lot of the RB receptions. I just don't think Beanie's upside is much higher than a low end RB1/high end RB2, which is basically his cost at the moment. I don't see him taking that next step and becoming a Peterson/Jackson/MJD.
How about Fitz? It seems that while his value shouldn't drop, his production most likely will. A look back at the last 3 years during the games Warner was out and Fitz's production wasn't too good with Leinart at QB. Subtract Boldin from their lineup and it's got to affect him even more.
I'm a Fitz owner and it concerns me a little bit, but I am still confident he'll get me a consistent number of points on a weekly basis. I tend to think the Cardinals will think about drafting a QB this year, then giving Leinart one more chance to prove himself. If he doesn't, in comes the rookie.
They'll need a backup even if Leinart shocks the world and learns to play the game. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see LeFevour in the 3rd. Give Leinart the start in 2010 and if he doesn't lock up the starting gig, it's a competition in 2011.
 
They'll need a backup even if Leinart shocks the world and learns to play the game. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see LeFevour in the 3rd. Give Leinart the start in 2010 and if he doesn't lock up the starting gig, it's a competition in 2011.
St. Pierre is a guy to consider in deeper leagues. Don't forget he was drafted by the Steelers when Whisenhunt was there, and Whisenhunt brought him over to Arizona. He's already 30 but he could get a chance very soon given the team is now sort of used to winning.
 
thriftyrocker said:
FUBAR said:
They'll need a backup even if Leinart shocks the world and learns to play the game. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see LeFevour in the 3rd. Give Leinart the start in 2010 and if he doesn't lock up the starting gig, it's a competition in 2011.
St. Pierre is a guy to consider in deeper leagues. Don't forget he was drafted by the Steelers when Whisenhunt was there, and Whisenhunt brought him over to Arizona. He's already 30 but he could get a chance very soon given the team is now sort of used to winning.
St. Pierre will be a free agent. It'll be interesting to see if Arizona resigns him.
 
corpcow said:
SSOG said:
How about Fitz? It seems that while his value shouldn't drop, his production most likely will. A look back at the last 3 years during the games Warner was out and Fitz's production wasn't too good with Leinart at QB. Subtract Boldin from their lineup and it's got to affect him even more.
Fitz's value without Warner was discussed a couple of months ago. I don't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head, but if you throw out his rookie season, Fitz has been a 90/1200 kind of guy with "Not Kurt Warner" at QB. And when you remember that "Not Kurt Warner", in Arizona's case, means "Josh McCown, John Navarre, and a rookie Matt Leinart", that's pretty darn impressive. Assuming "seasoned veteran Matt Leinart" is better than "green rookie Matt Leinart", I don't see anything wrong with banking on 90/1200/8 type numbers next season (better if Boldin's gone). That's still a top 10 WR. Heck, that's basically Roddy White in a nutshell.
I'm not sure I would exactly call Leinart a "seasoned veteran" right now.
Pretty sure SSOG was being a bit facetious. :goodposting:
 
SSOG said:
How about Fitz? It seems that while his value shouldn't drop, his production most likely will. A look back at the last 3 years during the games Warner was out and Fitz's production wasn't too good with Leinart at QB. Subtract Boldin from their lineup and it's got to affect him even more.
Fitz's value without Warner was discussed a couple of months ago. I don't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head, but if you throw out his rookie season, Fitz has been a 90/1200 kind of guy with "Not Kurt Warner" at QB. And when you remember that "Not Kurt Warner", in Arizona's case, means "Josh McCown, John Navarre, and a rookie Matt Leinart", that's pretty darn impressive. Assuming "seasoned veteran Matt Leinart" is better than "green rookie Matt Leinart", I don't see anything wrong with banking on 90/1200/8 type numbers next season (better if Boldin's gone). That's still a top 10 WR. Heck, that's basically Roddy White in a nutshell.
QB play and oppportunity/targets are not the same thing. Almost anyone will have close to 90 receptions a year with the amount of targets fitz receives annually. he is perrenially in the top 5 if not top 3.
 

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