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Dynasty Rankings (8 Viewers)
- Thread starter Fear & Loathing
- Start date
Sorry, the 1350+ years need a * * * when compared to the disaster 85 put up last year, and the severe iffyness of the current offense and the severe iffyness of Palmer's health situation. Once upon a time Cincy's offense was semi-competent. NOW??? Maybe you believe in Palmer more than any evidence has shown you should, but WHY???If you just want to 'assume' past health and numbers into one's fading years, well, Marc Bulger (and his receivers, you'd think) would be a heckuva buy low candidate right now?
THE UNDERCOVER BROTHA
Footballguy
We also can throw last yr out...Anyone think they would start Miles over some cat the just traded a 1st and 3rd for is crazy...
And he sure wasnt about to start over TO. But that was last yr....this yer they come in wanting (supposedly) to run alot of 2te sets and have Bennett a major factor in the passing game. So far thats not happening...
Now we see ROY even with all this extra time with Romo since that was his excuse last yr still is looking nothing special at wr.
Maybe Crayton fit what the boys wanted to do with the double te's and Roy as there BIG PLAY wr but....lets wake up here.
There is nothing BIG PLAY in D aside from Felix..........until.........what we just seen a few weeks ago.
MY EYES ARE OPEN.....and my LEAGUEMATES are stingy...
And he sure wasnt about to start over TO. But that was last yr....this yer they come in wanting (supposedly) to run alot of 2te sets and have Bennett a major factor in the passing game. So far thats not happening...
Now we see ROY even with all this extra time with Romo since that was his excuse last yr still is looking nothing special at wr.
Maybe Crayton fit what the boys wanted to do with the double te's and Roy as there BIG PLAY wr but....lets wake up here.
There is nothing BIG PLAY in D aside from Felix..........until.........what we just seen a few weeks ago.
MY EYES ARE OPEN.....and my LEAGUEMATES are stingy...
Based on what, ancient Palmer nostalgia?
thatguy
Footballguy
Actually Cincy had one of the top offenses in the league in '05 when Palmer threw for 32 TDs. It was not just competent, it was very good. It was also better than semi-competent in '06 and '07. And of course last season Palmer got injured and missed the final 11 games, which, by the way, are the only games he has ever missed due to injury. His health is no more iffy than any other QB in the NFL at this point in time.
We can agree to disagree I have to move on with other stuff right now. But, 2 or 3 years ago is not ancient history and Palmer and Chad are playing like they did then. It took ONE freaking game for you to decide Austin is a top 15 receiver but after 6 weeks you can't see what Cinci has going on this year??? WOW
Football Outsiders had Miles Austin as its number prospect this year. Using their metrics, his production in limited touches was outstanding. They too wondered why the coaching staff stubbornly started Crayton over him. So it's not like no one was high on Austin before the season started.
That being said, I don't think he should be rated above Chad OchoCinco.
That being said, I don't think he should be rated above Chad OchoCinco.
duaneok66
Footballguy
wow, talk about a blast from the past . . . I need to dig up those threads when I need some comedy relief . . .
THE UNDERCOVER BROTHA
Footballguy
Me either..Ocho isnt some TO/HOLT thats about to fall off the cliff. Ocho still a hella talent at wr. But im onboard with the other guy that Miles should be rated higher....But im ok right now as im going to "try" and use that to buy him although thats not helping. Most that have him are high on him.
thatguy
Footballguy
While I disagree with your thinking that Austin should be ranked ahead of Ocho Cinco (in fact I agree with others that the mere idea is insanity) and Crabtree (also pretty out there), I do think SSOG is being far too absolute in stating that Austin will never be a stud. Austin certainly has some talent and good size, and is on a team where his peers at WR have been underwhelming. He seems to have earned the trust of his QB and could very easily become a solid option both going forward this season and beyond. It is certainly possible he develops into a stud. While I don't see it as incredibly likely (I think it's more likely he tops out as a middle-of-the-pack WR2), I definitely won't rule it out as possible.
munchkin
Footballguy
You can't ignore the awful defense that was in the field either. Austin may step up to be more than the "Wang Chung" of WR's, time will tell, but I don't see how one can make the jump to valuing him higher than Ocho based one one game and an NFL special feature. Roy wasn't exactly on the field a lot last year either. There was room for him to step up then as well. I benefited from his big game two weeks ago myself, I hope he turns out to be a player.
Passing offense so far this year? Barely average production. Passing offense the 2 years before that? Garbage! Dallas has the entire Romo era put up butt-kicking numbers in any game they click.
I'm being waaaay too vocal here, and I'll shut up soon, I promise. I didn't necessarily mean to say that Austin is > 85 right now. But BOTH OF THEIR ranks are pretty wacky at this juncture, IMO. 85 has no upside over what he's done so far (which hasn't been all THAT impressive), and Austin is a solid WR2 at worst the way things look right now with a HUGE upside in a quality pass O. They shouldn't be 30 spots apart in any ranking system.
Dallas still has to deal with NFC East defenses for the rest of the year. Redksins twice (who have been good against the pass), Eagles twice, Giants once.Cinci plays.... Pittsburgh.And Austin has had ONE great game this year. One. Isn't it a bit premature to say he's going to have a great year/career?
Tau837
Footballguy
There is a some crazy talk going on in here. It's one thing to be high on Austin... that's fine... but to say he should be ranked higher than Ocho for dynasty purposes is ridiculous.
The fact that this has gone on for a series of posts probably makes it one of the most off base tangents ever in this 96 page thread.
The fact that this has gone on for a series of posts probably makes it one of the most off base tangents ever in this 96 page thread.
I could say exactly the same thing. After 4 years of Austin doing NOTHING in Dallas, he's suddenly going to turn it on? The coaches evaluated Austin head to head against Roy during OTAs... and favored Roy in a landslide. The coaches evaluated Austin head to head against Roy during TCs... and favored Roy in a landslide. The coaches evaluated Austin head to head against Roy in the preseason... and favored Roy in a landslide. The coaches evaluated Austin head to head against Roy through the first four weeks... and favored Roy in a landslide. But, because Austin had a big game in week 5 (while Roy was missing time, I might add), suddenly he's the #1 WR in town? Do you honestly think teams promote their #3 receiver to #1 every time they have a big game?Cincinnati is 50-51-1 over the past 7 years. You'll forgive me if I don't exactly consider that "20 years of absolute disaster". Also, Palmer hasn't finished a season upright since... 2007... and 2006... and 2005.
I picked Austin up before the season. There's a huge difference between a sleeper and a proven All Pro in the prime of his career. Hell, what has Austin demonstrated more than Massaquoi has demonstrated? They both have exactly 1 big game in their careers, but MoMass doesn't have 3 years of awfulness preceding his one big game. I'm not saying everyone should cut Austin immediately, I'm saying it's ludicrous to suggest that Austin is even a top 30 WR based off of one game. If everyone WR who had one big game made the top 30, then there would be 60 WRs in our top 30... which doesn't exactly work out. There has to be some sort of sanity cap in place that says "yeah, Austin had a huge game... but a huge game does not guarantee a huge career".
For any WR currently ranked outside of F&L's top 20, I will confidently state that they will never have a 1350 yard season. I might be wrong 2% of the time... but I'll be right 98% of the time, which is why those guys are ranked outside of the top 20.
What Ochocinco has done so far isn't that impressive? What, you mean four seasons of 1350+ receiving yards? Or are you simply referring to what he's done so far this year? Because if being on pace for 1200 yards and 8 TDs doesn't impress you, that just shows how awesome Ochocinco is, that he could be a top 10 fantasy WR and it's really just another ho-hum season.
My thoughts also. Austin may be a little under-rated by FL et. al., but nobody in their right fantasy mind would put him over OCHO.This kind of talk is why you're not getting taken as seriously as you should. That statement is absolutely absurd. Really, it's one of the crazier things I can recall reading. Please tell me what WOULD be impressive. He's actually been one of the best wr's over the last several years as far as yards go. I'm not on my computer nor do I recall my fbg's password but later I'll pull up the data dominator and show how wrong you are.If Austin, or ANY wr, put up the stats Ocho has had the last several years they would rightfully be considered not only elite but one of the best wr's in the game.
editor47
Footballguy
Child please.
This discussion has turned crazy. Miles Austin has had one great game. How did Qadry Ismail do after his huge game? He's pretty good on ESPN. I mean, he was OK/solid. he wasn't as good as 85 is.
I'd be curious to see a comparison of Ocho against other WRs similar to him and how quickly they declined when they did rather than pointing out he has 3 more good years just becuase TO did. TO is a phsyical freak. A beast. Ocho is a skinny little dude IMO.
This discussion has turned crazy. Miles Austin has had one great game. How did Qadry Ismail do after his huge game? He's pretty good on ESPN. I mean, he was OK/solid. he wasn't as good as 85 is.
I'd be curious to see a comparison of Ocho against other WRs similar to him and how quickly they declined when they did rather than pointing out he has 3 more good years just becuase TO did. TO is a phsyical freak. A beast. Ocho is a skinny little dude IMO.
thekidd2009
Footballguy
Just because Ocho is skinny doesn't mean he's not in great shape. The guy trains like an animal and does have 3 more years in the tank. I'm more concerned with Carson than with Chad.I don't know if anyone has noticed this but when i've watched Carson this year, it seems he has lost some of the zip on his balls. I've seen corners bate him into throws on out patterns for int's. I'm guessing it's due to his elbow injury but either way it's something i've noticed.
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
I've ruined dynasty teams for "upside". It's still a bit of a struggle not to go for the unknown at the expense of the known, but I'm getting better. I know most like to equate "upside" with "talent that'll bust loose one day", but all we can really equate the term to with 100% certainty is "hasn't done much yet". It's like we think the unknown can hit some crazy-high performance level - though if you ask many smitten with the term to define what exactly the "upside" is, they tend toward vagueness. We have 9 gazillion threads around here on 3rd stringers with "upside". How many of those players are really ever going to be impact FF guys, even if they're ever given an opportunity? How many have real, elite talent or pedigree? How many are good footbal players and not just workout warriors?
Admittedly, I don't know a hell of a lot about Miles Austin so I'm not gonna get into the Austion-vs-85 debate. But to use "what upside goes 85 have?" as a negative against Chad is ridiculous. 1300/8 doesn't need upside - it's already there. Sure, Austin (or any player like him) could blossom but the odds are very long against him having the career of a guy like 85.
Admittedly, I don't know a hell of a lot about Miles Austin so I'm not gonna get into the Austion-vs-85 debate. But to use "what upside goes 85 have?" as a negative against Chad is ridiculous. 1300/8 doesn't need upside - it's already there. Sure, Austin (or any player like him) could blossom but the odds are very long against him having the career of a guy like 85.
Banger
Footballguy
He probably traded Ocho for Austin and is trying to justify it. Otherwise the comparisons are ridiculous.
Sebowski
Footballguy
What do you guys think of Lee Evans vs. Andre Caldwell?
Would you take either one for Zach Miller if you were deep at TE? PPR.
Evans has shopw promise when the Bills weren't playing with the head's up their asses. Problem is he is getting older now (28) and his window isn't as big. Caldwell started slow but has really been coming on. Can he be the next Housh in that offense? 100 catches in his reach?
Would you take either one for Zach Miller if you were deep at TE? PPR.
Evans has shopw promise when the Bills weren't playing with the head's up their asses. Problem is he is getting older now (28) and his window isn't as big. Caldwell started slow but has really been coming on. Can he be the next Housh in that offense? 100 catches in his reach?
az_prof
Footballguy
I like both Evans and Caldwell although I haven't had much opportunity to watch Caldwell in action. I also like Zach Miller. I see these three players as having similar value and who you favor would be a matter of personal preference.As far as Evans' age, 28 is not that old. Good receivers play into the 30s so he has at least 3-4 years left, and great players play until they're 35. The fact that he plays on such a bad team with bad QBs is a concern. It's hard to rely on him as a WR3 because of inconsistency that is really a reflection of the team more than his play. But the same is true of Miller. Also, there really are not many elite TEs who year after year are top 5 producers. There is a lot of turn over at the position in terms of fantasy. Is Miller in the same category as Gonzalez or Gates or even Witten or Clarke? I doubt it.If I were deep at TE I think I would rather have Evans or Caldwell. Which one? I would prefer Evans but it really depends on your preference.
EBF
Footballguy
I would take either of those WRs over Miller. TEs aren't worth much in dynasty unless they're studs and Miller doesn't have the upside to reach the elite level. There are so many solid TEs in the league that a merely "good" one has modest value. As for Caldwell vs. Evans, I think it's an interesting debate. Evans is a solid player with some quality seasons under his belt. From a pure talent standpoint he definitely gets the edge over Caldwell, but his production has been tremendously inconsistent throughout his entire career. Will he ever be a reliable weekly starter? Caldwell is less proven, but he's in a better situation. Palmer will be around for a while. Ochocinco and Coles are both over 30. Caldwell could be starting there within 1-2 years and we all know what Housh (a mediocre talent) did with that role. Caldwell seems to have more upside at the moment.
Sebowski
Footballguy
Thanks. The bolded is exactly what I was thinking. I have Cooley and Vernon. Is Miller going to be that much better than them? On the flipside at WR I have Fitz, Roddy, Sims, Avery, Britt, so I don't really need a WR either.
stevegamer
Footballguy
You're right - it's not close. However, you're wrong in thinking it's Cincy. I'd like to introduce you to a team you may have heard of, the Detroit Lions. They of 1 playoff win since before the Kennedy administration, and the worst single season in the history of pro football, which was way, way back in the depths of my memory, last year.
AND you can also make the case that "snacks" extra weight has been horrible for him. It did not help him to become a redzone threat and in fact he gets removed for a horrible RB Brown. Slaton has been a colossal bust this year and the extra weight took his one thing he had...... explosion. I can't figure out why you came in and posted this right now? He has been completely under performing on what the Slaton fans thought he'd be.
thatguy
Footballguy
First of all, since when did 1350 yards become the measuring stick for stud WR? There are many paths to studliness, and of course many different thresholds of what constitutes studliness. 1350 yards is indeed tough to do for a WR, but what about 1100 yards and 10 TDs? Would you consider those studly numbers? 1200 yards and 8 TDs? I don't have an answer, as I don't really have a good idea of when we start calling a player a stud, but I do know that the barometer is not as simple as 1350 or more receiving yards = stud.Second, you do realize you're saying odds are only one of the 54 WR's F & L has ranked after 20 will ever top 1350 yards. I see Crabtree doing it at some point, and probably often, in his career, so we're already near 2%. I think Nicks has a good chance to accomplish this at some point. Lucky for you Sims-Walker was recently bumped into the top 20, because barring injury he could very likely surpass this threshold as well (and I assume you'd have made this claim weeks ago when he was still outside the top 20). Anyway, after those two, there are none that I necessarily think have a better than even chance to accomplish this feat, but I'm sure a handful will step up and either get close to, or surpass, that mark at some point in their respective careers.ETA: What I'm saying is, let's see you put your money where your mouth is. I get the current 54 player field, and I say that 2 or more of those players will top 1350 receiving yards at some point in their respective careers. So as not to make this bet last forever, let's give it 7 years. If 1 or less top 1350, you win. If 2 or more top 1350, I win.
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Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
Odd timing, indeed. Slaton is a change of pace / third-down back masquerading as a feature back. He's averaging 3.0 yards per carry, which makes Matt Forte look like a big-play threat in comparison. The "Snacks" nickname was made in jest, with all of the supporters claiming that it would help take his game to new heights. Furthermore, I haven't the foggiest notion of why Slaton supporters want to keep comparing him to Chris Johnson. It's like dealing with a man wearing a bad toupee. What can you say to him other than, "Stop that. It's embarrassing."?
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
I'm not sure who I like more, but I'm at a loss to see how it's so clear cut that you'd have a go at someone on either side...Slaton: 22 games, 2215 yards, 13 TDs, 4.3ypc, 9.0yprJohnson: 21 games, 2210 yards, 13 TDs, 5.3ypc, 6.5yprOr do actual NFL games not count?
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
Oh, goody. More comparisons of Slaton and Johnson.One is the centerpiece of his team's offense and among the three or four most talented runners in the game. The other is a fumbling machine averaging 3.0 yards per carry and having his responsibilities taken away piece by piece. One is second only to Adrian Peterson in rushing yardage. The other is 28th in rushing yardage -- behind such luminaries as Cadillac Williams, Ricky Williams, and Julius Jones. At what point can we put this issue to rest? It's a Tyson-Spinks K.O.
The problem is that wdcrob was forgetting that over the off season Slaton developed quite the little craving for little Debbie Snack cakes....Give it this year and those yardage numbers will be a laugher...
Good point. See what happens when I get keyboard diarrhea?
jdoggydogg
Footballguy
This is where fantasy football is at odds with reality football. Simply looking at Slaton's and Johnson's career numbers is a poor way to measure both RBs talents. Johnson has the speed, power and moves you need in a complete running back. Johnson looks like the real deal. Slaton is a good role player on a talented team. Slaton is an excellent receiver, and this makes him very valuable in an offense that often plays from behind. But, and I think this is pretty obvious, Houston will certainly be looking for either a more powerful change of pace RB or a true stud to replace Slaton within a year or so. Slaton's fumbling problems alone should be a cause for great concern to fantasy owners. Coaches hate fumbling.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Agree completely on the fumbling. He keeps that up and he's in real trouble.
Retire_Already_Oscar
Footballguy
Confirmed: Kremenull has been trying to make deals to part with 'Superstar Stevie'
Marvin HarrisonAge 34- 1366/12Age 35- 247/1 (5 games)Age 36- 636/5Joey GallowayAge 34- 1287/10Age 35- 1057/7Age 36- 1014/6Rod SmithAge 34- 1144/7Age 35- 1105/6Age 36- 512/3Jimmy SmithAge 34- 805/4Age 35- 1172/6Age 36- 1023/6Unless a guy has injury problems (Terry Glenn, Torry Holt), there's no reason to believe he won't still be playing well at 34, regardless of build or playstyle.
No, if a WR's best season is 1100/10, he's not a stud. If his best season is 1200/8, he's not a stud.Second, it's not "lucky" for me that Sims-Walker is in the top 20. I looked at F&L's rankings and I set an arbitrary breakpoint. How is it "luck" that a certain player fell above that breakpoint? If I didn't think Sims-Walker had a decent (read: better than 2%) chance at 1350, I would have set the breakpoint at 19 instead of 20. I was tempted to set it at 25 instead of 20 just to get Crabtree and Nicks off the table, but I decided to keep it high to make things a bit more interesting, and to demonstrate that even elite prospects like those two are incredibly unlikely to ever achieve that lofty heights at which Ochocinco currently resides. It's a very high threshold.Third, when Kremenull tried to make me a bet that Pryor would be a better professional football player than Tebow, I made a long post about how absurd it was to have bets in perpetuity (or as good as in perpetuity) with strangers over the internet. Do you think either of us will remember or care about this conversation a year from now, to say nothing of seven?Fourth, maybe 2% is a little low. Let's call it 4%, instead. Or change it to 2% will ever achieve more than one 1350 yard season to weed out the Muhsin Muhammad-like flukes. Does either one alter my point at all, or are we just arguing semantics?thatguy said:
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
Trading for the rights to Pryor?
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
very good and very good.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
His downside came with a torn labrum and a Harvard QB throwing the ball. Yes we have seen Chad's upside and it's quite impressive. The man has talent, its undeniable.You are seriously over valuing Miles Austin based on one big game. Did you even watch that game. On both his long TDs he should have been dropped for small gains but the Chiefs tackling was terrible.
I think Austin is a very talened player and certainly has uspide, but you are ready to annoint him a little prematurely.
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
Does this PPR trade offer look one sided?
F Jackson and M Lynch for S Rice and L Robinson.
F Jackson and M Lynch for S Rice and L Robinson.
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
Just from a pure points perspective, Rice/Robinson have combined for 112.6 pts; Jackson/Lynch (assuming ppr for them too): 113.2 pts.Without seeing their rosters, it looks like a need-for-need trade to me & I don't see a problem with it.
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
I think the Lynch side is making out here.
belljr
Footballguy
I know this is probably an AC question but this is a recent dynasty trade I wanted to get opinions on. It is a PPR DYNASTY league and TD's are 6 for everyone. You also start 3 WR's. I know it's tough to judge without seeing teams but in value alone how do you guys see this?
ETA: This trade was already completed - this is just a value question
Team A gets:
McNabb
Mike Wallace
Mendenhall
2010 2nd round pick (hoping it's late)
2011 3rd
Team B gets
Brady
B. Scott
Welker
2010 4th
2011 4th
ETA: This trade was already completed - this is just a value question
Team A gets:
McNabb
Mike Wallace
Mendenhall
2010 2nd round pick (hoping it's late)
2011 3rd
Team B gets
Brady
B. Scott
Welker
2010 4th
2011 4th
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ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
Thanks. This was my offer to Gianmarco that I quickly revoked after seeing it on the screen. In my head it was OK, but once I saw it, it seemed like I was giving up too much for a possible stud WR and an injury prone guy on a bad team.
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