If hope was rational, then it wouldn't be hope. Just ask Lions fans.
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- Thread starter Fear & Loathing
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munchkin
Footballguy
McFool heh, he wasn't very foolish as the Pats O-Coordinator. Bowlen doesn't throw money around. We'll see how this all plays out. If they look improved, as they did at times this past season, he won't loose his job whether he makes the playoffs or not.
Fans jump to conclusions about coaches far too quickly. McDaniels is the guy for the next two years and then some in Denver. I am by no means an expert on Denver Broncos football, but he didn't do too badly in his first year as head coach as far as I could tell.
PewterFan
Footballguy
squistion
Footballguy
I would agree with that except it would an admission by Bowlen that he made a colossal mistake in dumping Shanahan for someone who (in my estimation) clearly appears to be in over his head. To save face, Bowlen will probably want to give him one more year.McDaniels' future will turn on the bottom line. I expect to see worse than an 8-8 record this year, and if most fans can live with that, then he will return in 2011. On the other hand, if there is big outcry that he must go and ticket sales fall and profits dip, then he will be shown the door after this year. In any event, this ill advised coaching experiment will certainly be over after the 2011 season, IMO.
kremenull
Footballguy
Rate the following players by position on who you believe is most likely to enjoy a nice bounce-back (or resurrection) season next year. Not looking for breakout players, I'm listing guys who have at least been around for awhile and were expected to have some success or have already experienced some success. Guys who can probably be had fairly cheaply in dynasty trades right now.
QBs
Jake Delhomme
Mike Vick
Vince Young
Alex Smith
Carson Palmer
Derek Anderson
RBs
Larry Johnson
LaDanian Tomlinson
Brandon Jacobs
Cadillac Williams
Chester Taylor
Lendale White
Marion Barber
Brian Westbrook
Clinton Portis
Willis McGahee
Marshawn Lynch
Ronnie Brown
WRs
Chris Chambers
Santana Moss
T.J. Houshmandzadeh
Mark Clayton
Eddie Royal
Kevin Curtis
Kevin Walter
Braylon Edwards
Lee Evans
Terrell Owens
Antonio Bryant
TEs
Chris Cooley
Todd Heap
Tony Scheffler
Bo Scaife
Randy McMichael
QBs
Jake Delhomme
Mike Vick
Vince Young
Alex Smith
Carson Palmer
Derek Anderson
RBs
Larry Johnson
LaDanian Tomlinson
Brandon Jacobs
Cadillac Williams
Chester Taylor
Lendale White
Marion Barber
Brian Westbrook
Clinton Portis
Willis McGahee
Marshawn Lynch
Ronnie Brown
WRs
Chris Chambers
Santana Moss
T.J. Houshmandzadeh
Mark Clayton
Eddie Royal
Kevin Curtis
Kevin Walter
Braylon Edwards
Lee Evans
Terrell Owens
Antonio Bryant
TEs
Chris Cooley
Todd Heap
Tony Scheffler
Bo Scaife
Randy McMichael
EBF
Footballguy
I agree with this. I have a hard time picturing this team doing better than 8-8 next year, particularly if they lose Marshall. San Diego will beat them like a drum again, Kansas City should be tougher, and Oakland can't get much worse. I think the Broncos will finish 2nd-3rd in the division with a mediocre or worse record. At that point you have to wonder if management will pull the plug on the McDaniels experiment. This is part of the reason why I'm leery of Knowshon Moreno in dynasty leagues. He didn't have a great year. He showed good foot quickness, but no semblance of power or explosiveness. He was pretty much outplayed by Correll Buckhalter. Right now his value stems mainly from the fact that he's one of McDaniels' guys. What happens when that changes? Will the new regime like him? Surely they can find someone else who can give them better than 3.9 YPC. He really has to step up next season if he wants to remain a starter in the league.
McDaniels had a bad year last year. He was brought in as an offensive genius, but the Broncos offense regressed in a HUGE way under Joshy McD. The defense made a dramatic improvement, but the architect of that improvement has already left. The problems with McDaniels run far deeper than just his Xs and Os coaching acumen, though. Just look at the list of people who have been run off of, alienated from, or grossly misused by the Broncos organization since McDaniels arrived:1. Mike Shanahan, 2x Superbowl Champion with a borderline HoF profile at head coach (granted, this one wasn't McDaniels' fault).2. Jim and Jeff Goodman, the front office duo responsible for drafting Cutler, Scheffler, Marshall, Dumervil, Kuper, Harris, Clady, and Royal. They were replaced at GM by Brian Xanders, a little-known capologist with no experience running a scouting department.3. Jay Cutler, the 25 year old franchise QB coming off of a Pro Bowl season.4. Bobby Turner, the RB coach responsible for finding and developing Terrell Davis, Olandis Gary, Mike Anderson, Clinton Portis, Reuben Droughns, Tatum Bell, Selvin Young, Mike Bell, etc.5. Rick Dennison, the OL coach responsible for keeping Denver's offensive line at an elite level after Gibbs resigned in 2002 despite turning over all 5 starters (I'd argue that Dennison, not Gibbs, is the premier ZBS guru in the league right now).6. Eddie Royal, the guy who finished his rookie season with the second most receptions by a rookie in NFL history... and finished his second season with the 75th most receptions in the NFL.7. Tony Scheffler, one of the top young receiving TEs in the NFL.8. Brandon Marshall, a 2-time pro bowler with three straight 100 catch seasons.9. Mike Nolan, the miracle working DC who took one of the worst defenses in the league, switched it to a scheme that its personnel looked comically ill-suited to run, and turned it into one of the best defenses in the league.Meanwhile, who has McDaniels brought in? Dawkins played surprisingly well last year, but how long can he keep it up? Is anyone really excited about the prospects of Kyle Orton? Was Moreno really worth the #12 overall with all of those holes the team has? His other draft picks have all likewise looked invisible (Ayers, McBath, and my favorite, Quinn, the backup blocking TE McDaniels spent a 2nd rounder on). Jabar Gaffney? It looks to me like the Broncos are hemorrhaging talent from all corners of the organization at a dizzying rate. If Bowlen waits long enough for McDaniels to prove himself as a coach, who will be left?
Instinctive
Footballguy
QBsVince YoungRBsLaDanian TomlinsonBrandon JacobsCadillac WilliamsChester Taylor if he leaves MinnyLendale White if he leaves TenMarion Barber ---intrigues me. If DAL gives Felix the old Julius carries and gives Barber his old role back, he'd definitely be an assetWillis McGahee if he gets out of BMoreMarshawn Lynch could be worth a shot...but I wouldn't take it.WRsT.J. Houshmandzadeh --I think 1-2 more years will be good in SeattleMark Clayton - more likely in my mind that BMore tries to find a true #1 through draft/trade/FAEddie Royal ----for sureKevin Walter hard to gauge, but he could be worth a shot. I'd be betting that Jacoby takes his place and never looks back thoughBraylon Edwards --- I think we overblow the dropsies. yeah it's bad, but maybe something clicks. Antonio Bryant --if he's uninjured and doesn't do anything dumb, I see a couple more good yearsTEsTony SchefflerBo ScaifeJust like those two. Hunch.
PranksterJD
Footballguy
quick pass.
Frank Costanza's Lawyer
Footballguy
F&L, any plans to roll your rankings from Rotoworld onto your blog? I definitely like the write-ups in the Rotoworld rankings but I do miss the numerical player values from the blog.
The Real Yoda
Footballguy
If I had more time, i'd photoshop Robert Meachem's face on a milk carton...but seriously.
A lotttttt of people were pimping him out in this thread. Where has he been hiding? To call his playoff numbers pathetic is an understatement.
A lotttttt of people were pimping him out in this thread. Where has he been hiding? To call his playoff numbers pathetic is an understatement.
az_prof
Footballguy
He has been hurt; don't know how much and don't know how much that has affected him. One thing I do know: he was wide open deep on that first NO possession and if Drew Brees had not overthrown Meachem you wouldn't have posted this because he would have had a 70 yard TD reception.
munchkin
Footballguy
This notion that Cutler was run off is false. He asked to be traded and tried to play the media game through his agent Bus Cook and alienated himself from the organization in the process. He wanted a raise and tried to muscle his way into one. Bowlen wasn't buying it and the team sent him packing.Marshall has not left the team, is still under contract and Bowlen seems to think he will be staying around.You don't know why members of the coaching staff and front office left. This team was cutting office staff prior to McDaniels arrival. Granted some of it were "fluff" publicity positions but it is what it is. Some owners are playing the cut costs game to set themselves up for the new CBA. Across the League when new coaches come in their is a purge of contracts.Since when does 49 catches make a TE one of the tops in the NFL? That's what he had in his one "productive" year under Shanahan.You think Mike Nolan might have gotten a nice raise, which Bowlen may not have wanted to give him, when he went to Miami? We don't know what Nolan's contract was or it's length when went to Denver.
gorf
Footballguy
my thoughts...
wiscstlatlmia
Footballguy
any new thoughts on jamaal charles beanie wells or rashard mendenhall?
MountainMan0726
Footballguy
Regarding all the McDaniels hate...Preseason you guys had the Broncos finishing 8-8? He's "clearly" over his head? Shanahan is headed to Washington as a savior, yet he accomplished the exact same record as "McFool" did with all that great talent that "McFool" takes so much crap for getting rid of. Why the free pass for Shanny?
-"McFool" took a lot of heat from trading away Denver's 1st instead of Chicago's 1st in 2010. Where are those critics now that Chicago's pick is better?
-Why the free pass for Mike Nolan? Take a look at the defensive splits 1st half/2nd half. Nolan can't escape blame for that. And we can't know what happens behind closed doors.
-Keep hating on Moreno, and don't mention that the 2009 O-Line was FAR worse than in previous years. Losing Harris was HUGE.
-I'd have a hard time coming up with a better season than 8-8 if you have to factor in 26 Cutler interceptions. But hey, incredible talent, right?
Attendance figures are fine, Mile High sold 99% of capacity in 2009. Broncos fans show up regardless of who's wearing the headset.
I'm obviously a McDaniel's supporter. Give the guy a chance to show what he can do. How often do you come across someone who's accomplished as much by age 32?
I guess if he'd finished 4-12 and met predictions, he'd be just fine. Like Todd Haley.
-"McFool" took a lot of heat from trading away Denver's 1st instead of Chicago's 1st in 2010. Where are those critics now that Chicago's pick is better?
-Why the free pass for Mike Nolan? Take a look at the defensive splits 1st half/2nd half. Nolan can't escape blame for that. And we can't know what happens behind closed doors.
-Keep hating on Moreno, and don't mention that the 2009 O-Line was FAR worse than in previous years. Losing Harris was HUGE.
-I'd have a hard time coming up with a better season than 8-8 if you have to factor in 26 Cutler interceptions. But hey, incredible talent, right?
Attendance figures are fine, Mile High sold 99% of capacity in 2009. Broncos fans show up regardless of who's wearing the headset.
I'm obviously a McDaniel's supporter. Give the guy a chance to show what he can do. How often do you come across someone who's accomplished as much by age 32?
I guess if he'd finished 4-12 and met predictions, he'd be just fine. Like Todd Haley.
Kitrick Taylor
Footballguy
I think the concern here is that Haley went 3-7 with the Chiefs over their last 10 games. McDaniels went 2-8 with the Broncos.
squistion
Footballguy
Not too often. But in addition to his accomplishments, he is also immature, arrogant, a control freak, a drama queen and seems completely lacking in the player managment skills needed to be a successful coach. He may succeed somewhere down the line as a head coach, but I can't see it happening in Denver with his current personality and attitude.
smashingsilver
Footballguy
I have a problem with this part. Denver took criticism, not because they traded their own pick instead of Chicago's, but because they traded a 1st round pick away for a slow, small cornerback who couldn't cover NFL receivers (Smith).
EBF
Footballguy
Sorry, but the Broncos are not going to be a good football team next year. The Jets, Patriots, Chargers, Colts, Steelers, Texans, and Ravens are better teams in the AFC. The Titans, Dolphins, Chiefs, and Jaguars could easily be better than Denver next season. We're talking about probably the 9th-10th best team in the AFC alone.
Unless McDaniels can coach like Jeff Fisher, he's not going to hit 8-8 with this team again. You need a QB to be a consistent winner in the NFL. The Broncos don't have one. They won't win anything until that changes.
Unless McDaniels can coach like Jeff Fisher, he's not going to hit 8-8 with this team again. You need a QB to be a consistent winner in the NFL. The Broncos don't have one. They won't win anything until that changes.
I numbered your post for easy responding.#1- I'm well aware of how the Cutler fiasco played out, and you're misrepresenting it in a big way. Here's the timeline:*Late January- McDaniels gives a pitch to Pat Bowlen about what a big offensive genius he is. The pitch is specifically centered around what he could do with Denver's existing offensive core and his offensive acumen. Bowlen is impressed enough by the pitch to make the controversial hire.*Bowlen tells Cutler that Jeremy Bates, Cutler's friend and the guy many credited for the surge in Denver's passing game, would be retained.*McDaniels doesn't retain Bates. Cutler feels deceived and gets upset.*McDaniels reaches out to Cutler. He spends some time talking to Cutler about his vision of Denver's offense, how Cutler fits in it, how unstoppable it's going to be. He repeatedly tells Cutler how excited he is to be working with Cutler.*Cutler publicly states that he's forgiven the dismissal of Bates and that he's excited to be working with McDaniels (who has repeatedly insisted to both the owner and the QB that he's excited to be working with Cutler).*Josh McDaniels tries to trade Cutler. The media finds out and leaks the story. McDaniels denies it.*Cutler's sources insist that the story is true. Cutler is absolutely livid to find out that he's been lied to (by McDaniels, who was busy talking about how excited he was to work with Cutler while he was secretly trying to get rid of Cutler at the same time).*McDaniels continues to deny the rumors. Cutler insists he's lying. McDaniels denies. The media provides more evidence that the trade talks really did take place.*McDaniels arranges a face to face meeting where he admits that he lied. This marks the second time within his first month and a half that he has lied to his franchise QB. According to reports from both camps, McDaniels was wholly unapologetic during the face-to-face sitdown. Cutler's camp claims that Cutler came to the table to seek a resolution, but was so outraged at McDaniels' attitude that he instead left insisting he be traded.*Cutler escalates the situation by refusing to return phone calls by Pat Bowlen and McDaniels, and continuing to insist on the trade. McDaniels remains optimistic that a peaceful resolution could be reached, but Bowlen calls for the Broncos to trade Cutler immediately rather than seeking a reconciliation.While it seems speculative, most of the above has been confirmed by multiple reports and stories reported by both parties. I tried to avoid any of the he-said/she-said and stick to the corroborated facts except in the case that were "he-said/she-admitted-she-said". By all accounts, Cutler's actions were not a ploy for a raise (even when he went to Chicago he insisted he was making no effort to get a raise, although eventually an extension got in the works in the background- whether it was initiated by the player or the team isn't known, but my sense of the situation is that it really, really wasn't about money). In the end, the trade was forced by Cutler's ego and his pride, but it was necessitated by McDaniels' lies, unapologetic attitude, and all around bad player management skills. Cutler was not blameless in the fiasco, but he clearly did not start it. It was started by a head coach who was too arrogant or too stupid to be more respectful to his best player. Is it a refusal to pander? Maybe, but most other coaches in the NFL aren't above pandering from time to time for their best player's sake.2. Bowlen HOPES Marshall will be sticking around, but McDaniels clearly, clearly alienated Marshall in week 17. He called Marshall a liar and a malingerer and accused Marshall of faking an injury to get out of practice. He crossed several lines and made several unprofessional comments about Marshall to the media. When Marshall found out, he responded by making several unprofessional comments about McDaniels to the media. The whole thing played out like a 5 year old (Marshall) whining about being called out by a 2 year old (McDaniels).3. We do know why the Goodmans left. They got in a power struggle with Brian Xander. McDaniels sided with Xander. The Goodmans got fired. It wasn't a "cost saving" move... and if you do want to save costs, don't start with the scouting staff responsible for you pulling down arguably the best 4-year draft class of any team in the past decade. This whole affair was rendered even more comical by McDaniels botching the draft big-time and then saying afterwards that he only had 50 players' names on his draft board.4. The rate stats don't tell the whole story because Scheffler was battling injuries much of his career. In 2008, he missed 3 games to injury, was still showing effects of the injury for weeks after he returned, and was Denver's #2 TE (getting only 7 starts in 13 games)... and he still was on pace for 800 receiving yards at 16 yards per catch. This past offseason, McDaniels actively tried to get rid of him, couldn't find a taker, and then never found a place for Scheffler in his scheme. The result was 1 fewer reception per game and just a hair over half as many receiving yards per game. If you read the game recap threads, you'll see several Broncos posters (myself among them) noticing what an impact Scheffler had when he was used and wondering why McDaniels never bothered to make a place for Scheffler in the offense.5. If Bowlen was worried about saving money at the expense of the team, do you think he would have green-lighted giving $18 million in guaranteed money to RBs last offseason when RB wasn't even a major position of need? Do you think he would have been fine with writing a signing bonus check to Knowshon Moreno after already having written fat signing bonus checks to Correll Buckhalter, LaMont Jordan, and J.J. Arrington? So what if Nolan wanted a raise? He deserved one.
1. The critics are right here. McDaniels traded a top-half-of-the-round first rounder for a short, slow CB who has looked terrible. That's an awful move whether it was the 11th overall pick (Chicago's) or the 14th (Denver's). Besides, if not for Stokley's miracle catch, Denver's pick WOULD have been worse than Chicago's. It's a 3 pick difference as it is. And a bad trade either way you slice it.2. The free pass for Nolan is because he took a HISTORICALLY awful defense, added a bunch of players that nobody wanted, and turned it to the best unit in the league over the first half of the season and a merely mediocre unit over the second half. Sure, it regressed, but even if it played at its second half levels over the entire season, that defense would STILL have been far better than anyone had any reason to expect. Nolan was a miracle worker. I don't blame him when the magic pixie dust ran out. The guy trotted out the oldest starting secondary in NFL history, is it any surprise that the defense wore down?3. Knowshon Moreno averaged 3.8 yards per carry, had a -5.1% DVOA, and finished 15th in Success Rate. Blame the offensive line all you want... but while you're at it, kindly explain how Buckhalter, a nobody who nobody wanted and who had never done anything, managed to post 5.4 yards per carry, a 6.4% DVOA, and the #1 success rate in the entire NFL behind the exact same offensive line. Absolute best case for Moreno, he was unnecessary, a guy who wasn't an improvement over his backups drafted at a position that wasn't a position of need. Worst case scenario, he was a guy who got OUTPRODUCED by his backups and who produced one of the most mediocre and uninspiring seasons by a rookie RB in recent memory. Meanwhile, Brian Orakpo (the guy who every Denver fan WANTED Denver to take with the pick and who wound up going 1 pick later) put up a pro bowl season as a rookie, getting 11 sacks and looking like a prototypical 3-4 OLB.4. The Broncos managed to go 8-8 in 2008 despite featuring the second worst defense of the last 15 years (according to Football Outsiders). Imagine pairing the 2008 Denver offense with the 2009 Denver defense. I think it's fairly obvious that the result would have been far, far better than a second straight 8-8 finish.5. This is actually a decent point. The only other guy I can think of who had accomplished so much at such a young age was ALSO the guy whose reign McDaniels reminded me of. I was actually going to make a post pointing out how similar they seemed, but you really provided a nice set up for it. Lane Kiffin. McDaniels in Denver reminds me a lot of Lane in Tennessee- the guy in charge sticking his neck out, the coach repeatedly alienating the existing staff and players, the coach not respecting what was in place when he arrived in the slightest, lots of people getting ruffled by the coach's personality and saying he's a d-bag, etc.
munchkin
Footballguy
Cutler asked for the trade BEFORE all the hub-bub started regarding McDaniels's supposed deception. I'll trust the sources I have on that, you can trust yours.Who cares if Cutler forgives anybody? Does he own the team? Look, there is no shortage of egos amongst McDaniels, Bowlen, Cutler and Cook. The whole thing turned out to be a fiasco no doubt. We'll see how Cutler's career turns out. He may put up big numbers and win nothing; time will tell. If McDaniels and Cutler were going to be fighting each other every step of the way what good was it going to do for the team? Even with the under achieving Shanahan on the scene Cutler was pig headed and often did his own thing on the field. In the few games I watched Cutler looked myopic and arrogant as a field general in his own right. Shanahan was having a hard time controlling him too.
I am asking this question because I don't know. How many of the people Shanny left behind in Denver are with him now?
Maybe the team should have gone into the season with Peyton Hillis and Selvin Young as their RB's. Moreno has not turned out to be the back many pundits expected him to be in his first year but to call him one of the worst Rookie Rb's to enter the League is preposterous. He was certainly a less than satisfactory starting RB. He certainly did not live up to his draft position.
I will agree wholeheartedly that McDaniels has to improve the talent on the team. They need a center to replace Nalen and at least one guard. They have to figure out a way to use Royal. They need a tight end that can catch and stay healthy. The D-Line is a mess and they have no linebacker depth. Moreno's production was no where near what Orakpo put on the field. McDaniels is not the first coach to make a draft day blunder. Shanahan made a bunch of them along with some colossally awful free agent pick ups. He ultimately ended up trading Portis for Champ because he couldn't solve his DB problems through the draft or free agency. they also didn't want to pay him the $$$ he wanted.
Shanahan is a great coach; he killed the Pats more often than not but the team was stagnant and many of the fans I know out here weren't all that unhappy to see him go (that goes for Cutler too).
McDaniels is smart enough to be a successful head coach but he certainly has a lot to learn and he needs to do it fast. I totally agree he has made mistakes and if he doesn't learn from them he is gone. He won't be the first nor the last fail in his first HC position. I hope he succeeds.
I respect where you are coming from and REALLY appreciate what you bring to this site and this thread in particular.
I just happen to disagree with you regarding some points in this matter.
First off, I appreciate the appreciation and want to assure you that the respect definitely goes two ways. I don't mean for the discussion to sound heated or anything, it's just that it's the offseason, so what else are we going to talk about (at least until the combine)?Cutler asked for the trade BEFORE all the hub-bub started regarding McDaniels's supposed deception. I'll trust the sources I have on that, you can trust yours.Who cares if Cutler forgives anybody? Does he own the team? Look, there is no shortage of egos amongst McDaniels, Bowlen, Cutler and Cook. The whole thing turned out to be a fiasco no doubt. We'll see how Cutler's career turns out. He may put up big numbers and win nothing; time will tell. If McDaniels and Cutler were going to be fighting each other every step of the way what good was it going to do for the team? Even with the under achieving Shanahan on the scene Cutler was pig headed and often did his own thing on the field. In the few games I watched Cutler looked myopic and arrogant as a field general in his own right. Shanahan was having a hard time controlling him too.I am asking this question because I don't know. How many of the people Shanny left behind in Denver are with him now? Maybe the team should have gone into the season with Peyton Hillis and Selvin Young as their RB's. Moreno has not turned out to be the back many pundits expected him to be in his first year but to call him one of the worst Rookie Rb's to enter the League is preposterous. He was certainly a less than satisfactory starting RB. He certainly did not live up to his draft position. I will agree wholeheartedly that McDaniels has to improve the talent on the team. They need a center to replace Nalen and at least one guard. They have to figure out a way to use Royal. They need a tight end that can catch and stay healthy. The D-Line is a mess and they have no linebacker depth. Moreno's production was no where near what Orakpo put on the field. McDaniels is not the first coach to make a draft day blunder. Shanahan made a bunch of them along with some colossally awful free agent pick ups. He ultimately ended up trading Portis for Champ because he couldn't solve his DB problems through the draft or free agency. they also didn't want to pay him the $$$ he wanted.Shanahan is a great coach; he killed the Pats more often than not but the team was stagnant and many of the fans I know out here weren't all that unhappy to see him go (that goes for Cutler too).McDaniels is smart enough to be a successful head coach but he certainly has a lot to learn and he needs to do it fast. I totally agree he has made mistakes and if he doesn't learn from them he is gone. He won't be the first nor the last fail in his first HC position. I hope he succeeds.I respect where you are coming from and REALLY appreciate what you bring to this site and this thread in particular.I just happen to disagree with you regarding some points in this matter.
Anyway, Cutler grumbled and said he wasn't happy when Bates wasn't retained, but that was before he met face to face with McDaniels. After that meeting, Cutler was positive about the direction of the offense and ready to start working towards next year. The trade demands didn't surface until after McDaniels lied to him (twice).Shanahan wasn't having a hard time "controlling" Cutler, by any stretch of the imagination. The Shanahan/Cutler/Bates trio was one big happy love-fest. Cutler threw a lot of picks, but Shanahan was fine with that as the cost of having a young, talented, gunslinging QB in his second year as a starter. Elway through a ton of picks when he was young, too. At the end of the day, Cutler was, if not happy, then content to go into the season with McDaniels. And then McDaniels screwed it up. It was a major rookie coaching mistake, and while Cutler didn't help the matter, it's McDaniels' job to control the egos on his team, and he failed at it colossally within his first two months on the job.I never called Moreno one of the worst RBs to enter the league, I said that he produced one of the most mediocre and uninspiring seasons by a rookie RB in recent memory. And he did! He joined a team that in 2008 lost SEVEN RBs for the season, was forced to sign a guy who was selling cell phones in the mall in October to be their starting RB in November, and still averaged 4.8 yards per carry. His backup, a virtual nobody who has never really done anything of note, averaged 5.4 yards per carry and led the league in success rate. He was the #12 overall draft pick. Despite all this, Moreno averaged a pathetic 3.8 yards per carry. That's unbelievably mediocre and uninspiring. When he was drafted, his coach raved about how his blocking and his hands would turn him into an every-down RB... and then he failed to rush for 1,000 yards on the team that turned Olandis Freaking Gary into a 1,000 yard rusher as a rookie, and he only caught 28 passes for the year. To be perfectly fair, he was injured and missed all of TCs/Preseason, which might have slowed his development... but if you have another way to describe Moreno's season than "unbelievably uninspiring", I'd like to hear it.McDaniels isn't the first coach to make major draft day blunders, but as far as I know, he's the first coach to make major draft day blunders after bragging about how he was so much smarter than everyone else that he only needed to put 50 names on his draft board. Also, the draft day blunders were especially inexcusable because he's the guy that fired the hottest scouting department in the entire NFL just a few weeks before the draft.I don't question that McDaniels has the smarts to be a quality coach. I just question whether he has the common sense or the temperment to be a quality coach. More importantly, I question whether the Broncos can afford to let him continue to alienate or chase off every quality contributor in the entire organization while they try to find the answer to that question.Matt's Eagles
Footballguy
Wow isn't there a 2010 Broncos off season thread?First off, I appreciate the appreciation and want to assure you that the respect definitely goes two ways. I don't mean for the discussion to sound heated or anything, it's just that it's the offseason, so what else are we going to talk about (at least until the combine)?Cutler asked for the trade BEFORE all the hub-bub started regarding McDaniels's supposed deception. I'll trust the sources I have on that, you can trust yours.Who cares if Cutler forgives anybody? Does he own the team? Look, there is no shortage of egos amongst McDaniels, Bowlen, Cutler and Cook. The whole thing turned out to be a fiasco no doubt. We'll see how Cutler's career turns out. He may put up big numbers and win nothing; time will tell. If McDaniels and Cutler were going to be fighting each other every step of the way what good was it going to do for the team? Even with the under achieving Shanahan on the scene Cutler was pig headed and often did his own thing on the field. In the few games I watched Cutler looked myopic and arrogant as a field general in his own right. Shanahan was having a hard time controlling him too.I am asking this question because I don't know. How many of the people Shanny left behind in Denver are with him now? Maybe the team should have gone into the season with Peyton Hillis and Selvin Young as their RB's. Moreno has not turned out to be the back many pundits expected him to be in his first year but to call him one of the worst Rookie Rb's to enter the League is preposterous. He was certainly a less than satisfactory starting RB. He certainly did not live up to his draft position. I will agree wholeheartedly that McDaniels has to improve the talent on the team. They need a center to replace Nalen and at least one guard. They have to figure out a way to use Royal. They need a tight end that can catch and stay healthy. The D-Line is a mess and they have no linebacker depth. Moreno's production was no where near what Orakpo put on the field. McDaniels is not the first coach to make a draft day blunder. Shanahan made a bunch of them along with some colossally awful free agent pick ups. He ultimately ended up trading Portis for Champ because he couldn't solve his DB problems through the draft or free agency. they also didn't want to pay him the $$$ he wanted.Shanahan is a great coach; he killed the Pats more often than not but the team was stagnant and many of the fans I know out here weren't all that unhappy to see him go (that goes for Cutler too).McDaniels is smart enough to be a successful head coach but he certainly has a lot to learn and he needs to do it fast. I totally agree he has made mistakes and if he doesn't learn from them he is gone. He won't be the first nor the last fail in his first HC position. I hope he succeeds.I respect where you are coming from and REALLY appreciate what you bring to this site and this thread in particular.Anyway, Cutler grumbled and said he wasn't happy when Bates wasn't retained, but that was before he met face to face with McDaniels. After that meeting, Cutler was positive about the direction of the offense and ready to start working towards next year. The trade demands didn't surface until after McDaniels lied to him (twice).Shanahan wasn't having a hard time "controlling" Cutler, by any stretch of the imagination. The Shanahan/Cutler/Bates trio was one big happy love-fest. Cutler threw a lot of picks, but Shanahan was fine with that as the cost of having a young, talented, gunslinging QB in his second year as a starter. Elway through a ton of picks when he was young, too. At the end of the day, Cutler was, if not happy, then content to go into the season with McDaniels. And then McDaniels screwed it up. It was a major rookie coaching mistake, and while Cutler didn't help the matter, it's McDaniels' job to control the egos on his team, and he failed at it colossally within his first two months on the job.I never called Moreno one of the worst RBs to enter the league, I said that he produced one of the most mediocre and uninspiring seasons by a rookie RB in recent memory. And he did! He joined a team that in 2008 lost SEVEN RBs for the season, was forced to sign a guy who was selling cell phones in the mall in October to be their starting RB in November, and still averaged 4.8 yards per carry. His backup, a virtual nobody who has never really done anything of note, averaged 5.4 yards per carry and led the league in success rate. He was the #12 overall draft pick. Despite all this, Moreno averaged a pathetic 3.8 yards per carry. That's unbelievably mediocre and uninspiring. When he was drafted, his coach raved about how his blocking and his hands would turn him into an every-down RB... and then he failed to rush for 1,000 yards on the team that turned Olandis Freaking Gary into a 1,000 yard rusher as a rookie, and he only caught 28 passes for the year. To be perfectly fair, he was injured and missed all of TCs/Preseason, which might have slowed his development... but if you have another way to describe Moreno's season than "unbelievably uninspiring", I'd like to hear it.McDaniels isn't the first coach to make major draft day blunders, but as far as I know, he's the first coach to make major draft day blunders after bragging about how he was so much smarter than everyone else that he only needed to put 50 names on his draft board. Also, the draft day blunders were especially inexcusable because he's the guy that fired the hottest scouting department in the entire NFL just a few weeks before the draft.I don't question that McDaniels has the smarts to be a quality coach. I just question whether he has the common sense or the temperment to be a quality coach. More importantly, I question whether the Broncos can afford to let him continue to alienate or chase off every quality contributor in the entire organization while they try to find the answer to that question.
BeTheMatch
Footballguy
Maybe we should just add some LHUCKS recipes then too while we're at it. You don't have to read those either.
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
I'll update the blog at some point (hopefully in the near future), but I generally don't like quoting the Rotoworld articles word-for-word in another place. I'm going to take a week or so to decompress from football, and then try to update all of the blog rankings.
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
IMO, Bowlen's comments are mostly about creating a viable trade market for Marshall. McDaniels didn't help matters with the Week 17 nonsense, so Bowlen has to try to repair Marshall's image and the perception of the team's lack of leverage this offseason.
This isn't a discussion of Denver's offseason, it's a discussion of how long Josh McDaniels should/will remain the head coach of the Denver Broncos. Don't you think that Denver's coaching situation going forward is dynasty relevant? Personally, I'm of the opinion that Knowshon Moreno takes a major value hit if McDaniels leaves, while Scheffler and Royal both get a boost in value. Even if you disagree with that, you surely have to admit that a discussion of how long McDaniels will remain in Denver is certainly very fantasy relevant from a dynasty standpoint.If you have something else you'd rather discuss, instead, you're more than free to make a post broaching the topic. Or perhaps you'd just rather we post nothing at all.
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While this is a possibility, it certainly seems out of character for Pat Bowlen. He's never made a comment to the media for the sole purpose of helping a player's trade value, before. In fact, you could say that he has a history of exactly the opposite- his public handling of the Jay Cutler situation clearly did more to LESSEN his trade value and Denver's leverage than it did to increase it.Bowlen has always struck me as an owner who is passionate about his team and a relative straight shooter. He's certainly been honest enough about tough situations in the past.
BeTheMatch
Footballguy
Maybe Bowlen has learned his lesson.
I don't mean to divert the conversation topic here, but I'm curious to get everyone's opinion on a couple of backs with question marks, namely Clinton Portis and Ronnie Brown. I happen to have both on my roster (see signature). I trust Brown more than Portis going forward, but that's not saying much. I am not sold on Brown returning from yet another knee injury. I realise his recovery time will be greater this time around, but I have my doubts. As for Portis, I would take almost anything for him now.
What I'm wondering is what you all think. What would you do with these guys if they were on your rosters? I'm heavily leaning towards acquiring more draft picks to invest in young talent or simply trading for a more proven back in the right age range.
Any opinions on this?
What I'm wondering is what you all think. What would you do with these guys if they were on your rosters? I'm heavily leaning towards acquiring more draft picks to invest in young talent or simply trading for a more proven back in the right age range.
Any opinions on this?
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
Brown's injury was a Lisfranc fracture, not a knee. He's expected to be healthy by Week 1. I think the smart move for Brown owners is to hold because you can't get full value.Portis is a ghost. His legs just aren't there anymore. I'd probably try to package him with another player to upgrade at RB or another position.
It's certainly a possibility, I was just saying that it's out of character based on everything he's said and done during his entire 25 year ownership tenure to date.
EBF
Footballguy
az_prof
Footballguy
One of the most factual, clear, on point refutations I have read anywhere. I may just use this in my writing composition class as an example of a good refutation argument! Very nice post SSOG.
BigJim®
Footballguy
I too own Ronnie Brown and he's an intriguing guy. First off, he has an injury to his foot, not a knee. I think I read it was a lis franc fracture, which was the same injury Duce Staley and Kevin Jones suffered. I seem to recall Thomas Jones has a possible lis franc injury in 2007, and he obviously rebounded from it ok. Based on reports that he'll be fine by 2010, Brown's value hasn't taken a huge nose dive, even if the foot issue is every bit as significant as a knee injury. That's good news if you are looking to trade him. I see both Pasquino and Bloom have him ranked 10-20 in updated dynasty RB rankings. Unfortunately, I have been trying to peddle Brown in my dynasty league for the better part of 2 years and at least the guys in my dynasty league are down on him... he's virtually untradable. My opinion, expert rankings rate Brown a lot higher than his actual trade value. There are a bunch of RBs I see ranked below Brown that I'd instantly trade him for (P.Thomas, Grant, Moreno, Mendenhall). Having said all that, I remain somewhat high on Brown personally and think he can produce if/when Henne turns this gimmicky wildcat offense into a more conventional NFL offense. While I don;t think he'll ever be a consistent top 10 producer over a long stretch, I'll live with his spurty production if I have to. He sure isn't going to get any easier to trade away as he nears 30, so if you do want to trade him, then training camp 2010 is probably when I'd do it.Portis I'm not high on at all. I traded him away last year and am glad I rid myself of him. His situation took a huge hit when Shanahan was brought in as Redskin coach. Given the fact he had already sabotaged his relationships there, I really believe the only reason he's stuck around in DC is the contract. Shanahan surely won't keep him due to a contract, and he will be left trying to find a role elsewhere, which won't be easy for a guy with that locker room/work ethic reputation IMHO.
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munchkin
Footballguy
That's right.
My bad, I forgot about that. For some reason I remembered it as a knee injury. Thanks for the advice from everyone.
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
If you read just one thing about football the rest of this week, make it LaVar Arrington's response to Portis on Tuesday. For a primer, here's what Portis said about Arrington:Fear & Loathing said:
Arrington's response on radio Tuesday was actually spine-tingling -- I advise listening to the whole thing as well as reading this recap:
Jene Bramel
Footballguy
coolnerd
Footballguy
One of the biggest I probably viewed this guy wrong moments ever.
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
I think that there are very few players coached by Joe Paterno (and Larry Johnson may be one) that turn out to be selfish, meglomaniacs in the pros. They would never see the field. And of course Larry's dad coached the DLine, so that lesson was lost on him.
Tau837
Footballguy
Seriously. Lavar Arrington... wasn't this guy supposedly too stupid to learn Gregg Williams' defense? That was probably the most passionate, most articulate, most well-constructed off-the-cuff football tirade I have ever heard. When most people feel that passionately and start improvising, they wind up stuck in youtube infamy for all time ("I'm a man!", "They are who we thought they were!", "Playoffs? Playoffs?!", "Practice? Practice?!", "This is DIVISION ONE FOOTBAW! It's THE BIG TWEYLVE!!!", etc). Yet, somehow, Arrington managed to maintain clarity of thought in the midst of all that obvious emotion. Really impressive to listen to. That was a symphony, seamlessly flowing between the highs and lows while all the while building to that final crescendo. Seriously, bravissimo.
Rodeojones
Footballguy
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