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Dynasty Rankings (8 Viewers)

Just traded for Andy Dalton. He has had a cake schedule and done most of his damage against two of the worst defenses in the NFL. That said, I like his situation. He has a Stafford like potential, if the Bengals keep building around Dalton/Green, which I expect them to.

Moved Blackmon and Sanchez in a RB/QB heavy, non-PPR league.

I know this could go in the trade thread, but we were talking about young QBs earlier, and I thought this might be worth sharing.

 
Coop, maybe you missed it, but earlier you said that you would "buy" Miles Austin stock right now.Reasons?
The target split wont stay at over 2/1 in Dez's favor. Dez gets so much attention in the redzone, that it opens up things underneath for Miles. 2 of Miles TDs, I believe, were a result of this. That will continue. If Dez starts to comand that attention between the 20's, Miles sill start hitting homeruns, as he has shown capable of. I simply think there is a major value push toward Dez, much of it, rightfully so. But I think it has shifted too far away from Austin.Austin is still a WR1 calibuer player in the NFL, and the Dallas offense will be able to support two top 10 WRs, once their O-Line bounces back - which could be next year.ETA: I don't expect both to be top 10. But top 15-20 is very possible, if not probable, once the line can give Romo enough time.
 
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thanks, your posts are informative and I appreciate the reply. Always refreshing to read stuff that's different from the mainstream flavor of the week.

 
'SSOG said:
'ctrlaltdefeat said:
When will you guys realize that Jonathan Stewart is nothing special, just a plain back that will likely never break out? Take him over McFadden? Haha good one
He already broke out. He has a top 12 finish in half a season as a starter. He owns the NFL record for most rushing yards in a player's first three starts. Only three RBs in the entire NFL have a higher career ypc. It just happens that one of those three RBs shares a backfield with him.
SSOG is right to remind us that Stewart has proven he is special. He happens to play with another very good back.His 2009 season helped me win a championship.
 
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The main problem with Stewart is he is running out of time. I understand why people chase after him, hoping for another Priest Holmes type pay off, but it is more likely you are going to get some Michael Turner like seasons (a couple of them) if you are lucky and the Panthers do not get another RB to share time with him once Williams is done. It is a good thing that Stewart is only 25 years old or that is pretty much what you would be looking at right now.

If you have Stewart and can find someone to pay a price like SSOG and EBF are suggesting you should sell. He is not worth top 10 RB value. I doubt either of them would pay that for him. Too much risk. I also bet EBF would start remembering all the injuries Stewart has gone through if he were trying to get him off you, unlike his post saying there is no reason besides Williams as to why Stewart has not lived up to expectations.

If you look deeper into it you will see that this has been the history of the Panthers since their inception. There has always been a veteran RB who shares with a up and coming RB and neither one of them gets much more than 220 carries unless the other guy gets hurt. The only exception was 2003 with Stephan Davis.

Stewart was worth more before he signed a long term deal with the Panthers. The team revolves around Cam Newton now. I just do not see Stewart ever living up to the high expectations you have for him. He came into the league hurt and has a playing style that causes him to often be injured. He does not have the toughness to play through his injuries to match his play style.

 
'EBF said:
'ctrlaltdefeat said:
Ability, talent, potential - I hear these words all the time but Many times it doesn't translate to the field. I'd much rather have McFadden than Stewart in redrafts and dynasty. The one league I have Stewart in I'm always looking for someone else to start in his place. Almost like owning Chris Johnson except minus the breakout season.
The only reason Stewart isn't a top 10 FF back is because he doesn't get enough opportunities. Nothing to it besides that. He has been consistently productive his whole career on the few touches he has been given.

But he has been insanely unlucky in terms of situational factors. Not only has he been stuck to compete with one of the best RBs in the NFL for his entire career, but he also happens to be stuck with probably the best running QB in the NFL as well. So he has not one, but two elite rushers vulturing his chances. That's pretty insanely unlucky. If Andrew Luck had come out for the draft last year like everyone expected, Carolina would've drafted him and Newton never would've arrived in town to snake so many rushing TDs.

It is easy to forget how good Stewart is given how unlucky his career has been, but this is a guy who would probably be the unquestioned workhorse back for 25 of the teams in the NFL. He absolutely smokes guys like Alfred Morris, Arian Foster, and Stevan Ridley from an ability standpoint, but we don't get to see the production because of where he plays. The only RB who has had it worse in recent years might have been Sproles when he was in San Diego with Tomlinson and Turner.

I'm still one of the suckers who would gladly buy Stewart for a reasonable price. He's only 25 years old and his game is reminiscent of several backs who have shown good longevity (Benson, Ricky, Jackson, Turner, MJD). I do think he's likely to have a window at some point in his career where he's a reliable weekly FF starter, but it might not be until he's 27 or 28. Whether it's age finally catching up with D-Will or Stewart finally changing teams, something has to give eventually for Stewart.

But don't let his lack of use convince you that he's not the goods when all of the objective factors indicate that he is in fact an elite player. The guy has a Trent Richardson-Michael Turner-Maurice Drew type of BMI, but still clocked 4.46 at the combine and jumped 36.5" in the vert and 10'8" in the broad jump. He was a top 15 draft pick and has backed it up by logging a career 4.8 YPC average and never dipping below 4.3 YPC in a single season. You know what Adrian Peterson, Ray Rice, Maurice Drew, Steven Jackson, Frank Gore, LeSean McCoy, and Ryan Mathews have in common? Not one of them has a higher career YPC than Stewart.

The guy is a bad dude.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygCFW8DQWIo
I'm with you on Stewart's talent, but some of this stuff is disingenous.For starters, we can't take all of the onus off Stewart and blame it purely on luck. He had injury concerns coming out of college and hasn't shaken them in the pros, which likely plays a role in why he's not a 25 carry workhorse somewhere. Additionally, he had a chance to get out of Carolina coming up and he chose to re-up with them, knowing full well what it meant for his chances to be "the guy".

Additionally, there's more to the talk of YPC than just "he has a big one". Comparing his ypc to guys like Peterson is disingenuous because YPC will typically be higher for a committee back than a workhorse. You know that as well as anyone so I can only conclude that you're intentionally ignoring it to talk up a guy you've always been very high on. Stewart has spent the majority of his career in a RBBC on a team that had the best run-blocking line in football for half of it. When he's carried the load, it was usually at the end of the year on fresher legs. Of course his YPC will be high in that situation.

It's not just DeAngelo that we're comparing him too either. In the only season where both Stewart and Goodson received significant carries, Goodson beat him on YPC. In fact, heading into this year Stewart had never led the team in YPC during any season of his career. While Carolina has been an awful situation in terms of getting a lot of touches, it has been (prior to this year) a phenomenal situation for producing with those touches. RBBC and fresh legs with a great run blocking line. Everyone they've put back there has excelled with the touches they got.

I don't want this to come off like I'm bashing Stewart because I like him as well, and just bought him in my main dynasty league. However, I think it's only fair to point these things out. Stewart is not the stone cold lock to be a top 2 RB if only he were getting the touches as some talk him up to be. There are still plenty of questions as to whether he can actually handle that load, and how he'll perform when he's asked to do more without an elite line to run behind.

 
Moved Blackmon and Sanchez in a RB/QB heavy, non-PPR league.
This seems more a statement on Blackmon than Dalton. Are you expecting Dalton to be appreciably better than Flacco/Cutler types going forward? I assume you already have someone like Newton as your starter in this league.
I do expect him to be better, and I do also own Newton. I don't expect him to continue outperforming them at this rate, this season. But I like his upside more than both.In most formats it would be a statement on Blackmon, I think. But his value is lowered by format. 14 team, non-PPR, start 2, 2 flex spots, and TE=WR. It is easier to get a solid WR2 than a QB1. Also own Nicks, Wallace, Bryant, Austin. Only mention to counter the fact that I own Newton too.
 
'ctrlaltdefeat said:
YPC is great on paper but who knows if he'll ever get a chance to be the feature back. Once deangelo is gone they'll bring in someone else for him to share carries with. Great players stay on the field every down because you can't afford to sit them. Stewart isn't that type of back.
Well, apparently neither are Aaron Rodgers or Steve Young or Ahman Green or Priest Holmes or Maurice Jones-Drew.
Did anyone of those backs sit through their prime years like Stewart has? Maybe he's just not that great.
Jones-Drew sat for three years. He was just fortunate that the all-NFL RB he shared a backfield with was 30, not 25. Otherwise, he would have spent even more of his prime in a time-share. Michael Turner also missed half his prime. These arguments against Stewart are literally the exact same arguments that were used against Jones-Drew in 2009. People said his ypc was inflated, that he physically couldn't handle the workload, and that his talent was wildly overrated because he couldn't keep Taylor off the field. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
 
Quick comment on the Stewart situation as a Carolina fan. Many of the locals in Charlotte wanted the team to move on from DeAngelo following the 2-14 season and give the reigns to Stewart with Goodson as the backup. To be clear, Panthers fans simply wanted the team to get something for DW, not let him walk for free like they did with Peppers. Instead Hurney resigned DW to a ridiculous contract. Most Carolina fans hate Hurney with a passion, and I'm convinced he has nudes of Richardson's wife to keep his job with such poor performance, but I digress.

The fact remains this Panthers team isn't very good, especially with all the injuries now piling up. They will be looking at every option to improve moving forward, and thanks to Hurney's spending spree to "protect the core" of a 2-14 team, are up against the cap moving forward.

Which brings us to the Williams contract. I dont remember the exact specifica, but DW can be cut following the season with significant savings against the cap for the team. I too was surprised when Stewart resigned with the team, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was with a wink and a nod that he'd get his shot next year and moving forward.

And Lord knows, eventually Hurney will get the axe.

 
'SSOG said:
'ctrlaltdefeat said:
When will you guys realize that Jonathan Stewart is nothing special, just a plain back that will likely never break out? Take him over McFadden? Haha good one
He already broke out. He has a top 12 finish in half a season as a starter. He owns the NFL record for most rushing yards in a player's first three starts. Only three RBs in the entire NFL have a higher career ypc. It just happens that one of those three RBs shares a backfield with him.
SSOG is right to remind us that Stewart has proven he is special. He happens to play with another very good back.His 2009 season helped me win a championship.
McFadden's 2010 season helped me win a championship in the league I am in with EBF.Following your logic, I guess that means DMC has proven he is special too. :hophead:

 
Agree with the folks questioning whether Stewart will ever be a FF RB1. I'm looking to move on in a bunch of leagues at this point, after being on board in most since I traded up for him as a rookie.

But that's based on factors other than his talent. Physically he is top shelf. In Houston or Washington he's probably in the mix for #1 at RB IMO. Being locked in in Carolina with the most prolific TD vulture ever takes sway his upside, with or even without DeAngelo.

 
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Thanks to all who contribute to this continually evolving thread. What are your thoughts on the dynasty prospects of Jake Locker vs Ryan Tannehill ? They both appeared to come into the league as projects at the quarterback position, yet with intriguing upside. I would've leaned heavily on Locker's side before the season began. After seeing Tannehill progress more quickly than expected despite the weapons he has to work with at the wr position, I am starting to lean the other direction. I am starting to get VERY intrigued by Tannehill's future prospects, assuming they try and build the team around him. Thoughts? :popcorn:

 
Lean Tannehill personally... As EBF and others have said, Locker has accuracy issues which may always hinder him.

Tannehill was a WR till his last two years at A&M, and now is producing better than expected numbers with really limited weapons. Big athleticism, big arm, big upside,IMO

 
Lean Tannehill personally... As EBF and others have said, Locker has accuracy issues which may always hinder him. Tannehill was a WR till his last two years at A&M, and now is producing better than expected numbers with really limited weapons. Big athleticism, big arm, big upside,IMO
Thanks for your reply. I am starting to lean this way too. Actually, despite the recent positive buzz surrounding Tannehill, I am thinking he's a bit underrated in the midst of all of the Luck RG3 hype (hype that is obviously justified).
 
Would agree. I can't buy him in my dynasty, which is frustrating... His owner has Newton as well, but refuses to deal Tannehill. Refuses to trade pretty much anyone unless it grossly favors him. Pretty annoying actually...

 
If you were trading Cam Newton for a non-QB in a league, what would you say is equivalent value?

It's not a "should I make this trade" thread. I'm looking to get a handle on equivalent values for players at different position.

For example, does the 11th ranked WR provide equal value as the 18th ranked RB? Does the 4th ranked TE equal the 8th ranked QB?

 
Thanks to all who contribute to this continually evolving thread. What are your thoughts on the dynasty prospects of Jake Locker vs Ryan Tannehill ? They both appeared to come into the league as projects at the quarterback position, yet with intriguing upside. I would've leaned heavily on Locker's side before the season began. After seeing Tannehill progress more quickly than expected despite the weapons he has to work with at the wr position, I am starting to lean the other direction. I am starting to get VERY intrigued by Tannehill's future prospects, assuming they try and build the team around him. Thoughts? :popcorn:
I was reading somewhere earlier today that the Dolphins coaching staff considers Tannehill much further along in his development than even they were expecting. The coach was saying that Tannehill was doing things that they would not expect from a QB until they were in their 5th or 6th year. Sorry no link, I am sure it is around here somewhere.Then with the rumors of the Dolphins possibly trading for Dwane Bowe would be a big boost to him as a prospect if that does actually happen.The rumors may have something to do with having trouble buying him at the moment. That and he has played really well.
 
If you were trading Cam Newton for a non-QB in a league, what would you say is equivalent value?It's not a "should I make this trade" thread. I'm looking to get a handle on equivalent values for players at different position.For example, does the 11th ranked WR provide equal value as the 18th ranked RB? Does the 4th ranked TE equal the 8th ranked QB?
It would depend greatly on your league setup. I personally value Newton as a top 3 QB, and would only consider moving him for (again, depending on league) guys like: Rice, Richadson, McCoy, Foster, Green, Calvin, Graham, Gronkowski, Rg3, Rodgers. Those are the other guys in the top tier at their positions.
 
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I would have no problem selling "high" on Tannehill. I think he can be good, but at this point he's Sam Bradford. In a 12 team league it's going to take a lot for him to offer real weekly benefit. More than Dwayne Bowe.

 
Would agree. I can't buy him in my dynasty, which is frustrating... His owner has Newton as well, but refuses to deal Tannehill. Refuses to trade pretty much anyone unless it grossly favors him. Pretty annoying actually...
Have you tried opening up the dialog?The trade I listed above was with the only guy in my league I had yet to trade with. I was sending offers, and a few e-mails, but nothing. Started really asking him his thoughts behind everything, taking time to see where he was coming from, and I think it helped. We didn't get the other trades done, but it could have laid the ground work for this deal.
 
'SSOG said:
'ctrlaltdefeat said:
When will you guys realize that Jonathan Stewart is nothing special, just a plain back that will likely never break out? Take him over McFadden? Haha good one
He already broke out. He has a top 12 finish in half a season as a starter. He owns the NFL record for most rushing yards in a player's first three starts. Only three RBs in the entire NFL have a higher career ypc. It just happens that one of those three RBs shares a backfield with him.
SSOG is right to remind us that Stewart has proven he is special. He happens to play with another very good back.His 2009 season helped me win a championship.
McFadden's 2010 season helped me win a championship in the league I am in with EBF.Following your logic, I guess that means DMC has proven he is special too. :hophead:
I don't profess to know if there is more to this story than meets the eye, but for 2-3 pages now you have provided no insight other than to attack EBF for his stance on McFadden. Your assertion that EBF provides no value to the McFadden discussion because "he has long been a McFadden detractor" doesn't come close to the lack of value you have provided by constantly looking for ways to belittle his belief. Furthermore, I could care less if someone has disliked a particular player from the first day they entered the league or whether they have loved a player from the first day. What I am interested in is their thought process behind said belief and the reasoning for continuing to feel that way. I don't get the logic that says you need to warn newcomers that someone has always been a detractor of a player because it literally doesn't matter to the discussion one bit whatsoever. If I was entering this thread for the first time, I truly could care less what someone's ingrained belief on a player is and it wouldn't matter at all if they were "biased" against a player. What I am interested in is what they see/believe that causes that ingrained belief (and for the record, we are not exactly talking about a player that has blown away any reason to have that belief every step of the way. There is a legitimate case to be made either way).I realize EBF doesn't need me fighting any battles for him, just found the incessant needling to be unproductive to the thread.

 
Something to add onto this whole RB debate.

Has anyone ever looked into the correlation between age and injuries.

It seems the younger the players are, the more they get banged up. I obviously haven't looked into this myself, but It seems like a pretty consistent theme to me, for both RBs and WRs.

Andre Calvin and Fitz all had season ending injuries within their first few years.. Calvin and Andre even labeled as injury prone.

Up and comers Julio Jones, Dez Bryant,Demaryius Thomas, Kenny Britt, Hakeem Nicks all seem to be banged up on a consistent basis also... among many others. All of them entered the league at around 21 or 22.

For RBs Frank Gore and Steven Jackson were known as some of the most injury prone backs around, once they hit 25 or 26, they rarely missed games after that point.

Look at the past few draft classes: Ryan Williams, Mikel Leshoure, CJ Spiller Mark Ingram and Even Trent Richardson have either consistently been on the injury report or had season ending injuries.

One of my theories on this is maybe young guys don't go the extra mile to keep their bodies in perfect shape(diet, serious off-season training) and maturity as a whole.

Perhaps when you get to the NFL it takes a few years to learn how to avoid contact, I really don't know, but it seems like something is consistent here.

Maybe their bodies aren't fully developed is another idea. Perhaps a full NFL season, in one way or another, causes an immature body to fail.

My main point here is, how many of these guys are actually injury prone?

It seems a larger % of these guys shed the Injury prone label around age 25 or 26.

But then again, to completely contradict myself.... guys like Adrian Peterson and Matt Forte, who have never been 'injury prone' , get season ending injuries around where I suspect most shed the label.

My head is spinning... someone figure this out for me LOL

 
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I would have no problem selling "high" on Tannehill. I think he can be good, but at this point he's Sam Bradford. In a 12 team league it's going to take a lot for him to offer real weekly benefit. More than Dwayne Bowe.
Glad you brought up Bradford. Where are we with him? I must say that last year he looked pretty bad a lot. I'm not talking about the fact that he had no weapons or no O-line. I'm talking about his decisions were bad, and his throws were inaccurate. This year he looks much better. His passes have been really impressive - lazers and right on the money. He's made some bad decisions, like his interception in the endzone last week against Miami. Personally, I'm pretty high on him and just paid a pretty decent price to acquire him in a start 2 QB league. But, I am a homer, so what are your guy's perspective?
 
Something to add onto this whole RB debate.Has anyone ever looked into the correlation between age and injuries. It seems the younger the players are, the more they get banged up. I obviously haven't looked into this myself, but It seems like a pretty consistent theme to me, for both RBs and WRs.Andre Calvin and Fitz all had season ending injuries within their first few years.. Calvin and Andre even labeled as injury prone.Up and comers Julio Jones, Dez Bryant,Demaryius Thomas, Kenny Britt, Hakeem Nicks all seem to be banged up on a consistent basis also... among many others. All of them entered the league at around 21 or 22.For RBs Frank Gore and Steven Jackson were known as some of the most injury prone backs around, once they hit 25 or 26, they rarely missed games after that point. Look at the past few draft classes: Ryan Williams, Mikel Leshoure, CJ Spiller Mark Ingram and Even Trent Richardson have either consistently been on the injury report or had season ending injuries.One of my theories on this is maybe young guys don't go the extra mile to keep their bodies in perfect shape(diet, serious off-season training) and maturity as a whole. Perhaps when you get to the NFL it takes a few years to learn how to avoid contact, I really don't know, but it seems like something is consistent here.Maybe their bodies aren't fully developed is another idea. Perhaps a full NFL season, in one way or another, causes an immature body to fail. My main point here is, how many of these guys are actually injury prone?It seems a larger % of these guys shed the Injury prone label around age 25 or 26. But then again, to completely contradict myself.... guys like Adrian Peterson and Matt Forte, who have never been 'injury prone' , get season ending injuries around where I suspect most shed the label.My head is spinning... someone figure this out for me LOL
It is an interesting question. I think that as a player ages it becomes more difficult to come back from a serious injury than when the player is younger. Another thing to consider is a older player may do a better job of protecting themselves than a younger player with more to prove.I did a cursory search on google and there are many studies out there but I did not come across one that really addresses your question yet.I did find this as I was searching though and enjoyed reading it again:
How Important is Age?Anyone over the age of nineteen knows from personal experience that age is a relevant factor in one's ability to perform physical (and mental) tasks. In this article, I'll examine the aging process and its effects on the physical (and mental) task of piling up fantasy points.In order to do this, I cracked open my season-by-season database, which contains complete career data for every player who was active in the NFL in 1998 or later. Then I proceeded with the following plan:Find all seasons in which the player in question was age N, and note his performance. The metric I'll use is Fantasy Points, defined as follows1 point per 10 yards rushing or receiving1 point per 25 yards passing6 points for any TD-3 points for an INT thrownFor example, in 1996, Terrell Davis was 24 years old, and he tallied 275 fantasy points.Note how the same player did the next season. Continuing with the same example, Davis, at age 25, racked up 294 fantasy points in 1997. Technical note: I only considered players who scored at least 50 fantasy points in one of the two seasons.For each N, count up how many players were better at age N than at age N+1. In the above example, Terrell Davis improved from age 24 to 25, so he serves as evidence that running backs perform better at age 25 than at age 24.Let's just get to the results for running backs before we talk about what it all means.Running Backs TOTAL BETTER AT WORSE AT PCTN NUMBER AGE N+1 AGE N+1 IMPROVED-------------------------------------------------------21 11 5 6 4522 43 23 20 5423 69 40 29 5824 77 44 33 5725 62 32 30 5226 57 31 26 5427 39 20 19 5128 34 13 21 3829 26 10 16 3830 19 7.5 11.5 3931+ 12 4 8 33Just to be sure we're all on the same page here, look at the 24 row. It says that I found 77 24-year-old running backs in my database. 44 of them did better at 25 than 24, and 33 did worse. Thus 570f all the backs I considered improved from age 24 to age 25.Sure, it's true that many backs in the study improved or decline for reasons having nothing to do with their age -- injuries, changing teams, a change in surrounding personnel or coaching staff, etc. These are all things that this study does not account for. The idea is to collect enough data that these external factors even out (e.g. the same percentage of 24-year-olds changed teams as 28-year-olds). I'd be more confident in the results if I had more data, but for now this is the best I can do.Let's organize this into bigger groups in order to extract the general trend: TOTAL BETTER AT WORSE AT PCTN NUMBER AGE N+1 AGE N+1 IMPROVED-------------------------------------------------------under 27 319 175 144 5527 39 20 19 51over 27 91 34.5 56.5 38 This tends to suggest that the peak period for running backs is age 27-28. As a group, running backs under 27 tend to improve, and running backs over 27 tend to decline.Note that these results describe a general phenomenon, and are not to be taken as a prediction about any individual running back. Saying that 60% of all RBs Emmitt Smith's age decline the next year is not the same as saying that Emmitt Smith has a 60hance of declining. To see the difference, consider: about 400f all people will become pregnant at some time in their life. Does that mean you have a 40hance of becoming pregnant? Not necessarily. There are some factors inherent to you that might explain why your particular chance is greater than or less than that of the rest of the group in general.Back to Emmitt Smith. 600f all backs in his age group tend to decline, but there may be factors inherent to Emmitt that will cause him to buck the trend. If you think you can identify some factors like that, by all means don't be afraid to project improvement for Emmitt.The bottom line is this: this study tells me that there is a general force pulling Emmitt down. Based on that, I refuse to project improvement for Emmitt unless I can think of specific reasons why Emmitt's situation is different from that of a typical 30-year-old RB (turning 31) -- maybe a couple of new offensive lineman, maybe a new system that will get him more touches, maybe he's healthy this year after fighting through injuries last year -- things like that. With respect to Emmitt in particular for this year in particular, I don't see any real reason why he'd buck the trend. Thus, I expect Emmitt to decline. You may come to a different conclusion, but just make sure you have a good reason for doing so. Also note that Emmitt may decline and still be a very valuable back. By no means am I telling you to cross him off your list.One more note before we leave running backs. It's not at all clear to me how much of the "aging" process comes in the form of the physical pounding running backs take, and how much is just general age-based decay that we all experience. For example, Stephen Davis is 26 this year, but it's possible that his body thinks he's more like 24 because he hasn't taken nearly as many hits in his NFL career as most backs have by the time they're 26. That's not an unreasonable assertion. On the other hand, studies have shown that baseball players (hitters, anyway) peak right around the same time -- age 27 or 28 -- and they don't take any physical pounding. It's a tough call, but my opinion (i.e. guess) is that the pattern we see here for RBs is due to regular old aging and is not being unduly accelerated by the particular physical requirements of the job. I'm inclined to treat Davis like any other 26-year-old, but I won't try to change your mind if you think otherwise.Receivers (including TEs) TOTAL BETTER AT WORSE AT PCTN NUMBER AGE N+1 AGE N+1 IMPROVED-------------------------------------------------------22 48 35 13 7323 103 71.5 31.5 6924 117 63 54 5425 113 60 53 5326 109 53 56 4927 82 35 47 4328 61 30 31 4929 52 26 26 5030 34 8 26 2431 24 7 17 2932+ 33 10 23 30The trend here is not quite as clear in terms of finding the peak, but note the cliff at age 30. Let's try slicing it this way. TOTAL BETTER AT WORSE AT PCTN NUMBER AGE N+1 AGE N+1 IMPROVED----------------------------------------------------------under 24 151 106.5 44.5 7124-29 534 267 267 50over 29 91 25 66 27This is a much different picture than what we saw for running backs. Young receivers are more likely to improve than young RBs. My guess is that this occurs because young RBs are more likely to already be good than young receivers are. Old receivers are more likely to decline than old RBs. I can't think of a good explanation for this, but the data is compelling.Did you know Marvin Harrison will be 28 this season and Randy Moss only 23? Something to think about for you dynasty league types.QuarterbacksI expected to find no clear trends at all for QBs. Let's see. TOTAL BETTER AT WORSE AT PCTN NUMBER AGE N+1 AGE N+1 IMPROVED-------------------------------------------------------22 7 6 1 8623 33 24 9 7324 49 28 21 5725 51 24 27 4726 46 25 21 5427 41 18 23 4428 35 21 14 6029 32 12 20 3830 30 14 16 4731 29 14 15 4832 24 17 7 7133 19 8 11 4234 16 5 11 3135 21 7 14 3336+ 26 11 15 42It's clearer than I anticipated. TOTAL BETTER AT WORSE AT PCTN NUMBER AGE N+1 AGE N+1 IMPROVED----------------------------------------------------------under 25 89 58 31 6525-32 288 145 143 50over 32 82 31 51 38 This looks fairly similar to the receivers, except that the peak appears to be a little longer and a little later. Again, it's no mystery that QBs under 25 tend to improve. They typically start off so bad that there's nowhere to go but up. Then, there's about an 8-year stretch where age doesn't seem to be much of a factor. Finally, while there always seems to a few oldsters out there putting up solid numbers, the decline phase does kick in around 32, so remember that those guys are the exception rather than the rule.Short Summary:According to this data, the word "old" means 28 for a running back, 30 for a receiver, and 32 for a quarterback. This is probably not a surprise, as it squares fairly well with conventional wisdom.Old players, as a group, will decline, although the phenomenon is far from universal. In fact, the age factor is much weaker than I would have guessed, and should probably rank relatively low on your list of considerations when projecting players. Still, it is there, and while it's not uncommon for old players to improve, it's probably not wise to count on it, unless you have a good reason for doing so.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/articles/age.htmHere is a more recent study -
Have you always wondered how likely it is for a running back to return to Top 10 Running Back Form after an ACL tear? The data linked to this article will finally answer all of those ACL-related questions!View Data & ResearchACL tears are a serious matter for fantasy football running back success. While the data below shows that it is completely possible for runners to rebound after ACL tears, there are several factors that the savvy owner should be aware of. Comparing all seasons of RBs pre-ACL injury and a group of RBs who have never had ACL tears, you find that the fantasy success rate of these RBs is almost identical among the 88 total seasons studied. The rate of top-10 finishes among both groups is about 55%, while the top-20 finish rate among both groups is about 75-80%. This suggests we are studying and comparing relatively equal RB skill levels. The data shows that seasons during or post ACL injury, fantasy success rates go down dramatically. With a comparable set of 69 total “post-injury” seasons, the rate of top-10 fantasy finishes drops to only 28% while the rate of top-20 finishes drops to 49%. The effect of ACL injuries for RBs should not be ignored.Age MattersAnother matter of importance is the age in which the injury occurred. Among the group studied, Edgerrin James was the only RB who experienced consistent post ACL tear success after an ACL injury sustained in the NFL. At time of his injury, Edge was only 23 years old.Even more interesting, however, is that:There was only ONE top-10 fantasy finish among RBs who tore an ACL after the age of 23, and that one top-10 finish was Adrian Peterson’s 2011 season, as he had enough yardage to stick to the top-10 during his injury season.Out of the 16 other post-ACL seasons by RBs who tore their ACL after the age of 23, there were ZERO top-10 fantasy finishes.Only two of those 16 seasons resulted in 1,000 total rushing yards (Deuce McAllister and Jamal Anderson), although, neither season was good enough for top-10 fantasy performance.ConclusionWhile the group studied obviously is not large enough to make a definitive statement, based on the findings, there is good news and bad news to take from this report. Many fantasy owners worry about collegiate injury history when drafting rookies…College ACL Tears Can Absolutely Be OvercomeACL tears suffered in college do not appear to have a debilitating effect on NFL success, and owners should not ignore players like Frank Gore or Willis McGahee in their rookie drafts, although, they should understand inconsistent play will result in a possible “boom or bust” dynasty player from season to season.Did You Know?Holy Garrison Hearst !Note: Garrison Hearst tore his ACL way before the NFL, back in 1991, and never knew it; due to league-driven pressures, Hearst had surgery to repair the ACL prior to entering the NFL. Read more on this and why Hearst didn’t even need an ACL!ACL Tears After 23: Approach With Extreme Caution!On the flip side, ACL tears suffered after the age of 23 should be approached with extreme caution, regardless of prior success. As the body ages, its ability to heal itself and recover from serious injury to play at the elite athletic levels required in the NFL drops dramatically. The fact that these RBs who sustain injury late in their careers have trouble putting together elite fantasy seasons should temper fantasy owners’ expectations. There are still good buy-low opportunities for fantasy owners who can tolerate high levels of risk/reward, however these RBs should not be drafted as cornerstone players for a franchise, especially during dynasty start-ups.More Runners To Study Moving ForwardIn 2012, we will get to see these theories put to test. Adrian Peterson and Jamaal Charles sustained injuries after the age of 23 and will have to prove their return to elite performance before owners should justify giving 2nd and 3rd round dynasty start-up value. During dynasty start-ups, savvy owners should consider overall value before diving into RBs coming off injuries; fully understand the risk involved with all injuries before drafting!
http://draftcalc.com/fantasy-football-content/articles/dont-tear-your-acl-after-23-years-of-age/
 
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I don't profess to know if there is more to this story than meets the eye, but for 2-3 pages now you have provided no insight other than to attack EBF for his stance on McFadden. Your assertion that EBF provides no value to the McFadden discussion because "he has long been a McFadden detractor" doesn't come close to the lack of value you have provided by constantly looking for ways to belittle his belief. Furthermore, I could care less if someone has disliked a particular player from the first day they entered the league or whether they have loved a player from the first day. What I am interested in is their thought process behind said belief and the reasoning for continuing to feel that way. I don't get the logic that says you need to warn newcomers that someone has always been a detractor of a player because it literally doesn't matter to the discussion one bit whatsoever. If I was entering this thread for the first time, I truly could care less what someone's ingrained belief on a player is and it wouldn't matter at all if they were "biased" against a player. What I am interested in is what they see/believe that causes that ingrained belief (and for the record, we are not exactly talking about a player that has blown away any reason to have that belief every step of the way. There is a legitimate case to be made either way).

I realize EBF doesn't need me fighting any battles for him, just found the incessant needling to be unproductive to the thread.
The bolded is pretty much the platonic ideal of our opinion-forming process, but the reality is sadly a different beast entirely. It's not that we see evidence, form a belief, and then take in all new data in an open minded manner and continually revise our existing belief. Instead, we are all slaves to far and away the most pervasive cognitive bias out there- confirmation bias. We take in and assimilate information that reinforces our preexisting beliefs, while ignoring information that contradicts. It's not a conscious process, so it's impossible to avoid, even if we are aware of it and on guard against it. We engage in motivated reasoning, where our mental faculties are bent, not towards objectively parsing the data, but towards crafting arguments to defend our initial position. There are just some players that, no matter what, we'll always have a blind spot on. That's why, when I was compiling my own rankings, I would always follow up by comparing them to other available rankings and hedging some of my more extreme positions. Yes, this led to a slightly more homogenized set of rankings, but it was really the only way to guard against my own biases, prejudices, and preconceptions. That's why spirited discussions like these are so valuable- other, neutral third parties can more readily see when we're engaging in motivated reasoning and ignoring a substantial portion of the evidence in front of us.
Something to add onto this whole RB debate.

Has anyone ever looked into the correlation between age and injuries.

It seems the younger the players are, the more they get banged up. I obviously haven't looked into this myself, but It seems like a pretty consistent theme to me, for both RBs and WRs.

Andre Calvin and Fitz all had season ending injuries within their first few years.. Calvin and Andre even labeled as injury prone.

Up and comers Julio Jones, Dez Bryant,Demaryius Thomas, Kenny Britt, Hakeem Nicks all seem to be banged up on a consistent basis also... among many others. All of them entered the league at around 21 or 22.

For RBs Frank Gore and Steven Jackson were known as some of the most injury prone backs around, once they hit 25 or 26, they rarely missed games after that point.

Look at the past few draft classes: Ryan Williams, Mikel Leshoure, CJ Spiller Mark Ingram and Even Trent Richardson have either consistently been on the injury report or had season ending injuries.

One of my theories on this is maybe young guys don't go the extra mile to keep their bodies in perfect shape(diet, serious off-season training) and maturity as a whole.

Perhaps when you get to the NFL it takes a few years to learn how to avoid contact, I really don't know, but it seems like something is consistent here.

Maybe their bodies aren't fully developed is another idea. Perhaps a full NFL season, in one way or another, causes an immature body to fail.

My main point here is, how many of these guys are actually injury prone?

It seems a larger % of these guys shed the Injury prone label around age 25 or 26.

But then again, to completely contradict myself.... guys like Adrian Peterson and Matt Forte, who have never been 'injury prone' , get season ending injuries around where I suspect most shed the label.

My head is spinning... someone figure this out for me LOL
My first blush thought is that I'm extremely skeptical that injuries would be more common among young players. My second blush thought is that, actually, injuries might very well be more common among younger players, due to selection bias and other lurking variables. For instance, 40 year old QBs probably are less likely to get hurt than 33 year old QBs, because if you were injury prone, you'd be out of the league before age 40- only the most durable players survive, so it'd be no surprise if the players who survived wound up being more durable. With that said, I think the phenomenon you're noticing (young studs tend to get hurt) really is a much larger phenomenon. The NFL is a violent sport, and EVERYONE tends to get hurt. Literally every player in the league is a massive injury risk. Injuries to young players are less likely to be career-ending (if Michael Turner tears his ACL, teams probably won't be interested in a 2-year rehab project of a back on the wrong side of 30). Young players also recover from injuries quicker, and are more likely to return to pre-injury form. As a result, you should expect to see a lot of grizzled vets who had injury problems in their youth (because they had plenty of opportunity to recover), and fewer grizzled vets who had injury problems late in their career (because they were more likely to be cast aside).

I'd be interested in seeing the data on the subject, but I'd be surprised if my initial reactions didn't hold up. Anatomy and physiology are cruel mistresses, but they are nothing if not inexorably predictable. As the body ages, it becomes more susceptible to life's ravages, not less so.

 
I don't profess to know if there is more to this story than meets the eye, but for 2-3 pages now you have provided no insight other than to attack EBF for his stance on McFadden. Your assertion that EBF provides no value to the McFadden discussion because "he has long been a McFadden detractor" doesn't come close to the lack of value you have provided by constantly looking for ways to belittle his belief. Furthermore, I could care less if someone has disliked a particular player from the first day they entered the league or whether they have loved a player from the first day. What I am interested in is their thought process behind said belief and the reasoning for continuing to feel that way. I don't get the logic that says you need to warn newcomers that someone has always been a detractor of a player because it literally doesn't matter to the discussion one bit whatsoever. If I was entering this thread for the first time, I truly could care less what someone's ingrained belief on a player is and it wouldn't matter at all if they were "biased" against a player. What I am interested in is what they see/believe that causes that ingrained belief (and for the record, we are not exactly talking about a player that has blown away any reason to have that belief every step of the way. There is a legitimate case to be made either way).

I realize EBF doesn't need me fighting any battles for him, just found the incessant needling to be unproductive to the thread.
The bolded is pretty much the platonic ideal of our opinion-forming process, but the reality is sadly a different beast entirely. It's not that we see evidence, form a belief, and then take in all new data in an open minded manner and continually revise our existing belief. Instead, we are all slaves to far and away the most pervasive cognitive bias out there- confirmation bias. We take in and assimilate information that reinforces our preexisting beliefs, while ignoring information that contradicts. It's not a conscious process, so it's impossible to avoid, even if we are aware of it and on guard against it. We engage in motivated reasoning, where our mental faculties are bent, not towards objectively parsing the data, but towards crafting arguments to defend our initial position. There are just some players that, no matter what, we'll always have a blind spot on. That's why, when I was compiling my own rankings, I would always follow up by comparing them to other available rankings and hedging some of my more extreme positions. Yes, this led to a slightly more homogenized set of rankings, but it was really the only way to guard against my own biases, prejudices, and preconceptions. That's why spirited discussions like these are so valuable- other, neutral third parties can more readily see when we're engaging in motivated reasoning and ignoring a substantial portion of the evidence in front of us.
Something to add onto this whole RB debate.

Has anyone ever looked into the correlation between age and injuries.

It seems the younger the players are, the more they get banged up. I obviously haven't looked into this myself, but It seems like a pretty consistent theme to me, for both RBs and WRs.

Andre Calvin and Fitz all had season ending injuries within their first few years.. Calvin and Andre even labeled as injury prone.

Up and comers Julio Jones, Dez Bryant,Demaryius Thomas, Kenny Britt, Hakeem Nicks all seem to be banged up on a consistent basis also... among many others. All of them entered the league at around 21 or 22.

For RBs Frank Gore and Steven Jackson were known as some of the most injury prone backs around, once they hit 25 or 26, they rarely missed games after that point.

Look at the past few draft classes: Ryan Williams, Mikel Leshoure, CJ Spiller Mark Ingram and Even Trent Richardson have either consistently been on the injury report or had season ending injuries.

One of my theories on this is maybe young guys don't go the extra mile to keep their bodies in perfect shape(diet, serious off-season training) and maturity as a whole.

Perhaps when you get to the NFL it takes a few years to learn how to avoid contact, I really don't know, but it seems like something is consistent here.

Maybe their bodies aren't fully developed is another idea. Perhaps a full NFL season, in one way or another, causes an immature body to fail.

My main point here is, how many of these guys are actually injury prone?

It seems a larger % of these guys shed the Injury prone label around age 25 or 26.

But then again, to completely contradict myself.... guys like Adrian Peterson and Matt Forte, who have never been 'injury prone' , get season ending injuries around where I suspect most shed the label.

My head is spinning... someone figure this out for me LOL
My first blush thought is that I'm extremely skeptical that injuries would be more common among young players. My second blush thought is that, actually, injuries might very well be more common among younger players, due to selection bias and other lurking variables. For instance, 40 year old QBs probably are less likely to get hurt than 33 year old QBs, because if you were injury prone, you'd be out of the league before age 40- only the most durable players survive, so it'd be no surprise if the players who survived wound up being more durable. With that said, I think the phenomenon you're noticing (young studs tend to get hurt) really is a much larger phenomenon. The NFL is a violent sport, and EVERYONE tends to get hurt. Literally every player in the league is a massive injury risk. Injuries to young players are less likely to be career-ending (if Michael Turner tears his ACL, teams probably won't be interested in a 2-year rehab project of a back on the wrong side of 30). Young players also recover from injuries quicker, and are more likely to return to pre-injury form. As a result, you should expect to see a lot of grizzled vets who had injury problems in their youth (because they had plenty of opportunity to recover), and fewer grizzled vets who had injury problems late in their career (because they were more likely to be cast aside).

I'd be interested in seeing the data on the subject, but I'd be surprised if my initial reactions didn't hold up. Anatomy and physiology are cruel mistresses, but they are nothing if not inexorably predictable. As the body ages, it becomes more susceptible to life's ravages, not less so.
The bolded is a quote I'm saving and putting somewhere :thumbup: ... Brings on a topic larger and more interesting than fantasy football, at least to me. Either way(to your response to me), The point you bring up is a good one. The problem is it makes this idea almost impossible to get a grasp on.

 
'SSOG said:
'Herm23 said:
I don't profess to know if there is more to this story than meets the eye, but for 2-3 pages now you have provided no insight other than to attack EBF for his stance on McFadden. Your assertion that EBF provides no value to the McFadden discussion because "he has long been a McFadden detractor" doesn't come close to the lack of value you have provided by constantly looking for ways to belittle his belief. Furthermore, I could care less if someone has disliked a particular player from the first day they entered the league or whether they have loved a player from the first day. What I am interested in is their thought process behind said belief and the reasoning for continuing to feel that way. I don't get the logic that says you need to warn newcomers that someone has always been a detractor of a player because it literally doesn't matter to the discussion one bit whatsoever. If I was entering this thread for the first time, I truly could care less what someone's ingrained belief on a player is and it wouldn't matter at all if they were "biased" against a player. What I am interested in is what they see/believe that causes that ingrained belief (and for the record, we are not exactly talking about a player that has blown away any reason to have that belief every step of the way. There is a legitimate case to be made either way).

I realize EBF doesn't need me fighting any battles for him, just found the incessant needling to be unproductive to the thread.
The bolded is pretty much the platonic ideal of our opinion-forming process, but the reality is sadly a different beast entirely. It's not that we see evidence, form a belief, and then take in all new data in an open minded manner and continually revise our existing belief. Instead, we are all slaves to far and away the most pervasive cognitive bias out there- confirmation bias. We take in and assimilate information that reinforces our preexisting beliefs, while ignoring information that contradicts. It's not a conscious process, so it's impossible to avoid, even if we are aware of it and on guard against it. We engage in motivated reasoning, where our mental faculties are bent, not towards objectively parsing the data, but towards crafting arguments to defend our initial position. There are just some players that, no matter what, we'll always have a blind spot on. That's why, when I was compiling my own rankings, I would always follow up by comparing them to other available rankings and hedging some of my more extreme positions. Yes, this led to a slightly more homogenized set of rankings, but it was really the only way to guard against my own biases, prejudices, and preconceptions. That's why spirited discussions like these are so valuable- other, neutral third parties can more readily see when we're engaging in motivated reasoning and ignoring a substantial portion of the evidence in front of us.
I actually completely agree with you. I suppose the difference is that you use logic and facts to generally try and poke holes in EBF's (or anyone for that matter) position and try and prove, rightly or wrongly, why they are either clouded or just plain wrong. The part I took umbrage with was the "na na na boo boo" mentality of attacking EBF for having the belief, but providing no effort whatsoever to disprove it or show why he might be wrong.Essentially the way you went about it was highly constructive and benefited the discussion, while some of the seemingly personal attacks that others did were not so much.

 
'Herm23 said:
I don't get the logic that says you need to warn newcomers that someone has always been a detractor of a player because it literally doesn't matter to the discussion one bit whatsoever.
A preexisting bias, either postive or negative can warp a person's view of a player to the point that they have no objectivity in the matter. That is why many of the long term posters will give a disclaimer with their opinion that (for instance) they have been pimping a certain player for years or have never liked him.People sometimes give undue credibility to those who have over 10,000 posts and/or have been here since 2003 and/or post rankings. A newbie might assume that this poster may actually know what they are talking about and they probably wouldn't expect someone to cherry pick stats and give out misleading information, only because they can't just bring themselves to ever admit they were wrong on a certain player. You don't care about someone's long and extensive posted history of bias in regards to a given player and that is fine. On the other hand, that is information I would want to know and I believe others here do too. People invest real money in fantasy leagues based in part on information posted in this forum - I believe they should be made aware of blatant preexisting bias if the OP fails to disclose it.
 
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'Concept Coop said:
Have you tried opening up the dialog?
I have... He and I are in several leagues together across baseball and football. He's a good guy, smart owner. Problem is he's never interested in a deal unless it grossly favors him. I'd have to give him something ridiculous like Rivers and 2 firsts or something absurd.
 
'SSOG said:
The bolded is pretty much the platonic ideal of our opinion-forming process, but the reality is sadly a different beast entirely. It's not that we see evidence, form a belief, and then take in all new data in an open minded manner and continually revise our existing belief. Instead, we are all slaves to far and away the most pervasive cognitive bias out there- confirmation bias. We take in and assimilate information that reinforces our preexisting beliefs, while ignoring information that contradicts. It's not a conscious process, so it's impossible to avoid, even if we are aware of it and on guard against it. We engage in motivated reasoning, where our mental faculties are bent, not towards objectively parsing the data, but towards crafting arguments to defend our initial position. There are just some players that, no matter what, we'll always have a blind spot on. That's why, when I was compiling my own rankings, I would always follow up by comparing them to other available rankings and hedging some of my more extreme positions. Yes, this led to a slightly more homogenized set of rankings, but it was really the only way to guard against my own biases, prejudices, and preconceptions. That's why spirited discussions like these are so valuable- other, neutral third parties can more readily see when we're engaging in motivated reasoning and ignoring a substantial portion of the evidence in front of us.
:goodposting: This is an excellant post. As crazy as I think EBF is regarding McFadden, I respect him and his opinion on players quite a bit, and his comments at the very least will make me re-evaluate my own positions on specific players.
 
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'Spike said:
If you were trading Cam Newton for a non-QB in a league, what would you say is equivalent value?It's not a "should I make this trade" thread. I'm looking to get a handle on equivalent values for players at different position.For example, does the 11th ranked WR provide equal value as the 18th ranked RB? Does the 4th ranked TE equal the 8th ranked QB?
I have a txt file on my computer with a list of 11 players that I would not trade in a dynasty league unless I was getting at least one player from the list back in return. The guys on that list are...AARON RODGERSCAM NEWTONROBERT GRIFFINANDREW LUCKTRENT RICHARDSONCALVIN JOHNSONDEMARYIUS THOMASJULIO JONESAJ GREENDEZ BRYANTJIMMY GRAHAMMaybe I've been a bit too slow to react to Newton's struggles, but I think it's just as likely that people are overreacting to a small sample size of games and also misreading the stats. I've always felt that the general way of looking at QB stats (judging players by their total passing yards and TDs) is completely flawed because totals are meaningless in the absence of information about attempts. I think yards per attempt tells you more about a QB's performance than any other single stat. With that in mind, Newton is still doing very well. His accuracy has dropped from last year, but it's a negligible difference and his YPA has actually gone up. He ranks among the very top passers in the league in YPA. In other words...he's actually been playing pretty well, but that's been obscured by the low number of passing attempts and passing TDs, and a relatively high number of INTs. The latter two are legitimate concerns, but we're talking about a sample size of 5 games and a player who plays a position with a notoriously steep learning curve. I don't think there's enough hard evidence here to really justify the apparent drop in his perceived value. He's still really young and really raw, but also extremely talented. To me he's still an elite player and a cornerstone that you can build a dynasty team around. I would move him for Rodgers in a heartbeat and I would probably move him for Griffin, but I would have to think twice about moving him for Luck and no other QB would interest me for Cam straight up at all. I think he's an elite asset. Something people need to pay through the nose to acquire. The problem is that people don't pay elite prices for QBs unless the format is skewed towards the position or the player in question is the must-buy flavor of the season (like RG3 now or Newton last year). I have the "problem" of having both Cam and Luck on the same roster in a 14 team ppr league with developmental players. Drafted Luck as a dev prospect in 2010. Drafted Newton with a rookie pick last year. I've been fortunate to have them both hit in a big way, but it's not doing much for my team because I can't get fair value for either of them in a trade. I shopped Newton around to 3-4 teams and got no serious interest. The bottom line is that in 10-14 team leagues, almost everyone already has a QB who's at least on the Eli-Roethlisberger-Rivers level, so it doesn't really make sense for them to carve a hole in their RB or WR group in order to upgrade the QB position (where they might not be great, but are usually at least competitive). So while I think you should be able to get a player like Dez Bryant or Julio Jones for Cam, NOBODY is going to accept that offer (even if they should). Your option is to either move him below his actual value (for a FF WR2 type, draft picks, or some kind of prospect who hasn't fully hit yet), or to remain patient and sell him when the perceived value catches up with the actual value and some QB-starved team decides that they're willing to pay fair value for a top young player.
 
Don't have much to say about McFadden and don't really want to go back down that road again, but if you go back and read what I was saying about him prior to the 2008 draft I think I actually had his career nailed pretty well. Elite speed and home run skills. Not a consistent back who can grind out years in adverse conditions or stay healthy under a full workload. Not a total bust, but definitely a guy who was overrated and didn't live up to the hype.

If I really had a lot of trouble swallowing my pride then I would be sitting here rambling on about how overrated Brandon Marshall and Frank Gore are, but that's just not the case. When I get an evaluation wrong, I'm usually pretty quick to recognize it. In the case of McFadden, I don't have any regrets because he appears to be exactly who I said he would be. I'm not sure how this qualifies as some type of deranged bias. If the guy was producing on a Peterson/MJD level and I was still saying these things then sure, but that isn't how his career has unfolded thus far at all.

 
Problem is he's never interested in a deal unless it grossly favors him.
Welcome to FF.You just described 90% of the owners in my leagues. :wall:
He's actually describing 100% of humans. It's loss aversion, and it's a hard-wired short circuit in our mental processing. We perceive losses as greater than gains. Some people, through experience and confidence in their evaluations, get to the point where they can work around it, but it never goes away entirely, and without that wealth of experience and bold confidence, it'll override any potential trade unless the gains far outweigh the losses. For what it's worth, monkeys are exactly the same. If you give a monkey a banana, he's going to be thrilled with you. If you give him two bananas and then take one away, he's going to try to maul you. Both instances produce the same result (the monkey has one more banana than he did), but in the second scenario, he can't see past the loss to appreciate the gain.
 
'Concept Coop said:
Just traded for Andy Dalton. He has had a cake schedule and done most of his damage against two of the worst defenses in the NFL. That said, I like his situation. He has a Stafford like potential, if the Bengals keep building around Dalton/Green, which I expect them to. Moved Blackmon and Sanchez in a RB/QB heavy, non-PPR league. I know this could go in the trade thread, but we were talking about young QBs earlier, and I thought this might be worth sharing.
I think now is the time to sell Dalton, most look at him and see the yards and TD's. The problem is his play has been pretty poor. Lots of turnovers, pick 6's, and consistent inability to make plays when the designed call breaks down. I'm sure he looked strong vs. Jax and Washington (2 strong statistical games against inferior opponents) but I've watched his other 4 games and the only good performance was against the Joe Haden-less Browns. He continues to play well against the worst of the NFL and looks overmatched against average or better units, this is not a recipe for longevity in the league. A lot of pressure is on him tomorrow night against an aging defense that he should pick apart, we'll see how he does in a big spot.
 
'Rushmore said:
Thanks to all who contribute to this continually evolving thread. What are your thoughts on the dynasty prospects of Jake Locker vs Ryan Tannehill ? They both appeared to come into the league as projects at the quarterback position, yet with intriguing upside. I would've leaned heavily on Locker's side before the season began. After seeing Tannehill progress more quickly than expected despite the weapons he has to work with at the wr position, I am starting to lean the other direction. I am starting to get VERY intrigued by Tannehill's future prospects, assuming they try and build the team around him. Thoughts? :popcorn:
Tannehill, without a doubt. I jumped ship from him because I thought he was a project that was over drafted into a bad situation, these types often times do not develop and I wanted no part of it. He has come around A LOT faster than I thought he would. I don't think I'm going overboard by saying the Fins have FINALLY found their replacement to Marino. Yeah, Marino. Get him a real WR next year and he's going to take off.I have the same accuracy concerns about Locker as EBF, always have, as long as he's starting I like him for redraft purposes but don't really want anything to do with him in dynasty. I don't think he has a long career in the league.
 
'ItsOnlytheRiver said:
'thriftyrocker said:
I would have no problem selling "high" on Tannehill. I think he can be good, but at this point he's Sam Bradford. In a 12 team league it's going to take a lot for him to offer real weekly benefit. More than Dwayne Bowe.
Glad you brought up Bradford. Where are we with him? I must say that last year he looked pretty bad a lot. I'm not talking about the fact that he had no weapons or no O-line. I'm talking about his decisions were bad, and his throws were inaccurate. This year he looks much better. His passes have been really impressive - lazers and right on the money. He's made some bad decisions, like his interception in the endzone last week against Miami. Personally, I'm pretty high on him and just paid a pretty decent price to acquire him in a start 2 QB league. But, I am a homer, so what are your guy's perspective?
My gut and head tell me that Bradford is just a guy, but I keep stubbornly coming back to my pre draft opinion on him that he is going to be one of the next great QB's. Tough to change my opinion since he has never had the weapons around him, and somehow still doesn't, but when I have watched him I have seen self inflicted wounds in the red zone and consistently holding onto the ball too long leading to sacks. I haven't watched enugh of his games in his pro career (more than 5 but probably less than 10) to confidently say it, but from what I've seen I have serious doubts if he'll ever develop the ability to read NFL defenses. Seems to be the most logical conclusion. Although get him a horse WR and I wonder if that changes, maybe he just needs that guy to throw it to when his alternatives aren't open - he's never had that guy in the NFL.
 
'Rushmore said:
Thanks to all who contribute to this continually evolving thread. What are your thoughts on the dynasty prospects of Jake Locker vs Ryan Tannehill ? They both appeared to come into the league as projects at the quarterback position, yet with intriguing upside. I would've leaned heavily on Locker's side before the season began. After seeing Tannehill progress more quickly than expected despite the weapons he has to work with at the wr position, I am starting to lean the other direction. I am starting to get VERY intrigued by Tannehill's future prospects, assuming they try and build the team around him. Thoughts? :popcorn:
Tannehill, without a doubt. I jumped ship from him because I thought he was a project that was over drafted into a bad situation, these types often times do not develop and I wanted no part of it. He has come around A LOT faster than I thought he would. I don't think I'm going overboard by saying the Fins have FINALLY found their replacement to Marino. Yeah, Marino. Get him a real WR next year and he's going to take off.I have the same accuracy concerns about Locker as EBF, always have, as long as he's starting I like him for redraft purposes but don't really want anything to do with him in dynasty. I don't think he has a long career in the league.
Gotta agree with this. Locker has an incredible opportunity, but continues to fall short. He may get there, and if he does it'll be huge, but consistant failings (maybe too strong a word) are causing doubts. Tannehill is showing steady improvement and regularly exceeds his mild expectations. I won't use the M-word like Mac32 did, but he's looking good!
 
I have a txt file on my computer with a list of 11 players that I would not trade in a dynasty league unless I was getting at least one player from the list back in return. The guys on that list are...AARON RODGERSCAM NEWTONROBERT GRIFFINANDREW LUCKTRENT RICHARDSONCALVIN JOHNSONDEMARYIUS THOMASJULIO JONESAJ GREENDEZ BRYANTJIMMY GRAHAM
I agree with much of this list. However, I think I value Aaron Hernandez over Graham. AHern was hurt earlier, but he's back now (15 points in first game back on limited snaps), and now Graham is out (don't know how long, but might balance year end scoring). AHern is 3 years younger, and he's almost unstoppable with the ball in his hands. Many NFL analysts say that AHern, along with Calvin and Harvin, are the most matchup proof weapons in the game. Many might disagree, but I have AHern > Graham, and my no.1 dynasty TE.
 
I have the same accuracy concerns about Locker as EBF, always have, as long as he's starting I like him for redraft purposes but don't really want anything to do with him in dynasty. I don't think he has a long career in the league.
FWIW, Locker has the 5th highest "Accuracy Percentage" according to PFF.https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/10/17/32-observations-week-6/
 
Trying to sell Greg Jennings and Jonathan Stewart in a 12 team league, Jennings is probably my 6th or 7th WR right now, While it's probably the worst time to sell either, has anyone moved or aquired either recently and for what?

 
I have a txt file on my computer with a list of 11 players that I would not trade in a dynasty league unless I was getting at least one player from the list back in return. The guys on that list are...

AARON RODGERS

CAM NEWTON

ROBERT GRIFFIN

ANDREW LUCK

TRENT RICHARDSON

CALVIN JOHNSON

DEMARYIUS THOMAS

JULIO JONES

AJ GREEN

DEZ BRYANT

JIMMY GRAHAM
I agree with much of this list. However, I think I value Aaron Hernandez over Graham. AHern was hurt earlier, but he's back now (15 points in first game back on limited snaps), and now Graham is out (don't know how long, but might balance year end scoring). AHern is 3 years younger, and he's almost unstoppable with the ball in his hands. Many NFL analysts say that AHern, along with Calvin and Harvin, are the most matchup proof weapons in the game. Many might disagree, but I have AHern > Graham, and my no.1 dynasty TE.
I do not think it is a very good idea to rank a guy with injury issues that causes him to miss games over players who may also have injury issues but have not missed games.Hernandez is not match up proof when dings can take him out of the game. Gronk is hurt also but for the most part has played through it. The only way you can be right for doing this is if Hernandez does not miss any more time due to injuy. Given his brief career thus far I do not have a good reason to think Hernandez will not miss time again because of injury, particularly injuries that could be played through but won't be.

Brandon Lloyd has played great for the Patriots thus far and is fully healthy. I just do not see the opportunity available for Hernandez even when fully healthy that justifies your reasoning here.

ETA- Brandon Lloyd leads all WR in number of snaps plays from the WR position through 6 weeks with 447 offensive snaps played thus far. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/snapcounts

 
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Trying to sell Greg Jennings and Jonathan Stewart in a 12 team league, Jennings is probably my 6th or 7th WR right now, While it's probably the worst time to sell either, has anyone moved or aquired either recently and for what?
Currently in win now mode and gave Jennings and a '13 first for Andre Johnson. A lot to give up but I sorely needed a WR and the other owner is in complete rebuild mode.My thoughts on Jennings is that I don't think he'll be in GB after this year, he's not playing right now, and you can still sell him based on his name.

 
eh, I prefer FO's DVOA stat, which has Locker ranked #21 (out of 33 qualifying QBs).
Very true, and this brings up the value of comparing across various metrics. For example, Locker is one below Cam Newton in DVOA. Newton, however, is 15 slots below Locker in Accuracy Rating. Newton makes up for a lot with his rushing ability. However, discounting Locker due to accuracy and not having similar concerns about Newton, seems unwise.
 
'FreeBaGeL said:
'EBF said:
'ctrlaltdefeat said:
Ability, talent, potential - I hear these words all the time but Many times it doesn't translate to the field. I'd much rather have McFadden than Stewart in redrafts and dynasty. The one league I have Stewart in I'm always looking for someone else to start in his place. Almost like owning Chris Johnson except minus the breakout season.
The only reason Stewart isn't a top 10 FF back is because he doesn't get enough opportunities. Nothing to it besides that. He has been consistently productive his whole career on the few touches he has been given.

But he has been insanely unlucky in terms of situational factors. Not only has he been stuck to compete with one of the best RBs in the NFL for his entire career, but he also happens to be stuck with probably the best running QB in the NFL as well. So he has not one, but two elite rushers vulturing his chances. That's pretty insanely unlucky. If Andrew Luck had come out for the draft last year like everyone expected, Carolina would've drafted him and Newton never would've arrived in town to snake so many rushing TDs.

It is easy to forget how good Stewart is given how unlucky his career has been, but this is a guy who would probably be the unquestioned workhorse back for 25 of the teams in the NFL. He absolutely smokes guys like Alfred Morris, Arian Foster, and Stevan Ridley from an ability standpoint, but we don't get to see the production because of where he plays. The only RB who has had it worse in recent years might have been Sproles when he was in San Diego with Tomlinson and Turner.

I'm still one of the suckers who would gladly buy Stewart for a reasonable price. He's only 25 years old and his game is reminiscent of several backs who have shown good longevity (Benson, Ricky, Jackson, Turner, MJD). I do think he's likely to have a window at some point in his career where he's a reliable weekly FF starter, but it might not be until he's 27 or 28. Whether it's age finally catching up with D-Will or Stewart finally changing teams, something has to give eventually for Stewart.

But don't let his lack of use convince you that he's not the goods when all of the objective factors indicate that he is in fact an elite player. The guy has a Trent Richardson-Michael Turner-Maurice Drew type of BMI, but still clocked 4.46 at the combine and jumped 36.5" in the vert and 10'8" in the broad jump. He was a top 15 draft pick and has backed it up by logging a career 4.8 YPC average and never dipping below 4.3 YPC in a single season. You know what Adrian Peterson, Ray Rice, Maurice Drew, Steven Jackson, Frank Gore, LeSean McCoy, and Ryan Mathews have in common? Not one of them has a higher career YPC than Stewart.

The guy is a bad dude.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygCFW8DQWIo
I'm with you on Stewart's talent, but some of this stuff is disingenous.For starters, we can't take all of the onus off Stewart and blame it purely on luck. He had injury concerns coming out of college and hasn't shaken them in the pros, which likely plays a role in why he's not a 25 carry workhorse somewhere. Additionally, he had a chance to get out of Carolina coming up and he chose to re-up with them, knowing full well what it meant for his chances to be "the guy".

Additionally, there's more to the talk of YPC than just "he has a big one". Comparing his ypc to guys like Peterson is disingenuous because YPC will typically be higher for a committee back than a workhorse. You know that as well as anyone so I can only conclude that you're intentionally ignoring it to talk up a guy you've always been very high on. Stewart has spent the majority of his career in a RBBC on a team that had the best run-blocking line in football for half of it. When he's carried the load, it was usually at the end of the year on fresher legs. Of course his YPC will be high in that situation.

It's not just DeAngelo that we're comparing him too either. In the only season where both Stewart and Goodson received significant carries, Goodson beat him on YPC. In fact, heading into this year Stewart had never led the team in YPC during any season of his career. While Carolina has been an awful situation in terms of getting a lot of touches, it has been (prior to this year) a phenomenal situation for producing with those touches. RBBC and fresh legs with a great run blocking line. Everyone they've put back there has excelled with the touches they got.

I don't want this to come off like I'm bashing Stewart because I like him as well, and just bought him in my main dynasty league. However, I think it's only fair to point these things out. Stewart is not the stone cold lock to be a top 2 RB if only he were getting the touches as some talk him up to be. There are still plenty of questions as to whether he can actually handle that load, and how he'll perform when he's asked to do more without an elite line to run behind.
:goodposting:
 
'JFS171 said:
Which brings us to the Williams contract. I dont remember the exact specifica, but DW can be cut following the season with significant savings against the cap for the team. I too was surprised when Stewart resigned with the team, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was with a wink and a nod that he'd get his shot next year and moving forward.
Williams' contract details from Rotoworld:
7/29/2011: Signed a five-year, $43 million contract. The deal contains $21 million guaranteed, including a $16 million signing bonus and $5 million of Williams' second-year base salary. 2012: $5.25 million, 2013: $4.75 million, 2014: $5.75 million, 2015: $6.75 million, 2016: Free Agent
There are 3 seasons remaining on his contract after this season. I assume his $16M signing bonus is being prorated across the years of the contract for salary cap purposes, in standard fashion. If so, here is my take on his outlook:1. After this season, there would be $9.6M remaining to hit the cap. So if they cut him after this season, that means a $9.6M cap hit. I think it's much more likely they will pay him his $4.75M salary for 2013 and keep him.2. After the 2013 season, there would be $6.4M remaining to hit the cap. So if they cut him after the 2013 season, that means a $6.4M cap hit. I think it's much more likely they will pay him his $5.75M salary for 2014 and keep him. Or it's possible they could renegotiate his contract to extend him and reduce his cap numbers for 2013 and beyond.3. After the 2014 season, there would be just $3.2M remaining to hit the cap, so it seems likely they will not pay him his $6.75M salary. They would likely either cut him or renegotiate his salary and extend him another season or two, depending on how he is playing.Williams would have incentive to renegotiate after 2013 or 2014, since he would be turning 31 in April 2014 and 32 in April 2015, plus he already showed he prefers to stay with the Panthers.Bottom line, I think it is likely Williams is a Panther through his retirement from the NFL. And it seems likely Cam Newton and Tolbert will also be around throughout Stewart's prime.I own Stewart in one dynasty league, and I only start him when I have no other options. If I could trade him for anything useful, I would, but no one in my league values him.In non PPR leagues, he's only finished in the top 20 once, and it seems possible he never will again. It certainly seems like a long shot that he'll ever again finish as a RB1.
 

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