Nipsey
Footballguy
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Edward Snowden poll (5/20/14): Hero or Traitor? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Nipsey
- Start date
Jeff Vader
Footballguy
Enormous hero. And history will judge accordingly.
Josie Maran
Footballguy
No "Bit of both" option?
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I voted traitor and here's why.
Yes, maybe there is a grey area where he betrayed his country but at the same time the people have a right to know about the secret surveillance program, so did our allies.
However, he has run to the arms and maybe even directly aided Putin, and the Chinese communists, and who knows who else (indirectly, terrorists, other dictators?), who jail, torture, and murder their own people for free speech.
If anything, with all the info he has spilled re: approach, the Russians at least will be creating their own network to do untold damage to the lives of innocent people who wish to speak out.
So, yes, he is a traitor.
Also, I have no idea how people can support both Snowden and President Obama. If you back Snowden you must by default oppose the president who authorizes warrantless searches of our private communications.
Yes, maybe there is a grey area where he betrayed his country but at the same time the people have a right to know about the secret surveillance program, so did our allies.
However, he has run to the arms and maybe even directly aided Putin, and the Chinese communists, and who knows who else (indirectly, terrorists, other dictators?), who jail, torture, and murder their own people for free speech.
If anything, with all the info he has spilled re: approach, the Russians at least will be creating their own network to do untold damage to the lives of innocent people who wish to speak out.
So, yes, he is a traitor.
Also, I have no idea how people can support both Snowden and President Obama. If you back Snowden you must by default oppose the president who authorizes warrantless searches of our private communications.
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This is only true to the extent that you believe this is the only issue worthy of judging a president on.
Tom Servo
Nittany Beavers
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Really? Obama wants to jail this "hero", people support presidents who jail heroes? I'd really like to hear how that works.
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Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Voted hero.
If there were a legitimate outlet for whistle blowers I'd disagree with how he handled it, but given the recent persecution of people who've revealed obvious crimes it's hard to find fault with him IMO.
Having said...I think he's naive as hell.
If there were a legitimate outlet for whistle blowers I'd disagree with how he handled it, but given the recent persecution of people who've revealed obvious crimes it's hard to find fault with him IMO.
Having said...I think he's naive as hell.
I don't necessarily disagree with your evaluation of either Snowden or Obama. Indeed, you make some very good -- and for that reason, oft-repeated -- arguments about the potential harm that comes from acts like Snowden's.
I only disagree with your logic.
You tried to take your perfectly valid premises and turn them into a sweeping condemnation of Obama, and a cry that logic dictates that if one agrees with your take on Snowden, one must logically oppose the president. You tried to take a perfectly valid concern and turn it into a Fox News talking point/fallacious condemnation.
I'm not a big fan of the public's privacy being scuttled. But that doesn't necessarily mean I don't favor and support Obama to a much greater extent based on any number of other things. Foreign policy, the color of his skin, the advancement of other personal freedoms during his time in office, the direction of the stock market, my personal pocketbook, etc., etc. People have lots of reasons to judge elected officials. Nobody weighs them the same.
Presidents have their thumbs in lots of pies, and if you're going to outright condemn one because something he's done was done in order to screw over Joe Public, you're going to have to make sure you've condemned every president we've ever had.
I feel Snowden was justified, on balance, in doing what he did, though I wish he'd done it a bit more carefully/thoughtfully. And I feel Obama, on balance, is probably a 6 or 7 out of 10 president. I don't like everything about either guy, but I support both.
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Good lord, say what you like, and I fully respect your opinion, but please leave Fox out of it. This is my view.
Yes, there are probably other examples with other presidents. Maybe the importance of the issue matters. I don't know how someone could oppose the Iraq War and support Bush. I don't know how someone could support Clinton's impeachment because of his alleged behavior and support Clinton.
Yes, to me a president who would jail a man who I thought acted "heroically" would not be someone I could support. I guess that's just me, I know (thankfully) there are a trillion views in the universe, which is great. It's just my view I guess.
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Jayrok
Footballguy
He tried to talk with people in his chain but wasn't satisfied with progress, so he lies about returning to the states so he can instead travel illegally to China and release the documents to the Chinese government? That's no hero.
What about China's surveillance systems? Were they disclosed to the Chinese people too? The guy is no hero. I agree with him that US citizens have a right to know the gov't has such systems if privacy rights are infringed upon.
But you don't use your government clearance to betray its trust by illegally obtaining and distributing classified documents to foreign governments who aren't even our allies. His heart may have been right but he commited crimes and whether he likes it or not he should face those charges. Instead he fled to foreign assylum.
If his work leads to the uncovering of government misdoings and/or corruption, then that is great. But that doesn't change the fact that he committed crimes. If he faces trial and is punished or exonerated it should have no impact on the evolution of the case or evidence on which he has shed light. He opened some type of pandora's box, let the chips fall where they may... but face the music for the crimes you committed and stop running from them.
The Commish
Footballguy
I think he did just fine given the options he had. Let's face it. It's not like our government has an anonymous "suggestion box" or "whistle blower box" that he could utilize. Folks don't like self examination. If he'd been a citizen of another country exposing his government's worldly wrongdoings, I suspect we'd welcome him with open arms.
Jayrok
Footballguy
I have a differing opinion maybe because I've worked in environments where I've needed a TS clearance (SCI in some cases) for the past 25 years. He had concerns when he discovered the projects that were going on. He voiced those concerns. His job is not to take matters into his own hands and release that information. If he couldnt' get past it he could have resigned from his position and then approached the media with his concerns. But he would have no longer been in a position to do something that could potentially damage national security. And that is why documents and projects are classified to begin with.
Bottom line for me is that it was not his call to do what he did. I don't think I would call him a traitor, but he is certainly no hero IMO.
The Commish
Footballguy
I don't believe this for a second, but I'm about the most pessimistic person in the US when it comes to our gov't so I could be wrong.
Jayrok
Footballguy
Jayrok
Footballguy
I'm not saying he would be successful and things would turn out as we'd like, but it would be the right thing to do. Stealing classified documents was not the right thing to do.
Jeff Vader
Footballguy
This. It's the Obama Administration's fault for him running to Hong Kong and Russia. The incessant and unrelenting way they've hounded whistleblowers (before Snowden) forced his hand. No administration has been so unforgiving and draconian in its treatment of people trying to tell the truth.
McGarnicle
Footballguy
Had some good ideas, but went a little too far.
D in the D
Footballguy
Marge Schott said pretty much this exact same thing about Adolf Hitler. For whatever that's worth.
Jeff Vader
Footballguy
There's Chinese citizens doing this, though not with a lot of success considering how the government controls all media outlets (including the internet) over there. All of them end up tortured in jail. Even the writers up for the effing Nobel Prize. It's a testament to America that our media is at least somewhat "free" to cover Snowden despite how much our government wishes it wouldn't (and in some cases, even tries to prevent it). But the parallels between the Chinese government's need for control and the Obama Administration's are disturbing. Which is exactly why we needed someone like Snowden, and more of him.
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Yep. Many here seem to be engaging in both speculation about his actual actions and wishful thinking about the consequences of a different path.
The Commish
Footballguy
Our government is a corrupt organization. Period. "Right" and "Wrong" went away a long time ago. I understand your point from a philosophical approach, but given the reality/state of our government, it wasn't going to work. I think it took major balls for him to do what he did. Is he a hero? Probably not. He's not a traitor either. This country has been betraying it's citizens for decades. Him shining a light on that the only way he could isn't the act of a traitor IMO.
ETA: I have to take anything the gov't claims he's done with a grain of salt. Reality is, we probably will never know the actual truth about what he's done.
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McGarnicle
Footballguy
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Traitor.
George Washington was a traitor though. So, it really depends on who writes the history book.....
George Washington was a traitor though. So, it really depends on who writes the history book.....
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D in the D
Footballguy
Ditka Butkus
Footballguy
I don't know but I've always considered somebody who gives up their country's secrets a traitor. Plus when you look at him he looks like the old high school know-it-all dweeb that you would like to punch in the face.
timschochet
Footballguy
Very similar to Daniel Ellsberg. Historical analogies are normally pretty flawed, but this one is very close. Almost all of the questions involving Snowden's heroism or treachery were brought up in the Ellsberg case for the exact same reasons.
Ive gone back and forth on this. I now believe that if Snowden is caught he should be prosecuted for revealing state secrets. That is against the law and it HAS to be against the law if our society is to survive. But that being said, it appears that his revelations will turn out to our ultimate benefit. Therefore it's hard for me to regard him as a traitor.
Ive gone back and forth on this. I now believe that if Snowden is caught he should be prosecuted for revealing state secrets. That is against the law and it HAS to be against the law if our society is to survive. But that being said, it appears that his revelations will turn out to our ultimate benefit. Therefore it's hard for me to regard him as a traitor.
Black Box
Footballguy
Was just going to post something similar.
Sure, he's a traitor in the legal sense of the term, but I am glad he did what he did from a civil liberties perspective.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Sorry, if he's a "hero" he shouldn't be prosecuted.timschochet said:
timschochet
Footballguy
I didn't exactly say he was a hero. And even so, heroes who break the law should be prosecuted. Personally I would pardon the guy, but only after he received a conviction.
Jeff Vader
Footballguy
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
Pretty much where I'm at.joffer said:
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
If any of the information he has is given to a foreign government, he should be put to death for treason.
Until this is aspect has been defined, I'm not sure how people can make a proper judgement. Leaking program information and stealing it are two very different things, what he may do to U.S. national security and international interests could be damaging for decades and irreversible. People seem to think the only info he has is on the U.S internal surveillance program, which is most certainly not the case. How can you call him a hero for having documents that may very well destroy your country?
Until this is aspect has been defined, I'm not sure how people can make a proper judgement. Leaking program information and stealing it are two very different things, what he may do to U.S. national security and international interests could be damaging for decades and irreversible. People seem to think the only info he has is on the U.S internal surveillance program, which is most certainly not the case. How can you call him a hero for having documents that may very well destroy your country?
Not sure how you do one without the other given that these programs are global and built into the backbone of communications networks.
Fennis
Footballguy
If some IT guy has documents that destroys the country we have far bigger problems than Snowden.
rockaction
Footballguy
When Wyden, Udall, and Rand are all but telling us we're being monitored in ways we can't even conceive of, but are bound by secrecy, I'm not sure it's anything but hero, despite some excellent points to the contrary about the sensitivity of our intelligence.
It's a balancing test for me.
Also, I don't see how the executive -- which condones and wants to expand the NSA's programs -- would ever grant this guy a pardon. It'd be like giving a guy who stole from your apple orchard some free apples.
It's a balancing test for me.
Also, I don't see how the executive -- which condones and wants to expand the NSA's programs -- would ever grant this guy a pardon. It'd be like giving a guy who stole from your apple orchard some free apples.
There are no heroes in situations without consequence.
Here, you can make a case that he's a hero to the people of the United States. Or you can make a case that he's a hero to the people of the world. You don't have to make or believe that case, but you can.
At the same time, he clearly acted against the interests of the U.S. Gov't.
Those premises are only incompatible if you believe the U.S. Gov't is infallible. I certainly don't. Do you?
I happen to think the U.S. is a pretty great place to live. I also think that any time an organization has as much power as the U.S. Gov't does, some things are bound to become corrupt and unethical. Yet if that Gov't doesn't maintain the power to protect itself with laws, where are we? I think we need those laws to maintain any semblance of order.
So where is the balance? I think here, one guy acted against a particular facet of the government he (and many others) saw as unethical. I applaud him for that, if not for his exact methodology. And I do think the U.S. has the right to prosecute him, because overall, I think the U.S. handles stuff like governance and prosecution well. But I hope he gets away with it, and I think a life in exile is an appropriately heroic-but-difficult price to pay for taking on such a bureaucratic juggernaut head on.
You seem to be a black-or-white guy. I'm a shades of grey guy, I guess.
Short Corner
Footballguy
The Government dictated how he should have handled it when the falsely indicted Drake, forging documents to try and turn him in the process.Jayrok said:
Joe Summer
Footballguy
How about an option for "neither"? I mean, I'm glad that he exposed a shady element of the U.S. government, but I don't consider him a hero for doing it.
TheAristocrat
Footballguy
More hero than traitor but the apathetic American public can only be interested for
Hey, is The Bachelor on tonight?
Hey, is The Bachelor on tonight?
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