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Egypt blowing up (again) (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter pittstownkiller
- Start date
And his supporters come out swinging.
http://news.msn.com/world/egypt-clashes-kill-10-in-islamist-pushback?ocid=ansnews1130 dead, hundreds hurt in Egypt unrestCAIRO — Medical officials say at least 12 people have been killed in clashes between supporters and opponents of the ousted president in the Mediterranean coastal city of Alexandria, bringing nationwide toll to 30.
Emergency services official Amr Salama says the 12 died when hundreds of Islamists descended on a rally by opponents of ousted President Mohammed Morsi in the city, opening fire with guns.
He says clashes erupted, and police joined on the side of the Morsi opponents.
Salama says he saw one man die when he went to the roof of a building, raised an Egyptian flag and shouted insults against Morsi. Morsi backers went to the roof and stabbed him and threw him off the building.
The state news agency MENA also confirmed 12 dead in the city.
The violence comes in the wake of Egyptian troops firing on mostly Islamist protesters marching on an opposition headquarters Friday, where at least one was killed as the crowd demanded restoration of ousted President Mohammed Morsi.
Mohammed Badie, the Muslim Brotherhood's general guide, led the crowd of tens of thousands in a chant of "Free revolutionaries, we will continue the path." Badie had been taken into custody by security forces soon after the military ousted Morsi, who also belongs to the Brotherhood, but was released earlier in the day.
In a speech to the pro-Morsi crowd, Badie vowed an end to "military rule," saying that Morsi is the only president of Egypt.
The shooting earlier occurred when hundreds of Morsi supporters marched on the Republican Guard building, where the former president was staying at the time of his ouster before he was taken into military custody in an unknown location. The crowd approached a barbed-wire barrier where troops were standing guard around the building.
When one supporter hung a Morsi sign on the barrier, the troops tore it down and told the crowd to stay back. A protester hung a second sign, and the soldiers opened fire on the crowd, an Associated Press photographer at the scene said. Several protesters fell bloodied to the ground.
At least one had a gaping, bleeding exit wound in the back of his head. Fellow protesters carried the body into a nearby building and covered his head with a blanket, declaring him dead, according to AP Television News footage.
Protesters pelted the line of troops with stones, and the soldiers responded with volleys of tear gas, but the clashes appeared for the moment to ease with midafternoon prayers.
The shooting risks escalating Egypt's division, with supporters of Morsi — largely Islamists — rejecting the army's ousting of the country's first freely elected president Wednesday night and installation of a new civilian administration. The protester casualties are likely to further fuel calls by some in the Islamist movement for violent retaliation.
The first major Islamic militant attack came before dawn Friday in the tumultuous Sinai Peninsula, killing at least one soldier. Masked assailants launched a coordinated attack with rockets, rocket-propelled grenades and anti-aircraft guns on the airport in el-Arish, the provincial capital of northern Sinai, as well as a security forces camp in Rafah on the border with Gaza and five other military and police posts, sparking nearly four hours of clashes.
The Brotherhood called for Friday's protests, which took place at several sites around the capital and in other cities. Brotherhood officials emphasized strongly to their followers that their rallies should be peaceful.
A crowd of tens of thousands of Morsi supporters filled much of a broad boulevard outside a Cairo mosque several blocks away from the Republican Guard headquarters, vowing to remain in place until Morsi is restored. The protesters railed against what they called the return of the regime of autocrat Hosni Mubarak, ousted in early 2011.
"The old regime has come back ... worse than before," said Ismail Abdel-Mohsen, an 18-year old student among the crowds outside the Rabia al-Adawiya Mosque. He dismissed the new interim head of state sworn in a day earlier, senior judge Adly Mansour, as "the military puppet."
The crowd began to march on the headquarters of the Republican Guard, many chanting, "After sunset, President Morsi will be back in the palace."
The military forced out Morsi on Wednesday after millions of Egyptians turned out in four days of protests demanding his removal and saying he had squandered his electoral mandate by putting power in the hands of his own Muslim Brotherhood and other, harder-line Islamists. In the 48 hours since, the military has moved against the Brotherhood's senior leadership, putting Morsi under detention and arresting the group's supreme leader and a string of other figures.
But there are serious fears that more extremist groups who gained considerable influence during Morsi's year in office will lash out with a campaign of violence.
Islamic militants hold a powerful sway in the lawless and chaotic northern Sinai. They are heavily armed with weapons smuggled from Libya and have links with militants in the neighboring Gaza Strip, run by Hamas. After the attack, Egypt indefinitely closed its border crossing into Gaza, sending 200 Palestinians back into the territory, said Gen. Sami Metwali, director of Rafah passage.
Morsi supporters say the military has wrecked Egypt's democracy by carrying out a coup against an elected leader. They accuse Mubarak loyalists and liberal and secular opposition parties of turning to the army for help because they lost at the polls to Islamists. Many Morsi supporters have also seen it as a conspiracy against Islam.
30 dead, hundreds hurt in Egypt unrest
AP Photo: Khalil Hamra
People carry the body of a man shot by Egyptian troops in Cairo on July 5.
20 min ago By Maggie Michael and Tony G. Gabriel of Associated PressSHARE
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CAIRO — Medical officials say at least 12 people have been killed in clashes between supporters and opponents of the ousted president in the Mediterranean coastal city of Alexandria, bringing nationwide toll to 30.
Emergency services official Amr Salama says the 12 died when hundreds of Islamists descended on a rally by opponents of ousted President Mohammed Morsi in the city, opening fire with guns.
He says clashes erupted, and police joined on the side of the Morsi opponents.
Salama says he saw one man die when he went to the roof of a building, raised an Egyptian flag and shouted insults against Morsi. Morsi backers went to the roof and stabbed him and threw him off the building.
The state news agency MENA also confirmed 12 dead in the city.
The violence comes in the wake of Egyptian troops firing on mostly Islamist protesters marching on an opposition headquarters Friday, where at least one was killed as the crowd demanded restoration of ousted President Mohammed Morsi.
Mohammed Badie, the Muslim Brotherhood's general guide, led the crowd of tens of thousands in a chant of "Free revolutionaries, we will continue the path." Badie had been taken into custody by security forces soon after the military ousted Morsi, who also belongs to the Brotherhood, but was released earlier in the day.
In a speech to the pro-Morsi crowd, Badie vowed an end to "military rule," saying that Morsi is the only president of Egypt.
Tran unknown location. The crowd approached a barbed-wire barrier where troops were standing guard around the building. Related: Analysis: Egypt risks Islamist splits, violence after Morsi fall
Gallery: Turmoil in Egypt after Morsi's forced removal
When one supporter hung a Morsi sign on the barrier, the troops tore it down and told the crowd to stay back. A protester hung a second sign, and the soldiers opened fire on the crowd, an Associated Press photographer at the scene said. Several protesters fell bloodied to the ground.
At least one had a gaping, bleeding exit wound in the back of his head. Fellow protesters carried the body into a nearby building and covered his head with a blanket, declaring him dead, according to AP Television News footage.
Protesters pelted the line of troops with stones, and the soldiers responded with volleys of tear gas, but the clashes appeared for the moment to ease with midafternoon prayers.
The shooting risks escalating Egypt's division, with supporters of Morsi — largely Islamists — rejecting the army's ousting of the country's first freely elected president Wednesday night and installation of a new civilian administration. The protester casualties are likely to further fuel calls by some in the Islamist movement for violent retaliation.
The first major Islamic militant attack came before dawn Friday in the tumultuous Sinai Peninsula, killing at least one soldier. Masked assailants launched a coordinated attack with rockets, rocket-propelled grenades and anti-aircraft guns on the airport in el-Arish, the provincial capital of northern Sinai, as well as a security forces camp in Rafah on the border with Gaza and five other military and police posts, sparking nearly four hours of clashes.
AP Photo: Virginie Nguyen Hoanghttp://news.msn.com/world/turmoil-in-egypt-after-morsis-forced-removal
Click photo to view image gallery
The Brotherhood called for Friday's protests, which took place at several sites around the capital and in other cities. Brotherhood officials emphasized strongly to their followers that their rallies should be peaceful.
A crowd of tens of thousands of Morsi supporters filled much of a broad boulevard outside a Cairo mosque several blocks away from the Republican Guard headquarters, vowing to remain in place until Morsi is restored. The protesters railed against what they called the return of the regime of autocrat Hosni Mubarak, ousted in early 2011.
"The old regime has come back ... worse than before," said Ismail Abdel-Mohsen, an 18-year old student among the crowds outside the Rabia al-Adawiya Mosque. He dismissed the new interim head of state sworn in a day earlier, senior judge Adly Mansour, as "the military puppet."
The crowd began to march on the headquarters of the Republican Guard, many chanting, "After sunset, President Morsi will be back in the palace."
Related: Morsi's ouster: Was it a coup or not?
The military forced out Morsi on Wednesday after millions of Egyptians turned out in four days of protests demanding his removal and saying he had squandered his electoral mandate by putting power in the hands of his own Muslim Brotherhood and other, harder-line Islamists. In the 48 hours since, the military has moved against the Brotherhood's senior leadership, putting Morsi under detention and arresting the group's supreme leader and a string of other figures.
But there are serious fears that more extremist groups who gained considerable influence during Morsi's year in office will lash out with a campaign of violence.
AP Photo: Hatem Moussa
Islamic militants hold a powerful sway in the lawless and chaotic northern Sinai. They are heavily armed with weapons smuggled from Libya and have links with militants in the neighboring Gaza Strip, run by Hamas. After the attack, Egypt indefinitely closed its border crossing into Gaza, sending 200 Palestinians back into the territory, said Gen. Sami Metwali, director of Rafah passage.
Morsi supporters say the military has wrecked Egypt's democracy by carrying out a coup against an elected leader. They accuse Mubarak loyalists and liberal and secular opposition parties of turning to the army for help because they lost at the polls to Islamists. Many Morsi supporters have also seen it as a conspiracy against Islam.
Related: US touts democracy as Egyptian military takes over
Many protesters on Friday held copies of the Quran in the air, and much of the crowd had the long beards of ultraconservative men or the encompassing black robes and veils worn by women, leaving only the eyes visible. One protester shouted that the sheik of Al-Azhar — Egypt's top Muslim cleric, who backed the military's move — was "an agent of the Christians" — reflecting a sentiment that the Christian minority was behind Morsi's ouster.
The protesters set up "self-defense" teams, with men staffing checkpoints touting sticks and homemade body shields. There was no significant presence of military forces near the protests.
The night before, the military spokesman issued a statement urging all protesters to remain peaceful. In a message to Morsi's opponents, Col. Ahmed Mohammed Ali warned against "gloating," vengeance or attacks on Brotherhood offices, saying there must not be an "endless cycle of revenge."
The military has a "strong will to ensure national reconciliation, constructive justice and tolerance," he wrote in an official Facebook posting. He said the army and security forces will not take "any exceptional or arbitrary measures" against any political group.
But the Brotherhood has been furious over the arrests of its top leaders, as well as the closure of its TV station Misr25, its newspaper and three other Islamist television stations. It called the moves a return to Egypt's "dark, repressive, dictatorial and corrupt ages."
"We refuse to participate in any activities with the usurping authorities," the Brotherhood said in a statement, read Thursday by senior cleric Abdel-Rahman el-Barr to the crowd outside the Rabia al-Adawiya Mosque.
Morsi has been under detention in an unknown location since Wednesday night, and at least a dozen of his top aides and advisers have been under what is described as "house arrest," though their locations are also unknown.
Besides the Brotherhood's top leader, General Guide Mohammed Badie, security officials have also arrested his predecessor, Mahdi Akef, and one of his two deputies, Rashad Bayoumi, as well as Saad el-Katatni, head of the Brotherhood's Freedom and Justice Party, and ultraconservative Salafi figure Hazem Abu Ismail, who has a considerable street following.
Authorities have also issued a wanted list for more than 200 Brotherhood members and leaders of other Islamist groups. Among them is Khairat el-Shater, another deputy of the general guide who is widely considered the most powerful figure in the Brotherhood.
The arrest of Badie was a dramatic step, since even Mubarak and his predecessors had been reluctant to move against the group's top leader. The ranks of Brotherhood members across the country swear a strict oath of unquestioning allegiance to the general guide, vowing to "hear and obey." It has been decades since a Brotherhood general guide was put in a prison.
Badie and el-Shater were widely believed by the opposition to be the real power in Egypt during Morsi's term.
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
Taking down the Muslim Brotherhood is a good thing, right?
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
I thought the majority of Egyptians wanted something else? Isn't that why the military stepped in?
Sure, the military overthrows the elected government because it's what the majority of the people want. They never have their own interests in mind,
T Bell
Footballguy
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Oof. Giving Morsi legitimacy is blowing up in our faces.
The biggest question, IMO, is just how much of the country do the protesters that got Morsi ousted actually represent and was Morsi's election in the first place actually legitimate?
The biggest question, IMO, is just how much of the country do the protesters that got Morsi ousted actually represent and was Morsi's election in the first place actually legitimate?
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cstu
Footballguy
I've seen nothing to suggest that Morsi's victory was illegitimate so we were right to recognize his legitimacy. I heard from a number of people who voted for Morsi that they didn't expect him to try to make Egypt into a theocracy. Naive/stupid perhaps but it seems like some Morsi supporters didn't know what they were getting into when they voted for him. If only 2% of Morsi voters had voted differently then he wouldn't have been elected.
timschochet
Footballguy
GREAT posting Christo. That should be required reading for every US President, and for every member of our State Department.
Ever since Woodrow Wilson, our solution to every international crisis has been to call for democracy. Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, and Barack Obama are all equally guilty of this as are almost all of our leaders before them. The results have been disastrous. Democracy, as an ideal by itself, is morally neutral. Without an educated society, sound economic conditions, and most of all a fundamental respect for the rule of law and individual rights, it will inevitably lead to bad things.
Ever since Woodrow Wilson, our solution to every international crisis has been to call for democracy. Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, and Barack Obama are all equally guilty of this as are almost all of our leaders before them. The results have been disastrous. Democracy, as an ideal by itself, is morally neutral. Without an educated society, sound economic conditions, and most of all a fundamental respect for the rule of law and individual rights, it will inevitably lead to bad things.
cstu
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Actually, the phrase "They don't want democracy" is a logical fallacy. Whatever "they" want, that's democracy.
cstu
Footballguy
How often has the U.S. actually supported democracy rather than dictators? We talk a good game about democracy but our actions favor dictatorships.
Fennis
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
The article Christo posted addresses this question better than I can. I would only add that during the Cold War, we had different priorities over the question of democracy.
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cstu
Footballguy
I read the article but it was blathering about 'honor and dignity' prevailing over 'Western standards of democracy'. In her mind it's fine for countries to come up with any sort of 'democracy' they want even if it alienates/disinfranchises minorities and then goes on to call it a 'just society':
Funny thing is that I don't see her running off from her cushy life in 'Western standard of democracy' England to live in one of these 'honor and dignity' democracies.
timschochet
Footballguy
First off, when you quote her, it's important to concentrate on the phrase "rule of law"- that is what prevents the mistreatment of minorities which you are concerned about. Certainly democracy doesn't prevent it, as Iran is only the latest of many historical examples.Second, she's not necessarily being a hypocrite- the type of society she is seeking has yet to arise in the Muslim world, unfortunately. That doesn't mean it's not achievable, and a better goal to strive for than pure democracy.
timschochet
Footballguy
I see democracy as an endgame, rather than as the means to achieve liberty, which is how almost all of our Presidents, and our State Department, perceive it.
In order for democracy to be a good thing, you have to have the following FIRST, in no particular order:
A sound economy, in which most people have work and there is no general fear of starvation.
An educated society, in which the majority are reasonably literate.
A belief among the majority of the people in certain fundamental libertarian values: the rule of law, freedom of expression, individual liberties.
Only when these elements already exist can democracy achieve generally positive results. Without them, the results are going to be awful.
In order for democracy to be a good thing, you have to have the following FIRST, in no particular order:
A sound economy, in which most people have work and there is no general fear of starvation.
An educated society, in which the majority are reasonably literate.
A belief among the majority of the people in certain fundamental libertarian values: the rule of law, freedom of expression, individual liberties.
Only when these elements already exist can democracy achieve generally positive results. Without them, the results are going to be awful.
Gawain
Footballguy
cstu
Footballguy
Nazi Germany had a rule of law.
I disagree with her entire premise that are equally good types of democracies. If a democracy doesn't protect minorities it's not truly a democracy.
cstu
Footballguy
Wherever she lives she's a real piece of work:
I guess after this all blew over she got her job back.
cstu, I don't understand why you think any of your objections to or attempts to marginalize what she's written have anything to do with the point I was making when I posted her article. Whether or not you agree with what she's saying, the fact of the matter is that a lot of people in the ME believe what she does. They want us out. They want Israel gone. They want to determine for themselves what their countries look like.
cstu
Footballguy
I agree with the general principle that we should allow countries to determine their own destiny but we aren't in Egypt - we have no military bases there.
They are also welcome to refuse the aid we send them. However, as long as they keep accepting money from us it will come with some strings attached. Now that they are a democracy they can vote whether to accept our money, it's up to them.
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
And they may SAY they don't want aid from the US, but you can guarantee that they will get it from somewhere else (Iran, Russia, whatever) if not from us - with strings attached.
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pittstownkiller
Footballguy
Yeah but she lives on the West Side of Beirut.
Offa
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Ever read War and Peace, or Les Miserables? For years after Napoleon became an emperor, his supporters associated him with democracy because he had emerged from the Revolution. Same for the supporters of Fidel Castro and Robert Mugabe. This is a typical response.
T Bell
Footballguy
I'm just impressed they didn't do the "looser" typo which is so prevalent on the innerwebs.
Well done soon-to-be-dead protestors!
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Yea, that's a good article. How similar are the arrests morsi made in relation to speaking against the president to John Adams and the Alien and Sedition Acts?
Fennis
Footballguy
caught this on reddit. amazing 12 year old Egyptian kid.
http://freearabs.com/index.php/politics/73-video-gallery/400-jb-span-egypt-jb-span-the-next-president
http://freearabs.com/index.php/politics/73-video-gallery/400-jb-span-egypt-jb-span-the-next-president
glumpy
breeze
That's Awesome! See the guy just behind him tripping on it? I wasn't quite trusting the translation until that.
wazoo11
Footballguy
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
These are members/sympathizers of the Muslim Brotherhood, right?wazoo11 said:
