Election Deniers Are Bad, Right? (1 Viewer)

[ChicoCat]

Trump spent like a drunk sailor his entire presidency.

what ?
his administration saw spending at about what Obama did for his last 6 years ..... 2020 spiked bigly, and Biden continued that in 2021 and 2022

NOT entire Presidency. I swear ya'll could google this stuff easy

END OF FISCAL YEAR	DEBT (IN BILLIONS, ROUNDED)	DEBT-TO-GDP RATIO	MAJOR EVENTS BY PRESIDENTIAL TERM
1929	$17	16%	Market crash
1930	$16	17%	Smoot-Hawley reduced trade
1931	$17	22%	Dust Bowl drought raged
1932	$20	34%	Hoover raised taxes
1933	$23	40%	New Deal increased GDP and debt
1934	$27	40%
1935	$29	39%	Social Security
1936	$34	40%	Tax hikes renewed depression
1937	$36	39%	Third New Deal
1938	$37	42%	Dust Bowl ended
1939	$40	51%	Depression ended
1940	$43	49%	FDR increased spending and raised taxes
1941	$49	44%	U.S. entered WWII
1942	$72	48%	Defense tripled
1943	$137	70%
1944	$201	91%	Bretton Woods
1945	$259	114%	WWII ended
1946	$269	119%	Truman's 1st term budgets and recession
1947	$258	103%	Cold War
1948	$252	92%	Recession
1949	$253	93%	Recession
1950	$257	86%	Korean War boosted growth and debt
1951	$255	74%
1952	$259	71%
1953	$266	68%	Recession when war ended
1954	$271	69%	Eisenhower's budgets and Recession
1955	$274	64%
1956	$273	61%
1957	$271	57%	Recession
1958	$276	58%	Eisenhower's 2nd term and recession
1959	$285	55%	Fed raised rates
1960	$286	54%	Recession
1961	$289	52%	Bay of Pigs
1962	$298	50%	JFK budgets and Cuban missile crisis
1963	$306	48%	U.S. aids Vietnam, JFK killed
1964	$312	46%	LBJ's budgets and war on poverty
1965	$317	43%	U.S. entered Vietnam War
1966	$320	40%
1967	$326	40%
1968	$348	39%
1969	$354	36%	Nixon took office
1970	$371	35%	Recession
1971	$398	35%	Wage-price controls
1972	$427	34%	Stagflation
1973	$458	33%	Nixon ended gold standard and OPEC oil embargo
1974	$475	31%	Watergate and budget process created
1975	$533	32%	Vietnam War ended
1976	$620	33%	Stagflation
1977	$699	34%	Stagflation
1978	$772	33%	Carter budgets and recession
1979	$827	32%
1980	$908	32%	Volcker raised fed rate to 20%
1981	$998	31%	Reagan tax cut
1982	$1,142	34%	Reagan increased spending
1983	$1,377	37%	Jobless rate 10.8%
1984	$1,572	38%	Increased defense spending
1985	$1,823	41%
1986	$2,125	46%	Reagan lowered taxes
1987	$2,350	48%	Market crash
1988	$2,602	50%	Fed raised rates
1989	$2,857	51%	S&L Crisis
1990	$3,233	54%	First Iraq War
1991	$3,665	58%	Recession
1992	$4,065	61%
1993	$4,411	63%	Omnibus Budget Act
1994	$4,693	64%	Clinton budgets
1995	$4,974	64%
1996	$5,225	64%	Welfare reform
1997	$5,413	63%
1998	$5,526	60%	LTCM crisis and recession
1999	$5,656	58%	Glass-Steagall repealed
2000	$5,674	55%	Budget surplus
2001	$5,807	55%	9/11 attacks and EGTRRA
2002	$6,228	57%	War on Terror
2003	$6,783	59%	JGTRRA and Iraq War
2004	$7,379	60%	Iraq War
2005	$7,933	61%	Bankruptcy Act and Hurricane Katrina.
2006	$8,507	61%	Bernanke chaired Fed
2007	$9,008	62%	Bank crisis
2008	$10,025	68%	Bank bailout and QE
2009	$11,910	82%	Bailout cost $250B ARRA added $242B
2010	$13,562	90%	ARRA added $400B, payroll tax holiday ended, Obama Tax cuts, ACA, Simpson-Bowles
2011	$14,790	95%	Debt crisis, recession and tax cuts reduced revenue
2012	$16,066	99%	Fiscal cliff
2013	$16,738	99%	Sequester, government shutdown
2014	$17,824	101%	QE ended, debt ceiling crisis
2015	$18,151	100%	Oil prices fell
2016	$19,573	105%	Brexit
2017	$20,245	104%	Congress raised the debt ceiling
2018	$21,516	105%	Trump tax cuts
2019	$22,719	107%	Trade wars
2020	$27,748	129%	COVID-19 and 2020 recession
2021	$29,617	124%	COVID-19 and American Rescue Plan Act
2022	$30,824	123%	Inflation Reduction Act and student loan forgiveness

​

Is the bolded a viable defense for a Conservative/Republican candidate? Trump SHOULDN'T have spent in line with Obama....it should have been less.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

This seems like good reason to eliminate the electoral college.

so only 16 states really matter ?

no thank you but, I wouldn't mind maybe seeing a fair share of electorals ... .like if Biden won 60% and Trump 40% in a state with 100 EC's .... Biden gets 60, Trump gets 40 .... it would better reflect the population maybe ?

but if i were Democrat I'd be all about abolishing EC for sure !

This fixation on states is bizarre. The focus should be on voters — and today, not all voters matter equally, which is just cray-cray. We’ve actually embedded voter discrimination into the Constitution via the EC. Unreal.

republic denial

I live in a deep blue state. My vote is irrelevant. The solution is what Maine has implemented. Distribute EC votes based on vote %.

I’d be fine with that. I also live in a deep blue state where my vote doesn’t matter.

Rank choice voting needs to happen too.

 

[tymarsas]

In general I like my politics balanced, I think the founders had the right thinking with the EC to help support that. If you don’t see the US as a Union of states and just one big homogenous pool I could see why you wouldn’t like the EC.

But imo we need more balance not less, especially now.

You're assuming it is balanced right now. If you gave everyone's vote equal weight then the middle would readjust to the actual middle. Politicians would also have more incentive to govern for the middle rather than the extremes.

 

[djmich]

This seems like good reason to eliminate the electoral college.

so only 16 states really matter ?

no thank you but, I wouldn't mind maybe seeing a fair share of electorals ... .like if Biden won 60% and Trump 40% in a state with 100 EC's .... Biden gets 60, Trump gets 40 .... it would better reflect the population maybe ?

but if i were Democrat I'd be all about abolishing EC for sure !

This fixation on states is bizarre. The focus should be on voters — and today, not all voters matter equally, which is just cray-cray. We’ve actually embedded voter discrimination into the Constitution via the EC. Unreal.

republic denial

I live in a deep blue state. My vote is irrelevant. The solution is what Maine has implemented. Distribute EC votes based on vote %.

I’d be fine with that. I also live in a deep blue state where my vote doesn’t matter.

Rank choice voting needs to happen too.

What do you mean your vote doesn’t matter? If the standard is your individual vote needs to swing a state to matter…nobody’s does

 

[parasaurolophus]

This seems like good reason to eliminate the electoral college.

so only 16 states really matter ?

no thank you but, I wouldn't mind maybe seeing a fair share of electorals ... .like if Biden won 60% and Trump 40% in a state with 100 EC's .... Biden gets 60, Trump gets 40 .... it would better reflect the population maybe ?

but if i were Democrat I'd be all about abolishing EC for sure !

This fixation on states is bizarre. The focus should be on voters — and today, not all voters matter equally, which is just cray-cray. We’ve actually embedded voter discrimination into the Constitution via the EC. Unreal.

republic denial

I live in a deep blue state. My vote is irrelevant. The solution is what Maine has implemented. Distribute EC votes based on vote %.

I’d be fine with that. I also live in a deep blue state where my vote doesn’t matter.

Rank choice voting needs to happen too

Distributing ec votes by % is just another way of having it be by popular vote.

 

[Philo Beddoe]

This seems like good reason to eliminate the electoral college.

so only 16 states really matter ?

no thank you but, I wouldn't mind maybe seeing a fair share of electorals ... .like if Biden won 60% and Trump 40% in a state with 100 EC's .... Biden gets 60, Trump gets 40 .... it would better reflect the population maybe ?

but if i were Democrat I'd be all about abolishing EC for sure !

This fixation on states is bizarre. The focus should be on voters — and today, not all voters matter equally, which is just cray-cray. We’ve actually embedded voter discrimination into the Constitution via the EC. Unreal.

republic denial

I live in a deep blue state. My vote is irrelevant. The solution is what Maine has implemented. Distribute EC votes based on vote %.

I’d be fine with that. I also live in a deep blue state where my vote doesn’t matter.

Rank choice voting needs to happen too

Distributing ec votes by % is just another way of having it be by popular vote.

I’m not sure I agree. Winner take all EC only puts 4-5 states in play in a given election year. A lot of people stay home because of this.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I’m not sure I agree. Winner take all EC only puts 4-5 states in play in a given election year. A lot of people stay home because of this.

If states just award ec votes by % of popular vote all you are doing is using a divisor in chief.

 

[The General]

Things were definitely handed off to Don much better than what Biden was handed (thanks Obama!) and there are different sets of challenges now than what happened in those 4 years, and will be different in next 4 and so on.

The question is who would you want running stuff. Donald is not an acceptable option and I have no faith things would be improved if he would have won again.

when I read these types of posts it makes me think a lot of people don't think the President and administration even matters

Why is that?

 

[Stealthycat]

Is the bolded a viable defense for a Conservative/Republican candidate? Trump SHOULDN'T have spent in line with Obama....it should have been less.

I agree - Trump failed there, and Biden has too (but Democrats here on this board will swear he's spending less)

 

[Stealthycat]

Why is that?

because everything is handed off or blamed on someone else

 

[Rubiobot]

Here's the bottom line...had Trump conceded the election and attended Biden's inauguration to signify the transfer of power from one administration to the next, we would not be having this discussion.

 

[roadkill1292]

I’m not sure I agree. Winner take all EC only puts 4-5 states in play in a given election year. A lot of people stay home because of this.

If states just award ec votes by % of popular vote all you are doing is using a divisor in chief.

There should be no argument about this, it's basic math. And also kinda awkward and ineffective when applied to states with only one or two congressional districts.

I was wrong earlier about Wisconsin, which actually had a far worse bill introduced. The proposed legislation would have split the electoral count by congressional district, not popular vote proportionately. A very nice deal for Wisconsin Republicans, who have the congressional districts rigged to give them six of eight seats in a fitty fitty state.

 

[Stealthycat]

anything to see here ?

Analysis: New York Voter Rolls Include 3.1M Registrants Without Records Proving Their Identity

Voter rolls in New York include about 3.1 million registrants without records that prove their identity, a new analysis reveals.

www.breitbart.com

 

[Rich Conway]

I’m not sure I agree. Winner take all EC only puts 4-5 states in play in a given election year. A lot of people stay home because of this.

If states just award ec votes by % of popular vote all you are doing is using a divisor in chief.

This isn't true because the EC votes aren't distributed equally by population. For example, Wyoming has 3 EC votes even though their population is much less than 3/538 of the total US population.

 

[BladeRunner]

I’m not sure I agree. Winner take all EC only puts 4-5 states in play in a given election year. A lot of people stay home because of this.

If states just award ec votes by % of popular vote all you are doing is using a divisor in chief.

There should be no argument about this, it's basic math. And also kinda awkward and ineffective when applied to states with only one or two congressional districts.

I was wrong earlier about Wisconsin, which actually had a far worse bill introduced. The proposed legislation would have split the electoral count by congressional district, not popular vote proportionately. A very nice deal for Wisconsin Republicans, who have the congressional districts rigged to give them six of eight seats in a fitty fitty state.

Just to be clear here, The WI Democrats were not complaining about it when they had the maps "rigged" in their favor.

So, the complaining that is happening now is not that the GOP has it "rigged" in their favor, it's that the DNC is upset it's not "rigged" in THEIR favor. For them, it's not about being fair either.

 

[rustycolts]

After listening to some folks here I started to reassess my thinking on the EC. So according to the 2010 census FL. has 9% of the population that is considered rural. Knowing that urban areas vote overwhelmingly Democratic FL should always be blue. We all know that's not true is it just an anomaly?

Still trying to figure what's fair popular vote or EC. Looking at this chart it would seem to me there would be no contest if Dems voted urban and Rs voted rural. We would always have basically a one party system. Still trying to figure it out.

Rural States Are Almost Entirely Ignored Under Current State-by-State System

Political influence in the Electoral College is based on whether the state is a closely divided battleground state. Under the current state-by-state winner-take all method of awarding electoral votes, presidential candidates ignore states where they are safely ahead or hopelessly behind...

www.nationalpopularvote.com

 

[tommyGunZ]

anything to see here ?

Analysis: New York Voter Rolls Include 3.1M Registrants Without Records Proving Their Identity

Voter rolls in New York include about 3.1 million registrants without records that prove their identity, a new analysis reveals.

www.breitbart.com

Does the article make any specific claims of fraud, or is this just the 10 millionth article posted by a right wing website that tries to scare people who don’t know how elections are run into believing our elections are ripe with fraud. (They aren’t).

 

[Stealthycat]

Does the article make any specific claims of fraud, or is this just the 10 millionth article posted by a right wing website that tries to scare people who don’t know how elections are run into believing our elections are ripe with fraud. (They aren’t).

the article is what it says it is - in this day and age where one side screams how unfair it is that you have to spend 10 minutes to vote and show you're a US citizen and the other side screams how unfair it is that we have such lax rules/restrictions/regulations in voting ..... I thought it tied in

New York Voter Rolls Include 3.1M Registrants Without Records Proving Their Identity​

 

[Stealthycat]

This isn't true because the EC votes aren't distributed equally by population. For example, Wyoming has 3 EC votes even though their population is much less than 3/538 of the total US population.

the Electoral College is in some ways like the Senate - its not equal-equal but rather weighted - giving states like WY meaning whereas if there wasn't an EC they would have very little relevance

 

[roadkill1292]

In about 43 states some numbers of people don't vote because they don't feel - with some evidence - that their votes matter. It's hard to criticize a Maryland Republican or a West Virginia Democrat from sitting out a presidential election.

Abolishing the EC changes that.

 

[the moops]

Just to be clear here, The WI Democrats were not complaining about it when they had the maps "rigged" in their favor.

So, the complaining that is happening now is not that the GOP has it "rigged" in their favor, it's that the DNC is upset it's not "rigged" in THEIR favor. For them, it's not about being fair either.

When were these maps rigged in democrats favor? Republicans have controlled the legislature since 1995

 

[Herb]

In about 43 states some numbers of people don't vote because they don't feel - with some evidence - that their votes matter. It's hard to criticize a Maryland Republican or a West Virginia Democrat from sitting out a presidential election.

Abolishing the EC changes that.

I had been on the fence on my feelings about getting rid of the EC. While I'm left leaning and want to see the current iteration of the GOP stomped into dust, I definitely don't want all of the heavily urban areas dictating election results. But now, through reading this forum, I'm convinced that the EC hurts both parties pretty equally.

Wyoming is an excellent example given above. It is absurd that WY citizen's votes count for more than a CA citizen, or a TX citizen. I've lived in Southern and Northern CA. There are a helluva lot of Republicans in that state. It's ridiculous to me that they are completely frozen out of the Electoral process. Their votes quite literally mean nothing in a POTUS election. Just like there are a ton of liberals in MS, AL, and KS that get zero say. It's antiquated, confusing, and most importantly, anti-democratic. Down with the EC!

And while we're at it, ranked choice voting in every state. Let's boot the extremists on boff sidezz back to the black holes of ignorance from which they came!

 

[Rich Conway]

After listening to some folks here I started to reassess my thinking on the EC. So according to the 2010 census FL. has 9% of the population that is considered rural. Knowing that urban areas vote overwhelmingly Democratic FL should always be blue. We all know that's not true is it just an anomaly?

Still trying to figure what's fair popular vote or EC. Looking at this chart it would seem to me there would be no contest if Dems voted urban and Rs voted rural. We would always have basically a one party system. Still trying to figure it out.

Rural States Are Almost Entirely Ignored Under Current State-by-State System

Political influence in the Electoral College is based on whether the state is a closely divided battleground state. Under the current state-by-state winner-take all method of awarding electoral votes, presidential candidates ignore states where they are safely ahead or hopelessly behind...

www.nationalpopularvote.com

I think using rural and urban as the only two categories misses the mark. Isn't a very significant portion of the population somewhere in between, in that suburban category?

 

[Godsbrother]

If you don’t see the US as a Union of states and just one big homogenous pool I could see why you wouldn’t like the EC.

Our politicians don't seem to view us a collection of states. If you live in a state with one R and one D senator take a peek and see how often they voted the same. The answer is likey to be almost never -- they almost always vote party lines regardless of what is good for their state.

After the 2020 election you had Republican leaders in one state attempting to decertify the results of certain states where their candidates lost because they didn't agree with their voting methods. which is strictly a state matter

In PA we have a guy that has never lived in the state running for senator, not because because he cares a lick about the commonwealth of PA, but because it was his best chance of becoming a politician at the federal level. It just as well could have been New Jersey or Ohio -- the state didn't matter.

This is not 1776 anymore -- the states have surrendered most of their power to the Feds which is made up of 2 parties.

 

[rustycolts]

After listening to some folks here I started to reassess my thinking on the EC. So according to the 2010 census FL. has 9% of the population that is considered rural. Knowing that urban areas vote overwhelmingly Democratic FL should always be blue. We all know that's not true is it just an anomaly?

Still trying to figure what's fair popular vote or EC. Looking at this chart it would seem to me there would be no contest if Dems voted urban and Rs voted rural. We would always have basically a one party system. Still trying to figure it out.

Rural States Are Almost Entirely Ignored Under Current State-by-State System

Political influence in the Electoral College is based on whether the state is a closely divided battleground state. Under the current state-by-state winner-take all method of awarding electoral votes, presidential candidates ignore states where they are safely ahead or hopelessly behind...

www.nationalpopularvote.com

I think using rural and urban as the only two categories misses the mark. Isn't a very significant portion of the population somewhere in between, in that suburban category?

Yea especially in Florida. So hard to figure. I wouldn't consider where I live either. Small town more like it.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

I’m not sure I agree. Winner take all EC only puts 4-5 states in play in a given election year. A lot of people stay home because of this.

If states just award ec votes by % of popular vote all you are doing is using a divisor in chief.

There should be no argument about this, it's basic math. And also kinda awkward and ineffective when applied to states with only one or two congressional districts.

I was wrong earlier about Wisconsin, which actually had a far worse bill introduced. The proposed legislation would have split the electoral count by congressional district, not popular vote proportionately. A very nice deal for Wisconsin Republicans, who have the congressional districts rigged to give them six of eight seats in a fitty fitty state.

Just to be clear here, The WI Democrats were not complaining about it when they had the maps "rigged" in their favor.

So, the complaining that is happening now is not that the GOP has it "rigged" in their favor, it's that the DNC is upset it's not "rigged" in THEIR favor. For them, it's not about being fair either.

I agree with this 100%. Both sides like to rig the system. The thing is, I don’t want ANYONE to rig it. Or even to be able to.

 

[Stealthycat]

In about 43 states some numbers of people don't vote because they don't feel - with some evidence - that their votes matter. It's hard to criticize a Maryland Republican or a West Virginia Democrat from sitting out a presidential election.

Abolishing the EC changes that.

I'd never vote if the electoral college went away I don't think. the cities/big population area's would rule everything

 

[Dickies]

In about 43 states some numbers of people don't vote because they don't feel - with some evidence - that their votes matter. It's hard to criticize a Maryland Republican or a West Virginia Democrat from sitting out a presidential election.

Abolishing the EC changes that.

I'd never vote if the electoral college went away

I hadn’t considered this into my calculus, but I’ll add it as another reason we should abolish the EC

 

[djmich]

If you don’t see the US as a Union of states and just one big homogenous pool I could see why you wouldn’t like the EC.

Our politicians don't seem to view us a collection of states. If you live in a state with one R and one D senator take a peek and see how often they voted the same. The answer is likey to be almost never -- they almost always vote party lines regardless of what is good for their state.

After the 2020 election you had Republican leaders in one state attempting to decertify the results of certain states where their candidates lost because they didn't agree with their voting methods. which is strictly a state matter

In PA we have a guy that has never lived in the state running for senator, not because because he cares a lick about the commonwealth of PA, but because it was his best chance of becoming a politician at the federal level. It just as well could have been New Jersey or Ohio -- the state didn't matter.

This is not 1776 anymore -- the states have surrendered most of their power to the Feds which is made up of 2 parties.

This is a fair point but I don't think its really a 1776 vs 2022 thing. With your Oz exmaple...Carpetbagging has been a thing for hundreds of years.

I'm not sure why we're comparing the purpose of the senate with the purpose of the EC though. They are two separate things and I don't really think President has even been about
"go get me goodies for my state", even in 1776. Senators as well, while there is some legislation that is about a specific state most of it is (and I'm assuming has been) about federal policy (military spending, taxes, healthcare)...in which case I'd expect parties to have different views, today and in 1776

 

[roadkill1292]

I’m not sure I agree. Winner take all EC only puts 4-5 states in play in a given election year. A lot of people stay home because of this.

If states just award ec votes by % of popular vote all you are doing is using a divisor in chief.

There should be no argument about this, it's basic math. And also kinda awkward and ineffective when applied to states with only one or two congressional districts.

I was wrong earlier about Wisconsin, which actually had a far worse bill introduced. The proposed legislation would have split the electoral count by congressional district, not popular vote proportionately. A very nice deal for Wisconsin Republicans, who have the congressional districts rigged to give them six of eight seats in a fitty fitty state.

Just to be clear here, The WI Democrats were not complaining about it when they had the maps "rigged" in their favor.

So, the complaining that is happening now is not that the GOP has it "rigged" in their favor, it's that the DNC is upset it's not "rigged" in THEIR favor. For them, it's not about being fair either.

I agree with this 100%. Both sides like to rig the system. The thing is, I don’t want ANYONE to rig it. Or even to be able to.

Everyone should want fair representation. I hold Democrats accountable in particular for not making progress on this issue because fair representation never has been and never will be something that Republicans care about.

 

[knowledge dropper]

Does the article make any specific claims of fraud, or is this just the 10 millionth article posted by a right wing website that tries to scare people who don’t know how elections are run into believing our elections are ripe with fraud. (They aren’t).

the article is what it says it is - in this day and age where one side screams how unfair it is that you have to spend 10 minutes to vote and show you're a US citizen and the other side screams how unfair it is that we have such lax rules/restrictions/regulations in voting ..... I thought it tied in

New York Voter Rolls Include 3.1M Registrants Without Records Proving Their Identity​

Many experts feel this is step one in voter fraud. Big data buys those voter rolls and runs against data analytics to determine which individuals on those rolls are least likely to vote. The experts then hypothesize those remaining “voters” that are very unlikely to vote become the baseline for ballot harvesting that we are starting to see in states.

 

[dkp993]

Does the article make any specific claims of fraud, or is this just the 10 millionth article posted by a right wing website that tries to scare people who don’t know how elections are run into believing our elections are ripe with fraud. (They aren’t).

the article is what it says it is - in this day and age where one side screams how unfair it is that you have to spend 10 minutes to vote and show you're a US citizen and the other side screams how unfair it is that we have such lax rules/restrictions/regulations in voting ..... I thought it tied in

New York Voter Rolls Include 3.1M Registrants Without Records Proving Their Identity​

Many experts feel this is step one in voter fraud. Big data buys those voter rolls and runs against data analytics to determine which individuals on those rolls are least likely to vote. The experts then hypothesize those remaining “voters” that are very unlikely to vote become the baseline for ballot harvesting that we are starting to see in states.

lol. I so love this. “Many experts feel”, “lots of people are saying”, “many people have told me”….. “hypothesize”. Lol. I laugh because it’s legitimately funny. It’s funny not just because they have fully adopted the Trump vernacular but because the exact same people using vague empty statements where they literally use words that equate to “guessing” are the exact same people that have problem with Anonymous or unnamed sources. You literally can’t make this stuff up man.

 

[The Commish]

After listening to some folks here I started to reassess my thinking on the EC. So according to the 2010 census FL. has 9% of the population that is considered rural. Knowing that urban areas vote overwhelmingly Democratic FL should always be blue. We all know that's not true is it just an anomaly?

Still trying to figure what's fair popular vote or EC. Looking at this chart it would seem to me there would be no contest if Dems voted urban and Rs voted rural. We would always have basically a one party system. Still trying to figure it out.

Rural States Are Almost Entirely Ignored Under Current State-by-State System

Political influence in the Electoral College is based on whether the state is a closely divided battleground state. Under the current state-by-state winner-take all method of awarding electoral votes, presidential candidates ignore states where they are safely ahead or hopelessly behind...

www.nationalpopularvote.com

I think using rural and urban as the only two categories misses the mark. Isn't a very significant portion of the population somewhere in between, in that suburban category?

We eliminate a lot of people from the "conversation" if we go beyond binary choices. I agree with both you and rusty on this one though.

 

[The Commish]

I agree with this 100%. Both sides like to rig the system. The thing is, I don’t want ANYONE to rig it. Or even to be able to.

We need to turn our focus to the EC and the House to do the heavy lifting on the rigging part. It's grossly out of whack and has been for a really long time. Districts need to be different and the House expanded.

 

[Stealthycat]

Everyone should want fair representation. I hold Democrats accountable in particular for not making progress on this issue because fair representation never has been and never will be something that Republicans care about.

is the Senate fair ?

should big cities / urban areas from now on control who is President and rural people have no choice ? that's fair ?

 

[Dickies]

Everyone should want fair representation. I hold Democrats accountable in particular for not making progress on this issue because fair representation never has been and never will be something that Republicans care about.

is the Senate fair ?

should big cities / urban areas from now on control who is President and rural people have no choice ? that's fair ?

Rural voters would still have a say

 

[BladeRunner]

I’m not sure I agree. Winner take all EC only puts 4-5 states in play in a given election year. A lot of people stay home because of this.

If states just award ec votes by % of popular vote all you are doing is using a divisor in chief.

There should be no argument about this, it's basic math. And also kinda awkward and ineffective when applied to states with only one or two congressional districts.

I was wrong earlier about Wisconsin, which actually had a far worse bill introduced. The proposed legislation would have split the electoral count by congressional district, not popular vote proportionately. A very nice deal for Wisconsin Republicans, who have the congressional districts rigged to give them six of eight seats in a fitty fitty state.

Just to be clear here, The WI Democrats were not complaining about it when they had the maps "rigged" in their favor.

So, the complaining that is happening now is not that the GOP has it "rigged" in their favor, it's that the DNC is upset it's not "rigged" in THEIR favor. For them, it's not about being fair either.

I agree with this 100%. Both sides like to rig the system. The thing is, I don’t want ANYONE to rig it. Or even to be able to.

This is exactly where I'm at.

I'd like both sides to come out and say, "Well, we've both abused the system and tried to change things to our favor. That stops today". Also, lots of these "independent judges" or "independent boards" that people come up with to decide these things are not "independent" in the least, IMO.

I don't know what the RIGHT way to decide these maps is, but I do know the CURRENT way is not right. Can't we just put 5 ELECTED Democrats and 5 ELECTED Republicans in a room and have them work it out?

No food and water until it's done (I'm kidding).

 

[Amused to Death]

should big cities / urban areas from now on control who is President and rural people have no choice ? that's fair ?

Its fair if everyone's vote counts the same. What's not fair is someone's vote counting more because of their address.

 

[Stealthycat]

lol. I so love this. “Many experts feel”, “lots of people are saying”, “many people have told me”….. “hypothesize”. Lol. I laugh because it’s legitimately funny. It’s funny not just because they have fully adopted the Trump vernacular but because the exact same people using vague empty statements where they literally use words that equate to “guessing” are the exact same people that have problem with Anonymous or unnamed sources. You literally can’t make this stuff up man.

why - in your opinion - does the left/liberal side completely reject and understand how the right/conservative side see's/feels about elections/mail in ballots ?

honest answer please

 

[BladeRunner]

Just to be clear here, The WI Democrats were not complaining about it when they had the maps "rigged" in their favor.

So, the complaining that is happening now is not that the GOP has it "rigged" in their favor, it's that the DNC is upset it's not "rigged" in THEIR favor. For them, it's not about being fair either.

When were these maps rigged in democrats favor? Republicans have controlled the legislature since 1995

Oh, my bad. I didn't realize that Legislatures have only existed for 27 years and they've always been controlled by Republicans.

 

[Stealthycat]

Rural voters would still have a say

never would it matter because again - Rural areas in the United States, often referred to as Rural America, consists of approximately 97% of the United States' land area. An estimated 60 million people, or one-in-five residents (17.9% of the total U.S. population), live in Rural America

with only 20% population rural ... how in the world would we matter ?

 

[BladeRunner]

Does the article make any specific claims of fraud, or is this just the 10 millionth article posted by a right wing website that tries to scare people who don’t know how elections are run into believing our elections are ripe with fraud. (They aren’t).

the article is what it says it is - in this day and age where one side screams how unfair it is that you have to spend 10 minutes to vote and show you're a US citizen and the other side screams how unfair it is that we have such lax rules/restrictions/regulations in voting ..... I thought it tied in

New York Voter Rolls Include 3.1M Registrants Without Records Proving Their Identity​

Many experts feel this is step one in voter fraud. Big data buys those voter rolls and runs against data analytics to determine which individuals on those rolls are least likely to vote. The experts then hypothesize those remaining “voters” that are very unlikely to vote become the baseline for ballot harvesting that we are starting to see in states.

lol. I so love this. “Many experts feel”, “lots of people are saying”, “many people have told me”….. “hypothesize”. Lol. I laugh because it’s legitimately funny. It’s funny not just because they have fully adopted the Trump vernacular but because the exact same people using vague empty statements where they literally use words that equate to “guessing” are the exact same people that have problem with Anonymous or unnamed sources. You literally can’t make this stuff up man.

Kind of like "Anonymous source says...", "A source close to X heard...." and "We have it on good word that...."?

Because those were NEVER a problem or hilarious from 2016-2020.

 

[sho nuff]

Everyone should want fair representation. I hold Democrats accountable in particular for not making progress on this issue because fair representation never has been and never will be something that Republicans care about.

is the Senate fair ?

should big cities / urban areas from now on control who is President and rural people have no choice ? that's fair ?

Votes from people in the cities would count the same as those who live in rural areas.

 

[sho nuff]

lol. I so love this. “Many experts feel”, “lots of people are saying”, “many people have told me”….. “hypothesize”. Lol. I laugh because it’s legitimately funny. It’s funny not just because they have fully adopted the Trump vernacular but because the exact same people using vague empty statements where they literally use words that equate to “guessing” are the exact same people that have problem with Anonymous or unnamed sources. You literally can’t make this stuff up man.

why - in your opinion - does the left/liberal side completely reject and understand how the right/conservative side see's/feels about elections/mail in ballots ?

honest answer please

Because studies and commissions have found their concerns about the election and mail in ballots to be without merit?
Seems a good reason to reject people complaining about mail in votes and fraud...

 

[sho nuff]

Rural voters would still have a say

never would it matter because again - Rural areas in the United States, often referred to as Rural America, consists of approximately 97% of the United States' land area. An estimated 60 million people, or one-in-five residents (17.9% of the total U.S. population), live in Rural America

with only 20% population rural ... how in the world would we matter ?

Why does land area matter? How would your vote count less than another person's?

 

[quick-hands]

I’m not sure I agree. Winner take all EC only puts 4-5 states in play in a given election year. A lot of people stay home because of this.

If states just award ec votes by % of popular vote all you are doing is using a divisor in chief.

This isn't true because the EC votes aren't distributed equally by population. For example, Wyoming has 3 EC votes even though their population is much less than 3/538 of the total US population.

that's not how it works. you could argue that Wyoming doesn't deserve a representative in the house. is that your argument?

 

[Dickies]

Rural voters would still have a say

never would it matter because again - Rural areas in the United States, often referred to as Rural America, consists of approximately 97% of the United States' land area. An estimated 60 million people, or one-in-five residents (17.9% of the total U.S. population), live in Rural America

with only 20% population rural ... how in the world would we matter ?

You don’t think 20% of the population matters?

 

[the moops]

Just to be clear here, The WI Democrats were not complaining about it when they had the maps "rigged" in their favor.

So, the complaining that is happening now is not that the GOP has it "rigged" in their favor, it's that the DNC is upset it's not "rigged" in THEIR favor. For them, it's not about being fair either.

When were these maps rigged in democrats favor? Republicans have controlled the legislature since 1995

Oh, my bad. I didn't realize that Legislatures have only existed for 27 years and they've always been controlled by Republicans.

OK so nothing specific then? I mean maybe you are correct that in the early 90’s the democrats gerrymandered the **** out of WI but you haven’t shown any work so at this point it’s just another whataboutism rather than addressing the argument.

 

[dkp993]

lol. I so love this. “Many experts feel”, “lots of people are saying”, “many people have told me”….. “hypothesize”. Lol. I laugh because it’s legitimately funny. It’s funny not just because they have fully adopted the Trump vernacular but because the exact same people using vague empty statements where they literally use words that equate to “guessing” are the exact same people that have problem with Anonymous or unnamed sources. You literally can’t make this stuff up man.

why - in your opinion - does the left/liberal side completely reject and understand how the right/conservative side see's/feels about elections/mail in ballots ?

honest answer please

While, that has absolutely nothing to do with my post and I am not left. I will answer the question. For the same reason the right/conservative side, completely rejects and understand how the left/liberals feel About election/Mail in ballots.

 

[dkp993]

Does the article make any specific claims of fraud, or is this just the 10 millionth article posted by a right wing website that tries to scare people who don’t know how elections are run into believing our elections are ripe with fraud. (They aren’t).

the article is what it says it is - in this day and age where one side screams how unfair it is that you have to spend 10 minutes to vote and show you're a US citizen and the other side screams how unfair it is that we have such lax rules/restrictions/regulations in voting ..... I thought it tied in

New York Voter Rolls Include 3.1M Registrants Without Records Proving Their Identity​

Many experts feel this is step one in voter fraud. Big data buys those voter rolls and runs against data analytics to determine which individuals on those rolls are least likely to vote. The experts then hypothesize those remaining “voters” that are very unlikely to vote become the baseline for ballot harvesting that we are starting to see in states.

lol. I so love this. “Many experts feel”, “lots of people are saying”, “many people have told me”….. “hypothesize”. Lol. I laugh because it’s legitimately funny. It’s funny not just because they have fully adopted the Trump vernacular but because the exact same people using vague empty statements where they literally use words that equate to “guessing” are the exact same people that have problem with Anonymous or unnamed sources. You literally can’t make this stuff up man.

Kind of like "Anonymous source says...", "A source close to X heard...." and "We have it on good word that...."?

Because those were NEVER a problem or hilarious from 2016-2020.

Yet now they’re OK when they fit your narrative or say something you agree with?? Interesting how that works.