Election Deniers Are Bad, Right? (1 Viewer)

[Shula-holic]

I am curious how many people listed a departure from the norms as one of their main issues with Trump who also favor doing away with the EC, the way the Senate is determined, which gives power to individual states. To change that is to change our whole way of government.

 

[Stealthycat]

Why does land area matter? How would your vote count less than another person's?

maybe visuals will help

File:2020 United States presidential election results map by county.svg - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

File:2008 General Election Results by County.PNG - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

File:2012 Presidential Election by County.svg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

see ?

rural US matters because of Electoral College and most often, EC lines up with popular vote but with EC in place rural USA matters in elections

without EC, all the red you see? irrelevant, because the blue areas, they matter way more because of population


rural USA would not have representation unless they votes the same as the urban blue areas ..... do you not agree with that ?

 

[rustycolts]

lol. I so love this. “Many experts feel”, “lots of people are saying”, “many people have told me”….. “hypothesize”. Lol. I laugh because it’s legitimately funny. It’s funny not just because they have fully adopted the Trump vernacular but because the exact same people using vague empty statements where they literally use words that equate to “guessing” are the exact same people that have problem with Anonymous or unnamed sources. You literally can’t make this stuff up man.

why - in your opinion - does the left/liberal side completely reject and understand how the right/conservative side see's/feels about elections/mail in ballots ?

honest answer please

Hey buddy, I'm probably as conservative as you are maybe more so being I'm an old fart.

I've got to say Mail in ballots in Florida are not a problem for the most part. Yes sometimes there are a few issues in S. Florida but we are used to that(they can't seem to get out of their own way down there)it's usually rectified right away.

Maybe some of the other states should look into how we do it in Florida. It's not as bad as you think. I'm not saying there was no chicanery going on in other states because there definitely was. But if mail in ballots are done right its a great system.

 

[zoonation]

lol. I so love this. “Many experts feel”, “lots of people are saying”, “many people have told me”….. “hypothesize”. Lol. I laugh because it’s legitimately funny. It’s funny not just because they have fully adopted the Trump vernacular but because the exact same people using vague empty statements where they literally use words that equate to “guessing” are the exact same people that have problem with Anonymous or unnamed sources. You literally can’t make this stuff up man.

why - in your opinion - does the left/liberal side completely reject and understand how the right/conservative side see's/feels about elections/mail in ballots ?

honest answer please

Hey buddy, I'm probably as conservative as you are maybe more so being I'm an old fart.

I've got to say Mail in ballots in Florida are not a problem for the most part. Yes sometimes there are a few issues in S. Florida but we are used to that(they can't seem to get out of their own way down there)it's usually rectified right away.

Maybe some of the other states should look into how we do it in Florida. It's not as bad as you think. I'm not saying there was no chicanery going on in other states because there definitely was. But if mail in ballots are done right its a great system.

Do tell.

 

[HomerSimpson]

Why does land area matter? How would your vote count less than another person's?

maybe visuals will help

File:2020 United States presidential election results map by county.svg - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

File:2008 General Election Results by County.PNG - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

File:2012 Presidential Election by County.svg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

see ?

rural US matters because of Electoral College and most often, EC lines up with popular vote but with EC in place rural USA matters in elections

without EC, all the red you see? irrelevant, because the blue areas, they matter way more because of population


rural USA would not have representation unless they votes the same as the urban blue areas ..... do you not agree with that ?

The land in Iowa doesnt care about Abortion, or Tax rates. The people do. The land in California doesnt care about Abortion or Tax Rates. The people do. People Vote. American Citizens no matter what land they live on vote. So the laws should reflect what the people want.

 

[Stealthycat]

The land in Iowa doesnt care about Abortion, or Tax rates. The people do. The land in California doesnt care about Abortion or Tax Rates. The people do. People Vote. American Citizens no matter what land they live on vote. So the laws should reflect what the people want.

wrong

the city and county laws in your residency I don't vote on or control in any way, shape or form. My state is independent of yours as far as my fellow Arkansans voting for your states rules/laws/restrictions etc

At a national level .... we vote for Presidency don't we? And that President, if the EC was dismantled, would always be elected by people in cities because they have 80% of the population

don't you understand that ?

 

[HomerSimpson]

The land in Iowa doesnt care about Abortion, or Tax rates. The people do. The land in California doesnt care about Abortion or Tax Rates. The people do. People Vote. American Citizens no matter what land they live on vote. So the laws should reflect what the people want.

wrong

the city and county laws in your residency I don't vote on or control in any way, shape or form. My state is independent of yours as far as my fellow Arkansans voting for your states rules/laws/restrictions etc

At a national level .... we vote for Presidency don't we? And that President, if the EC was dismantled, would always be elected by people in cities because they have 80% of the population

don't you understand that ?

I do understand that. The majority of American Voting Citizens should determine who the President (who by the way chooses Supreme Court Justices who make laws that do affect me) is. I live in California, someone who lives in Wyoming's vote is more valuable than mine because of the Electoral College. Is that fair?

 

[Shula-holic]

The land in Iowa doesnt care about Abortion, or Tax rates. The people do. The land in California doesnt care about Abortion or Tax Rates. The people do. People Vote. American Citizens no matter what land they live on vote. So the laws should reflect what the people want.

wrong

the city and county laws in your residency I don't vote on or control in any way, shape or form. My state is independent of yours as far as my fellow Arkansans voting for your states rules/laws/restrictions etc

At a national level .... we vote for Presidency don't we? And that President, if the EC was dismantled, would always be elected by people in cities because they have 80% of the population

don't you understand that ?

I do understand that. The majority of American Voting Citizens should determine who the President (who by the way chooses Supreme Court Justices who make laws that do affect me) is. I live in California, someone who lives in Wyoming's vote is more valuable than mine because of the Electoral College. Is that fair?

Part of it is states have different cultures, ways of life. Coastal cities, midwestern cities like Chicago, the farms of Iowa, the mines of WV, all should be represented. They always have been, to do away with it now is essentially dismantling our form of government. We all know these states are never going to ratify a change in the system to EC or Senate, so what is the end game for it?

 

[rustycolts]

Do tell.

Well that's my opinion on what happened in US 2020 election. I try to not voice opinions on what happens in other countries elections because I don't live there. Like Canada for instance.

 

[zoonation]

Do tell.

Well that's my opinion on what happened in US 2020 election. I try to not voice opinions on what happens in other countries elections because I don't live there. Like Canada for instance.

Oh. I see. It's your opinion. And what is that opinion based on?

 

[HomerSimpson]

The land in Iowa doesnt care about Abortion, or Tax rates. The people do. The land in California doesnt care about Abortion or Tax Rates. The people do. People Vote. American Citizens no matter what land they live on vote. So the laws should reflect what the people want.

wrong

the city and county laws in your residency I don't vote on or control in any way, shape or form. My state is independent of yours as far as my fellow Arkansans voting for your states rules/laws/restrictions etc

At a national level .... we vote for Presidency don't we? And that President, if the EC was dismantled, would always be elected by people in cities because they have 80% of the population

don't you understand that ?

I do understand that. The majority of American Voting Citizens should determine who the President (who by the way chooses Supreme Court Justices who make laws that do affect me) is. I live in California, someone who lives in Wyoming's vote is more valuable than mine because of the Electoral College. Is that fair?

Part of it is states have different cultures, ways of life. Coastal cities, midwestern cities like Chicago, the farms of Iowa, the mines of WV, all should be represented. They always have been, to do away with it now is essentially dismantling our form of government. We all know these states are never going to ratify a change in the system to EC or Senate, so what is the end game for it?

Agreed. It's just a fun debate~

 

[zoonation]

Anyway, back to the actual topic of the thread:

A majority of GOP candidate on the ballot this fall deny the 2020 election result

Incredible.

 

[dkp993]

Do tell.

Well that's my opinion on what happened in US 2020 election. I try to not voice opinions on what happens in other countries elections because I don't live there. Like Canada for instance.

Oh. I see. It's your opinion. And what is that opinion based on?

Zoo. I’m really not sure what the point of these type of conversations are anymore. This far out people who are relatively engaged, as Rusty is, have formed opinions already. Nothing new is going to come up to change those opinions ,on either side of the argument. So I’m just not sure I see much value in asking a question of Rusty, like you did.

 

[Stealthycat]

I do understand that. The majority of American Voting Citizens should determine who the President (who by the way chooses Supreme Court Justices who make laws that do affect me) is. I live in California, someone who lives in Wyoming's vote is more valuable than mine because of the Electoral College. Is that fair?

good point - cities would always control Supreme Court judges being appointed ... another reason to have Electoral College

WY isn't as valuable as CA when it comes to voting .... you and I should be able to agree on that. Does a single vote in WY have a little more weight? Yes it does. Should it? Well without it, there would never be a chance for WY voters to really make any difference at all because LA alone has a population of almost 4 million people, WY as an entire state has 581,000

See how WY don't matter if its popular vote only ? the Electoral College gives weight, absolutely it does .......... and in rare elections it does/can matter. GW in 2000 right ? Almost always EC flows right along with popular voting. But just knowing that your votes/state DOES matter. .... matters

 

[Yankee23Fan]

I am curious how many people listed a departure from the norms as one of their main issues with Trump who also favor doing away with the EC, the way the Senate is determined, which gives power to individual states. To change that is to change our whole way of government.

It could just be a missing comma or something, but the Electoral College has nothing to do with the make-up of the Senate.

 

[HomerSimpson]

I do understand that. The majority of American Voting Citizens should determine who the President (who by the way chooses Supreme Court Justices who make laws that do affect me) is. I live in California, someone who lives in Wyoming's vote is more valuable than mine because of the Electoral College. Is that fair?

good point - cities would always control Supreme Court judges being appointed ... another reason to have Electoral College

WY isn't as valuable as CA when it comes to voting .... you and I should be able to agree on that. Does a single vote in WY have a little more weight? Yes it does. Should it? Well without it, there would never be a chance for WY voters to really make any difference at all because LA alone has a population of almost 4 million people, WY as an entire state has 581,000

See how WY don't matter if its popular vote only ? the Electoral College gives weight, absolutely it does .......... and in rare elections it does/can matter. GW in 2000 right ? Almost always EC flows right along with popular voting. But just knowing that your votes/state DOES matter. .... matters

But, Wyoming would matter, if Politicians had to appeal to people in Wyoming and California to win, they would alter their policies, visit both states, appeal to the voters of all walks of life, cities and rural and the best man or woman would win. As it is now, candidates only visit a handful of states and dont give a (poop, can I say poop?) about the voters in 45 states because they know they have the Electoral Votes on lock.

 

[Dickies]

I do understand that. The majority of American Voting Citizens should determine who the President (who by the way chooses Supreme Court Justices who make laws that do affect me) is. I live in California, someone who lives in Wyoming's vote is more valuable than mine because of the Electoral College. Is that fair?

good point - cities would always control Supreme Court judges being appointed ... another reason to have Electoral College

WY isn't as valuable as CA when it comes to voting .... you and I should be able to agree on that. Does a single vote in WY have a little more weight? Yes it does. Should it? Well without it, there would never be a chance for WY voters to really make any difference at all because LA alone has a population of almost 4 million people, WY as an entire state has 581,000

See how WY don't matter if its popular vote only ? the Electoral College gives weight, absolutely it does .......... and in rare elections it does/can matter. GW in 2000 right ? Almost always EC flows right along with popular voting. But just knowing that your votes/state DOES matter. .... matters

Except neither LA nor Wyoming voters all vote the same. In a popular vote system a voter in Wyoming will have exactly the same amount of say as a voter in Chicago. We arbitrarily assign point values to land masses based imprecisely on how many people reside in each land mass. There is a reason that states and cities don't employ such a stupid system to their local elections....

 

[Amused to Death]

good point - cities would always control Supreme Court judges being appointed

Not cities, the majority of the people. Right now we have a SCOTUS that represents a minority of the country.

Again, I can't possibly understand how one person, one vote is unfair to anyone.

We are a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. Land isn't mentioned anywhere.

 

[Shula-holic]

I am curious how many people listed a departure from the norms as one of their main issues with Trump who also favor doing away with the EC, the way the Senate is determined, which gives power to individual states. To change that is to change our whole way of government.

It could just be a missing comma or something, but the Electoral College has nothing to do with the make-up of the Senate.

There's a comma there, separate issue. English was my weakest area on the ACT, granted.

 

[djmich]

So are we proposing that we call states “land masses” going forward lol.

 

[roadkill1292]

The future danger of the EC, and the Senate,too, for that matter, is that a system which continually overrewards the minority will be seen as illegitimate by a majority whose numbers don't allow it to govern.

That's a system fraught with danger that I don't think the current right has recognized. Just because we're nearly fitty fitty now doesn't mean we will be in the decades to come as the electorate turns over.

 

[djmich]

There’s limits to how lopsided the relation between the EC and general can be, right? Anyone know the biggest disparity we’ve had.

So I guess the assumption going forward is that the left does not support the EC any longer?

Tbh, this concern would be way down on my list of concerns about our nation.

 

[Godsbrother]

I have a conservative friend that lives in New York state. He feels his vote for president doesn't mean much as someone in a battleground state. He would prefer that the electoral college remain but not be an "all or nothing" approach.

Personally I don't care too much as long as we don't have losing candidates pressure election officials to find votes, set up fake electors, and form mobs to try to disrupt the certification of the USA presidential election.

 

[BladeRunner]

Does the article make any specific claims of fraud, or is this just the 10 millionth article posted by a right wing website that tries to scare people who don’t know how elections are run into believing our elections are ripe with fraud. (They aren’t).

the article is what it says it is - in this day and age where one side screams how unfair it is that you have to spend 10 minutes to vote and show you're a US citizen and the other side screams how unfair it is that we have such lax rules/restrictions/regulations in voting ..... I thought it tied in

New York Voter Rolls Include 3.1M Registrants Without Records Proving Their Identity​

Many experts feel this is step one in voter fraud. Big data buys those voter rolls and runs against data analytics to determine which individuals on those rolls are least likely to vote. The experts then hypothesize those remaining “voters” that are very unlikely to vote become the baseline for ballot harvesting that we are starting to see in states.

lol. I so love this. “Many experts feel”, “lots of people are saying”, “many people have told me”….. “hypothesize”. Lol. I laugh because it’s legitimately funny. It’s funny not just because they have fully adopted the Trump vernacular but because the exact same people using vague empty statements where they literally use words that equate to “guessing” are the exact same people that have problem with Anonymous or unnamed sources. You literally can’t make this stuff up man.

Kind of like "Anonymous source says...", "A source close to X heard...." and "We have it on good word that...."?

Because those were NEVER a problem or hilarious from 2016-2020.

Yet now they’re OK when they fit your narrative or say something you agree with?? Interesting how that works.

Right? And now they're NOT OK when they don't fit yours!

Round and round, round it goes.
Where it stops, nobody knows!

 

[roadkill1292]

I don't know if the left or Democrats in general are no longer supporting the EC. But I'm not and I'm trying to convince others to join me. Fixing unrepresentative systems is pretty important to me and I make no apologies.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

I am curious how many people listed a departure from the norms as one of their main issues with Trump who also favor doing away with the EC, the way the Senate is determined, which gives power to individual states. To change that is to change our whole way of government.

It could just be a missing comma or something, but the Electoral College has nothing to do with the make-up of the Senate.

There's a comma there, separate issue. English was my weakest area on the ACT, granted.

Ok.

So the makeup of the Senate was fine. We bastardized it with the 17th Amendment. All the arguments for the EC being made here are actually arguments for the repeal of the 17th Amendment

As for the Electoral College, all the arguments about small state big state and urban rural are ignoring the other reason for the Electoral College. It was also designed to be one more stopgap and moment of pause in the election of the President. There was a real fear that even with a federal system someone could be elected that had no business anywhere close to the office.

Alexander Hamilton, "It was also peculiarly desirable to afford as little opportunity as possible to tumult and disorder. This evil was not least to be dreaded in the election of a magistrate, who was to have so important an agency in the administration of the government as the President of the United States. But the precautions which have been so happily concerted in the system under consideration, promise an effectual security against this mischief. The choice of SEVERAL, to form an intermediate body of electors, will be much less apt to convulse the community with any extraordinary or violent movements, than the choice of ONE who was himself to be the final object of the public wishes. And as the electors, chosen in each State, are to assemble and vote in the State in which they are chosen, this detached and divided situation will expose them much less to heats and ferments, which might be communicated from them to the people, than if they were all to be convened at one time, in one place.

Nothing was more to be desired than that every practicable obstacle should be opposed to cabal, intrigue, and corruption. These most deadly adversaries of republican government might naturally have been expected to make their approaches from more than one querter, but chiefly from the desire in foreign powers to gain an improper ascendant in our councils. How could they better gratify this, than by raising a creature of their own to the chief magistracy of the Union? But the convention have guarded against all danger of this sort, with the most provident and judicious attention. They have not made the appointment of the President to depend on any preexisting bodies of men, who might be tampered with beforehand to prostitute their votes; but they have referred it in the first instance to an immediate act of the people of America, to be exerted in the choice of persons for the temporary and sole purpose of making the appointment. And they have excluded from eligibility to this trust, all those who from situation might be suspected of too great devotion to the President in office. No senator, representative, or other person holding a place of trust or profit under the United States, can be of the numbers of the electors. Thus without corrupting the body of the people, the immediate agents in the election will at least enter upon the task free from any sinister bias. Their transient existence, and their detached situation, already taken notice of, afford a satisfactory prospect of their continuing so, to the conclusion of it. The business of corruption, when it is to embrace so considerable a number of men, requires time as well as means. Nor would it be found easy suddenly to embark them, dispersed as they would be over thirteen States, in any combinations founded upon motives, which though they could not properly be denominated corrupt, might yet be of a nature to mislead them from their duty.."

The Electoral College was designed...meaning it's original intent...to bar someone like Donald Trump from ever holding the office. It failed. And if it failed at the most important job, then maybe it isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

 

[Dickies]

As for the Electoral College, all the arguments about small state big state and urban rural are ignoring the other reason for the Electoral College. It was also designed to be one more stopgap and moment of pause in the election of the President. There was a real fear that even with a federal system someone could be elected that had no business anywhere close to the office.

This worked well....

ETA: should have continued reading your post.

 

[dkp993]

Does the article make any specific claims of fraud, or is this just the 10 millionth article posted by a right wing website that tries to scare people who don’t know how elections are run into believing our elections are ripe with fraud. (They aren’t).

the article is what it says it is - in this day and age where one side screams how unfair it is that you have to spend 10 minutes to vote and show you're a US citizen and the other side screams how unfair it is that we have such lax rules/restrictions/regulations in voting ..... I thought it tied in

New York Voter Rolls Include 3.1M Registrants Without Records Proving Their Identity​

Many experts feel this is step one in voter fraud. Big data buys those voter rolls and runs against data analytics to determine which individuals on those rolls are least likely to vote. The experts then hypothesize those remaining “voters” that are very unlikely to vote become the baseline for ballot harvesting that we are starting to see in states.

lol. I so love this. “Many experts feel”, “lots of people are saying”, “many people have told me”….. “hypothesize”. Lol. I laugh because it’s legitimately funny. It’s funny not just because they have fully adopted the Trump vernacular but because the exact same people using vague empty statements where they literally use words that equate to “guessing” are the exact same people that have problem with Anonymous or unnamed sources. You literally can’t make this stuff up man.

Kind of like "Anonymous source says...", "A source close to X heard...." and "We have it on good word that...."?

Because those were NEVER a problem or hilarious from 2016-2020.

Yet now they’re OK when they fit your narrative or say something you agree with?? Interesting how that works.

Right? And now they're NOT OK when they don't fit yours!

Round and round, round it goes.
Where it stops, nobody knows!

ehhh, actually not. As I explained to you in the other thread about the FBI agents and the preacher, where Journalism is being discussed I tend to lean toward believing the sourcing of facts, as I did in that story (a “side” I did not agree with btw). I’m very consistent in that.

Here you’ve got people who are VERY anti “anonymous sources“ not naming the “many experts“ guesses (not facts, guesses). If you can’t acknowledge the irony of that position well you’re either being hyper partisan or just wanting to argue for arguments sake.

Trumps biggest tell (worse then Teddy KGB’s Oreos tell) when he’s lying or trying to sell us a story is when he does the “many people are saying” ****ck. As the non Trump guy you say you are you should at least be able to see that.

 

[BladeRunner]

Does the article make any specific claims of fraud, or is this just the 10 millionth article posted by a right wing website that tries to scare people who don’t know how elections are run into believing our elections are ripe with fraud. (They aren’t).

the article is what it says it is - in this day and age where one side screams how unfair it is that you have to spend 10 minutes to vote and show you're a US citizen and the other side screams how unfair it is that we have such lax rules/restrictions/regulations in voting ..... I thought it tied in

New York Voter Rolls Include 3.1M Registrants Without Records Proving Their Identity​

Many experts feel this is step one in voter fraud. Big data buys those voter rolls and runs against data analytics to determine which individuals on those rolls are least likely to vote. The experts then hypothesize those remaining “voters” that are very unlikely to vote become the baseline for ballot harvesting that we are starting to see in states.

lol. I so love this. “Many experts feel”, “lots of people are saying”, “many people have told me”….. “hypothesize”. Lol. I laugh because it’s legitimately funny. It’s funny not just because they have fully adopted the Trump vernacular but because the exact same people using vague empty statements where they literally use words that equate to “guessing” are the exact same people that have problem with Anonymous or unnamed sources. You literally can’t make this stuff up man.

Kind of like "Anonymous source says...", "A source close to X heard...." and "We have it on good word that...."?

Because those were NEVER a problem or hilarious from 2016-2020.

Yet now they’re OK when they fit your narrative or say something you agree with?? Interesting how that works.

Right? And now they're NOT OK when they don't fit yours!

Round and round, round it goes.
Where it stops, nobody knows!

ehhh, actually not. As I explained to you in the other thread about the FBI agents and the preacher, where Journalism is being discussed I tend to lean toward believing the sourcing of facts, as I did in that story (a “side” I did not agree with btw). I’m very consistent in that.

Here you’ve got people who are VERY anti “anonymous sources“ not naming the “many experts“ guesses (not facts, guesses). If you can’t acknowledge the irony of that position well your either being hyper partisan or just wanting to argue for arguments sake.

Trumps biggest tell (worse then Teddy KGB’s Oreos tell) when he’s lying or trying to sell us a story is when he does the “many people are saying” ****ck. As the non Trump guy you say you are you should at least be able to see that.

I agree there are people who are VERY anti "anonymous sources" regardless of where the story is coming from and then we have anti "anonymous sources" only when it's a story that shines their tribe in a bad light. This has been the MAJORITY of left leaning posters here since I got here in 2019. IMO, with them, the more "anonymous sources" a story had the more 100+% fact it was - as long as it was hammering on the right and/or Trump.

You might be consistent, but you're the exception to the rule. So maybe I'll consider you a PSF Independent-Light™ poster.

 

[Shawnky]

Does the article make any specific claims of fraud, or is this just the 10 millionth article posted by a right wing website that tries to scare people who don’t know how elections are run into believing our elections are ripe with fraud. (They aren’t).

the article is what it says it is - in this day and age where one side screams how unfair it is that you have to spend 10 minutes to vote and show you're a US citizen and the other side screams how unfair it is that we have such lax rules/restrictions/regulations in voting ..... I thought it tied in

New York Voter Rolls Include 3.1M Registrants Without Records Proving Their Identity​

Many experts feel this is step one in voter fraud. Big data buys those voter rolls and runs against data analytics to determine which individuals on those rolls are least likely to vote. The experts then hypothesize those remaining “voters” that are very unlikely to vote become the baseline for ballot harvesting that we are starting to see in states.

lol. I so love this. “Many experts feel”, “lots of people are saying”, “many people have told me”….. “hypothesize”. Lol. I laugh because it’s legitimately funny. It’s funny not just because they have fully adopted the Trump vernacular but because the exact same people using vague empty statements where they literally use words that equate to “guessing” are the exact same people that have problem with Anonymous or unnamed sources. You literally can’t make this stuff up man.

Also using Breibart as a source doesn’t really help an argument.

 

[The Commish]

I do understand that. The majority of American Voting Citizens should determine who the President (who by the way chooses Supreme Court Justices who make laws that do affect me) is. I live in California, someone who lives in Wyoming's vote is more valuable than mine because of the Electoral College. Is that fair?

good point - cities would always control Supreme Court judges being appointed ... another reason to have Electoral College

WY isn't as valuable as CA when it comes to voting .... you and I should be able to agree on that. Does a single vote in WY have a little more weight? Yes it does. Should it? Well without it, there would never be a chance for WY voters to really make any difference at all because LA alone has a population of almost 4 million people, WY as an entire state has 581,000

See how WY don't matter if its popular vote only ? the Electoral College gives weight, absolutely it does .......... and in rare elections it does/can matter. GW in 2000 right ? Almost always EC flows right along with popular voting. But just knowing that your votes/state DOES matter. .... matters

Ummmm.......wtf????

Senate confirms nominations from the president. Every state has two senators. That has nothing to do with the EC. In terms of SC picks, that process doesnt change.

 

[the moops]

I do understand that. The majority of American Voting Citizens should determine who the President (who by the way chooses Supreme Court Justices who make laws that do affect me) is. I live in California, someone who lives in Wyoming's vote is more valuable than mine because of the Electoral College. Is that fair?

good point - cities would always control Supreme Court judges being appointed ... another reason to have Electoral College

WY isn't as valuable as CA when it comes to voting .... you and I should be able to agree on that. Does a single vote in WY have a little more weight? Yes it does. Should it? Well without it, there would never be a chance for WY voters to really make any difference at all because LA alone has a population of almost 4 million people, WY as an entire state has 581,000

See how WY don't matter if its popular vote only ? the Electoral College gives weight, absolutely it does .......... and in rare elections it does/can matter. GW in 2000 right ? Almost always EC flows right along with popular voting. But just knowing that your votes/state DOES matter. .... matters

Ummmm.......wtf????

Senate confirms nominations from the president. Every state has two senators. That has nothing to do with the EC. In terms of SC picks, that process doesnt change.

Yea, but the big cities in the red states will determine who is senator and therefore we would no longer have any republican senators...Oh wait

 

[Shula-holic]

I am curious how many people listed a departure from the norms as one of their main issues with Trump who also favor doing away with the EC, the way the Senate is determined, which gives power to individual states. To change that is to change our whole way of government.

It could just be a missing comma or something, but the Electoral College has nothing to do with the make-up of the Senate.

There's a comma there, separate issue. English was my weakest area on the ACT, granted.

Ok.

So the makeup of the Senate was fine. We bastardized it with the 17th Amendment. All the arguments for the EC being made here are actually arguments for the repeal of the 17th Amendment

As for the Electoral College, all the arguments about small state big state and urban rural are ignoring the other reason for the Electoral College. It was also designed to be one more stopgap and moment of pause in the election of the President. There was a real fear that even with a federal system someone could be elected that had no business anywhere close to the office.

Alexander Hamilton, "It was also peculiarly desirable to afford as little opportunity as possible to tumult and disorder. This evil was not least to be dreaded in the election of a magistrate, who was to have so important an agency in the administration of the government as the President of the United States. But the precautions which have been so happily concerted in the system under consideration, promise an effectual security against this mischief. The choice of SEVERAL, to form an intermediate body of electors, will be much less apt to convulse the community with any extraordinary or violent movements, than the choice of ONE who was himself to be the final object of the public wishes. And as the electors, chosen in each State, are to assemble and vote in the State in which they are chosen, this detached and divided situation will expose them much less to heats and ferments, which might be communicated from them to the people, than if they were all to be convened at one time, in one place.

Nothing was more to be desired than that every practicable obstacle should be opposed to cabal, intrigue, and corruption. These most deadly adversaries of republican government might naturally have been expected to make their approaches from more than one querter, but chiefly from the desire in foreign powers to gain an improper ascendant in our councils. How could they better gratify this, than by raising a creature of their own to the chief magistracy of the Union? But the convention have guarded against all danger of this sort, with the most provident and judicious attention. They have not made the appointment of the President to depend on any preexisting bodies of men, who might be tampered with beforehand to prostitute their votes; but they have referred it in the first instance to an immediate act of the people of America, to be exerted in the choice of persons for the temporary and sole purpose of making the appointment. And they have excluded from eligibility to this trust, all those who from situation might be suspected of too great devotion to the President in office. No senator, representative, or other person holding a place of trust or profit under the United States, can be of the numbers of the electors. Thus without corrupting the body of the people, the immediate agents in the election will at least enter upon the task free from any sinister bias. Their transient existence, and their detached situation, already taken notice of, afford a satisfactory prospect of their continuing so, to the conclusion of it. The business of corruption, when it is to embrace so considerable a number of men, requires time as well as means. Nor would it be found easy suddenly to embark them, dispersed as they would be over thirteen States, in any combinations founded upon motives, which though they could not properly be denominated corrupt, might yet be of a nature to mislead them from their duty.."

The Electoral College was designed...meaning it's original intent...to bar someone like Donald Trump from ever holding the office. It failed. And if it failed at the most important job, then maybe it isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

To say it failed is an opinion. What I believe is just an opinion. What is fact is to change it today would change the long precedent for the way our country is governed and officials elected. We both know the number of states required for such a change aren't going to go for it.

 

[quick-hands]

I am curious how many people listed a departure from the norms as one of their main issues with Trump who also favor doing away with the EC, the way the Senate is determined, which gives power to individual states. To change that is to change our whole way of government.

It could just be a missing comma or something, but the Electoral College has nothing to do with the make-up of the Senate.

There's a comma there, separate issue. English was my weakest area on the ACT, granted.

Ok.

So the makeup of the Senate was fine. We bastardized it with the 17th Amendment. All the arguments for the EC being made here are actually arguments for the repeal of the 17th Amendment

As for the Electoral College, all the arguments about small state big state and urban rural are ignoring the other reason for the Electoral College. It was also designed to be one more stopgap and moment of pause in the election of the President. There was a real fear that even with a federal system someone could be elected that had no business anywhere close to the office.

Alexander Hamilton, "It was also peculiarly desirable to afford as little opportunity as possible to tumult and disorder. This evil was not least to be dreaded in the election of a magistrate, who was to have so important an agency in the administration of the government as the President of the United States. But the precautions which have been so happily concerted in the system under consideration, promise an effectual security against this mischief. The choice of SEVERAL, to form an intermediate body of electors, will be much less apt to convulse the community with any extraordinary or violent movements, than the choice of ONE who was himself to be the final object of the public wishes. And as the electors, chosen in each State, are to assemble and vote in the State in which they are chosen, this detached and divided situation will expose them much less to heats and ferments, which might be communicated from them to the people, than if they were all to be convened at one time, in one place.

Nothing was more to be desired than that every practicable obstacle should be opposed to cabal, intrigue, and corruption. These most deadly adversaries of republican government might naturally have been expected to make their approaches from more than one querter, but chiefly from the desire in foreign powers to gain an improper ascendant in our councils. How could they better gratify this, than by raising a creature of their own to the chief magistracy of the Union? But the convention have guarded against all danger of this sort, with the most provident and judicious attention. They have not made the appointment of the President to depend on any preexisting bodies of men, who might be tampered with beforehand to prostitute their votes; but they have referred it in the first instance to an immediate act of the people of America, to be exerted in the choice of persons for the temporary and sole purpose of making the appointment. And they have excluded from eligibility to this trust, all those who from situation might be suspected of too great devotion to the President in office. No senator, representative, or other person holding a place of trust or profit under the United States, can be of the numbers of the electors. Thus without corrupting the body of the people, the immediate agents in the election will at least enter upon the task free from any sinister bias. Their transient existence, and their detached situation, already taken notice of, afford a satisfactory prospect of their continuing so, to the conclusion of it. The business of corruption, when it is to embrace so considerable a number of men, requires time as well as means. Nor would it be found easy suddenly to embark them, dispersed as they would be over thirteen States, in any combinations founded upon motives, which though they could not properly be denominated corrupt, might yet be of a nature to mislead them from their duty.."

The Electoral College was designed...meaning it's original intent...to bar someone like Donald Trump from ever holding the office. It failed. And if it failed at the most important job, then maybe it isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

To say it failed is an opinion. What I believe is just an opinion. What is fact is to change it today would change the long precedent for the way our country is governed and officials elected. We both know the number of states required for such a change aren't going to go for it.

just shows the genius of the Founding Father's. let's pull back the power to make laws away from the administrative branch, it belongs in the legislative

 

[Zow]

Everyone should want fair representation. I hold Democrats accountable in particular for not making progress on this issue because fair representation never has been and never will be something that Republicans care about.

is the Senate fair ?

should big cities / urban areas from now on control who is President and rural people have no choice ? that's fair ?

You act like everybody in the urban areas vote the same and have the same needs. Why do you generalize in such a fashion?

 

[Zow]

Why does land area matter? How would your vote count less than another person's?

maybe visuals will help

File:2020 United States presidential election results map by county.svg - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

File:2008 General Election Results by County.PNG - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

File:2012 Presidential Election by County.svg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

see ?

rural US matters because of Electoral College and most often, EC lines up with popular vote but with EC in place rural USA matters in elections

without EC, all the red you see? irrelevant, because the blue areas, they matter way more because of population


rural USA would not have representation unless they votes the same as the urban blue areas ..... do you not agree with that ?

You are somehow suggesting that land mass carries more weight than a single person. Clearly, you have to see why people are going to criticize such a rationale.

Here, I'll use my state (AZ) as an example. For the last ten years I've lived in two huge counties land mass-wise (Mohave and Coconino). Yet, both counties have a mere fraction of the people as the much smaller Maricopa County (Phoenix and its suburbs, basically). Accordingly, why should my vote, if I went and stood in the middle of the grand canyon (which if it was made into its own county would be much larger than most counties in the country) be weighted more as somebody leaving in a Phoenix apartment? Or, yet, somebody living in a Los Angeles apartment?

 

[rustycolts]

lol. I so love this. “Many experts feel”, “lots of people are saying”, “many people have told me”….. “hypothesize”. Lol. I laugh because it’s legitimately funny. It’s funny not just because they have fully adopted the Trump vernacular but because the exact same people using vague empty statements where they literally use words that equate to “guessing” are the exact same people that have problem with Anonymous or unnamed sources. You literally can’t make this stuff up man.

why - in your opinion - does the left/liberal side completely reject and understand how the right/conservative side see's/feels about elections/mail in ballots ?

honest answer please

Hey buddy, I'm probably as conservative as you are maybe more so being I'm an old fart.

I've got to say Mail in ballots in Florida are not a problem for the most part. Yes sometimes there are a few issues in S. Florida but we are used to that(they can't seem to get out of their own way down there)it's usually rectified right away.

Maybe some of the other states should look into how we do it in Florida. It's not as bad as you think. I'm not saying there was no chicanery going on in other states because there definitely was. But if mail in ballots are done right its a great system.

So just got this text message about my mail in ballot.

Edward D, This is a message from Lake County Elections. Your Vote-by-Mail ballot for the upcoming 2022 General Election has been mailed. Questions? Email mailballots@lakevotes.gov or call (352) 343-9734

Pretty easy to keep track of.

 

[Dickies]

Accordingly, why should my vote, if I went and stood in the middle of the grand canyon (which if it was made into its own county would be much larger than most counties in the country) be weighted more as somebody leaving in a Phoenix apartment? Or, yet, somebody living in a Los Angeles apartment?

Before he answers that it would be helpful for him to know who you vote for.

 

[Dickies]

lol. I so love this. “Many experts feel”, “lots of people are saying”, “many people have told me”….. “hypothesize”. Lol. I laugh because it’s legitimately funny. It’s funny not just because they have fully adopted the Trump vernacular but because the exact same people using vague empty statements where they literally use words that equate to “guessing” are the exact same people that have problem with Anonymous or unnamed sources. You literally can’t make this stuff up man.

why - in your opinion - does the left/liberal side completely reject and understand how the right/conservative side see's/feels about elections/mail in ballots ?

honest answer please

Hey buddy, I'm probably as conservative as you are maybe more so being I'm an old fart.

I've got to say Mail in ballots in Florida are not a problem for the most part. Yes sometimes there are a few issues in S. Florida but we are used to that(they can't seem to get out of their own way down there)it's usually rectified right away.

Maybe some of the other states should look into how we do it in Florida. It's not as bad as you think. I'm not saying there was no chicanery going on in other states because there definitely was. But if mail in ballots are done right its a great system.

So just got this text message about my mail in ballot.

Edward D, This is a message from Lake County Elections. Your Vote-by-Mail ballot for the upcoming 2022 General Election has been mailed. Questions? Email mailballots@lakevotes.gov or call (352) 343-9734

Pretty easy to keep track of.

Are you also tracking all of the fraudulent ballots you mailed?

 

[rustycolts]

lol. I so love this. “Many experts feel”, “lots of people are saying”, “many people have told me”….. “hypothesize”. Lol. I laugh because it’s legitimately funny. It’s funny not just because they have fully adopted the Trump vernacular but because the exact same people using vague empty statements where they literally use words that equate to “guessing” are the exact same people that have problem with Anonymous or unnamed sources. You literally can’t make this stuff up man.

why - in your opinion - does the left/liberal side completely reject and understand how the right/conservative side see's/feels about elections/mail in ballots ?

honest answer please

Hey buddy, I'm probably as conservative as you are maybe more so being I'm an old fart.

I've got to say Mail in ballots in Florida are not a problem for the most part. Yes sometimes there are a few issues in S. Florida but we are used to that(they can't seem to get out of their own way down there)it's usually rectified right away.

Maybe some of the other states should look into how we do it in Florida. It's not as bad as you think. I'm not saying there was no chicanery going on in other states because there definitely was. But if mail in ballots are done right its a great system.

So just got this text message about my mail in ballot.

Edward D, This is a message from Lake County Elections. Your Vote-by-Mail ballot for the upcoming 2022 General Election has been mailed. Questions? Email mailballots@lakevotes.gov or call (352) 343-9734

Pretty easy to keep track of.

Are you also tracking all of the fraudulent ballots you mailed?

I'm trying but I only have 10 fingers.

 

[BladeRunner]

lol. I so love this. “Many experts feel”, “lots of people are saying”, “many people have told me”….. “hypothesize”. Lol. I laugh because it’s legitimately funny. It’s funny not just because they have fully adopted the Trump vernacular but because the exact same people using vague empty statements where they literally use words that equate to “guessing” are the exact same people that have problem with Anonymous or unnamed sources. You literally can’t make this stuff up man.

why - in your opinion - does the left/liberal side completely reject and understand how the right/conservative side see's/feels about elections/mail in ballots ?

honest answer please

Hey buddy, I'm probably as conservative as you are maybe more so being I'm an old fart.

I've got to say Mail in ballots in Florida are not a problem for the most part. Yes sometimes there are a few issues in S. Florida but we are used to that(they can't seem to get out of their own way down there)it's usually rectified right away.

Maybe some of the other states should look into how we do it in Florida. It's not as bad as you think. I'm not saying there was no chicanery going on in other states because there definitely was. But if mail in ballots are done right its a great system.

So just got this text message about my mail in ballot.

Edward D, This is a message from Lake County Elections. Your Vote-by-Mail ballot for the upcoming 2022 General Election has been mailed. Questions? Email mailballots@lakevotes.gov or call (352) 343-9734

Pretty easy to keep track of.

Are you also tracking all of the fraudulent ballots you mailed?

I'm trying but I only have 10 fingers.

Can't you just identify as having 20 fingers to speed up the process?

 

[The Commish]

lol. I so love this. “Many experts feel”, “lots of people are saying”, “many people have told me”….. “hypothesize”. Lol. I laugh because it’s legitimately funny. It’s funny not just because they have fully adopted the Trump vernacular but because the exact same people using vague empty statements where they literally use words that equate to “guessing” are the exact same people that have problem with Anonymous or unnamed sources. You literally can’t make this stuff up man.

why - in your opinion - does the left/liberal side completely reject and understand how the right/conservative side see's/feels about elections/mail in ballots ?

honest answer please

Hey buddy, I'm probably as conservative as you are maybe more so being I'm an old fart.

I've got to say Mail in ballots in Florida are not a problem for the most part. Yes sometimes there are a few issues in S. Florida but we are used to that(they can't seem to get out of their own way down there)it's usually rectified right away.

Maybe some of the other states should look into how we do it in Florida. It's not as bad as you think. I'm not saying there was no chicanery going on in other states because there definitely was. But if mail in ballots are done right its a great system.

So just got this text message about my mail in ballot.

Edward D, This is a message from Lake County Elections. Your Vote-by-Mail ballot for the upcoming 2022 General Election has been mailed. Questions? Email mailballots@lakevotes.gov or call (352) 343-9734

Pretty easy to keep track of.

Careful GB. Youre gonna be labeled a crazy commie pinko leftist if you keep singing the praises of mail-in voting.

 

[rustycolts]

lol. I so love this. “Many experts feel”, “lots of people are saying”, “many people have told me”….. “hypothesize”. Lol. I laugh because it’s legitimately funny. It’s funny not just because they have fully adopted the Trump vernacular but because the exact same people using vague empty statements where they literally use words that equate to “guessing” are the exact same people that have problem with Anonymous or unnamed sources. You literally can’t make this stuff up man.

why - in your opinion - does the left/liberal side completely reject and understand how the right/conservative side see's/feels about elections/mail in ballots ?

honest answer please

Hey buddy, I'm probably as conservative as you are maybe more so being I'm an old fart.

I've got to say Mail in ballots in Florida are not a problem for the most part. Yes sometimes there are a few issues in S. Florida but we are used to that(they can't seem to get out of their own way down there)it's usually rectified right away.

Maybe some of the other states should look into how we do it in Florida. It's not as bad as you think. I'm not saying there was no chicanery going on in other states because there definitely was. But if mail in ballots are done right its a great system.

So just got this text message about my mail in ballot.

Edward D, This is a message from Lake County Elections. Your Vote-by-Mail ballot for the upcoming 2022 General Election has been mailed. Questions? Email mailballots@lakevotes.gov or call (352) 343-9734

Pretty easy to keep track of.

Careful GB. Youre gonna be labeled a crazy commie pinko leftist if you keep singing the praises of mail-in voting.

I've been called worse. I was once called obtuse and my wife called me late for supper the other day. Plus there is no way I can bend more than 90 degrees.

 

[Navin Johnson]

lol. I so love this. “Many experts feel”, “lots of people are saying”, “many people have told me”….. “hypothesize”. Lol. I laugh because it’s legitimately funny. It’s funny not just because they have fully adopted the Trump vernacular but because the exact same people using vague empty statements where they literally use words that equate to “guessing” are the exact same people that have problem with Anonymous or unnamed sources. You literally can’t make this stuff up man.

why - in your opinion - does the left/liberal side completely reject and understand how the right/conservative side see's/feels about elections/mail in ballots ?

honest answer please

Hey buddy, I'm probably as conservative as you are maybe more so being I'm an old fart.

I've got to say Mail in ballots in Florida are not a problem for the most part. Yes sometimes there are a few issues in S. Florida but we are used to that(they can't seem to get out of their own way down there)it's usually rectified right away.

Maybe some of the other states should look into how we do it in Florida. It's not as bad as you think. I'm not saying there was no chicanery going on in other states because there definitely was. But if mail in ballots are done right its a great system.

So just got this text message about my mail in ballot.

Edward D, This is a message from Lake County Elections. Your Vote-by-Mail ballot for the upcoming 2022 General Election has been mailed. Questions? Email mailballots@lakevotes.gov or call (352) 343-9734

Pretty easy to keep track of.

Are you also tracking all of the fraudulent ballots you mailed?

Yes. I was able to track all seven of mine.

 

[Binky The Doormat]

I rarely come in this forum but saw this on twitter today from Frank Zappa and it's so on point I thought I'd share.

https://twitter.com/jasonbaum/status/1560171739086311425

 

[2Squirrels1Nut]

I rarely come in this forum but saw this on twitter today from Frank Zappa and it's so on point I thought I'd share.

https://twitter.com/jasonbaum/status/1560171739086311425

Wow. Nailed it.

 

[Amused to Death]

I rarely come in this forum but saw this on twitter today from Frank Zappa and it's so on point I thought I'd share.

https://twitter.com/jasonbaum/status/1560171739086311425

His '88 tour devoted a large portion of the show towards the GOP, from Nixon through the Reagan & Bush administrations. His thoughts regarding the theology movement was due to influences by Pat Robertson and the popularity of televangelism* within the Republican party. He was also highly critical of the PMRC and Tipper Gore. Frank, Dee Snider, and John Denver testified in front of a committee in protest of the policies pushed by the PMRC.

*His parody of Jimmy Swaggart getting busted with a hooker is great, sung to the tunes of Norwegian Wood, Lucy in the Sky w/Diamonds, Strawberry Fields (the Texas Motel Medley).

 

[BladeRunner]

I rarely come in this forum but saw this on twitter today from Frank Zappa and it's so on point I thought I'd share.

https://twitter.com/jasonbaum/status/1560171739086311425

Yeah, okay. This coming from the side of the aisle that has LITERAL Socialists and Marxists in their party.

The Fascist Around Every Corner™ doomsday screams are simply a smoke screen to cover up the fact that things are moving further LEFT, not right.

 

[BladeRunner]

I rarely come in this forum but saw this on twitter today from Frank Zappa and it's so on point I thought I'd share.

https://twitter.com/jasonbaum/status/1560171739086311425

Wow. Nailed it.

Well, if what you mean by "Nailed it" is he's completely wrong then, yes, he "nailed it".

 

[Alex P Keaton]

I rarely come in this forum but saw this on twitter today from Frank Zappa and it's so on point I thought I'd share.

https://twitter.com/jasonbaum/status/1560171739086311425

Yeah, okay. This coming from the side of the aisle that has LITERAL Socialists and Marxists in their party.

The Fascist Around Every Corner™ doomsday screams are simply a smoke screen to cover up the fact that things are moving further LEFT, not right.

Well, some of us want the country moving to the left…..