Election Deniers Are Bad, Right? (2 Viewers)

[massraider]

The Democrats assault on our democracy after the 2016 election was the number one cause of the events of January 6th. There was so much pent up anger over how they undermined the lawful election of Donald Trump it was bound to spill over

If you had any shame or self awareness whatsoever, you wouldn't even come near this thread.

Awful post. I understand this thread is owning your side and it’s tough to see, but personal attacks are not good. Be better.

Be better. Take your own advice

 

[SoBeDad]

The biggest election denier in 2016 was ... Donald Trump.

 

[(HULK)]

The biggest election denier in 2016 was ... Donald Trump.

Yes. I remember him claiming fraud as he thought he won the popular vote too and couldn't admit he didn't.

 

[Captain Cranks]

Thanks for the discussion on this.

I did not remember or see many of the clips from the high-profile folks in the video claiming the 2016 election was illegitimate or stolen. https://youtu.be/uoMfIkz7v6s

I was surprised by the videos so I asked the question here to see how others felt. The responses were super helpful. Thanks.

I'll let y'all take it from here.

That video is pretty damning and does show the hypocrisy of the left to a degree. However, I think you have to be careful of pushing a false equivalence here.

 

[SoBeDad]

The biggest election denier in 2016 was ... Donald Trump.

Yes. I remember him claiming fraud as he thought he won the popular vote too and couldn't admit he didn't.

That's why it's disingenuous to blame the 2020 election deniers on anyone but Trump.

 

[Rich Conway]

Thanks for the discussion on this.

I did not remember or see many of the clips from the high-profile folks in the video claiming the 2016 election was illegitimate or stolen. https://youtu.be/uoMfIkz7v6s

I was surprised by the videos so I asked the question here to see how others felt. The responses were super helpful. Thanks.

I'll let y'all take it from here.

You've now posted the same link several times, but you refuse to discuss the many legitimate responses you've received. To me, it comes across as disingenuous, as if you're not really interested in the answer to the question you keep asking.

 

[GoBirds]

I was shocked when the deniers went as far as making up Russia conspiracies and all kinds of off the wall excuses instead of owning it. I think it is bad and really am hoping they behave better when the upcoming elections oust the Dems that are doing nothing.

 

[jon_mx]

is calling Trump illegitimate the same thing as not accepting the results of the election?

People forget how violent protests were when Trump was elected. It was like January 6 times 50 with violent protests going on in cities across the US. You are really splitting hairs by trying to differentiate between illegitimate and stolen.

When you have elections it is natural that a lot of people are not going to like the results. This is not a threat to America and what we stand for. Protests and being able to freely express our opinions are the very foundation of what this country was founded on. People questioning election results (whether they call it illegitimate or stolen) are not a threat to this Republic.

What is a threat is the demonzation of one side as an excuse to shutdown free speech by arresting people for nonviolent actions, targeting political enemies under the guise of minor violations of the law, raiding the homes of unfriendly media, deplatforming individuals for 'hate' speech, weaponizing the FBI/DOJ by declaring Republicans as our biggest threat. Biden actions are much closer to fascism than the Trump supporters he puts the fascist label on and are by far the biggest threat our freedoms we face. If you don't stand up for speech, you don't stand up for a free society.

Tell me you have no clue about 1/6 without telling me you have no clue about 1/6.

I know exactly what January 6th was, and so did the fbi long before it happened. You could not of had less security at an event than was present that day. All they had to do was to have enough security to prevent a surge of about 20 people who they knew had plans and were closely monitoring. They could of even had arrested them before hand if they had really thought it was that dangerous.

 

[knowledge dropper]

I was shocked when the deniers went as far as making up Russia conspiracies and all kinds of off the wall excuses instead of owning it. I think it is bad and really am hoping they behave better when the upcoming elections oust the Dems that are doing nothing.

I doubt it. Prepare for another pink hat parade where they threaten to blow up Republicans if they lose.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Why do you stay silent until you can both sides something? The country could use people like you speaking out about the threats it faces, but when the only time you talk is to show that there are crazy people on both sides (something no one denies -- it's a matter of degree) it has the effect of making the events equivalent. And they just aren't.

 

[roadkill1292]

This is indeed more both sides nonsense characteristic of this board.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Why do you stay silent until you can both sides something? The country could use people like you speaking out about the threats it faces, but when the only time you talk is to show that there are crazy people on both sides (something no one denies -- it's a matter of degree) it has the effect of making the events equivalent. And they just aren't.

The only difference is you support one side over the other. Same as always around here

 

[Amused to Death]

Then video clips here: https://youtu.be/uoMfIkz7v6s

I wonder how many of those clips were a response to the GOP investigation netting 37 convictions and 10 instances of obstruction committed by the president in relation to Russian interference into the 2016 election?

It has been proven, by Republicans, that the Russians interfered. Not hacked into voting machines or altered vote counts, but did interfere. So far, nothing remotely resembling what Republicans and Trump continue to promote happened in 2020.

 

[GoBirds]

Why do you stay silent until you can both sides something? The country could use people like you speaking out about the threats it faces, but when the only time you talk is to show that there are crazy people on both sides (something no one denies -- it's a matter of degree) it has the effect of making the events equivalent. And they just aren't.

The only difference is you support one side over the other. Same as always around here

They hate when their echo is interrupted.

 

[jon_mx]

This is indeed more both sides nonsense characteristic of this board.

And it should be about both sides, ubtil the left starts viewing the other side as something besides animals while ignoring the gross abuses on their sides because they are saints. I am so sick of the leftist bigots who can't view any issue outside of their bigotted lens.

 

[GoBirds]

This is indeed more both sides nonsense characteristic of this board.

And it should be about both sides, ubtil the left starts viewing the other side as something besides animals while ignoring the gross abuses on their sides because they are saints. I am so sick of the leftist bigots who can't view any issue outside of their bigotted lens.

They’ve reminded everyone who they are and will be voted out accordingly in the upcoming elections.

 

[FairWarning]

Thanks for the discussion on this.

I did not remember or see many of the clips from the high-profile folks in the video claiming the 2016 election was illegitimate or stolen. https://youtu.be/uoMfIkz7v6s

I was surprised by the videos so I asked the question here to see how others felt. The responses were super helpful. Thanks.

I'll let y'all take it from here.

That’s because they all moved to Canada.

 

[knowledge dropper]

This is indeed more both sides nonsense characteristic of this board.

And it should be about both sides, ubtil the left starts viewing the other side as something besides animals while ignoring the gross abuses on their sides because they are saints. I am so sick of the leftist bigots who can't view any issue outside of their bigotted lens.

They’ve reminded everyone who they are and will be voted out accordingly in the upcoming elections.

Hopefully. Like many patriots, I am looking into volunteering to monitor a drop box for the midterm elections to fortify our election process.

 

[McBokonon]

Aw shucks, gee willickers you guys, the riots on 1/6 were bad, right? But did you see this video of liberals yelling at a guy in a restaurant? I hadn’t seen this before and wondered what you thought about it? I’m interested in your thoughts because boy howdy it was just new to me and my conservative friends were discussing it. Anyway, gonna just drop this stinkbomb here and disengage. Bye!

 

[Mitchie]

I was shocked when the deniers went as far as making up Russia conspiracies and all kinds of off the wall excuses instead of owning it. I think it is bad and really am hoping they behave better when the upcoming elections oust the Dems that are doing nothing.

Would you be shocked to learn it wasn't a conspiracy?

RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE IN 2016 U.S. ELECTIONS | Federal Bureau of Investigation

CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT AN OFFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED STATES; FALSE REGISTRATION OF A DOMAIN NAME; AGGRAVATED IDENTITY THEFT; CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT MONEY LAUNDERING

www.fbi.gov

 

[timschochet]

Interesting that we’ve now moved beyond whataboutism to actually blaming Democrats for 1/6

 

[The Dude]

We are getting into another weird semantics discussion. What did she mean by "illegitimate"? She didn't say fraudulent. Context might show she was referring to Russian bots on social media who influenced voters with misleading and false claims about her (again we need context here to see what she was talking about out, not some 5 second sound bite).

Not really. You said, "I don't remember Hillary, Pelosi or any other high-profile Democrat saying that the results were fraudulent. None."

Yesterday, I would have agreed with you.

Then I saw a video with a bunch of video clips of Hillary Clinton saying the election was illegitimate. https://youtu.be/uoMfIkz7v6s You can try to deflect or dismiss or call that propaganda. But it seemed interesting to me.

Illegitimate does not mean the same thing as fraudulent, the words are not synonymous. Again, we need to see the context rather than just react from an isolated 5 second clip.

You seem to gloss over the dozens of claims Russia hacked the votes?

Link

I believe this is the source of the majority of the “hacked” language of the election by people.

That report was from 2020. The 'hacked' clips are all from before that.

This had been under investigation and talked about, leaked since 2017. What is linked in that story was concluded after 3 years of investigations, interviews by a Republican lead Intelligence Committee.

It's irrelevant. Did you even watch the video??? By mid-December 2017, more than HALF of Democratic voters thought the election had literally been hacked by the Russians and that Trump hadn't really won. They thought that because the bulk of the political left of this country had spent 5 weeks freaking out about the results of the election. There were calls for electors NOT to certify the results. This was unprecedented in modern times, at least during the last 100 years (probably longer).
How can you all pretend this didn't happen? Am I the only one with a memory greater than that of a fruit fly? Regardless, even if you say you don't remember, THE EVIDENCE IS EVERYWHERE. You can say the video takes those quotes out of context, but you're free to go back and search any of them more deeply. But let me save you the time, because I DO remember: the left crapped all over the results of the 2016 election and cast doubt on the American electoral process for years. If you think 2020 was even worse, fine, but that doesn't excuse what transpired in the years leading up to Jan. 6th. And my money says 2024 will be even worse. The only way through this is to admit this type of behavior is gross. All those pretending it didn't happen post 2016 will be culpable when it's even worse next time.

We are getting into another weird semantics discussion. What did she mean by "illegitimate"? She didn't say fraudulent. Context might show she was referring to Russian bots on social media who influenced voters with misleading and false claims about her (again we need context here to see what she was talking about out, not some 5 second sound bite).

Not really. You said, "I don't remember Hillary, Pelosi or any other high-profile Democrat saying that the results were fraudulent. None."

Yesterday, I would have agreed with you.

Then I saw a video with a bunch of video clips of Hillary Clinton saying the election was illegitimate. https://youtu.be/uoMfIkz7v6s You can try to deflect or dismiss or call that propaganda. But it seemed interesting to me.

Illegitimate does not mean the same thing as fraudulent, the words are not synonymous. Again, we need to see the context rather than just react from an isolated 5 second clip.

You seem to gloss over the dozens of claims Russia hacked the votes?

Inside story: How Russians hacked the Democrats' emails

An Associated Press investigation into the digital break-ins that disrupted the 2016 presidential contest shows that the hackers executed an all-out blitz across the Democratic Party.

apnews.com

No one in that video was saying Russia hacked the votes. They're referring to this.

As a former propagandist for this country, I gotta hand it the creators of this video, it's highly effective at getting people to believe something that simply isn't true.

Boom goes the dynamite

 

[knowledge dropper]

I was shocked when the deniers went as far as making up Russia conspiracies and all kinds of off the wall excuses instead of owning it. I think it is bad and really am hoping they behave better when the upcoming elections oust the Dems that are doing nothing.

Would you be shocked to learn it wasn't a conspiracy?

RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE IN 2016 U.S. ELECTIONS | Federal Bureau of Investigation

CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT AN OFFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED STATES; FALSE REGISTRATION OF A DOMAIN NAME; AGGRAVATED IDENTITY THEFT; CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT MONEY LAUNDERING

www.fbi.gov

They weren’t successful.

 

[moleculo]

then it's pretty hard to say the 2016 Democrat reaction is the same as the 2020 Republican reaction.

I think this is an important point.

I don't know how many are trying to say they're the same. I'm certainly not.

My point was I did not realize so many ultra high profile people said repeatedly the 2016 election results were illegitimate. https://youtu.be/uoMfIkz7v6s

That was legit surprising to me to see the video clips.

"Russia hacked the election" <> "The election was illegitimate".

It's true that Russia ran a lot of fake news and social media campaigning in 2016, with the clear goal of electing Trump. That happened, and it's not debatable. That is the factual basis for the " hacked" claim. IIRC, no serious people claimed that Russia flipped votes or the results were illegitimate.

If you re-watch the video, it's mostly Hillary and a bunch of nobody's claiming illegitimacy. I mean, shame on Hillary. It was wrong of her to claim that then.

 

[massraider]

I mean, shame on Hillary. It was wrong of her to claim that then

She shouldn't have even been the candidate.

 

[Battersbox]

We are getting into another weird semantics discussion. What did she mean by "illegitimate"? She didn't say fraudulent. Context might show she was referring to Russian bots on social media who influenced voters with misleading and false claims about her (again we need context here to see what she was talking about out, not some 5 second sound bite).

Not really. You said, "I don't remember Hillary, Pelosi or any other high-profile Democrat saying that the results were fraudulent. None."

Yesterday, I would have agreed with you.

Then I saw a video with a bunch of video clips of Hillary Clinton saying the election was illegitimate. https://youtu.be/uoMfIkz7v6s You can try to deflect or dismiss or call that propaganda. But it seemed interesting to me.

Illegitimate does not mean the same thing as fraudulent, the words are not synonymous. Again, we need to see the context rather than just react from an isolated 5 second clip.

You seem to gloss over the dozens of claims Russia hacked the votes?

Link

I believe this is the source of the majority of the “hacked” language of the election by people.

That report was from 2020. The 'hacked' clips are all from before that.

This had been under investigation and talked about, leaked since 2017. What is linked in that story was concluded after 3 years of investigations, interviews by a Republican lead Intelligence Committee.

It's irrelevant. Did you even watch the video??? By mid-December 2017, more than HALF of Democratic voters thought the election had literally been hacked by the Russians and that Trump hadn't really won. They thought that because the bulk of the political left of this country had spent 5 weeks freaking out about the results of the election. There were calls for electors NOT to certify the results. This was unprecedented in modern times, at least during the last 100 years (probably longer).
How can you all pretend this didn't happen? Am I the only one with a memory greater than that of a fruit fly? Regardless, even if you say you don't remember, THE EVIDENCE IS EVERYWHERE. You can say the video takes those quotes out of context, but you're free to go back and search any of them more deeply. But let me save you the time, because I DO remember: the left crapped all over the results of the 2016 election and cast doubt on the American electoral process for years. If you think 2020 was even worse, fine, but that doesn't excuse what transpired in the years leading up to Jan. 6th. And my money says 2024 will be even worse. The only way through this is to admit this type of behavior is gross. All those pretending it didn't happen post 2016 will be culpable when it's even worse next time.

We are getting into another weird semantics discussion. What did she mean by "illegitimate"? She didn't say fraudulent. Context might show she was referring to Russian bots on social media who influenced voters with misleading and false claims about her (again we need context here to see what she was talking about out, not some 5 second sound bite).

Not really. You said, "I don't remember Hillary, Pelosi or any other high-profile Democrat saying that the results were fraudulent. None."

Yesterday, I would have agreed with you.

Then I saw a video with a bunch of video clips of Hillary Clinton saying the election was illegitimate. https://youtu.be/uoMfIkz7v6s You can try to deflect or dismiss or call that propaganda. But it seemed interesting to me.

Illegitimate does not mean the same thing as fraudulent, the words are not synonymous. Again, we need to see the context rather than just react from an isolated 5 second clip.

You seem to gloss over the dozens of claims Russia hacked the votes?

Inside story: How Russians hacked the Democrats' emails

An Associated Press investigation into the digital break-ins that disrupted the 2016 presidential contest shows that the hackers executed an all-out blitz across the Democratic Party.

apnews.com

No one in that video was saying Russia hacked the votes. They're referring to this.

As a former propagandist for this country, I gotta hand it the creators of this video, it's highly effective at getting people to believe something that simply isn't true.

Question: how do you account for the poll which had greater than 50% of Democratic voters saying they believed Russia had hacked our voting process? That poll was conducted in mid-December 2016. Where did those poll respondents get that idea? Heck, I bet you if you conducted that exact poll today, you'd still get a sizable number who believe that.
Maybe no on in that video was saying explicitly that Russia hacked the votes, but you know dang well they were fine if the populace came away with that impression.

Can I get a link to this poll? On my phone and hard to find it if it's already in this thread somewhere

It's highlighted in the video. But I found a tweet which refers to it with a pic of the results. The YouGov/Economist site which appears to archive these polls has a subscription model.

https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/815256370958237696

 

[moleculo]

It was always a slippery slope (not the fallacy because there is no slippery slope fallacy) that we'd wind up where we are with the losing side of the political spectrum, but what the Democrats did in 2016 and what Republicans did in the aftermath of 2020 are two very different things.

It's also taken under advisement by me that my friends who are still in the political game told me that it didn't matter in who won in 2020 -- the other side would not have viewed the win as legitimate. And this is the layperson, the populace, not the fomenters and progenitors of dissent that work for the parties. My friend who does serious polling work for his own politics and polling-driven start-up firm (PhD from UVA in political science, M.A. in Intellectual History from U-Chicago) told me this three months before the election happened. He said it was the only thing he was certain of.

So that leads me to wonder? Did Trump and the Republican Party simply capitalize on this sentiment, or where they the fomenters of it? I think the problem lies in the Republican base. They're driving this. It's scary to watch the people demand this sort of nebulous accountability. We're now almost officially a low-trust society. Democracy dies shortly after trust.

Good point.

I would add that Trump was literally calling "fraud" before the election even happened - all his rants about how insecure mail voting is.

 

[Battersbox]

The comments in the video are “Russia hacked our election.” Those spinning this as clips really about Hillary’s emails are being disingenuous to put it mildly.

You clearly didn't see my post either.

The Colbert clip I found with context clearly demonstrates that, at least for him, Russia hacking the election referred to Russia hacking the DNC's emails and using them to influence the election. It's unambiguous. However, through the magic of editing out all context, you now think he was saying Russia changed votes via hacking. And that is what I like to call a very successful propaganda piece. It made you believe something false.

Colbert is straight satire and trash, most of us agree. Dig deeper.

 

[knowledge dropper]

then it's pretty hard to say the 2016 Democrat reaction is the same as the 2020 Republican reaction.

I think this is an important point.

I don't know how many are trying to say they're the same. I'm certainly not.

My point was I did not realize so many ultra high profile people said repeatedly the 2016 election results were illegitimate. https://youtu.be/uoMfIkz7v6s

That was legit surprising to me to see the video clips.

"Russia hacked the election" <> "The election was illegitimate".

It's true that Russia ran a lot of fake news and social media campaigning in 2016, with the clear goal of electing Trump. That happened, and it's not debatable. That is the factual basis for the " hacked" claim. IIRC, no serious people claimed that Russia flipped votes or the results were illegitimate.

If you re-watch the video, it's mostly Hillary and a bunch of nobody's claiming illegitimacy. I mean, shame on Hillary. It was wrong of her to claim that then.

All of the below made this comment in the video:

Joe Biden
Senator Warren
Vice President Harris
Last 2 Press Secretaries
Senator Schumer
Representative Schiff
Former President Carter

Nobody’s?

 

[Doug B]

I did not remember or see many of the clips from the high-profile folks in the video claiming the 2016 election was illegitimate or stolen. https://youtu.be/uoMfIkz7v6s

I never, ever want to get informed about anything via a YouTube video. Especially a selection of edited clips.

 

[dozer]

Interesting that we’ve now moved beyond whataboutism to actually blaming Democrats for 1/6

Next stop: “why are you treating us like subhumans?”

 

[Chaz McNulty]

Aw shucks, gee willickers you guys, the riots on 1/6 were bad, right? But did you see this video of liberals yelling at a guy in a restaurant? I hadn’t seen this before and wondered what you thought about it? I’m interested in your thoughts because boy howdy it was just new to me and my conservative friends were discussing it. Anyway, gonna just drop this stinkbomb here and disengage. Bye!

...but it's only my friends that are big Trump supporters. Truly guys, I really don't like him and would never support him. Honest.

 

[djmich]

The democrats behavior after the 2016 election was childish, wrong and bad for the country.

The two are of course similar but republicans 2020 behavior was significantly worse.

The difference is one massive liability named Trump, but unfortunately the infection remains and will for at least a while after he is gone.

I have no doubt democrats will handle the next loss poorly also.

Not sure what more there is to say, although I do think people forgot what was said in 2016.

 

[Desert_Power]

We're now almost officially a low-trust society. Democracy dies shortly after trust.

Well said. Something I've been noticing more recently, not just in politics. Maybe I'm just getting older though.

 

[Mitchie]

I was shocked when the deniers went as far as making up Russia conspiracies and all kinds of off the wall excuses instead of owning it. I think it is bad and really am hoping they behave better when the upcoming elections oust the Dems that are doing nothing.

Would you be shocked to learn it wasn't a conspiracy?

RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE IN 2016 U.S. ELECTIONS | Federal Bureau of Investigation

CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT AN OFFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED STATES; FALSE REGISTRATION OF A DOMAIN NAME; AGGRAVATED IDENTITY THEFT; CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT MONEY LAUNDERING

www.fbi.gov

They weren’t successful.

Russia's hack into the US election was surprisingly inexpensive, Mueller report shows

After reading special counsel Robert Mueller's report, experts noted how Russian internet trolls and hackers appeared to use limited resources in carrying out cyberattacks and online campaigns during the 2016 U.S. elections.

www.cnbc.com

 

[rockaction]

Well said. Something I've been noticing more recently, not just in politics. Maybe I'm just getting older though.

I just read -- about two months ago, really -- Francis Fukuyama's 1997 book Trust, so I'm a little bit on the lookout for that theme coming up in society. It's a decent enough book, and it reaffirmed the importance of social capital and volunteer associations based on trust and how they impact a country's stability while I was reading it.

 

[rockaction]

As far as trust goes in America, it's at a real problematic low. The press conference the other day with the dead Congresswoman as its subject was unreal. They can't even admit the mistake he made. It was just a flat out exercise in lying and malfeasance. Nobody trusts any word out of these peoples' mouths anymore, and that's a real problem for a republic. It manifested itself in many ways on both sides, so it's not just Biden and company I'm talking about -- this goes back to COVID and other such issues. It's really bad and leaves us with a paralyzed country.

 

[Chaz McNulty]

The democrats behavior after the 2016 election was childish, wrong and bad for the country.

The two are of course similar but republicans 2020 behavior was significantly worse.

The difference is one massive liability named Trump, but unfortunately the infection remains and will for at least a while after he is gone.

I have no doubt democrats will handle the next loss poorly also.

Not sure what more there is to say, although I do think people forgot what was said in 2016.

Were people saying these things on these boards about the 2016 election? I do not recall any threads about the legitimacy of the election. Do you?

And I am not talking about the Russian attempt to influence the election.

 

[(HULK)]

We are getting into another weird semantics discussion. What did she mean by "illegitimate"? She didn't say fraudulent. Context might show she was referring to Russian bots on social media who influenced voters with misleading and false claims about her (again we need context here to see what she was talking about out, not some 5 second sound bite).

Not really. You said, "I don't remember Hillary, Pelosi or any other high-profile Democrat saying that the results were fraudulent. None."

Yesterday, I would have agreed with you.

Then I saw a video with a bunch of video clips of Hillary Clinton saying the election was illegitimate. https://youtu.be/uoMfIkz7v6s You can try to deflect or dismiss or call that propaganda. But it seemed interesting to me.

Illegitimate does not mean the same thing as fraudulent, the words are not synonymous. Again, we need to see the context rather than just react from an isolated 5 second clip.

You seem to gloss over the dozens of claims Russia hacked the votes?

Link

I believe this is the source of the majority of the “hacked” language of the election by people.

That report was from 2020. The 'hacked' clips are all from before that.

This had been under investigation and talked about, leaked since 2017. What is linked in that story was concluded after 3 years of investigations, interviews by a Republican lead Intelligence Committee.

It's irrelevant. Did you even watch the video??? By mid-December 2017, more than HALF of Democratic voters thought the election had literally been hacked by the Russians and that Trump hadn't really won. They thought that because the bulk of the political left of this country had spent 5 weeks freaking out about the results of the election. There were calls for electors NOT to certify the results. This was unprecedented in modern times, at least during the last 100 years (probably longer).
How can you all pretend this didn't happen? Am I the only one with a memory greater than that of a fruit fly? Regardless, even if you say you don't remember, THE EVIDENCE IS EVERYWHERE. You can say the video takes those quotes out of context, but you're free to go back and search any of them more deeply. But let me save you the time, because I DO remember: the left crapped all over the results of the 2016 election and cast doubt on the American electoral process for years. If you think 2020 was even worse, fine, but that doesn't excuse what transpired in the years leading up to Jan. 6th. And my money says 2024 will be even worse. The only way through this is to admit this type of behavior is gross. All those pretending it didn't happen post 2016 will be culpable when it's even worse next time.

We are getting into another weird semantics discussion. What did she mean by "illegitimate"? She didn't say fraudulent. Context might show she was referring to Russian bots on social media who influenced voters with misleading and false claims about her (again we need context here to see what she was talking about out, not some 5 second sound bite).

Not really. You said, "I don't remember Hillary, Pelosi or any other high-profile Democrat saying that the results were fraudulent. None."

Yesterday, I would have agreed with you.

Then I saw a video with a bunch of video clips of Hillary Clinton saying the election was illegitimate. https://youtu.be/uoMfIkz7v6s You can try to deflect or dismiss or call that propaganda. But it seemed interesting to me.

Illegitimate does not mean the same thing as fraudulent, the words are not synonymous. Again, we need to see the context rather than just react from an isolated 5 second clip.

You seem to gloss over the dozens of claims Russia hacked the votes?

Inside story: How Russians hacked the Democrats' emails

An Associated Press investigation into the digital break-ins that disrupted the 2016 presidential contest shows that the hackers executed an all-out blitz across the Democratic Party.

apnews.com

No one in that video was saying Russia hacked the votes. They're referring to this.

As a former propagandist for this country, I gotta hand it the creators of this video, it's highly effective at getting people to believe something that simply isn't true.

Question: how do you account for the poll which had greater than 50% of Democratic voters saying they believed Russia had hacked our voting process? That poll was conducted in mid-December 2016. Where did those poll respondents get that idea? Heck, I bet you if you conducted that exact poll today, you'd still get a sizable number who believe that.
Maybe no on in that video was saying explicitly that Russia hacked the votes, but you know dang well they were fine if the populace came away with that impression.

Can I get a link to this poll? On my phone and hard to find it if it's already in this thread somewhere

It's highlighted in the video. But I found a tweet which refers to it with a pic of the results. The YouGov/Economist site which appears to archive these polls has a subscription model.

https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/815256370958237696

Thanks. Wish I could see the actual data. That seems... Inconsistent with what I remember of December 2016. I remember people having a feeling of disbelief for like a week and then moving on. Also, just a kinda general sampling complaint, I don't like polls that don't offer a middle ground option. I just feel like it creates an inaccurate picture of reality.

 

[(HULK)]

The comments in the video are “Russia hacked our election.” Those spinning this as clips really about Hillary’s emails are being disingenuous to put it mildly.

You clearly didn't see my post either.

The Colbert clip I found with context clearly demonstrates that, at least for him, Russia hacking the election referred to Russia hacking the DNC's emails and using them to influence the election. It's unambiguous. However, through the magic of editing out all context, you now think he was saying Russia changed votes via hacking. And that is what I like to call a very successful propaganda piece. It made you believe something false.

Colbert is straight satire and trash, most of us agree. Dig deeper.

He was included in the propaganda video. It was made to look like he was saying Russia hacked voting systems to change the votes but if you look at the original clip and the context, it is very clear that was not what he was saying. It doesn't matter if he's satire or a clown or a sheep rancher. What matters is the video is attempting, and succeeding, in taking things out of context to give it a new context that they want you to believe. As I said before, this is very effective propaganda.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Aw shucks, gee willickers you guys, the riots on 1/6 were bad, right? But did you see this video of liberals yelling at a guy in a restaurant? I hadn’t seen this before and wondered what you thought about it? I’m interested in your thoughts because boy howdy it was just new to me and my conservative friends were discussing it. Anyway, gonna just drop this stinkbomb here and disengage. Bye!

If you're talking about me for this, I'm sorry to hear you and the folks that liked your post think that little of me. I saw the video, was surprised by it as I didn't remember or see much of the clips and asked the question if others had seen it. I discussed a bit for a few pages and then thanked folks for the discussion this morning. If that's "gee willickers" or "boy howdy", I'm not sure what to say there.

 

[The Commish]

I think my main point was surprised that this many high profile people refused to accept the 2016 results. Did you remember this?

Thats likely because they pissed and moaned for a bit, then dropped it. Pelosi fit that bill and so did Hillary, but I expected that from her.....ridiculed both...it was dumb. What they didnt do was continue a two year narrative with dozens of lawsuits that failed miserably on their merits. It SHOULD tell us all we need to know, that all but one of those lawsuits didnt come close to arguing the claims being made to the public and the one that they won was a procedural one having nothing meaningful to do with election integrity.

 

[Rich Conway]

Aw shucks, gee willickers you guys, the riots on 1/6 were bad, right? But did you see this video of liberals yelling at a guy in a restaurant? I hadn’t seen this before and wondered what you thought about it? I’m interested in your thoughts because boy howdy it was just new to me and my conservative friends were discussing it. Anyway, gonna just drop this stinkbomb here and disengage. Bye!

If you're talking about me for this, I'm sorry to hear you and the folks that liked your post think that little of me. I saw the video, was surprised by it as I didn't remember or see much of the clips and asked the question if others had seen it. I discussed a bit for a few pages and then thanked folks for the discussion this morning. If that's "gee willickers" or "boy howdy", I'm not sure what to say there.

You keep repeating this but you ignore the many posts that are telling you these clips aren't what they appear. They are edited in an intentionally deceptive manner. If you want to have a real discussion, you have to acknowledge serious answers instead of just repeating yourself.

 

[McBokonon]

I saw the video, was surprised by it as I didn't remember or see much of the clips and asked the question if others had seen it.

Your thread title painted a false equivalency. If you don’t see how “Election Deniers are bad, right?” then linking to an edited Youtube video of 2016 clips of quotes that in no way is comparable to the driving GOP narrative that led to a riot in an attempt to overthrow the election, countless failed lawsuits, farcical audits, etc. - implies you see “both sides” as the same, and I know you love to do that, then I’m not sure what else to say. Maybe that wasn’t your intention, but hopefully you can see how it can EASILY be seen that way.

 

[Max Power]

You mean the situations are different? One had a 2.5 year special investigation and found nothing. The other locked everyone up and is holding prime time one sided hearings to demonize them.

Pretty similar reactions.

 

[The General]

As far as trust goes in America, it's at a real problematic low. The press conference the other day with the dead Congresswoman as its subject was unreal. They can't even admit the mistake he made. It was just a flat out exercise in lying and malfeasance. Nobody trusts any word out of these peoples' mouths anymore, and that's a real problem for a Republic. It manifested itself in many ways on both sides, so it's not just Biden and company I'm talking about -- this goes back to COVID and other such issues. It's really bad and leaves us with a paralyzed Republic.

I think this mistrust has always been there it’s just so much easier now to get information.

Social media is the perfect delivery system (see video in this thread) and that everyone is an expert on every topic in minutes because Google is so efficient. This mistrust has spread to general knowledge and expertise - a person who has spent decades on a topic and is capable of discussing in depth all aspects will be immediately discredited by some edited piece of video or clips without context by the layperson.

That we may have always been this way doesn‘t really help us out of this pickle but does give some hope that we are just in a dark period here and figuring out this new set of tools.

 

[FairWarning]

Aw shucks, gee willickers you guys, the riots on 1/6 were bad, right? But did you see this video of liberals yelling at a guy in a restaurant? I hadn’t seen this before and wondered what you thought about it? I’m interested in your thoughts because boy howdy it was just new to me and my conservative friends were discussing it. Anyway, gonna just drop this stinkbomb here and disengage. Bye!

If you're talking about me for this, I'm sorry to hear you and the folks that liked your post think that little of me. I saw the video, was surprised by it as I didn't remember or see much of the clips and asked the question if others had seen it. I discussed a bit for a few pages and then thanked folks for the discussion this morning. If that's "gee willickers" or "boy howdy", I'm not sure what to say there.

You keep repeating this but you ignore the many posts that are telling you these clips aren't what they appear. They are edited in an intentionally deceptive manner. If you want to have a real discussion, you have to acknowledge serious answers instead of just repeating yourself.

Which parts of the video do you take issue with?

What happens if Trump runs and legitimately wins, then what?

If he does run, who would be for doing whatever it takes for him to lose?

 

[djmich]

The democrats behavior after the 2016 election was childish, wrong and bad for the country.

The two are of course similar but republicans 2020 behavior was significantly worse.

The difference is one massive liability named Trump, but unfortunately the infection remains and will for at least a while after he is gone.

I have no doubt democrats will handle the next loss poorly also.

Not sure what more there is to say, although I do think people forgot what was said in 2016.

Were people saying these things on these boards about the 2016 election? I do not recall any threads about the legitimacy of the election. Do you?

And I am not talking about the Russian attempt to influence the election.

This is weird.

I didn’t say anything about people on this board, I didn’t see anyone from this board in joes video (although who knows)

That said, even if I was I’m not going to troll through 6yr old posts but yes I do remember the validity of the 2016 election being a thing…there was a lot buzz about russian disinformation. To Joes point, people have short memories.

 

[The General]

You mean the situations are different? One had a 2.5 year special investigation and found nothing. The other locked everyone up and is holding prime time one sided hearings to demonize them.

Pretty similar reactions.

I wouldn’t say the investigations found nothing.

To the Jan 6th hearings - one side refusing to participate, sabotaging the process, then complaining does ring a little hollow.

The tables will turn after Nov and Republicans will control the ability to decide what they will spend time on. I look forward to the critical analysis of the importance of the subjects of these investigations.

 

[dkp993]

You mean the situations are different? One had a 2.5 year special investigation and found nothing. The other locked everyone up and is holding prime time one sided hearings to demonize them.

Pretty similar reactions.

Max- your to good for a post like this. You know damn well “found nothing” is 100% incorrect. Did it get Trump? No. Found nothing? That’s ridiculous.

For your second point. Can you please remind me, as my memory isn’t great, what happened to the people who organized and stormed the capital hoping to disrupt the election proceedings on 1/6/2017. Also could you’d link Hillary’s speech that day sending the people to the capital. Thanks.