Expediting the death penalty? (1 Viewer)

[timschochet]

From what I’m reading today any gun reform deal that the Senate and Trump get together on is going to include an expedited death penalty provision- apparently this is a big deal for Pence and some other conservatives like Abbott in Texas. 

Do people generally believe that it takes too long to carry out the death penalty? Too many appeals? And will expediting it help to deter mass shooters? Or is this just an emotional reaction? 

 

[Da Guru]

From what I’m reading today any gun reform deal that the Senate and Trump get together on is going to include an expedited death penalty provision- apparently this is a big deal for Pence and some other conservatives like Abbott in Texas. 

Do people generally believe that it takes too long to carry out the death penalty? Too many appeals? And will expediting it help to deter mass shooters? Or is this just an emotional reaction? 

Let the situation dictate.  If a mass shooter/murderer  is actually captured and not killed why not expedite?

 

[jonessed]

It shouldn’t take decades to carry out a conviction.  

 

[Quint]

From what I’m reading today any gun reform deal that the Senate and Trump get together on is going to include an expedited death penalty provision- apparently this is a big deal for Pence and some other conservatives like Abbott in Texas. 

Do people generally believe that it takes too long to carry out the death penalty? Too many appeals? And will expediting it help to deter mass shooters? Or is this just an emotional reaction? 

iirc, Gavin pretty much cancelled the death penalty in CA for his term(s) as governor.

 

[joffer]

Let the situation dictate.  If a mass shooter/murderer  is actually captured and not killed why not expedite?

not concerned with that scenario, concerned with the inevitable time its inappropriately expedited.

 

[timschochet]

Let the situation dictate.  If a mass shooter/murderer  is actually captured and not killed why not expedite?

Interesting question. 

I’ve never been a huge fan of the death penalty but I think I would have no problem applying it to a mass shooter. And as you say, why not expedite? 

But we both know our system doesn’t work that way. All the appeals are there for a good reason, and we’re never going to have laws that apply differently based on the eyeball test. If we do what Pence and the other conservatives want, some innocent person somewhere is eventually going to be executed by the state because there weren’t enough appeals. That’s not acceptable to me. 

 

[Van Dyman]

People who favor expediting...is this supposed to be on a case-by-case basis or only for very specific circumstances or what? Even the best justice system in the world will occasionally produce some wrongful convictions. Haven't we seen cases where innocent people are locked up for years before it gets straightened out?

 

[timschochet]

iirc, Gavin pretty much cancelled the death penalty in CA for his term(s) as governor.

Well that leads to another question- I presume anything the Senate passes would regard the federal death penalty and would not have jurisdiction on the state’s, right? How many of these mass shooters commit federal crimes? 

 

[Da Guru]

not concerned with that scenario, concerned with the inevitable time its inappropriately expedited.

Mass shooter murders 25 people and is actually taken alive and is sentenced to death.  What do you feel would be the appropriate length of time before it is carried out?

 

[joffer]

Mass shooter murders 25 people and is actually taken alive and is sentenced to death.  What do you feel would be the appropriate length of time before it is carried out?

within a year seems reasonable. again, not the scenario that concerns me.

 

[Da Guru]

within a year seems reasonable. again, not the scenario that concerns me.

I agree within a year is reasonable. 

When I say scenario I mean if they catch a mass shooter/murderer in the act and there is zero doubt so why wait long. 

If there is a murder trial where there may be even a slight chance the verdict might have some flaws then give it more time.

 

[joffer]

I agree within a year is reasonable. 

When I say scenario I mean if they catch a mass shooter/murderer in the act and there is zero doubt so why wait long. 

If there is a murder trial where there may be even a slight chance the verdict might have some flaws then give it more time.

in our current system, it seems like it would very difficult to write a law that

a) would be effective at accomplishing what we both think is reasonable

b) not be used where it shouldn’t.

but hey, show me the law.  I could be wrong.

 

[whoknew]

No

 

[the rover]

Odd that the party whose narrative is that the problem with gun violence is not guns but mental health would want to expedite executions.  So either we're speeding the executions of mentally ill people, or we're admitting the narrative is a lie to deflect from actual gun control.

 

[jonessed]

Odd that the party whose narrative is that the problem with gun violence is not guns but mental health would want to expedite executions.  So either we're speeding the executions of mentally ill people, or we're admitting the narrative is a lie to deflect from actual gun control.

Are you conflating mental health issues with insanity?  I would wager the majority of felons have mental health issues.  That doesn’t mean their verdicts shouldn’t be carried out.

 

[Zow]

From what I’m reading today any gun reform deal that the Senate and Trump get together on is going to include an expedited death penalty provision- apparently this is a big deal for Pence and some other conservatives like Abbott in Texas. 

Do people generally believe that it takes too long to carry out the death penalty? Too many appeals? And will expediting it help to deter mass shooters? Or is this just an emotional reaction? 

Yes, many people generally believe that.  But, frankly, generally many people have false misconceptions of most facets of our criminal justice system. 

 

[Zow]

Are you conflating mental health issues with insanity?  I would wager the majority of felons have mental health issues.  That doesn’t mean their verdicts shouldn’t be carried out.

Generally, a mental health issue is a pretty significant mitigating factor and if can be show at the sentencing portion of a death penalty trial the juror should not vote to execute the defendant. 

This is, generally, consistent with the notion that the 8th amendment limits the implementation of the death penalty to premeditated murder where the mental state is a clear, evil mind choosing to commit the worst crime. 

 

[the rover]

Are you conflating mental health issues with insanity?  I would wager the majority of felons have mental health issues.  That doesn’t mean their verdicts shouldn’t be carried out.

Do you believe that due process dictates that the accused should be able to assert defenses relating to their mental health?

 

[jonessed]

Generally, a mental health issue is a pretty significant mitigating factor and if can be show at the sentencing portion of a death penalty trial the juror should not vote to execute the defendant. 

This is, generally, consistent with the notion that the 8th amendment limits the implementation of the death penalty to premeditated murder where the mental state is a clear, evil mind choosing to commit the worst crime. 

I suppose that depends on the seriousness of the mental health issue.  If they were not sentenced to death the expedited process wouldn’t impact them anyway.

I don’t think we should bump it up to a year, but decades leaves a lot of room for improvement.

 

[jonessed]

Do you believe that due process dictates that the accused should be able to assert defenses relating to their mental health?

Sure.

 

[the rover]

It seems completely incongruous that we would not expedite sentencing in any other scenarios except where we are imposing the harshest possible sentence.   You expedite a traffic ticket, not a death sentence.   This entire concept stands due process on its head.

 

[the rover]

Sure.

Great.   Then you can't expedite a death sentence.   Good talk.

 

[jonessed]

Great.   Then you can't expedite a death sentence.   Good talk.

Of course you can.  It doesn’t take decades to evaluate someone’s mental health during a crime.

 

[Zow]

Of course you can.  It doesn’t take decades to evaluate someone’s mental health during a crime.

It may take decades to exhaust due process as required by the 5th, 6th, 8th, and 14 Amendments. 

 

[jonessed]

It may take decades to exhaust due process as required by the 5th, 6th, 8th, and 14 Amendments. 

Maybe now.  I would like to see if we can expedite that legal process.

 

[the rover]

It may take decades to exhaust due process as required by the 5th, 6th, 8th, and 14 Amendments. 

Maybe now.  I would like to see if we can expedite that legal process.

or we can fix the 2nd and address the problem.

 

[KCitons]

It may take decades to exhaust due process as required by the 5th, 6th, 8th, and 14 Amendments. 

And that is why I will fight for the 2nd Amendment. I don't see a killers rights being more important than mine. 

 

[Zow]

Maybe now.  I would like to see if we can expedite that legal process.

Well, if humans became infallible that would probably help in that direction.  Until then, since there's a track record of executing innocent men, an expedited process is probably contrary to the constitution, due process, and justice. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

From what I’m reading today any gun reform deal that the Senate and Trump get together on is going to include an expedited death penalty provision- apparently this is a big deal for Pence and some other conservatives like Abbott in Texas. 

Do people generally believe that it takes too long to carry out the death penalty? Too many appeals? And will expediting it help to deter mass shooters? Or is this just an emotional reaction? 

Most mass shooters expect to die during the crime by police.  This would have 0 impact on them.  

 

[KCitons]

Most mass shooters expect to die during the crime by police.  This would have 0 impact on them.  

Don't your mass shooting stats include gang shootings? Would it have an impact on them?

 

[KarmaPolice]

Don't your mass shooting stats include gang shootings? Would it have an impact on them?

I was just coming in to do an ETA since I knew you were going to bust my balls on that.  The answer is still no.  

 

[KCitons]

I was just coming in to do an ETA since I knew you were going to bust my balls on that.  The answer is still no.  

Am I just suppose to take your word for this?

If the death penalty (and expediting the death penalty) doesn't deter mass shooters or gang members from shooting people, would any gun laws deter them either?

 

[KarmaPolice]

Am I just suppose to take your word for this?

If the death penalty (and expediting the death penalty) doesn't deter mass shooters or gang members from shooting people, would any gun laws deter them either?

Do you want me to do a research paper on it? 

Studies have shown that capital punishment doesn't deter crime, I cant imagine expediting the process makes a bit of difference there execept for quenching our desire for revenge.  

We have also seen less crime and death during the assault weapon ban and could take some info from other countries and their successes, so yes to that too.  

 

[KCitons]

Do you want me to do a research paper on it? 

Studies have shown that capital punishment doesn't deter crime, I cant imagine expediting the process makes a bit of difference there execept for quenching our desire for revenge.  

We have also seen less crime and death during the assault weapon ban and could take some info from other countries and their successes, so yes to that too.  

Experts disagree on this. 

Maybe it will deter, maybe it won't. All punishments are consequences for crimes committed. A life for a life seems fair. The victims didn't get to extend their time, why should the killer?

 

[KarmaPolice]

I expressed my thoughts in the other thread about that.  I believe we should try to be better than the killers, so I dont subscribe to the eye for an eye stuff.  Add it to the long list of things we won't agree on.  

 

[jonessed]

Well, if humans became infallible that would probably help in that direction.  Until then, since there's a track record of executing innocent men, an expedited process is probably contrary to the constitution, due process, and justice. 

I guess we’ll find out.

 

[Zow]

I guess we’ll find out.

What makes you say that? 

 

[kface]

i don't know why you want to kill anyone - why let them off the hook.  Let them rot in jail instead

 

[the rover]

i don't know why you want to kill anyone - why let them off the hook.  Let them rot in jail instead

Bloodlust or a real boner for the Code of Hammurabi.

 

[Sweet J]

Let the situation dictate.  If a mass shooter/murderer  is actually captured and not killed why not expedite?

Because of due process.  A fundamental tenant of our Constitution.  Good lord. 

 

[Sweet J]

I agree within a year is reasonable. 

When I say scenario I mean if they catch a mass shooter/murderer in the act and there is zero doubt so why wait long. 

If there is a murder trial where there may be even a slight chance the verdict might have some flaws then give it more time.

You know what.  You are right.  She's a witch!!!  BURN HER!!

 

[Sweet J]

And that is why I will fight for the 2nd Amendment. I don't see a killers rights being more important than mine. 

Does someone else want to tell him? 

 

[Zow]

Does someone else want to tell him? 

Nah you drew the short straw. 

 

[Sweet J]

And that is why I will fight for the 2nd Amendment. I don't see a killers rights being more important than mine. 

ok. . . . I mean. . . I don't want to overstate the obvious, but we can't give you rights without also giving rapist, murderers, tax cheats, fornicators, gamblers, ne'er-do-wells, scawflaws, fatties, skinnies, egg-heads, and other unsavory types rights too.  That's just how it works. 

 

[KCitons]

ok. . . . I mean. . . I don't want to overstate the obvious, but we can't give you rights without also giving rapist, murderers, tax cheats, fornicators, gamblers, ne'er-do-wells, scawflaws, fatties, skinnies, egg-heads, and other unsavory types rights too.  That's just how it works. 

I think you are misunderstanding my point.  This was Zow's statement. 

It may take decades to exhaust due process as required by the 5th, 6th, 8th, and 14 Amendments. 

Perhaps we should change the due process requirements of those Amendments for mass shooters caught in the act. 

It should be easy. People are suggesting we change 2nd Amendment. Right?

 

[Sheriff Bart]

I thought we needed to make abortion illegal, even if a woman is raped, because all life is precious?  

 

[the rover]

I thought we needed to make abortion illegal, even if a woman is raped, because all life is precious?  

That's a whole different set of lobbyists.   This is gun money we're talking about.   Evangelical money is down the hall.   

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Well, if humans became infallible that would probably help in that direction.  Until then, since there's a track record of executing innocent men, an expedited process is probably contrary to the constitution, due process, and justice. 

What if the accused admits guilt to a capital crime, waives appeal rights and requests the death penalty? I would be ok with an expedited process under those circumstances, assuming the prosecution agrees. 

 

[Sheriff Bart]

That's a whole different set of lobbyists.   This is gun money we're talking about.   Evangelical money is down the hall.   

Ah, that makes sense. 

Wait

 

[whoknew]

What if the accused admits guilt to a capital crime, waives appeal rights and requests the death penalty? I would be ok with an expedited process under those circumstances, assuming the prosecution agrees. 

Seems like that'd be ok in these jurisdictions.