Falcons OC blames Vick for passing game woes: (1 Viewer)

[cstu]

Vick is not a QB, glorified RB that they let throw the ball once in awhile. They want to make the team better, let Schabb QB and Vick play a slash role, which he could be unstoppable at. He's a faster Kordella...

on the NFL network last night Faulk suggested a QBBC committee. He said that he would have Schaub split time with Vick and that he'd have special packages for Vick.

Just an FYI,Schaub has started & finished 4 games for the Falcons.The Falcons have lost every single one of Schanb's starts.

Schuab has only started 2 games, one as a rookie. The second one the Falcons scored 31 and lost. Schuab threw for over 330 yards and three TDs in that game. The other team won on the last drive.Withh all the excuse you make for Vick you surely can find an excuse as to why Schuab lost that one.

My mistake. I was forgetting that last year Vick started the Minn game & Schaub only came on in relief.Schaub has started & finished 3 games for the Falcons, all of which have been losses.13 - 26 vs Saints in 200426 - 28 vs Seahawks in 200428 - 31 vs Patriots in 2005Schaub in 2004

+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| OPP  |  CMP  ATT   PYD  TD  INT |  RSH	YD  TD |+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| nor  |   17   41   188   0   2  |	4	21   0 || sea  |   14   22   133   1   1  |	2	 7   0 |+----------+--------------------------+----------------+

Schaub in 2005

+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| OPP  |  CMP  ATT   PYD  TD  INT |  RSH	YD  TD |+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| nwe  |   18   34   298   3   0  |	2	 3   0 |

So does 3 starts over 3 years prove that he's worthless? He lost to the '04 Hawks (9-7) division winner, and NE (10-6) division winner by a combined 5 points. How do you know Vick would have done any better?The point, to me at least, isn't whether Schaub is a better Qb because I have no idea but I do know that Vick is not a good passer and seems to have gotten worse, not better.

I was just pointing out that the Falcons have never won a game where Schaub was the starter.Most people who don't follow the Falcons closely, don't know that.

I hear ya. It's just that I've been in these discussions over the years and the "Vick supporter's" fall back is always that he wins. That answer has been quieted a bit recently due to his 11-10 record over the past 1 1/2 years.

The Falcons were looking like they were easily going to make the playoffs in the first half of the season last year at 6-2, but they finished the second half 2-6. They even had a chance to win the division with 3 games left, but went 0-3. As far as 2006, not many teams have a better record than the Falcons right now and their two losses have been against teams with winning records.

 

[Banger]

I think different posters here are arguing different things. I don't think anyone defending Vick has suggested that he is or even could be a great passer. If he could be an average passer, combining that with his running ability would make him an above average QB. Since Mora arrived, he has not been an average passer, thus he has not been an above average QB.But, as I posted earlier, there are many factors that go into how good of a passer any QB is. One is natural passing ability, and I think everyone is probably in agreement here that Vick is not a great natural passer. But other factors include the offensive scheme, the coaching, and the surrounding offensive talent. Unfortunately for Vick, none of those factors are helping him, they are hurting him. He would be a better passer with better coaching and/or in offense that fits his talents (which the WCO does not) and/or if he had better offensive teammates, in particular at the WR position.Does that make it everyone else's fault? Not entirely. Ultimately, it is Vick's "fault" that he isn't a better natural passer. But as an organization committed to Vick, it is Atlanta's responsibility to recognize his limitations and do what they can to lift him up, rather than drag him down... namely put him in an appropriate offense, give him good WRs, and give him better coaching.Those things are outside of Vick's control, they are in the organization's control. In year 2 under Reeves, Vick looked great, especially in the second half of the season, which was his first as a starter. And consider that everyone knew Vick would be somewhat raw at the start of his NFL career, considering he started only 2 seasons in college and was able to dominate in college without being a great passer, being great at reading defenses, etc. Considering that, he really looked good in 2002. His potential was unlimited at that point.I have posted this before, but let's actually look at his performance in 2002.First half of the season (Vick missed ~1.5 games):96/159 (60.4%), 1095 passing yards (6.88 ypa), 4 passing TDs, 1 interception48/362/4 rushingThat is 168 passing yards, 0.6 TDs, and less than 0.2 interceptions per gameSecond half of the season (8 games):135/262 (51.5%), 1841 passing yards (7.03 ypa), 12 passing TDs, 7 interceptions65/414/4 rushingThat's 230 passing yards, 1.5 TDs, and less than 1 interception per game. While maintaining his rushing from the first half. He regressed a bit from an efficiency standpoint compared to the first half of 2002, but got more done. I assume Reeves had him on a pretty conservative leash to start the season but gained confidence and opened things up.Over the course of 15 games, since Vick has never played 16, that second half would be 3450 passing yards, 22 passing TDs, and 15 interceptions. Combine that with his rushing ability and the effect he has on the defense, and he would clearly be one of the top handful of QBs in the NFL. Is projecting 8 games a foolproof method? Of course not, but it illustrates his potential as a passer and QB.So a valid question is: why did he not build on the performance in that season and get better, or at least maintain that level of play? Was it due to his injury the next season? Was 2002 a fluke, and he just played over his head?He is now in year 3 of the Mora regime and has clearly regressed from year 2. So why isn't the organization asking itself, what has changed, why has he regressed, and what can/should we do about it? He is the same guy with the same skills, and in fact has more game experience and thus should be improving, even if at a slow pace. So the organization shares in the "blame".

Good post. I think a big part of Vick's problem is now as opposed to then I posed above....My take is that the league has caught up with Vick. When he came out of college he was a phenom and teams didn't know how to contain him. After a few years and tons of tape, of what worked and what didn't, teams know how to contain now much more than they did early in his career. It's a constant chess match and good players have to learn what teams are doing to stop them and adjust. Vick's problem is that he's not learning or adjusting and is just doing the same thing over and over hoping for different results.

 

[-jb-]

Put Schaub and Vick in at the same time in a shotgun.

 

[Family Matters]

I live in Atlanta now so I get/have to watch all the games. The curious irony with Vick is this...the fact that he runs puts the defense on edge and pulls the linebackers up to the line to shadow him. This tends to leave a gap between the linebackers who moved closer to the line and the DBs who are covering the deep WRs. This is a great area to exploit and it is created because of Vick's running ability. Here's the irony; Vick can't make the touch pass. He can't drop the ball between the LBs and the DBs. The trajectory of his passes is so flat that he either overthrows the WR trying to get it over the LBs head, or he gets the ball knocked down by the LB before it ever gets to the WR.I really don't know how to fix this problem, but as someone already mentioned, saying that the offense is limited because of Vick's poor passing skills is stating the obvious.

This is a great and useful observation. On one hand his running creates opportunities that leaves the defense vulnerable. OTOH-Vick isn't able to do anything about it. Why? Because he's not a good passer. If he were, he'd be the best QB we've seen in a long time. If not the best.BTW-there a QB in college that may be the best combo of Vick the runner and a good passer with both touch and deep strike ability. He just may accomplish what Vick and some others could not but it remains to be seen. Anyone know who it is?

 

[John Mamula]

if Jenkins catches that pass, the Falcons win that game.

I did not see the game, but I've heard similar things from others - specificly that the WRs were dropping a lot of catchable passes. I don't think anyone would confuse Vick's throwing ability with Palmer's or Manning's, but, for those who saw the game, do you feel that the receivers were as responsible (or more) as Vick for the struggling passing game?

vick's passing is bad. the WRs are bad. it's a bad combination.

 

[Pip's Invitation]

This is on the coaches IMO.

What's the most important thing for success in the WCO? An ACCURATE quarterback.

Michael Vick is not, has never been, and never will be an accurate quarterback.

Therefore, if Vick is your starting quarterback, you do NOT implement the WCO. You implement a system that can take advantage of what he DOES do well.

Classic case of a coaching staff trying too hard to fit players to a scheme, rather than vice versa.

 

[ETM]

I'm a big Falcons fan and I've watched every Falcons game this year. The number of drops is easily in the double digits. Heck, Vick has had at least 6 tds dropped by his WRs and Crumpler. Roddy White seems to be the worst of the bunch. Why they haven't given Lelie a shot in the starting lineup is beyond me. Also, how does a guy like Vick get sacked 7 times in a game? The Falcons O-line are really good at run blocking, but they stink at pass blocking.

I'm a fan as well and have seen every game but I can't agree with you here. Yes, there have been a few drops but the majority of them have been when Vick has made a poor throw and only a miraculous reception could make a catch out of it. Agree with everyone else that only an idiot would expect Vick to do well in the west coast offense.

 

[Family Matters]

After reading the rest of the posts in this thread, it seems that there is a 50-50 split of those that like Vick and those that think he's great or at least good. I tend to fall into the the he's fun to watch run but I cringe when he tries to throw. I am not for or agianst him so I could care less. But as a fan and observer of the game the facts do not lie.

If I'm not mistaken the stats are scored by NFL scorers who are trained and paid to record their observations. Sure ther is some objectivity but they know what they're doing for the most part. We're mostly just fans and would not even begin to suggest I know more than they so I will stick with we do know and that's comparing the stats from 1 QB to another.

First off, let's agree with 1 thing for sure. If the passes Vick was throwing were catchable then his comp % would be higher. There is a reason his pass comp % is so low compared to the rest of the NFL. I do not care what system he's in or how many different receivers he's had the results are always the same for his career. Here are his career numbers:

53.8 comp %, 54 TD's and 42 INT's. Per game that's 154 yards, .85 TD's and .66 INT's per game. Over a 16 game season that equals 2464 yards, 13.6 TD's and 10.56 INT's. Lastly his passer rating is 75.0. For those that say the passer rating his heavily weighted to TD's, well duh. That's the objective of passing the ball is score TD's.

So noone can really argue that this year is an abberation. It's been poor production his enitre career, 63 games. I think we now know he's not very good at passing the ball. Here's a list of WR/TE's on ATL since Vick was drafted:

Jenkins

White

Crumpler

Lelie

Finneran

Pathon

D. White

Price

T.Edwards

Jefferson

W. Jackson

T. Martin

Mathis

Some of these guys were pretty good.

BTW-here are the comp % of the other QB's on his team:

2001-Chandler: 61.1

2001-Johnson: 60.0

2001-Vick: 44.2 23rd in points scored

2002-Johnson: 64.9

2002-Vick: 54.9 5th in points scored

2003- Johnson: 56.0

2003-Kittner: 38.6

2003- Vick: 50.0 20th in points scored

2004-Schaub: 47.1

2004-Vick: 56.4*(career best) 16th in points scored

2005-Schaub: 51.6

2005- Vick: 55.3 14th in points scored

2006- Vick: 50.4 26th in points scored

So you can see a trend of poor passing comp % and one by where he has digressed this year after showing some improvement. Worse, they've dropped in points scored and that's largely due to Vick.

Offseason notes: I read numerous reports that White and Jenkins had their best offseason to date and where expected to to have breakout performances. Vick had spent extra time with them because Crumpler was recovering from his surgery.

Vick stated that he was planning to abandon the passing game in favor of running more because that's what he does best. So by his own addmisson he says he's not a good passer. He made a decision to run more and it shows.

So feel free to defend Vick all you want. He is 1 demensional (he readily admits that) and cannot effectively pass the ball. He admits it, the stats admit it and finally I think as unbiased observers we too must admit it.

 

[The Royal Jack]

This is on the coaches IMO. What's the most important thing for success in the WCO? An ACCURATE quarterback. Michael Vick is not, has never been, and never will be an accurate quarterback.Therefore, if Vick is your starting quarterback, you do NOT implement the WCO. You implement a system that can take advantage of what he DOES do well. Classic case of a coaching staff trying too hard to fit players to a scheme, rather than vice versa.

When they Falcons invested big long term $ into Vick they should have accepted the fact that they were going to have to marry themselves to a scheme that suited Vick's abilities. They have adopted the WCO and this is not the best system for Vick, it is however the best system for Schaub. I suspect that team ownership is smitten with Schaub and something crazy could happen in the off season.

 

[Tau837]

My take is that the league has caught up with Vick. When he came out of college he was a phenom and teams didn't know how to contain him. After a few years and tons of tape, of what worked and what didn't, teams know how to contain now much more than they did early in his career. It's a constant chess match and good players have to learn what teams are doing to stop them and adjust. Vick's problem is that he's not learning or adjusting and is just doing the same thing over and over hoping for different results.

I totally agree with this. The thing is: why hasn't Vick progressed in his learning or adjusting along with the defenses he faces? IMO the answer has mostly to do with changing from Reeves to Mora, and the associated move to the WCO. And his WRs, while not very good in 2002, are probably collectively worse now.So I think my points and yours can both be true, as they are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Tau837]

This is on the coaches IMO. What's the most important thing for success in the WCO? An ACCURATE quarterback. Michael Vick is not, has never been, and never will be an accurate quarterback.Therefore, if Vick is your starting quarterback, you do NOT implement the WCO. You implement a system that can take advantage of what he DOES do well. Classic case of a coaching staff trying too hard to fit players to a scheme, rather than vice versa.

You either fit an offense around a QB or fit a QB into an offense. If you're talking about a journeyman QB, you fit him into the offense. Think Kitna here. If you're talking about a franchise QB, which can be defined by talent, contract, media hype, whatever you want, then you have to fit the offense to the QB.This is because the team will not be able to (salary cap) or willing to (for ticket sales, admitting they are wrong, etc.) easily get rid of the franchise QB. Once a team commits to a QB as a franchise QB, it is typically stuck with him for quite some time.And, besides, what causes a team to commit to a team as its franchise QB in the first place? Presumably, his particular set of talents/skills. Why make that commitment and then try to change him into a QB with a different set of talents/skills?

 

[Banger]

My take is that the league has caught up with Vick. When he came out of college he was a phenom and teams didn't know how to contain him. After a few years and tons of tape, of what worked and what didn't, teams know how to contain now much more than they did early in his career. It's a constant chess match and good players have to learn what teams are doing to stop them and adjust. Vick's problem is that he's not learning or adjusting and is just doing the same thing over and over hoping for different results.

I totally agree with this. The thing is: why hasn't Vick progressed in his learning or adjusting along with the defenses he faces? IMO the answer has mostly to do with changing from Reeves to Mora, and the associated move to the WCO. And his WRs, while not very good in 2002, are probably collectively worse now.So I think my points and yours can both be true, as they are not mutually exclusive.

When watching him in interviews and reading quotes in the paper I get the feeling that he doesn't think anything is his fault. Therefore, if you don't think there's anything wrong/aren't held accountable (he's been totally coddled and held on a throne since he's been in the league) then maybe you don't work as hard to overcome those "deficiencies" on the practice field and in film study. Maybe he's not smart enough to quickly identify what he's seeing, process it and react. Just theorizing....

 

[Banger]

This is on the coaches IMO. What's the most important thing for success in the WCO? An ACCURATE quarterback. Michael Vick is not, has never been, and never will be an accurate quarterback.Therefore, if Vick is your starting quarterback, you do NOT implement the WCO. You implement a system that can take advantage of what he DOES do well. Classic case of a coaching staff trying too hard to fit players to a scheme, rather than vice versa.

You either fit an offense around a QB or fit a QB into an offense. If you're talking about a journeyman QB, you fit him into the offense. Think Kitna here. If you're talking about a franchise QB, which can be defined by talent, contract, media hype, whatever you want, then you have to fit the offense to the QB.This is because the team will not be able to (salary cap) or willing to (for ticket sales, admitting they are wrong, etc.) easily get rid of the franchise QB. Once a team commits to a QB as a franchise QB, it is typically stuck with him for quite some time.And, besides, what causes a team to commit to a team as its franchise QB in the first place? Presumably, his particular set of talents/skills. Why make that commitment and then try to change him into a QB with a different set of talents/skills?

Agree with this totally. The West Coast offense does not seem like a good fit for Vick's skillset. With a talent like Vick you have to taylor your system to suit the unique abilities of that player. He's a totally unique player so you need a coach that's willing to think outside the box and let them use that ability to it's utmost.

 

[Bojang0301]

I live in Atlanta now so I get/have to watch all the games. The curious irony with Vick is this...the fact that he runs puts the defense on edge and pulls the linebackers up to the line to shadow him. This tends to leave a gap between the linebackers who moved closer to the line and the DBs who are covering the deep WRs. This is a great area to exploit and it is created because of Vick's running ability. Here's the irony; Vick can't make the touch pass. He can't drop the ball between the LBs and the DBs. The trajectory of his passes is so flat that he either overthrows the WR trying to get it over the LBs head, or he gets the ball knocked down by the LB before it ever gets to the WR.I really don't know how to fix this problem, but as someone already mentioned, saying that the offense is limited because of Vick's poor passing skills is stating the obvious.

This is a great and useful observation. On one hand his running creates opportunities that leaves the defense vulnerable. OTOH-Vick isn't able to do anything about it. Why? Because he's not a good passer. If he were, he'd be the best QB we've seen in a long time. If not the best.BTW-there a QB in college that may be the best combo of Vick the runner and a good passer with both touch and deep strike ability. He just may accomplish what Vick and some others could not but it remains to be seen. Anyone know who it is?

Troy Smith?

 

[Family Matters]

I live in Atlanta now so I get/have to watch all the games. The curious irony with Vick is this...the fact that he runs puts the defense on edge and pulls the linebackers up to the line to shadow him. This tends to leave a gap between the linebackers who moved closer to the line and the DBs who are covering the deep WRs. This is a great area to exploit and it is created because of Vick's running ability. Here's the irony; Vick can't make the touch pass. He can't drop the ball between the LBs and the DBs. The trajectory of his passes is so flat that he either overthrows the WR trying to get it over the LBs head, or he gets the ball knocked down by the LB before it ever gets to the WR.I really don't know how to fix this problem, but as someone already mentioned, saying that the offense is limited because of Vick's poor passing skills is stating the obvious.

This is a great and useful observation. On one hand his running creates opportunities that leaves the defense vulnerable. OTOH-Vick isn't able to do anything about it. Why? Because he's not a good passer. If he were, he'd be the best QB we've seen in a long time. If not the best.BTW-there a QB in college that may be the best combo of Vick the runner and a good passer with both touch and deep strike ability. He just may accomplish what Vick and some others could not but it remains to be seen. Anyone know who it is?

Troy Smith?

Yes. Now assuming he gets drafted and is the player I think he is then he could be that player.

 

[Da Guru]

Vick is a talented athlete, he just struggles to play the QB position. Vick would be better off in a slash type of role to better fit his skills. Like the Steelers used Kordell his first few year, and like they used Randel El. Vick is comparable to those guys.

 

[Gargoylez]

This is on the coaches IMO. What's the most important thing for success in the WCO? An ACCURATE quarterback. Michael Vick is not, has never been, and never will be an accurate quarterback.Therefore, if Vick is your starting quarterback, you do NOT implement the WCO. You implement a system that can take advantage of what he DOES do well. Classic case of a coaching staff trying too hard to fit players to a scheme, rather than vice versa.

I fully agree.

 

[Tau837]

If I'm not mistaken the stats are scored by NFL scorers who are trained and paid to record their observations. Sure ther is some objectivity but they know what they're doing for the most part. We're mostly just fans and would not even begin to suggest I know more than they so I will stick with we do know and that's comparing the stats from 1 QB to another.

Can't argue with this. But you're ignoring that some incompletions, while not drops, can be catches if the WR makes a play. And in most cases, other QBs' WRs make more of those plays than Vick's. So, while not drops, their lack of playmaking hurts him. As I have said previously, this isn't a blanket excuse, but it is part of the problem.Also, keep in mind the limited pass attempts in the Falcons' offense. If Atlanta receivers drop one pass per game, and fail to "make" two plays per game on other incompletions, that's 3 potential completions lost. Let's say the same is true for every team. But most teams pass much more often, so the impact of those 3 "lost" completions is greater to Atlanta.

First off, let's agree with 1 thing for sure. If the passes Vick was throwing were catchable then his comp % would be higher.

No, I cannot agree with that as a blanket statement. Everyone in this thread has generally agreed that Jenkins could have caught a TD last week, so that was a catchable ball, yet because he didn't catch it, Vick's completion percentage went down. This is a small example, but it illustrates that poor WR play can hurt a QB's completion percentage. So it doesn't follow that a low completion percentage is a result of the QB not throwing catchable passes. That is one factor that contributes to a low completion percentage.

Here are his career numbers:

53.8 comp %, 54 TD's and 42 INT's. Per game that's 154 yards, .85 TD's and .66 INT's per game. Over a 16 game season that equals 2464 yards, 13.6 TD's and 10.56 INT's. Lastly his passer rating is 75.0. For those that say the passer rating his heavily weighted to TD's, well duh. That's the objective of passing the ball is score TD's.

The problem with your method here is that you're not taking into account his low number of attempts, which affect compiled statistics. In 2002, he had 421 passing attempts, and threw for 2936/16/8 in 15 games. Not great, but not bad at all considering he added 777/8 rushing. Since Mora took over, Vick has averaged only 23.5 pass attempts per game, compared to the league average over that span of 32.1.And, just as important as number of attempts, is the passing situations. For example, the Steelers were great at putting Roethlisberger in favorable passing situations in the past couple of seasons. I don't think the Atlanta coaching staff has been as smart with Vick, which has resulted in him often passing in unfavorable situations.

It's been poor production his enitre career, 63 games.

This is false. I already pointed out that he did not perform poorly as a passer in 2002. Then he got injured and the offense and coaching staff changed.

Here's a list of WR/TE's on ATL since Vick was drafted:

Jenkins

White

Crumpler

Lelie - played

Finneran

Pathon - played 8 games for the Falcons

D. White

Price

T.Edwards - played 6 games for the Falcons

Jefferson

W. Jackson - played 7 games for the Falcons

T. Martin - played with Vick only in 2001, Vick's rookie year in which he attempted 113 passes

Mathis - played with Vick only in 2001, Vick's rookie year in which he attempted 113 passes

Some of these guys were pretty good.

Which ones were pretty good? I think it is fair to call Crumpler a pretty good TE. Who else that really bears on the discussion at hand (see comments embedded above)?I think Finneran is the best WR Vick has had. That sums up the quality of his WRs throughout his career right there.

BTW-here are the comp % of the other QB's on his team:

2001-Chandler: 61.1

2001-Johnson: 60.0 - 5 whole passing attempts... come on, you're just piling on here

2001-Vick: 44.2 23rd in points scored - 113 attempts as a rookie

2002-Johnson: 64.9 - 2 games with more than a few attempts--1 TD, 3 ints

2002-Vick: 54.9 5th in points scored - 16 TDs, 8 ints--see Johnson above... comp pct. isn't everything

2003- Johnson: 56.0 - 243 attempts, 8 TDs, 12 ints

2003-Kittner: 38.6 - 114 attempts, 2 TDs, 6 ints

2003- Vick: 50.0 20th in points scored - 100 attempts after coming back from injury - 4 TDs, 3 ints

2004-Schaub: 47.1

2004-Vick: 56.4*(career best) 16th in points scored

2005-Schaub: 51.6

2005- Vick: 55.3 14th in points scored

2006- Vick: 50.4 26th in points scored

So you can see a trend of poor passing comp % and one by where he has digressed this year after showing some improvement. Worse, they've dropped in points scored and that's largely due to Vick.

Independent of completion percentage, Vick was a rookie in 2001 and was clearly Atlanta's best QB in 2002 & 2003. More recently, many people want to say Schaub is better, but there is no way to fairly compare them at this point.

 

[Bojang0301]

I live in Atlanta now so I get/have to watch all the games. The curious irony with Vick is this...the fact that he runs puts the defense on edge and pulls the linebackers up to the line to shadow him. This tends to leave a gap between the linebackers who moved closer to the line and the DBs who are covering the deep WRs. This is a great area to exploit and it is created because of Vick's running ability. Here's the irony; Vick can't make the touch pass. He can't drop the ball between the LBs and the DBs. The trajectory of his passes is so flat that he either overthrows the WR trying to get it over the LBs head, or he gets the ball knocked down by the LB before it ever gets to the WR.I really don't know how to fix this problem, but as someone already mentioned, saying that the offense is limited because of Vick's poor passing skills is stating the obvious.

This is a great and useful observation. On one hand his running creates opportunities that leaves the defense vulnerable. OTOH-Vick isn't able to do anything about it. Why? Because he's not a good passer. If he were, he'd be the best QB we've seen in a long time. If not the best.BTW-there a QB in college that may be the best combo of Vick the runner and a good passer with both touch and deep strike ability. He just may accomplish what Vick and some others could not but it remains to be seen. Anyone know who it is?

Troy Smith?

Yes. Now assuming he gets drafted and is the player I think he is then he could be that player.

I would actually compare Smith to a smaller McNabb. He has amazed me with his development as a passer.

 

[Family Matters]

If I'm not mistaken the stats are scored by NFL scorers who are trained and paid to record their observations. Sure ther is some objectivity but they know what they're doing for the most part. We're mostly just fans and would not even begin to suggest I know more than they so I will stick with we do know and that's comparing the stats from 1 QB to another.

Can't argue with this. But you're ignoring that some incompletions, while not drops, can be catches if the WR makes a play. And in most cases, other QBs' WRs make more of those plays than Vick's. So, while not drops, their lack of playmaking hurts him. As I have said previously, this isn't a blanket excuse, but it is part of the problem.Also, keep in mind the limited pass attempts in the Falcons' offense. If Atlanta receivers drop one pass per game, and fail to "make" two plays per game on other incompletions, that's 3 potential completions lost. Let's say the same is true for every team. But most teams pass much more often, so the impact of those 3 "lost" completions is greater to Atlanta.

First off, let's agree with 1 thing for sure. If the passes Vick was throwing were catchable then his comp % would be higher.

No, I cannot agree with that as a blanket statement. Everyone in this thread has generally agreed that Jenkins could have caught a TD last week, so that was a catchable ball, yet because he didn't catch it, Vick's completion percentage went down. This is a small example, but it illustrates that poor WR play can hurt a QB's completion percentage. So it doesn't follow that a low completion percentage is a result of the QB not throwing catchable passes. That is one factor that contributes to a low completion percentage.

Here are his career numbers:

53.8 comp %, 54 TD's and 42 INT's. Per game that's 154 yards, .85 TD's and .66 INT's per game. Over a 16 game season that equals 2464 yards, 13.6 TD's and 10.56 INT's. Lastly his passer rating is 75.0. For those that say the passer rating his heavily weighted to TD's, well duh. That's the objective of passing the ball is score TD's.

The problem with your method here is that you're not taking into account his low number of attempts, which affect compiled statistics. In 2002, he had 421 passing attempts, and threw for 2936/16/8 in 15 games. Not great, but not bad at all considering he added 777/8 rushing. Since Mora took over, Vick has averaged only 23.5 pass attempts per game, compared to the league average over that span of 32.1.And, just as important as number of attempts, is the passing situations. For example, the Steelers were great at putting Roethlisberger in favorable passing situations in the past couple of seasons. I don't think the Atlanta coaching staff has been as smart with Vick, which has resulted in him often passing in unfavorable situations.

It's been poor production his enitre career, 63 games.

This is false. I already pointed out that he did not perform poorly as a passer in 2002. Then he got injured and the offense and coaching staff changed.

Here's a list of WR/TE's on ATL since Vick was drafted:

Jenkins

White

Crumpler

Lelie - played

Finneran

Pathon - played 8 games for the Falcons

D. White

Price

T.Edwards - played 6 games for the Falcons

Jefferson

W. Jackson - played 7 games for the Falcons

T. Martin - played with Vick only in 2001, Vick's rookie year in which he attempted 113 passes

Mathis - played with Vick only in 2001, Vick's rookie year in which he attempted 113 passes

Some of these guys were pretty good.

Which ones were pretty good? I think it is fair to call Crumpler a pretty good TE. Who else that really bears on the discussion at hand (see comments embedded above)?I think Finneran is the best WR Vick has had. That sums up the quality of his WRs throughout his career right there.

BTW-here are the comp % of the other QB's on his team:

2001-Chandler: 61.1

2001-Johnson: 60.0 - 5 whole passing attempts... come on, you're just piling on here

2001-Vick: 44.2 23rd in points scored - 113 attempts as a rookie

2002-Johnson: 64.9 - 2 games with more than a few attempts--1 TD, 3 ints

2002-Vick: 54.9 5th in points scored - 16 TDs, 8 ints--see Johnson above... comp pct. isn't everything

2003- Johnson: 56.0 - 243 attempts, 8 TDs, 12 ints

2003-Kittner: 38.6 - 114 attempts, 2 TDs, 6 ints

2003- Vick: 50.0 20th in points scored - 100 attempts after coming back from injury - 4 TDs, 3 ints

2004-Schaub: 47.1

2004-Vick: 56.4*(career best) 16th in points scored

2005-Schaub: 51.6

2005- Vick: 55.3 14th in points scored

2006- Vick: 50.4 26th in points scored

So you can see a trend of poor passing comp % and one by where he has digressed this year after showing some improvement. Worse, they've dropped in points scored and that's largely due to Vick.

Independent of completion percentage, Vick was a rookie in 2001 and was clearly Atlanta's best QB in 2002 & 2003. More recently, many people want to say Schaub is better, but there is no way to fairly compare them at this point.

Not sure where to begin so I will bullit point some responses:*I don't think I'm ignoring anything. I am reporting to you the stats as they are. It sounds like you're suggesting we should ignore the stats because he doesn't throw very often.

*It wouldn't matter how many pass attempts he makes he will still have a low comp %. In fact, when you consider the number of dump off throws he makes to Crumpler compared to the low attempts one would think his comp % would be much higher.

*If you look at who he throws to you'll see that apx. 51% of his comp go to RB's and TE's. For comparison, Manning has thrown 42% of his to the players positions. So why is Manning able to comp 62% of his while throwing 21% more of his passes to WR's? I'm sure we can find others to compare. In fact I bet if you checked you'd find similar stats for Rivers (56% to RB/WR) while comp 68% of his passes. And no one will make think his WR's are anything special and this is his first year. And Rivers does not run the ball.

* You are saying his comp % is low because he doesn't throw more passes?

* Why do you suggest that that Jenkins and White are not good WR's when many analyst say they are?

* You suggest that when Reeves left this caused Vick to digress. I don't think so. If that's the case then why did Vick's comp % drop to 50% under Reeves? Further, his highest comp % ocurred under Mora with a 56.4%.

* As to the comment he had 1 good year. Are seriously suggesting that 1 year out of 6 is something that sheds a positive on Vick. That's as good as it ever got and that's not much to crow about as a passer.

* You often refer to Vick's rushing numbers as though they make it better as a passer. They don't. He's always been a bad passer and always will be. The West Coast offense is the 1 offense that will make a QB's comp % soar. Excpet they can't make someone look good passing when they can't pass.

* With regrads to the quality of WR, isn't amazing that Price flourished in Buff but not in Atl. Wonder what the difference was?

* As for the other receivers, Crumpler is a 3 time Pro Bowler. Not too bad IMO.

So what you just did with this post is ignore every statistic but rushing to make Vick seem like a good passer. He is not and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. Your opinion is that the WR's they've had for 6 years are no good but that only serves to make your point. There is evidence that other QB's could throw to some of the same WR's that Vick cannot.

So just to be sure, your argument is that Vick is a good passer? Or that he is not but it's the WR's and coaches are at fault and Vick is blameless in the entire 6 years?

 

[juveduke]

Not sure where to begin so I will bullit point some responses:*It wouldn't matter how many pass attempts he makes he will still have a low comp %. In fact, when you consider the number of dump off throws he makes to Crumpler compared to the low attempts one would think his comp % would be much higher.

False. Crumpler had one of the highest YPC last season with 13.5. Shockey was the only TE with 30+ receptions to have a higher ypc last season (13.7). The season before that Crumpler had a 16.1 ypc , which led the league.

 

[juveduke]

So what you just did with this post is ignore every statistic but rushing to make Vick seem like a good passer. He is not and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. Your opinion is that the WR's they've had for 6 years are no good but that only serves to make your point. There is evidence that other QB's could throw to some of the same WR's that Vick cannot. So just to be sure, your argument is that Vick is a good passer? Or that he is not but it's the WR's and coaches are at fault and Vick is blameless in the entire 6 years?

The argument is that he is an average passer. I'd rank him about 16th in the league for passing. There are other QBs that have success with bad receivers (McNabb comes to mind), but they have a better line, a better OC, or there is a 50/50 shot they are just better passers.You know how they say Philly has a short passing game instead of a running game? The opposite is true for the Falcons, there is no short passing game at all.

 

[Family Matters]

Not sure where to begin so I will bullit point some responses:*It wouldn't matter how many pass attempts he makes he will still have a low comp %. In fact, when you consider the number of dump off throws he makes to Crumpler compared to the low attempts one would think his comp % would be much higher.

False. Crumpler had one of the highest YPC last season with 13.5. Shockey was the only TE with 30+ receptions to have a higher ypc last season (13.7). The season before that Crumpler had a 16.1 ypc , which led the league.

What? I do not understand the relationship to what I posted.

 

[Family Matters]

So what you just did with this post is ignore every statistic but rushing to make Vick seem like a good passer. He is not and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. Your opinion is that the WR's they've had for 6 years are no good but that only serves to make your point. There is evidence that other QB's could throw to some of the same WR's that Vick cannot. So just to be sure, your argument is that Vick is a good passer? Or that he is not but it's the WR's and coaches are at fault and Vick is blameless in the entire 6 years?

The argument is that he is an average passer. I'd rank him about 16th in the league for passing. There are other QBs that have success with bad receivers (McNabb comes to mind), but they have a better line, a better OC, or there is a 50/50 shot they are just better passers.You know how they say Philly has a short passing game instead of a running game? The opposite is true for the Falcons, there is no short passing game at all.

A 50-50 shot that Vick is as good a passer as McNabb?

 

[pizzatyme]

Man, I think all of this could be resolved if they just made the tough call to move Vick to RB or WR. He is every bit as good as Bush IMHO, if not better. Vick trying to keep up the facade that he is a starting QB is just silly.

I know his number would change, but so would his legacy!

 

[Family Matters]

Man, I think all of this could be resolved if they just made the tough call to move Vick to RB or WR. He is every bit as good as Bush IMHO, if not better. Vick trying to keep up the facade that he is a starting QB is just silly.I know his number would change, but so would his legacy!

I agree. It won't ever happen but imagine him as RB/WR with McNabb. That would be totaly lethal. For that matter with Schaub at QB, it would be very interesting as well. Atlanta would be awesome and likely elevate to Super Bowl contender if they did that. Considering how well their defense is playing they would be very difficult to beat.

 

[Biabreakable]

I think this discussion of Vick and Atlanta's passing offense is timely because this week they face the Steelers.

Atlanta has been a great rushing offense but they are not likely to have such success against teams like the Steelers and this forces thier offense to win by passing the ball.

Vick hasn't shown that he is capable of winning games by passing when the Falcons face matchups like this and that is a glaring weakness of an otherwise very good team.

 

[pizzatyme]

I think this discussion of Vick and Atlanta's passing offense is timely because this week they face the Steelers.Atlanta has been a great rushing offense but they are not likely to have such success against teams like the Steelers and this forces thier offense to win by passing the ball.Vick hasn't shown that he is capable of winning games by passing when the Falcons face matchups like this and that is a glaring weakness of an otherwise very good team.

I mean if the Steelers can shut down the running game for most, if not all, teams. And they then can also stop Peyton Manning, I gosh damn guarantee you they can also stop Vick!Atlanta throws a curveball this week and starts Schaub at QB, Vick at RB/Flanker and beats the Steelers. Any other gameplan is dead in the water!

 

[juveduke]

So what you just did with this post is ignore every statistic but rushing to make Vick seem like a good passer. He is not and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. Your opinion is that the WR's they've had for 6 years are no good but that only serves to make your point. There is evidence that other QB's could throw to some of the same WR's that Vick cannot. So just to be sure, your argument is that Vick is a good passer? Or that he is not but it's the WR's and coaches are at fault and Vick is blameless in the entire 6 years?

The argument is that he is an average passer. I'd rank him about 16th in the league for passing. There are other QBs that have success with bad receivers (McNabb comes to mind), but they have a better line, a better OC, or there is a 50/50 shot they are just better passers.You know how they say Philly has a short passing game instead of a running game? The opposite is true for the Falcons, there is no short passing game at all.

A 50-50 shot that Vick is as good a passer as McNabb?

Reading comprehension down?50/50 shot that any other starting QB is better than Vick.

 

[Family Matters]

So what you just did with this post is ignore every statistic but rushing to make Vick seem like a good passer. He is not and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. Your opinion is that the WR's they've had for 6 years are no good but that only serves to make your point. There is evidence that other QB's could throw to some of the same WR's that Vick cannot. So just to be sure, your argument is that Vick is a good passer? Or that he is not but it's the WR's and coaches are at fault and Vick is blameless in the entire 6 years?

The argument is that he is an average passer. I'd rank him about 16th in the league for passing. There are other QBs that have success with bad receivers (McNabb comes to mind), but they have a better line, a better OC, or there is a 50/50 shot they are just better passers.You know how they say Philly has a short passing game instead of a running game? The opposite is true for the Falcons, there is no short passing game at all.

A 50-50 shot that Vick is as good a passer as McNabb?

Reading comprehension down?50/50 shot that any other starting QB is better than Vick.

Guess it was and thanks for clarifying that. But he isn't even an average passer under the best of circumstances. The only thing he does well is run and that's why he's 1 demensional.

 

[flranger]

if Jenkins catches that pass, the Falcons win that game.

I did not see the game, but I've heard similar things from others - specificly that the WRs were dropping a lot of catchable passes. I don't think anyone would confuse Vick's throwing ability with Palmer's or Manning's, but, for those who saw the game, do you feel that the receivers were as responsible (or more) as Vick for the struggling passing game?

Just for a point of reference, the 3 main recievers on ATL, Crumpler, Jenkins and White have combined for 6 dropped passes this year.

not sure who is keeping those stats, but i can easily remember 6 drops by Crumpler alone.

Couldn't agree more. I saw more than 6 drops just Sunday alone. Vick looks mediocre, WRs make him look even worse.

 

[Tau837]

I don't think I'm ignoring anything. I am reporting to you the stats as they are. It sounds like you're suggesting we should ignore the stats because he doesn't throw very often.

I never said to ignore the stats. But you're focusing on the wrong stats if you really want to judge Vick's passing ability. The point is that compiled statistics, like total TD passes, are affected by number of attempts. Completion percentage is fair, and you have certainly beaten that horse to death already. But that is the only statistic you chose that is not an accumulated statistic and thus affected by number of attempts.

It wouldn't matter how many pass attempts he makes he will still have a low comp %. In fact, when you consider the number of dump off throws he makes to Crumpler compared to the low attempts one would think his comp % would be much higher.

You are saying his comp % is low because he doesn't throw more passes?

Did you read what I posted? I didn't say anything about completion percentage. There is no way to argue his completion percentage--it is what it is.

If you look at who he throws to you'll see that apx. 51% of his comp go to RB's and TE's. For comparison, Manning has thrown 42% of his to the players positions. So why is Manning able to comp 62% of his while throwing 21% more of his passes to WR's? I'm sure we can find others to compare. In fact I bet if you checked you'd find similar stats for Rivers (56% to RB/WR) while comp 68% of his passes. And no one will make think his WR's are anything special and this is his first year. And Rivers does not run the ball.

First of all, was anyone here arguing that Vick is close to as good of a passer as Manning or Rivers? I know I wasn't. So I'm not sure where you're going with that argument.As to the percentages, again I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. I think you are somehow further knocking him for his completion percentage, which you're saying should be higher because he completes a good percentage of his passes to RB and TE. OK, so his completion percentage isn't good. We got that. You're just harping on the same thing over and over.As for why he would throw more to his TEs and RBs than Manning, isn't it obvious? First of all, Manning is a better QB, so the comparison is silly to begin with. But it is also true that Manning has Harrison and Wayne at WR, with Clark at TE and Rhodes and Addai at RB... let's see, great WRs, and average pass catchers at TE and RB... yes, it makes sense to target the WRs. Vick has a pretty good TE in Crumpler, and a pretty good receiving RB in Dunn, and lousy WRs... so it makes sense for him to do something different than Manning and target his TE and RBs. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with this material.

Why do you suggest that that Jenkins and White are not good WR's when many analyst say they are?

1. Are analysts always right about players? 2. Are those analysts saying how good they are just speaking relatively? That is, if Jenkins was on another team, would those analysts be saying that, or are they simply saying that because he is surrounded by even worse receivers?3. Were these reports you are referring to any more than fluff pieces?4. What evidence do you have that those two are good? What have they done, besides fail to make plays and drop passes?5. How many other NFL teams do you think either Jenkins or White would start for? Would either of them even be the #3 WR for more than half the teams in the league?

You suggest that when Reeves left this caused Vick to digress. I don't think so. If that's the case then why did Vick's comp % drop to 50% under Reeves? Further, his highest comp % ocurred under Mora with a 56.4%.

This makes no sense. Here is Vick's record under Reeves:2001 - Vick was a rookie, played in 8 games, and attempted 113 passes, completing only 44.2%. Yes, that is definitely a poor completion percentage, but as I noted in an earlier post, Vick was a very raw passer coming out of college, so it really wasn't a surprise.2002 - Vick started 15 games, attempted 421 passes, and completed 54.9%. Still not a great completion percentage, but a nice improvement from his first year. More importantly, while he may not have been a great passer that year, he was a great QB, regardless of what his completion percentage was.2003 - Vick was hurt in preseason and didn't play until the last 5 games. He attempted only 100 passes, and completed 50%. Reeves was relieved of his position before the last 3 games. So he was coming off injury, and then had a coaching change in the midst of his late season comeback. And there isn't much of a sample set anyway, with only 100 passes. You're really saying that this result under these circumstances shows that Reeves wasn't better for Vick than Mora?

As to the comment he had 1 good year. Are seriously suggesting that 1 year out of 6 is something that sheds a positive on Vick. That's as good as it ever got and that's not much to crow about as a passer.

First of all, Vick is in the midst of season 6. Of the first 5 seasons, he only threw more than 113 passes in three of them, so those are the ones to look at if you want to really try to judge his passing ability. One good season out of three does show some potential, yes. Especially when that was his only season in another offense that was better suited to his skills.And, if you'll actually pay attention to what I have posted, you'll see that I have been saying that Vick could be an average passer... I haven't been "crowing" about his passing ability, just arguing that it isn't as bad as many here think.

You often refer to Vick's rushing numbers as though they make it better as a passer.

I do? In the post you quoted, I made one reference to his rushing numbers:

In 2002, he had 421 passing attempts, and threw for 2936/16/8 in 15 games. Not great, but not bad at all considering he added 777/8 rushing

Is this the "crowing" you are referring to? Do you disagree that 2936/16/8 passing in 15 games is "not bad"? Do you disagree that 2936/16/8 passing and 777/8 rushing in 15 games is a great season for a QB?

With regrads to the quality of WR, isn't amazing that Price flourished in Buff but not in Atl. Wonder what the difference was?

Price had one great season in 4 seasons in Buffalo. He played two lousy seasons in Atlanta. He played a season in Dallas in which he caught 6 passes. And now he is back in Buffalo, where he has caught 18 passes in 6 games. This is your evidence that Vick has had good WRs? CONTINUED IN NEXT POST to get the quotes to work.

 

[Tau837]

Made this into two posts to get the quotes to work. ---

As for the other receivers, Crumpler is a 3 time Pro Bowler. Not too bad IMO.

Right. I acknowledged that the first time. Amazing that he could earn those honors given how bad you say Vick is.

So what you just did with this post is ignore every statistic but rushing to make Vick seem like a good passer. He is not and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. Your opinion is that the WR's they've had for 6 years are no good but that only serves to make your point. There is evidence that other QB's could throw to some of the same WR's that Vick cannot.

You completely mischaracterized my post. I suggest you reread all of my posts in the thread and then reconsider what you think I am saying here.

So just to be sure, your argument is that Vick is a good passer? Or that he is not but it's the WR's and coaches are at fault and Vick is blameless in the entire 6 years?

No, if you do as I suggested and reread my posts, you'll find that my view is the following:1. Atlanta should put Vick in a different offense that is better suited to his talents than the WCO.2. Atlanta should get some better WRs.3. Atlanta should get some better coaching for Vick (not necessarily Mora, could be the OC, QB coach, etc.).You'll find that I believe that under Reeves, #1 and #3 above were true, and Vick had his best season, in which he was "not bad" as a passer and a great QB.You'll also find that I specifically said it is Vick's "fault" that he is not a better natural passer, so I am not saying he is "blameless". But I also believe his WRs are awful. Both can be true.Any questions?

 

[Family Matters]

I don't think I'm ignoring anything. I am reporting to you the stats as they are. It sounds like you're suggesting we should ignore the stats because he doesn't throw very often.

I never said to ignore the stats. But you're focusing on the wrong stats if you really want to judge Vick's passing ability. The point is that compiled statistics, like total TD passes, are affected by number of attempts. Completion percentage is fair, and you have certainly beaten that horse to death already. But that is the only statistic you chose that is not an accumulated statistic and thus affected by number of attempts.

It wouldn't matter how many pass attempts he makes he will still have a low comp %. In fact, when you consider the number of dump off throws he makes to Crumpler compared to the low attempts one would think his comp % would be much higher.

You are saying his comp % is low because he doesn't throw more passes?

Did you read what I posted? I didn't say anything about completion percentage. There is no way to argue his completion percentage--it is what it is.

If you look at who he throws to you'll see that apx. 51% of his comp go to RB's and TE's. For comparison, Manning has thrown 42% of his to the players positions. So why is Manning able to comp 62% of his while throwing 21% more of his passes to WR's? I'm sure we can find others to compare. In fact I bet if you checked you'd find similar stats for Rivers (56% to RB/WR) while comp 68% of his passes. And no one will make think his WR's are anything special and this is his first year. And Rivers does not run the ball.

First of all, was anyone here arguing that Vick is close to as good of a passer as Manning or Rivers? I know I wasn't. So I'm not sure where you're going with that argument.

As to the percentages, again I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. I think you are somehow further knocking him for his completion percentage, which you're saying should be higher because he completes a good percentage of his passes to RB and TE. OK, so his completion percentage isn't good. We got that. You're just harping on the same thing over and over.

As for why he would throw more to his TEs and RBs than Manning, isn't it obvious? First of all, Manning is a better QB, so the comparison is silly to begin with. But it is also true that Manning has Harrison and Wayne at WR, with Clark at TE and Rhodes and Addai at RB... let's see, great WRs, and average pass catchers at TE and RB... yes, it makes sense to target the WRs. Vick has a pretty good TE in Crumpler, and a pretty good receiving RB in Dunn, and lousy WRs... so it makes sense for him to do something different than Manning and target his TE and RBs. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with this material.

Why do you suggest that that Jenkins and White are not good WR's when many analyst say they are?

1. Are analysts always right about players?

2. Are those analysts saying how good they are just speaking relatively? That is, if Jenkins was on another team, would those analysts be saying that, or are they simply saying that because he is surrounded by even worse receivers?

3. Were these reports you are referring to any more than fluff pieces?

4. What evidence do you have that those two are good? What have they done, besides fail to make plays and drop passes?

5. How many other NFL teams do you think either Jenkins or White would start for? Would either of them even be the #3 WR for more than half the teams in the league?

You suggest that when Reeves left this caused Vick to digress. I don't think so. If that's the case then why did Vick's comp % drop to 50% under Reeves? Further, his highest comp % ocurred under Mora with a 56.4%.

This makes no sense. Here is Vick's record under Reeves:

2001 - Vick was a rookie, played in 8 games, and attempted 113 passes, completing only 44.2%. Yes, that is definitely a poor completion percentage, but as I noted in an earlier post, Vick was a very raw passer coming out of college, so it really wasn't a surprise.

2002 - Vick started 15 games, attempted 421 passes, and completed 54.9%. Still not a great completion percentage, but a nice improvement from his first year. More importantly, while he may not have been a great passer that year, he was a great QB, regardless of what his completion percentage was.

2003 - Vick was hurt in preseason and didn't play until the last 5 games. He attempted only 100 passes, and completed 50%. Reeves was relieved of his position before the last 3 games. So he was coming off injury, and then had a coaching change in the midst of his late season comeback. And there isn't much of a sample set anyway, with only 100 passes. You're really saying that this result under these circumstances shows that Reeves wasn't better for Vick than Mora?

As to the comment he had 1 good year. Are seriously suggesting that 1 year out of 6 is something that sheds a positive on Vick. That's as good as it ever got and that's not much to crow about as a passer.

First of all, Vick is in the midst of season 6. Of the first 5 seasons, he only threw more than 113 passes in three of them, so those are the ones to look at if you want to really try to judge his passing ability. One good season out of three does show some potential, yes. Especially when that was his only season in another offense that was better suited to his skills.

And, if you'll actually pay attention to what I have posted, you'll see that I have been saying that Vick could be an average passer... I haven't been "crowing" about his passing ability, just arguing that it isn't as bad as many here think.

You often refer to Vick's rushing numbers as though they make it better as a passer.

I do? In the post you quoted, I made one reference to his rushing numbers:

In 2002, he had 421 passing attempts, and threw for 2936/16/8 in 15 games. Not great, but not bad at all considering he added 777/8 rushing

Is this the "crowing" you are referring to? Do you disagree that 2936/16/8 passing in 15 games is "not bad"? Do you disagree that 2936/16/8 passing and 777/8 rushing in 15 games is a great season for a QB?

With regrads to the quality of WR, isn't amazing that Price flourished in Buff but not in Atl. Wonder what the difference was?

Price had one great season in 4 seasons in Buffalo. He played two lousy seasons in Atlanta. He played a season in Dallas in which he caught 6 passes. And now he is back in Buffalo, where he has caught 18 passes in 6 games. This is your evidence that Vick has had good WRs?

So if we cut through all the garbage, at the end of the day Vick is not a good passing QB. Not even average or fair. There is absolutely no evidence to support any other conclusion. Could he be? Not based on actual evidence. I think 63 games and all the stats are enough to base this conclusion on.

 

[Tau837]

So if we cut through all the garbage, at the end of the day Vick is not a good passing QB. Not even average or fair. There is absolutely no evidence to support any other conclusion. Could he be? Not based on actual evidence. I think 63 games and all the stats are enough to base this conclusion on.

Gotcha. You can't address any of the actual points, so instead, just characterize them as garbage and retreat.

 

[Family Matters]

So if we cut through all the garbage, at the end of the day Vick is not a good passing QB. Not even average or fair. There is absolutely no evidence to support any other conclusion. Could he be? Not based on actual evidence. I think 63 games and all the stats are enough to base this conclusion on.

Gotcha. You can't address any of the actual points, so instead, just characterize them as garbage and retreat.

Nothing I said has changed. Besides, it wouldn't take much to poke holes in alot of what you said but that won't help Vick much. Just follow the facts and leave the Vick colored lens in your pocket and you will see the truth my friend.

 

[Tau837]

So if we cut through all the garbage, at the end of the day Vick is not a good passing QB. Not even average or fair. There is absolutely no evidence to support any other conclusion. Could he be? Not based on actual evidence. I think 63 games and all the stats are enough to base this conclusion on.

Gotcha. You can't address any of the actual points, so instead, just characterize them as garbage and retreat.

Nothing I said has changed. Besides, it wouldn't take much to poke holes in alot of what you said but that won't help Vick much. Just follow the facts and leave the Vick colored lens in your pocket and you will see the truth my friend.

Whatever. Most of what you suggested I wrote was completely wrong, so I guess there isn't much reason to think you'll get it the second time anyway.

 

[icehouse]

Give Vick a break. You guys wouldn't pass so well either if your nuts were burning 24/7!!!!

But seriously, some are calling Vick a loser. Hasn't he taken his team as far as P.Manning, with less help?

 

[juveduke]

Not sure where to begin so I will bullit point some responses:*It wouldn't matter how many pass attempts he makes he will still have a low comp %. In fact, when you consider the number of dump off throws he makes to Crumpler compared to the low attempts one would think his comp % would be much higher.

False. Crumpler had one of the highest YPC last season with 13.5. Shockey was the only TE with 30+ receptions to have a higher ypc last season (13.7). The season before that Crumpler had a 16.1 ypc , which led the league.

What? I do not understand the relationship to what I posted.

There are very few dump offs in the Falcons passing game. Crumplers ypc reflects that he doesn't catch many "dump offs" (otherwise his ypc catch would be lower because of all the short passes being caught).

 

[shadow2k]

I guess if Vick sucks because of his WR's, then Trent Green shouldn't have ever thrown for 4,000yds. I mean, Eddie Kennison...seriously? Who the hell is McNabb throwing to? Brady lost every receiver under 40yrs old from last year, and he's still seems to be doing fine (yes, his numbers are down, but he's still better than Vick).

Look at some of the ways you guys try to defend him. He's not an accurate passer, so they should put him in a system that takes advantage of his skills? You mean, an offense that runs well with an inaccurate passer? What system would that be, the option? Yeah, that worked well for a couple games, until the Saints showed them why they only pull that crap in college.

Seriously...what system will an inaccurate QB do well in? Because I guess that's what ATL needs. A system in which a crappy passer can excel. Good luck figuring that one out.

Vick was a GREAT college QB. His not a a pro-level QB. That's not going to change, I'm sorry. And don't tell me about his W/L record, there are 52 other guys on that team. Hell, Steve Bono went 13-3 one year with the Chiefs, and even won a playoff game. He has a great career win % for games he started, but nobody would ever mistake him for a good QB.

 

[trader jake]

The Falcons offense should be about the running game first (which it is) and explosive, down the field passing plays second...instead of these dink and dunk routes. The one thing I just can't get around is that the Falcons passing offense is built around short timing routes. Does that make any sense with Mike Vick at QB?

 

[Gargoylez]

Seriously...what system will an inaccurate QB do well in? Because I guess that's what ATL needs. A system in which a crappy passer can excel. Good luck figuring that one out. Vick was a GREAT college QB. His not a a pro-level QB. That's not going to change, I'm sorry. And don't tell me about his W/L record, there are 52 other guys on that team. Hell, Steve Bono went 13-3 one year with the Chiefs, and even won a playoff game. He has a great career win % for games he started, but nobody would ever mistake him for a good QB.

I find that statement extremely niave. He can make defenders look absolutely SILLY on the pro level, he is the most exciting QB to watch in the league, he puts fans into the seats, he wins much more games then he loses for the Falcons and he does have one of the strongest arms in the NFL.I find it ignorant, because someone is not a stereotypical QB that he is not "pro-level." He would not be the starting QB if he wasnt Pro-Level... thats just a simple 2+2=4. I appreciate Vick as a Different QB, if everyone thought like Shadow2K everythign would be ONE way and every other way is wrong or amateur... thank God thats not true.Don't compare Vick to Green. Green is an excellent pocket passer. I guess I could say Green is not a Pro-Level QB because he can't scramble very well... I mean... ### for tat.

 

[Big Score]

Not sure where to begin so I will bullit point some responses:

*It wouldn't matter how many pass attempts he makes he will still have a low comp %. In fact, when you consider the number of dump off throws he makes to Crumpler compared to the low attempts one would think his comp % would be much higher.

False. Crumpler had one of the highest YPC last season with 13.5. Shockey was the only TE with 30+ receptions to have a higher ypc last season (13.7). The season before that Crumpler had a 16.1 ypc , which led the league.

What? I do not understand the relationship to what I posted.

juveduke has already explained this to you, but if you've actually watched many Falcons games, you'd know that Crumpler runs very few "Dump Off" routes.He was simply trying to point out that basic error in your analysis.

To be honest, from most of your analysis & posts in this thread, it's obvious that you're basing your points / opinions off of stats, as opposed to what you've actually seen in the games played.

The most obvious use of you going by stats, as opposed to what has really happened in the games, was where you were saying the Falcons WR's have only dropped 6 passes all year.

I've noticed you've stopped trying to use that stat after a plethora of posters (who have actually watched the Falcons games), pointed out that there were more dropped passes than that, in just the Saints game alone.

You really need to watch the Falcons games. Right now, you're getting an incomplete picture going by the stats alone & you're drawing some incorrect conclusions because of it.

 

[perry147]

From CBSSportsline:

In an interview with Cris Carter on HBO's Inside the NFL, Falcons QB Michael Vick expressed his disappointment with the offense and wished he could throw to more talented receivers. Whan asked about the offense, Vick said, "You've got to throw the ball sometimes. You can't just line up and run the ball every time on first and second down. Teams key in on that and they have coaches, too. We're going to have to throw it more ... Coach (Jim Mora) is going have to trust in me to get it done and I'm up to the challenge to get it done." Vick also wondered aloud what it would be like to throw to Chad Johnson, Randy Moss or Marvin Harrison.

It looks like Vick is defending himself and blaming his WR's.

Is this a team on the meltdown?

PS: And for those wondering - no I did not misspell 'when' as 'whan' that is exactly how CBSSportsline had it.

 

[This_Is_Not_VRR]

According to Florio, the issue arose shortly after Sunday's loss, when defensive coordinator Ed Donatell got in offensive coordinator Greg Knapp's face regarding the inability of the offense to sustain drives, which resulted in the defense being on the field for too long.

Aren't the Falcons still the league leaders in rushing? That would suggest to me that they would also rank right near the top in time of possession. An offense that does nothing but run the ball should excel at keeping their defense off of the field and fresh.

 

[Big Score]

From CBSSportsline:

In an interview with Cris Carter on HBO's Inside the NFL, Falcons QB Michael Vick expressed his disappointment with the offense and wished he could throw to more talented receivers. Whan asked about the offense, Vick said, "You've got to throw the ball sometimes. You can't just line up and run the ball every time on first and second down. Teams key in on that and they have coaches, too. We're going to have to throw it more ... Coach (Jim Mora) is going have to trust in me to get it done and I'm up to the challenge to get it done." Vick also wondered aloud what it would be like to throw to Chad Johnson, Randy Moss or Marvin Harrison.

It looks like Vick is defending himself and blaming his WR's.

Is this a team on the meltdown?

PS: And for those wondering - no I did not misspell 'when' as 'whan' that is exactly how CBSSportsline had it.

To me it sounds like he's saying they need to get out of the predictable rut of running on 1st & 2nd down which if they don't make much yardage then puts him in 3rd & long. He wants them to mix it up some, which is honestly not a bad idea. Not saying they have to go overboard or anything, just throw in a pass on 1st or 2nd down a little more often than they are now (which is just about NONE of the time).As far as Vick wondering what it would be like to have a Moss, Harrison or Johnson type to throw to, I'd imagine every single NFL QB that doesn't have those types of talented guys, has wondered the exact same thing.

 

[Family Matters]

Not sure where to begin so I will bullit point some responses:

*It wouldn't matter how many pass attempts he makes he will still have a low comp %. In fact, when you consider the number of dump off throws he makes to Crumpler compared to the low attempts one would think his comp % would be much higher.

False. Crumpler had one of the highest YPC last season with 13.5. Shockey was the only TE with 30+ receptions to have a higher ypc last season (13.7). The season before that Crumpler had a 16.1 ypc , which led the league.

What? I do not understand the relationship to what I posted.

juveduke has already explained this to you, but if you've actually watched many Falcons games, you'd know that Crumpler runs very few "Dump Off" routes.He was simply trying to point out that basic error in your analysis.

To be honest, from most of your analysis & posts in this thread, it's obvious that you're basing your points / opinions off of stats, as opposed to what you've actually seen in the games played.

The most obvious use of you going by stats, as opposed to what has really happened in the games, was where you were saying the Falcons WR's have only dropped 6 passes all year.

I've noticed you've stopped trying to use that stat after a plethora of posters (who have actually watched the Falcons games), pointed out that there were more dropped passes than that, in just the Saints game alone.

You really need to watch the Falcons games. Right now, you're getting an incomplete picture going by the stats alone & you're drawing some incorrect conclusions because of it.

Well it's difficult to have a discussion when only 1 person (me) takes the time to actually review the official stats. When you and some others take the time to do that then we can all be on the same page and have a meaningful dialogue. So I agree with you. I am basing these specific comments on the stats because they are not biased. Stats are not fans of specific players. They just tell you what happened. So if you and others want to refute them then I guess we can do the same for every other player as well.

The problem with the folks that are blaming the WR's, specificly Michael Jenkins, is that they keep referring to 1 play. In some cases they want us to believe that Crumpler dropped "alot" of passes. But apparently there are professionals that disagree with those folks. They record stats for the NFL and they seem to think those were not dropped passes, at least not all of them. They were actually at the game, not watching on TV with small snapshots to base their judgement on. They are trained to make these judgements.

Lastly, some want to focus their comments on 1 game and make career judgements on what they believe are a couple of dropped balls. Yet these problems have persisted in Vick's entire career. So we are to believe that all his WR's, TE's and RB's have dropping balls their entire Falcon's career? Sure they did.

 

[Pygmy Marmoset]

From CBSSportsline:In an interview with Cris Carter on HBO's Inside the NFL, Falcons QB Michael Vick expressed his disappointment with the offense and wished he could throw to more talented receivers. Whan asked about the offense, Vick said, "You've got to throw the ball sometimes. You can't just line up and run the ball every time on first and second down. Teams key in on that and they have coaches, too. We're going to have to throw it more ... Coach (Jim Mora) is going have to trust in me to get it done and I'm up to the challenge to get it done." Vick also wondered aloud what it would be like to throw to Chad Johnson, Randy Moss or Marvin Harrison. It looks like Vick is defending himself and blaming his WR's.Is this a team on the meltdown?PS: And for those wondering - no I did not misspell 'when' as 'whan' that is exactly how CBSSportsline had it.

I think a lot of QBs wonder what it would be like to have a receiver to throw to like Moss, Harrison, or Johnson. I'm not really down on him for wondering that.By the same token, I bet a lot of receivers wonder what it would be like to have Brett Favre throw them the ball. And I think last year everyone was right to get down on Owens for his comments.It's not the wonder, it's the statement on National TV that is the problem. It's a non-team kind of thing to do - a pretty BS move IMO, and kind of anti-team-leader. I'd be pretty worried about this in the locker room.

 

[T Man]

Watching Vick, he doesn't know how to play the QB position. Season after season, I never get the feel that he's progressing or learning as a QB. Part of that lies on him, can he handle the WCO? To be fair, there are alot of QBs out there who can't handle the WCO. Veterans, rookies, smart guys, dumb guys, it's not for everyone. On the flip side, Vick has never really had a veteran mentor at QB. Alex Smith is doing better now. People might point to Norv Turner, I point to Trent Dilfer. Dilfer goes to Seattle, Hasslebeck gets better. He goes to Cleveland, Frye gets better, he goes to SF, Smith gets better. Vick is a great athlete, he's not a great QB. But I think he has the upside to be a great QB if put in the right situation. Steve Young was never a super accurate passer ( he did alot of dinking and dunking to cover up some of his accuracy issues), he never had a great deal of touch and he was a good runner. Young has a ring, no reason for Vick to not get one down the road. It's not impossible for Vick to be a good QB, but he's got to get someone in there and show him how to play the position. A Trent Dilfer kind of player who is not a threat but is like a quasi coach on the field. Sometimes Vick looks clueless out there.

Actually, I think the problem is twofold. 1) The Falcons are trying to wedge a square into a round hole. Vick is not a WCO QB. He is the farthest thing from it. He has a powerful arm. And, while I am not a scout, he does not appear to be a thinking QB that can make quick reads. The Falcons should be utilizing his ability to go deep and stop trying to make him make quick decisions. While I thinkt someone posted that they should trade him to Oakland, I think that offensive style - yeah what style - (deep pass) is better for him. That said, he still should learn to make reads and the correct throws.2) Vick has always excelled on pure athleticsim. I do not think he has ever taken the time to learn the QB position and he hasn't started in the pros. He just wants to continue to out talent people. That does not work in the NFL. He has to take the blame, but he never does. Vick tends to get a pass on everything. TO says that he would prefer Favre over McNabb and he is lambasted. Vick says essentially the same thing and many want to give him a pass. (Granted TO is an extreme example because of his past history). I am sure his teammates aren't happy that Vick essentially says that he would be better with better receivers. And the OC couldn't be happy that Vick says he would be better with a different OC. So what happens, people backed into a corner fire back. THe OC did just that and it will likely deteriorate from there.Vick is an incredible talent. But until he takes the time to learn the position and stop blaming everyone else, he will never be a top 5 NFL QB in my opinion.

 

[Family Matters]

From CBSSportsline:

In an interview with Cris Carter on HBO's Inside the NFL, Falcons QB Michael Vick expressed his disappointment with the offense and wished he could throw to more talented receivers. Whan asked about the offense, Vick said, "You've got to throw the ball sometimes. You can't just line up and run the ball every time on first and second down. Teams key in on that and they have coaches, too. We're going to have to throw it more ... Coach (Jim Mora) is going have to trust in me to get it done and I'm up to the challenge to get it done." Vick also wondered aloud what it would be like to throw to Chad Johnson, Randy Moss or Marvin Harrison.

It looks like Vick is defending himself and blaming his WR's.

Is this a team on the meltdown?

PS: And for those wondering - no I did not misspell 'when' as 'whan' that is exactly how CBSSportsline had it.

Amazing because in an interview this before the season started, he said he was going to do what he does best and that's run the ball. He's doing it his way. And this after he spent alot of time in the offseason working with his WR's and praising their development. Let's review some additional insight to the problem:"October 2, 2006, 14:45

Falcons :: QB

QB Mi. Vick Struggling With Fundamentals

George Henry, Sporting News - [Full Article]

Atlanta Falcons QB Michael Vick is having problems making reads and using proper footwork in the red zone. Vick is throwing off his front foot a lot, and the offense line is providing terrible interior protection. In the red zone, poor play-calling is causing Vick and the offense to press too much. "

While this one has no real merit I thought it was an interesting observation:

"August 26, 2006, 08:55

Titans, Falcons :: QB

QB Young Shuns QB Vick Comparison

Teresa M. Walker, Associated Press - [Full Article]

Vince Young has been called the latest version of Michael Vick, an athletic quarterback who runs first, throws second. The rookie begs to differ. "I'm Vince. He's Mike. I support him a whole lot because he opened a lot of doors for me as well as other quarterbacks, young guys coming up. In a way, I'm a little bit different. I'm 6-5. I'm lanky. He's a little smaller back," Young said. And one other thing. "I look to pass first and run second," Young said"

This one is more evidence from Vick himself. Notice the bolded comment:

"August 13, 2006, 13:10

Falcons :: QB

The QB/Runner Debate Continues With QB Vick

AP - [Full Article]

Every now and then, the criticism gets to Michael Vick. Last year, after resembling a traditional quarterback in a win at Miami, Vick told all the cynics to quit harping on his unique style and acknowledge that he could be effective as a dropback passer when he really put his mind to it. But, as the Atlanta Falcons fell apart down the stretch, the Vick-isn't-a-real-quarterback lobby got louder. Vick has come to realize he'll always be a convenient target of those who say a quarterback should hone his passing skills and leave the running to others. "

"July 27, 2006, 19:47

NFL :: Falcons :: QB

QB Vick Vows to Give Super Effort in 2006

CHARLES ODUM, AP Sports Writer, Yahoo Sports - [Full Article]

Falcons QB Michael Vick questions his performance in last season's final game and looks to improve leadership skills in 2006. "

This is the article I remember the most:

"July 25, 2006, 19:05

Falcons :: QB

QB Vick Looking To Run More

Jarrett Bell, USA Today - [Full Article]

QB Michael Vick expects to take it to the next lever this year. Knowing he'll never be a prototype passer, he plans to embrace his open-field running gifts in 2006. "It's not like I was trying to become a pocket passer. It's not what God put me on this Earth to do. My thing is, get me on the move," he says. "

"July 22, 2006, 18:13

Falcons :: WR

WR White Preparing For Breakout Year

Charles Odum, Associated Press - [Full Article]

WR Roddy White feels that the extra time he has spent with QB Michael Vick this off-season will pay big dividends this upcoming season. "I'm prepping myself to have a breakout year, and I'm doing everything I can to be ready to do that," White said. After starting out the 2005 season with only 5 catches, White finished strong with 19 receptions in his last 7 games and scored 2 of his 3 total touchdowns in the last 4 games. "

"July 21, 2006, 14:39

Falcons :: QB

QB Mi. Vick Running Out Of Excuses?

Ray Glier, MSNBC.com - [Full Article]

It is getting easier to shrug at Michael Vick. His passer rating was 25th in the NFL last season. But it is a stat that comes with complexities, as Vick was sacked a lot because of poor protection. The Falcons are a run-first team. He did not have a big-play receiver on the outside he would trust. Then again, the receivers he has, he misses, except for tight end Alge Crumpler. Vick cannot beat tight man-to-man with a throw through the head of a needle. He forces passes against a zone. More disappointing numbers--Vick has 29 touchdown passes and 25 interceptions the last two years. That is not a good ratio."

So while some is opinions of writers, much is from Vick himself. So if Vick says he's not a good pocket passer, and if the analysts say he's not a good pocket passer and if the stats prove that he's not a good pocket passer, then why would someone, anyone state an opinion (without anything to back it up) that he's a good pocket passer?