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"FBG Commish Ruling" on Mon Nite - Our .02 (1 Viewer)

tdoss

Footballguy
Ask the Commish...JOE...can you have the commish come in and make an end all ruling on this? And what he says goes...I'd suggest you get your league on board with this tool/resource now...for cases where there are no clear cut rules to cover such instances in your league.Get them to agree to this arbitration...and once they do...scroll down for Commish's response (I'm assuming Joe will post it here)...Then...that's it...end of debate...////////////////////////////Joe Bryant edited: Tdoss, I've changed the title of your post here to better reflect what we feel it is. I don't want folks to think it's an "end all" ruling. It's just the ruling we think it is.Thanks.J

 
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Greg R

Footballguy
I expected to see:

IDP
Amen. This year for the first time ever, I'm playing in and actually care how I do in a league that doesn't use IDPs. I don't understand how anyone can prefer team defenses. I don't understand wanting a system where you don't own all of the accomplishments of your player. Team defenses are the suckiest buncha sucks that ever sucked (with props to Homer).IDPs rule.

 

BassNBrew

IBL Representative
I expected to see:

IDP
Amen. This year for the first time ever, I'm playing in and actually care how I do in a league that doesn't use IDPs. I don't understand how anyone can prefer team defenses. I don't understand wanting a system where you don't own all of the accomplishments of your player. Team defenses are the suckiest buncha sucks that ever sucked (with props to Homer).IDPs rule.
So says the guy who drafted Tampa early in Survivor2.Coming from a KC owner in 2 of 3 leagues. ;)

 

Greg R

Footballguy
I expected to see:

IDP
Amen. This year for the first time ever, I'm playing in and actually care how I do in a league that doesn't use IDPs. I don't understand how anyone can prefer team defenses. I don't understand wanting a system where you don't own all of the accomplishments of your player. Team defenses are the suckiest buncha sucks that ever sucked (with props to Homer).IDPs rule.
So says the guy who drafted Tampa early in Survivor2.Coming from a KC owner in 2 of 3 leagues. ;)
Heh, actually, I was referring to the 96-team Omega league, though I care about Survivor also. Still, Survivor would be much better with IDPs.
 

DeadStroke

Footballguy
I agree with you tdoss, I hope Joe will consult the expert commish on this and post a resolution on here. For teams that have IDP, it is cut and dry on the outcome.For teams that have team defenses, it's not so cut and dry. Several years ago, four or five, I had a similiar situation happen and I lost the fantasy game, because the offense was rewarded the touchdown. Here's how it was interpreted in our league.The main reason I lost and the fumbled touchdown was rewarded to the opposing team defense that was actually the offensive unit was because our league for purposes of awarding points against, interpreted all points against as being against the team defense, i.e. If Detroit is playing Chicago and Detroit's offense is on the field, Joey throws an interception and it is returned for a TD, 6 pts are charged against Detroit's defense. Hence, whichever Detroit unit that is on the field is responsible for defending the Detroit goal line. In the above example, Detroit's offensive unit did not defend their goal line. In the above example if the final score was Detroit 35 Chicago 7, Detroit's team defense would have 7 points charged against them for calculating total points against, even though the offensive unit gave up the touchdown. I also believe, that if Detroit's team defense did not have 7 pts charged against them, then it would not be a defensive touchdown.Just my opinion, but I think it is very important in issuing a ruling, to state how pts against are calculated. Ironically, I am on the opposite side of the same play, in a different league and could have the exact same play, with the similiar rules ruled against me again, costing me the fantasy win.Such is life in the fantasy world.DeadStroke

 

PatsFan72

Footballguy
The NFL has scored it as a fumble return for a TD.

NFL Gamebook

So it should be scored as a Tampa D touchdown.

As the NFL goes, so should any fantasy football league.

P.S. No I do not have Tampa D or McCardell nor was I going against either of them.

 

Nomad

Footballguy
The NFL has scored it as a fumble return for a TD.NFL GamebookSo it should be scored as a Tampa D touchdown.As the NFL goes, so should any fantasy football league.P.S. No I do not have Tampa D or McCardell nor was I going against either of them.
They have it listed as "Misc." It is not listed under "Regular Defensive Plays" or "Special Teams." No where in the gamebook is the defense given credit for the fumble recovery or TD. Only McCardell is scored as a fumble recovery for a TD.(That's exacly the way Ricard's TD was scored in week 3, when it clearly was NOT a defensive TD.) GAMEBOOK
 

DBomb

Footballguy
I don't think that this is a difficult scenario at all. Once a team gives up possession, they are considered to be on defense, regardless of the personell on the field. The Colts intercepted the pass and made a move with the ball in possession. Since the Colts player who intercepted the ball did have possession, they are now considered to be on offense. The Bucs as a result were defending their endzone and were therefore on defense. The Bucs then forced a fumble and ran it in for a defensive td.That's my take.

 

Joe Bryant

Guide
Staff member
Hey Guys,Our Fantasy Court thing where subscribers submit their questions to our commish guru, Bill Davies, for making a call has been super popular. (even more than I thought) It's a good 3rd party / no bias, resource. I'm sure he's swamped this morning on this call but I'll get him to send me something and I'll post it here. J

 

Ghost Rider

Footballguy
I don't think that this is a difficult scenario at all. Once a team gives up possession, they are considered to be on defense, regardless of the personell on the field. The Colts intercepted the pass and made a move with the ball in possession. Since the Colts player who intercepted the ball did have possession, they are now considered to be on offense.
So if the Colts were then considered the offense, then had Doss taken it to the endzone, then it wouldn't have been a defensive score then since they were then the offense, right? Give me a break. Tampa's defense was not on the field, so it should be considered a touchdown for McCardell and TB's offense.
 

cobalt27

Footballguy
So if the Colts were then considered the offense, then had Doss taken it to the endzone, then it wouldn't have been a defensive score then since they were then the offense, right? Give me a break. Tampa's defense was not on the field, so it should be considered a touchdown for McCardell and TB's offense.
Nice try, thanks for playing.
 

Brock Middlebrook

Footballguy
So if the Colts were then considered the offense, then had Doss taken it to the endzone, then it wouldn't have been a defensive score then since they were then the offense, right? Give me a break. Tampa's defense was not on the field, so it should be considered a touchdown for McCardell and TB's offense.
It's a return TD."Defensive" TD is a misnomer. It's impossible to score a true defensive TD (let's not get into semantics about falling on a ball in the endzone.)
 

PMENFAN

Footballguy
It's a rushing TD for McCardell. INDI does not get an INT, or charged with a fumble. Them taking possession during a play is a mute point, because they didn't end with possession. The INT and fumble really never happened, from a scoring perspective. Say Kurt Warner throws a 60 yard bomb to Torry Holt, and Holt makes the catch, runs 5 yards, and fumbles the ball away. What happens? Does Holt get credit for a 65 yard catch and penalized for the fumble? Nope. The catch is a mute point, because the end result was a turnover. The only scoring there is the fumble. This is a similar scenario to what happened.

 

fletch

Footballguy
Just saw that as of right now, CBSSportsline is giving the TD to the Tampa D/ST. Chances are that other scoring systems folllow suit...

 

BassNBrew

IBL Representative
It's a rushing TD for McCardell. INDI does not get an INT, or charged with a fumble. Them taking possession during a play is a mute point, because they didn't end with possession. The INT and fumble really never happened, from a scoring perspective. Say Kurt Warner throws a 60 yard bomb to Torry Holt, and Holt makes the catch, runs 5 yards, and fumbles the ball away. What happens? Does Holt get credit for a 65 yard catch and penalized for the fumble? Nope. The catch is a mute point, because the end result was a turnover. The only scoring there is the fumble. This is a similar scenario to what happened.
I believe your incorrect, Holt does get credit for the catch and rec. yardage. By your contention, yardage would evaporate into thin air.
 

Nomad

Footballguy
It's a rushing TD for McCardell. INDI does not get an INT, or charged with a fumble. Them taking possession during a play is a mute point, because they didn't end with possession. The INT and fumble really never happened, from a scoring perspective.

Say Kurt Warner throws a 60 yard bomb to Torry Holt, and Holt makes the catch, runs 5 yards, and fumbles the ball away. What happens? Does Holt get credit for a 65 yard catch and penalized for the fumble? Nope. The catch is a mute point, because the end result was a turnover. The only scoring there is the fumble.

This is a similar scenario to what happened.
Wrong. Wrong. And Wrong.McCardell is not credited with any rushing yards, just a fumble recovery for a TD.

Indy is given credit for an interception and a fumble.

Holt would be given credit for a 65 yard reception and a fumble.

 

JDubs

Footballguy
It's a rushing TD for McCardell. INDI does not get an INT, or charged with a fumble. Them taking possession during a play is a mute point, because they didn't end with possession. The INT and fumble really never happened, from a scoring perspective. Say Kurt Warner throws a 60 yard bomb to Torry Holt, and Holt makes the catch, runs 5 yards, and fumbles the ball away. What happens? Does Holt get credit for a 65 yard catch and penalized for the fumble? Nope. The catch is a mute point, because the end result was a turnover. The only scoring there is the fumble. This is a similar scenario to what happened.
Actually, if you use NFL stats for your scoring, the catch still counts even if they fumble away the ball at the end of the reception. Desmond Clark for the bears this week was credited for 2 catches for 19 yards even though at the end of one he fumbled. If you are a commish and score based on what you wrote, than the way you scored it makes sense, however, for most of the rest of us, including everyone who uses one of the major fantasy sites, the scoring is different.The main argument is whether or not your league penalizes a Team D for points scored when their offense is on the field (either by an INT or fumble). If they do, then you'd have to score the McCardell return a TD, since the argument for points counting against a Team D is that as soon as the ball is turned over, the offensive players become the defense, and thus, anything that happens from that point forward should be awarded to the Team D in question.
 

PMENFAN

Footballguy
By your contention, yardage would evaporate into thin air
Not my contention, NFL rules. You have to complete the play with possession. Even if a ram player falls on the ball, and there is no change, it's scored as rushing yard gains for the recovering player. Is it sensible? No, but that's the way they score. When you look at it from a neutral position, that's the only way to score it. This isn't a hypothetical, but a real instance from a couple of years back, by the way. Yes, Holt caught the ball for a 65 yard gain. But, that's not a 65 yard gain until the end of the play. But, before the end of the play a fumble happened, and they lost possession. Lets say that in the play Holt ran 15 yard back in an evasive maneuver. Does it still go for 65 yards? No, because before the end of the play the yardage was altered. This is a bit different, I'll agree, but the same principal of what happens during the play is irrelevent. It's what the net result of the play is between the snap and the whistle. What is different between those two markers is the net result of the play, and in accumulating statistics, that is all that matters.
 

Nomad

Footballguy
Not my contention, NFL rules. You have to complete the play with possession. Even if a ram player falls on the ball, and there is no change, it's scored as rushing yard gains for the recovering player. Is it sensible? No, but that's the way they score. When you look at it from a neutral position, that's the only way to score it. This isn't a hypothetical, but a real instance from a couple of years back, by the way. Yes, Holt caught the ball for a 65 yard gain. But, that's not a 65 yard gain until the end of the play. But, before the end of the play a fumble happened, and they lost possession. Lets say that in the play Holt ran 15 yard back in an evasive maneuver. Does it still go for 65 yards? No, because before the end of the play the yardage was altered. This is a bit different, I'll agree, but the same principal of what happens during the play is irrelevent. It's what the net result of the play is between the snap and the whistle. What is different between those two markers is the net result of the play, and in accumulating statistics, that is all that matters.
This is completely incorrect under NFL scoring rules.
 

fletch

Footballguy
Just saw that as of right now, CBSSportsline is giving the TD to the Tampa D/ST. Chances are that other scoring systems folllow suit...
Explanation from CBS Sportline:The play in which Keenan McCardell picked up Michael Doss's fumble and ran it in for a touchdown will be scored as a touchdown for the Buccaneers defense. The reason is as follows: once Michael Doss intercepted Brad Johnson's pass, there was a change of possession and the Colts become the offensive team and the Bucs become the defensive team. Doss then fumbled the ball and McCardell recovered the fumble and returned it for a TD. Even though McCardell is typically an offensive player, he was on defense on that particular play, once the Colts intercepted the ball. As a result, the Bucs defense will be credited with a Defensive Fumble Recovery and a Defensive TD. Currently our site is incorrectly scoring that TD, but this will be updated shortly. We appreciate your patience
 

Maurile Tremblay

Administrator
Staff member
From the NFL rules:

Rule 3, Section 35, Article 1:

Whenever a team is in possession, it is the Offense and, at such time, its opponent is the Defense.
Under Rule 3, Section 2, Article 7, a team is in possession when it makes an interception. So when Mike Doss intercepted the pass, the colts were on offense and Keenan McCardell was on defense.Once McCardell picked up the fumble, he was no longer on defense, but that's true for any defensive player who intercepts the ball or scoops up a fumble. (As Brock Middlebrook pointed out above, "defensive TD" is a misnomer -- there's actually no such thing if you go by the NFL rules.)

As always, the way this play should be scored in your league depends on the wording of your league's rules. In leagues that give individual points only for rushing TDs, passing TDs, and receiving TDs, McCardell probably shouldn't receive any individual points. In leagues that give DT points for fumble-return TDs, an argument can be made that the Bucs DT should get points, but that's debatable. (McCardell wasn't playing defense at the snap, was playing defense after the interception, then wasn't playing defense after the fumble recovery. Are defensive points available only to teams who start out on defense on that particular play, or are they also available to teams who end up on defense at some point after the snap?) Your commissioners have a tough job.

 
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Joe Bryant

Guide
Staff member
Hi Folks,

First thing. This is an interpretation of how our Commish Guru, Bill Davies, sees this call. While you guys can argue amongst yourselves, I really have no desire to argue it. What people have asked us for is an opinion and this is what that is.

Here's what Bill had to say about it this morning:

Q: Was McCardell's TD a defensive touchdown?

A: No. The Tampa Bay Buccaneers began the play on offense. After the interception, according to NFL rules, the defense becomes the offense and vice versa. This is what causes the confusion. But if you really take that logic to its conclusion, it would stand to reason that there could never be a defensive TD. Additionally, let's take that interpretation and reapply it to when McCardell gained possession of the ball - he was back on offense again. There is no scenario where McCardell's TD can be credited to the Bucs defense.

Q: Why didn't McCardell's return yards on the fumble recovery show up as receiving yards.

A: Because they weren't receiving yards. They were return yards. We traditionally think of similar oddities as being like laterals, where one player receives receiving yardage, but no reception. That's not what happened here. It was a fumble recovery - plain and simple.

Q: Who gets credit for the TD?

A: That depends. This will sound very lawyerly, but it really does depend. As I mentioned before, there is no scenario where the Bucs defense get credit for a TD. McCardell may get credit for the TD, depending on how your rules are written. This is a fumble recovery, not a receiving TD. If your rules do not recognize fumble recoveries for TDs by offensive players, then no one gets credit for the TD. If they do, McCardell gets credit for the TD. This is going to lead to some ticked off McCardell owners.

Q: If our league does not reward for fumble recoveries for a TD, should McCardell still get credit?

A: Technically, no. Every league is tasked with handling it as they desire, but no. If your rules have overlooked this possibility, then you can correct next offseason but it is not a McCardell TD. Your league management system won't recognize it and your league shouldn't either.

Good luck!

The Commissioner

/////////////////

Joe's comment: I think the key phrase from Bill is this This is a fumble recovery, not a receiving TD. If your rules do not recognize fumble recoveries for TDs by offensive players, then no one gets credit for the TD. If they do, McCardell gets credit for the TD.

NFL.com http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20031006_IND@TB is very clear on this. It was a fumble recovery TD for McCardell of 57 fumble recovery yards. The only real issue as I see it is how your league is set up to handle fumble recoveries for TDs by offensive players. I can't help you with that. I know in all my local leagues, our offensive players do get credit for a fumble recovery TD. This happens quite a bit.

So in my bottom line opinion, this was a fumble recovery TD by McCardell playing on offense. It was not a defensive TD. The question really becomes how your league handles fumble recovery TDs by offensive players.

I understand CBS is possibly ruling this differently. That's fine. If you want to use CBS, use CBS. It honestly won't hurt our feelings one bit. As I said before, I honestly have no desire to argue this. If you think I'm wrong, that's fine. Use a different ruling. All we're doing here is providing our opinion and you can take that for what it's worth.

J

 

PMENFAN

Footballguy
Okay, I'll abandon my argument, but there is no way the CBS Sportsline take is right. D/ST is a unit that plays on Defense or Special Teams. How can they be credited with a score without stepping on the field? That ridiculous. It's a mute point in our league (because of the way the games were anyway, tampa owner wins my a mile, and McCardell not starting), which we're scoring a touchdown for McCardell (how you score is irrelevent, it's just 6 points), but no points for the Tampa D/ST, because in our league the unit has to actually take the field to get credit for a score.

 

BassNBrew

IBL Representative
I've got two different leagues where the outcome depends on how this is scored. Man this stinks!

 

Brock Middlebrook

Footballguy
It's a rushing TD for McCardell. INDI does not get an INT, or charged with a fumble. Them taking possession during a play is a mute point, because they didn't end with possession. The INT and fumble really never happened, from a scoring perspective. Say Kurt Warner throws a 60 yard bomb to Torry Holt, and Holt makes the catch, runs 5 yards, and fumbles the ball away. What happens? Does Holt get credit for a 65 yard catch and penalized for the fumble? Nope. The catch is a mute point, because the end result was a turnover. The only scoring there is the fumble. This is a similar scenario to what happened.
You really should include "sarcasm" tags in your post, I almost took it at face value...
 

Cybergeek

Footballguy
What I have not seen addressed is the fumble recovery itself. I'm sure that there have to be some leagues where the 2 points for the recovery is the deciding factor in a game. How does the touchdown not count but the recovery does?

 

fletch

Footballguy
I'd hate to be a commisioner in a league where this decision determines the outcome of a close game....What I'd really love to see is an "official NFL ruling for fantasy footbal scoring" on this - but I know that will never happen.

 
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BassNBrew

IBL Representative
What I have not seen addressed is the fumble recovery itself. I'm sure that there have to be some leagues where the 2 points for the recovery is the deciding factor in a game. How does the touchdown not count but the recovery does?
It will be interesting to see how it's handle in the $15K game. Those 2 points will likely make a difference there as well as how it's scored for McCardell.
 

JDubs

Footballguy
D/ST is a unit that plays on Defense or Special Teams. How can they be credited with a score without stepping on the field? That ridiculous.
following this logic, why should they be punished if they never step on the field? did your league count the points that came as a result of Barber's TD against the Colts D/ST? If it did, than the points from McCardell's return should count as points for Tampa's D/ST. If the Barber TD doesn't count against the Colts D, than the the McCardell return should not benefit tampa's d.
 

BassNBrew

IBL Representative
I'd hate to be a commisioner in a league where this decision determines the outcome of a close game....What I'd really love to see is an "official NFL ruling for fantasy footbal scoring" on this - but I know that will never happen.
Actually they might since they are in the fantasy contest business or at least "NFL.com" is. Is anyone in any of those leauges?
 

chet

Footballguy
Here's what Bill had to say about it this morning:Q: Was McCardell's TD a defensive touchdown?A: No. The Tampa Bay Buccaneers began the play on offense. After the interception, according to NFL rules, the defense becomes the offense and vice versa. This is what causes the confusion. But if you really take that logic to its conclusion, it would stand to reason that there could never be a defensive TD. Additionally, let's take that interpretation and reapply it to when McCardell gained possession of the ball - he was back on offense again. There is no scenario where McCardell's TD can be credited to the Bucs defense.
With all due respect, this answer does not help at all. We all know that if your D returns an INT for a TD, your D gets credit for the TD. According to Bill's response, they should NOT be credited for a TD in ANY circumstance since after they gain possession, they are on offense. So, while he may be correct in his statement, it doesn't help because we all credit our D's with TDs. Any thoughts?
 

Topes

Footballguy
I'd hate to be a commisioner in a league where this decision determines the outcome of a close game....

What I'd really love to see is an "official NFL ruling for fantasy footbal scoring" on this - but I know that will never happen.
Actually they might since they are in the fantasy contest business or at least "NFL.com" is. Is anyone in any of those leauges?
I believe NFL.com is CBS, so this will get tricky.For those who thought the 2000 was tricky, get ready for the 'fantasy match that never ended'.

Leagues and friendships will be torn apart over this one folks! It's gonna get ugly!

 

JGannon

Footballguy
Explanation from CBS Sportline:The play in which Keenan McCardell picked up Michael Doss's fumble and ran it in for a touchdown will be scored as a touchdown for the Buccaneers defense. The reason is as follows: once Michael Doss intercepted Brad Johnson's pass, there was a change of possession and the Colts become the offensive team and the Bucs become the defensive team. Doss then fumbled the ball and McCardell recovered the fumble and returned it for a TD. Even though McCardell is typically an offensive player, he was on defense on that particular play, once the Colts intercepted the ball. As a result, the Bucs defense will be credited with a Defensive Fumble Recovery and a Defensive TD. Currently our site is incorrectly scoring that TD, but this will be updated shortly. We appreciate your patience
Can you give me link of where this is please?
 

ff weasel

Footballguy
Taken from one of the message boards I frequent: Here's a Question and Answer of perhaps the most common question that will come out of all this: Q. Some leagues think that this should be considered a defensive touchdown, because they say that once a change of possession happens, the team that was once the offense is now the defense, and vice versa. Therefore, should this be considered a Tampa Bay defensive touchdown, not an offensive touchdown? A. From the NFL Rulebook: Rule 3, Section 35, Article 1 Whenever a team is in possession, it is the Offense and, at such time, its opponent is the Defense. Rule 3, Section 35, Article 2 The team that puts the ball in play is Team A, and its oponent is Team B. For brevity, a player on Team A is referred to as A1 and his teammate as A2, A3, etc. Opponents are B1, B2, etc. Note: A team becomes Team A when it has been designated to put ball in play, and it remains Team A until a down ends, even though there might be one or more changes of possession during the down. This is in contrast with the terms Offense and Defense. Team A is the offense when the down starts, but becomes the defense if and when B secures possession during the down, and vice versa for each change of possession. The above is from the NFL rules. However, clearly it's the intention in fantasy football to award things like interceptions and fumbles returned for a touchdown to the defensive team (because they are actually on the field at the time of the play), and not the offensive team. If fantasy football followed the letter of the NFL rules, there would be no such thing as a defensive touchdown, as all interception and fumble recovery touchdowns are scored by the the team with possession (i.e., the offensive team, if you follow the letter of the NFL rulebook).

 

fletch

Footballguy
Explanation from CBS Sportline:The play in which Keenan McCardell picked up Michael Doss's fumble and ran it in for a touchdown will be scored as a touchdown for the Buccaneers defense. The reason is as follows: once Michael Doss intercepted Brad Johnson's pass, there was a change of possession and the Colts become the offensive team and the Bucs become the defensive team. Doss then fumbled the ball and McCardell recovered the fumble and returned it for a TD. Even though McCardell is typically an offensive player, he was on defense on that particular play, once the Colts intercepted the ball. As a result, the Bucs defense will be credited with a Defensive Fumble Recovery and a Defensive TD. Currently our site is incorrectly scoring that TD, but this will be updated shortly. We appreciate your patience
Can you give me link of where this is please?
It was on my league's homepage under "Site News". haven't been able to find the statement in a general access area.
 

jeffsalmans

Footballguy
D/ST is a unit that plays on Defense or Special Teams. How can they be credited with a score without stepping on the field? That ridiculous. It's a mute point in our league (because of the way the games were anyway, tampa owner wins my a mile, and McCardell not starting), which we're scoring a touchdown for McCardell (how you score is irrelevent, it's just 6 points), but no points for the Tampa D/ST, because in our league the unit has to actually take the field to get credit for a score.
In our league D/ST are two separate units. Two years ago San Diego's punt return team went for a block but the punter never got his foot on the ball. The Chargers recovered and ran it back for a TD. Because it was never punted (I guess) the NFL scored it as a defensive TD even though Seau and Co. weren't on the field. The owner that was playing San Diego's ST but not their D lost because of this ruling. He ended up quitting. So it's the situation and not the personnel that determine what type of score it is. [Just remembered another one--Erlacher scored on a fake FG and it was an offensive TD, not a special teams.] All due respect to FBG, this should be a defensive TD for Tampa Bay.BTW, it's a "moot" point, not a "mute" one. :)
 
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ff weasel

Footballguy
D/ST is a unit that plays on Defense or Special Teams.  How can they be credited with a score without stepping on the field?  That ridiculous.  It's a mute point in our league (because of the way the games were anyway, tampa owner wins my a mile, and McCardell not starting), which we're scoring a touchdown for McCardell (how you score is irrelevent, it's just 6 points), but no points for the Tampa D/ST, because in our league the unit has to actually take the field to get credit for a score.
In our league D/ST are two separate units. Two years ago San Diego's punt return team went for a block but the punter never got his foot on the ball. The Chargers recovered and ran it back for a TD. Because it was never punted (I guess) the NFL scored it as a defensive TD even though Seau and Co. weren't on the field. The owner that was playing San Diego's ST but not their D lost because of this ruling. He ended up quitting. So it's the situation and not the personnel that determine what type of score it is. [Just remembered another one--Erlacher scored on a fake FG and it was an offensive TD, not a special teams.] All due respect to FBG, this should be a defensive TD for Tampa Bay.BTW, it's a "moot" point, not a "mute" one. :)
I don't see how it can be classified as an Defensive TD when the rule states that Team A (Offense) remains Team A until the down ends.
Rule 3, Section 35, Article 1 Whenever a team is in possession, it is the Offense and, at such time, its opponent is the Defense. Rule 3, Section 35, Article 2 The team that puts the ball in play is Team A, and its oponent is Team B. For brevity, a player on Team A is referred to as A1 and his teammate as A2, A3, etc. Opponents are B1, B2, etc. Note: A team becomes Team A when it has been designated to put ball in play, and it remains Team A until a down ends, even though there might be one or more changes of possession during the down. This is in contrast with the terms Offense and Defense. Team A is the offense when the down starts, but becomes the defense if and when B secures possession during the down, and vice versa for each change of possession.
 

fantasy nut

Footballguy
QUOTE (PMENFAN @ Oct 7 2003, 10:08 AM) D/ST is a unit that plays on Defense or Special Teams. How can they be credited with a score without stepping on the field? That ridiculous. following this logic, why should they be punished if they never step on the field? did your league count the points that came as a result of Barber's TD against the Colts D/ST? If it did, than the points from McCardell's return should count as points for Tampa's D/ST. If the Barber TD doesn't count against the Colts D, than the the McCardell return should not benefit tampa's d.
Very good point. I am sure we have all been impacted by the scenario you brought up -- losing a defensive shut out on an offensive blunder (i.e. INT return for a TD).I believe the correct ruling on this play is a RETURN TD...and as such, all RETURNS should be credited to the D/ST.
 

jeffsalmans

Footballguy
Rule 3, Section 35, Article 1 Whenever a team is in possession, it is the Offense and, at such time, its opponent is the Defense. Rule 3, Section 35, Article 2 The team that puts the ball in play is Team A, and its oponent is Team B. For brevity, a player on Team A is referred to as A1 and his teammate as A2, A3, etc. Opponents are B1, B2, etc. Note: A team becomes Team A when it has been designated to put ball in play, and it remains Team A until a down ends, even though there might be one or more changes of possession during the down. This is in contrast with the terms Offense and Defense. Team A is the offense when the down starts, but becomes the defense if and when B secures possession during the down, and vice versa for each change of possession.
Read it again. Team A remains team A until the down ends, but Team A is the offense when the down starts, but becomes the defense if and when B secures possession during the down, and vice versa for each change of possession.
 

ff weasel

Footballguy
Rule 3, Section 35, Article 1 Whenever a team is in possession, it is the Offense and, at such time, its opponent is the Defense. Rule 3, Section 35, Article 2 The team that puts the ball in play is Team A, and its oponent is Team B. For brevity, a player on Team A is referred to as A1 and his teammate as A2, A3, etc. Opponents are B1, B2, etc.

Note: A team becomes Team A when it has been designated to put ball in play, and it remains Team A until a down ends, even though there might be one or more changes of possession during the down. This is in contrast with the terms Offense and Defense. Team A is the offense when the down starts, but becomes the defense if and when B secures possession during the down, and vice versa for each change of possession.
Read it again. Team A remains team A until the down ends, but Team A is the offense when the down starts, but becomes the defense if and when B secures possession during the down, and vice versa for each change of possession.
I read the rule again and still don't come to the same conclusion as you.A team becomes Team A when it has been designated to put ball in play, and it remains Team A until a down ends, even though there might be one or more changes of possession during the down.

I believe the rule is stating that this is in contrast to the following:

This is in contrast with the terms Offense and Defense. Team A is the offense when the down starts, but becomes the defense if and when B secures possession during the down, and vice versa for each change of possession.

 

cjack

Footballguy
I dont know about you guys, but I really disagree with Joe and FBG's on this one.
I, on the other hand, agree with Joe and the FBGs.The NFL rule is vague at best so that does little to clarify the argument.So, I look upon logic and common sense to determine a ruling.If you draft a defense/special teams in fantasy football, it's for the purpose of getting points for those respective units. It's not for the purpose of getting the benefit of unclear rules and freak plays.Forget the rules for a minute, and just tell me whether you think it's fair for a DT/ST to be awarded points for a play when neither the defense nor the special teams were on the field.I think the NFL rule is confused by semantics regarding whether a team is on offense or defense, but logic and common sense should prevail.
 

4thand26

Footballguy
From the NFL Rulebook: Rule 3, Section 35, Article 1 Whenever a team is in possession, it is the Offense and, at such time, its opponent is the Defense. Rule 3, Section 35, Article 2 The team that puts the ball in play is Team A, and its oponent is Team B. For brevity, a player on Team A is referred to as A1 and his teammate as A2, A3, etc. Opponents are B1, B2, etc. Note: A team becomes Team A when it has been designated to put ball in play, and it remains Team A until a down ends, even though there might be one or more changes of possession during the down. This is in contrast with the terms Offense and Defense. Team A is the offense when the down starts, but becomes the defense if and when B secures possession during the down, and vice versa for each change of possession.I think this sums it up.. McCardell should be on Offense when he recovers the fumble.

 

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