FBI created a forensics disaster; sent hundreds of innocent people to (2 Viewers)

[GroveDiesel]

This is insane. For over 2 decades FBI examiners used bad science and misleading testimony to send hundreds of innocent people to prison for crimes like rape and murder. Some have probably already been executed (and that right there is the best argument against the death penalty).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/fbi-overstated-forensic-hair-matches-in-nearly-all-criminal-trials-for-decades/2015/04/18/39c8d8c6-e515-11e4-b510-962fcfabc310_story.html

 

[NCCommish]

Been telling you guys for years how crappy forensic science is. So much junk science involved. Everyone who lied under oath should go to jail. Every supervisor who knew should be in the cell with them. And I consider overstating to be lying.

 

[rockaction]

Been telling you guys for years how crappy forensic science is. So much junk science involved. Everyone who lied under oath should go to jail. Every supervisor who knew should be in the cell with them. And I consider overstating to be lying.

The explicit and tacit immunity for these people has to come to an end if we want any accountability in the criminal justice system.

 

[AAABatteries]

This is why I keep my body hairless. This will never happen to me.

 

[NCCommish]

Been telling you guys for years how crappy forensic science is. So much junk science involved. Everyone who lied under oath should go to jail. Every supervisor who knew should be in the cell with them. And I consider overstating to be lying.

The explicit and tacit immunity for these people has to come to end if we want any accountability in the criminal justice system.

Yep

 

[[icon]]

I'll reserve judgement until we get tanner with CSI sunglasses shtick in here

 

[jon_mx]

So to bash the FBI for overstating evidence, we overstate what the article says.

 

[apalmer]

I hate when I have to agree with Jon. False testimony on one piece of evidence does not necessarily equal convicting an innocent defendant.

 

[GroveDiesel]

I hate when I have to agree with Jon. False testimony on one piece of evidence does not necessarily equal convicting an innocent defendant.

Clearly it plays a huge role:

In the District, the only jurisdiction where defenders and prosecutors have re-investigated all FBI hair convictions, three of seven defendants whose trials included flawed FBI testimony have been exonerated through DNA testing since 2009, and courts have exonerated two more men. All five served 20 to 30 years in prison for rape or murder.

5 of 7 defendants who had false testimony regarding hair matches in DC were exonerated. Not retried and found not-guilty. Exonerated.

And we're not just talking about the 3500 or so cases that the FBI was directly involved in. Those same examiners trained about 1,000 state and local examiners as well. So there's a good chance that all of them were testifying using the same faulty standards.

How many cases were completely circumstantial with the only thing linking the defendant to the crime scene being a hair? My bet is more than we'd like to believe.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Is the science valid and the forensic witnesses lied as to data and conclusions, or was the science simply wrong and judges and investigators failed to heed opposing theories which later proved to be true?

 

[jon_mx]

I hate when I have to agree with Jon. False testimony on one piece of evidence does not necessarily equal convicting an innocent defendant.

Clearly it plays a huge role:

In the District, the only jurisdiction where defenders and prosecutors have re-investigated all FBI hair convictions, three of seven defendants whose trials included flawed FBI testimony have been exonerated through DNA testing since 2009, and courts have exonerated two more men. All five served 20 to 30 years in prison for rape or murder.

5 of 7 defendants who had false testimony regarding hair matches in DC were exonerated. Not retried and found not-guilty. Exonerated.

And we're not just talking about the 3500 or so cases that the FBI was directly involved in. Those same examiners trained about 1,000 state and local examiners as well. So there's a good chance that all of them were testifying using the same faulty standards.

How many cases were completely circumstantial with the only thing linking the defendant to the crime scene being a hair? My bet is more than we'd like to believe.

But those 7 cases were probably some of the flimiest cases. Trying to project what happened in a handful of cases to thousands of other cases is pretty dicey. Almost all cases have a lot more to them than just forensics, so I would bet the vast majority of the time they still got the right person, especially in cases which capitol punishment was involved. Maybe your assumptions are better than mine, but we really don't have enough facts to make definitive statements. Any case where there are legitimate concerns about the overall evidence in the case, needs to be re-examined.

 

[The Big Guy]

oops hair

 

[jon_mx]

Was this one of those scientific theories where the government scientists all claimed the science was settled? Asking for a friend.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

But those 7 cases were probably some of the flimiest cases.

Or they were all seven cases tried in DC with flawed testimony.

In the District, the only jurisdiction where defenders and prosecutors have re-investigated all FBI hair convictions, three of seven defendants whose trials included flawed FBI testimony have been exonerated through DNA testing since 2009, and courts have exonerated two more men.

So in the one "state" that's examined ALL of the flawed hair testimony cases, it found that 70%+ of the defendents were EXONERATED.

 

[jon_mx]

But those 7 cases were probably some of the flimiest cases.

Or they were all seven cases tried in DC with flawed testimony.

In the District, the only jurisdiction where defenders and prosecutors have re-investigated all FBI hair convictions, three of seven defendants whose trials included flawed FBI testimony have been exonerated through DNA testing since 2009, and courts have exonerated two more men.

So in the one "state" that's examined ALL of the flawed hair testimony cases, it found that 70%+ of the defendents were EXONERATED.

Your sample size is 7, which makes a margin of error around 40%, And a judge would probably EXONERATE the defendant based on investigators providing misleading evidence. There is a good chance they were innocent, but maybe the judge was just pissed at the prosecution.

 

[Quez]

The FBI is shady as hell. Look at how they killed that guy they were questioning about the Boston bombing. They basically executed him and he wasn't even armed. Then they did an investigation into it, and said they did nothing wrong...

 

[timschochet]

It sounds like some terrible stuff happened here and there ought to be a full investigation. Grove Diesel is right in suggestimg that the death penalty should perhaps be put on hold while we check the validity of these verdicts; I've made that argument for years.

Yet I also sense a typical reaction here which is to assign deliberate evil intention to the FBI and to government in general. As usual, I suspect mistakes and incompetence are the true culprits rather than design.

 

[NCCommish]

It sounds like some terrible stuff happened here and there ought to be a full investigation. Grove Diesel is right in suggestimg that the death penalty should perhaps be put on hold while we check the validity of these verdicts; I've made that argument for years.

Yet I also sense a typical reaction here which is to assign deliberate evil intention to the FBI and to government in general. As usual, I suspect mistakes and incompetence are the true culprits rather than design.

One time is a mistake. Hundreds is a pattern of systemic corruption of the process. In other words they lied on purpose to help convict people and it was accepted.

 

[jon_mx]

It sounds like some terrible stuff happened here and there ought to be a full investigation. Grove Diesel is right in suggestimg that the death penalty should perhaps be put on hold while we check the validity of these verdicts; I've made that argument for years.

Yet I also sense a typical reaction here which is to assign deliberate evil intention to the FBI and to government in general. As usual, I suspect mistakes and incompetence are the true culprits rather than design.

One time is a mistake. Hundreds is a pattern of systemic corruption of the process. In other words they lied on purpose to help convict people and it was accepted.

You don't have any idea whether or not they knew if they were overstating the meaning of the results.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Yet I also sense a typical reaction here which is to assign deliberate evil intention to the FBI and to government in general. As usual, I suspect mistakes and incompetence are the true culprits rather than design.

It's just a coincidence that all those mistakes just happened to be helpful for prosecutors. No intent at all.

 

[RCon]

Yet I also sense a typical reaction here which is to assign deliberate evil intention to the FBI and to government in general. As usual, I suspect mistakes and incompetence are the true culprits rather than design.

Or, you know, desire to improve one's career with a higher conviction rate. This isn't exclusive to the FBI, of course. Most cops and prosecutors fall victim to the same problem.

 

[Tennessee_ATO]

I hate when I have to agree with Jon. False testimony on one piece of evidence does not necessarily equal convicting an innocent defendant.

Clearly it plays a huge role:

In the District, the only jurisdiction where defenders and prosecutors have re-investigated all FBI hair convictions, three of seven defendants whose trials included flawed FBI testimony have been exonerated through DNA testing since 2009, and courts have exonerated two more men. All five served 20 to 30 years in prison for rape or murder.

5 of 7 defendants who had false testimony regarding hair matches in DC were exonerated. Not retried and found not-guilty. Exonerated.And we're not just talking about the 3500 or so cases that the FBI was directly involved in. Those same examiners trained about 1,000 state and local examiners as well. So there's a good chance that all of them were testifying using the same faulty standards.

How many cases were completely circumstantial with the only thing linking the defendant to the crime scene being a hair? My bet is more than we'd like to believe.

But those 7 cases were probably some of the flimiest cases. Trying to project what happened in a handful of cases to thousands of other cases is pretty dicey. Almost all cases have a lot more to them than just forensics, so I would bet the vast majority of the time they still got the right person, especially in cases which capitol punishment was involved. Maybe your assumptions are better than mine, but we really don't have enough facts to make definitive statements. Any case where there are legitimate concerns about the overall evidence in the case, needs to be re-examined.

But not knowing is precisely the issue. People are in prison or were executed and we literally don't know if those convictions were legit. The starting point isn't "guilty unless you can prove otherwise" it's "not guilty unless you can prove otherwise".

 

[Tennessee_ATO]

It sounds like some terrible stuff happened here and there ought to be a full investigation. Grove Diesel is right in suggestimg that the death penalty should perhaps be put on hold while we check the validity of these verdicts; I've made that argument for years.

Yet I also sense a typical reaction here which is to assign deliberate evil intention to the FBI and to government in general. As usual, I suspect mistakes and incompetence are the true culprits rather than design.

One time is a mistake. Hundreds is a pattern of systemic corruption of the process. In other words they lied on purpose to help convict people and it was accepted.

You don't have any idea whether or not they knew if they were overstating the meaning of the results.

Ok. They were breathtakingly incompetent in a systemic way that favored the prosecution. Does that make it better?

 

[renesauz]

This is insane. For over 2 decades FBI examiners used bad science and misleading testimony to send hundreds of innocent people to prison for crimes like rape and murder. Some have probably already been executed (and that right there is the best argument against the death penalty).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/fbi-overstated-forensic-hair-matches-in-nearly-all-criminal-trials-for-decades/2015/04/18/39c8d8c6-e515-11e4-b510-962fcfabc310_story.html

over more than a two-decade period before 2000.

The quoted is a key to this. I don't think I needed an article to know that DNA analysis in the erlier days was a little bit suspect. But that IS NOT THE CASE TODAY, making this a poor argument against the death penalty. (There are good arguments against it, this just isn't one of them)

 

[RCon]

This is insane. For over 2 decades FBI examiners used bad science and misleading testimony to send hundreds of innocent people to prison for crimes like rape and murder. Some have probably already been executed (and that right there is the best argument against the death penalty).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/fbi-overstated-forensic-hair-matches-in-nearly-all-criminal-trials-for-decades/2015/04/18/39c8d8c6-e515-11e4-b510-962fcfabc310_story.html

over more than a two-decade period before 2000.

The quoted is a key to this. I don't think I needed an article to know that DNA analysis in the erlier days was a little bit suspect. But that IS NOT THE CASE TODAY, making this a poor argument against the death penalty. (There are good arguments against it, this just isn't one of them)

How do you know this? Because the government prosecutors tell you so?

 

[RCon]

Different article, same basic topic.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/csi-is-a-lie/390897/

 

[timschochet]

It sounds like some terrible stuff happened here and there ought to be a full investigation. Grove Diesel is right in suggestimg that the death penalty should perhaps be put on hold while we check the validity of these verdicts; I've made that argument for years.

Yet I also sense a typical reaction here which is to assign deliberate evil intention to the FBI and to government in general. As usual, I suspect mistakes and incompetence are the true culprits rather than design.

Every other time this has been revealed, it's always been a detective leaning on a forensics lab to come up with a particular conclusion. That's the only way this ever happens.

"Listen, Doc, this guy did it. We all know it. But his lawyer is getting the search thrown out on a technicality. We know he's the guy, we just need you to do whatever you can to make sure it's clear scientifically that he's the guy. We can't have you talking in probabilities, we need absolutes. We need you to be saying the same thing all the other testimony is going to say."

This isn't an accident or incompetence. It's a guy with his thumb on the scale. It's 100% deliberate.

Not really what I was referring to. I'm sure that what you described happens a lot. I just don't believe it's top down, ordered by above, which seems to be the implication of at least some people here. I probably shouldn't have used the words "mistakes or incompetence"- what I really meant was that I doubt it's a centralized effort.

 

[GroveDiesel]

It sounds like some terrible stuff happened here and there ought to be a full investigation. Grove Diesel is right in suggestimg that the death penalty should perhaps be put on hold while we check the validity of these verdicts; I've made that argument for years.

Yet I also sense a typical reaction here which is to assign deliberate evil intention to the FBI and to government in general. As usual, I suspect mistakes and incompetence are the true culprits rather than design.

Every other time this has been revealed, it's always been a detective leaning on a forensics lab to come up with a particular conclusion. That's the only way this ever happens.

"Listen, Doc, this guy did it. We all know it. But his lawyer is getting the search thrown out on a technicality. We know he's the guy, we just need you to do whatever you can to make sure it's clear scientifically that he's the guy. We can't have you talking in probabilities, we need absolutes. We need you to be saying the same thing all the other testimony is going to say."

This isn't an accident or incompetence. It's a guy with his thumb on the scale. It's 100% deliberate.

Not really what I was referring to. I'm sure that what you described happens a lot. I just don't believe it's top down, ordered by above, which seems to be the implication of at least some people here. I probably shouldn't have used the words "mistakes or incompetence"- what I really meant was that I doubt it's a centralized effort.

Who said it was "top down ordered from above"?

 

[Jack White]

It sounds like some terrible stuff happened here and there ought to be a full investigation. Grove Diesel is right in suggestimg that the death penalty should perhaps be put on hold while we check the validity of these verdicts; I've made that argument for years.

Yet I also sense a typical reaction here which is to assign deliberate evil intention to the FBI and to government in general. As usual, I suspect mistakes and incompetence are the true culprits rather than design.

One time is a mistake. Hundreds is a pattern of systemic corruption of the process. In other words they lied on purpose to help convict people and it was accepted.

I've been trying to point out to you guys for months now that the state is evil and a death cult.

This is merely further evidence of that.

 

[timschochet]

It sounds like some terrible stuff happened here and there ought to be a full investigation. Grove Diesel is right in suggestimg that the death penalty should perhaps be put on hold while we check the validity of these verdicts; I've made that argument for years.

Yet I also sense a typical reaction here which is to assign deliberate evil intention to the FBI and to government in general. As usual, I suspect mistakes and incompetence are the true culprits rather than design.

Every other time this has been revealed, it's always been a detective leaning on a forensics lab to come up with a particular conclusion. That's the only way this ever happens.

"Listen, Doc, this guy did it. We all know it. But his lawyer is getting the search thrown out on a technicality. We know he's the guy, we just need you to do whatever you can to make sure it's clear scientifically that he's the guy. We can't have you talking in probabilities, we need absolutes. We need you to be saying the same thing all the other testimony is going to say."

This isn't an accident or incompetence. It's a guy with his thumb on the scale. It's 100% deliberate.

Not really what I was referring to. I'm sure that what you described happens a lot. I just don't believe it's top down, ordered by above, which seems to be the implication of at least some people here. I probably shouldn't have used the words "mistakes or incompetence"- what I really meant was that I doubt it's a centralized effort.

Who said it was "top down ordered from above"?

You did, in the title of your thread: "FBI sent hundreds of people" etc. As if it was a directed effort, and not certain individuals who screwed with the evidence.

 

[timschochet]

It sounds like some terrible stuff happened here and there ought to be a full investigation. Grove Diesel is right in suggestimg that the death penalty should perhaps be put on hold while we check the validity of these verdicts; I've made that argument for years.

Yet I also sense a typical reaction here which is to assign deliberate evil intention to the FBI and to government in general. As usual, I suspect mistakes and incompetence are the true culprits rather than design.

One time is a mistake. Hundreds is a pattern of systemic corruption of the process. In other words they lied on purpose to help convict people and it was accepted.

I've been trying to point out to you guys for months now that the state is evil and a death cult.

This is merely further evidence of that.

And crap like this.

 

[Tennessee_ATO]

This is insane. For over 2 decades FBI examiners used bad science and misleading testimony to send hundreds of innocent people to prison for crimes like rape and murder. Some have probably already been executed (and that right there is the best argument against the death penalty).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/fbi-overstated-forensic-hair-matches-in-nearly-all-criminal-trials-for-decades/2015/04/18/39c8d8c6-e515-11e4-b510-962fcfabc310_story.html

over more than a two-decade period before 2000.

The quoted is a key to this. I don't think I needed an article to know that DNA analysis in the erlier days was a little bit suspect. But that IS NOT THE CASE TODAY, making this a poor argument against the death penalty. (There are good arguments against it, this just isn't one of them)

The fallacy in your argument is that we always think our current technology is top-notch. It's not until later that we look back and realized it was flawed.

It's not like the public or judges or prosecutors thought the hair analysis sucked balls. They thought it was a great way to conclusively determine guilt/innocence.

 

[Tennessee_ATO]

It sounds like some terrible stuff happened here and there ought to be a full investigation. Grove Diesel is right in suggestimg that the death penalty should perhaps be put on hold while we check the validity of these verdicts; I've made that argument for years.

Yet I also sense a typical reaction here which is to assign deliberate evil intention to the FBI and to government in general. As usual, I suspect mistakes and incompetence are the true culprits rather than design.

Every other time this has been revealed, it's always been a detective leaning on a forensics lab to come up with a particular conclusion. That's the only way this ever happens.

"Listen, Doc, this guy did it. We all know it. But his lawyer is getting the search thrown out on a technicality. We know he's the guy, we just need you to do whatever you can to make sure it's clear scientifically that he's the guy. We can't have you talking in probabilities, we need absolutes. We need you to be saying the same thing all the other testimony is going to say."

This isn't an accident or incompetence. It's a guy with his thumb on the scale. It's 100% deliberate.

Not really what I was referring to. I'm sure that what you described happens a lot. I just don't believe it's top down, ordered by above, which seems to be the implication of at least some people here. I probably shouldn't have used the words "mistakes or incompetence"- what I really meant was that I doubt it's a centralized effort.

I think it's more subtle than that. Typically when you see systemic problems like this, they weren't "ordered" from above. Upper management either incentivizes outcomes without regard to methodology or has poor leadership or some combination of the 2. So, it's "upper" management's "fault" but not necessarily because they order it.

 

[Short Corner]

As usual, I suspect mistakes and incompetence are the true culprits rather than design.

I'll go with blind ambition and career advancement.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

This is insane. For over 2 decades FBI examiners used bad science and misleading testimony to send hundreds of innocent people to prison for crimes like rape and murder. Some have probably already been executed (and that right there is the best argument against the death penalty).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/fbi-overstated-forensic-hair-matches-in-nearly-all-criminal-trials-for-decades/2015/04/18/39c8d8c6-e515-11e4-b510-962fcfabc310_story.html

Well done, Captain Hyperbole.

The FBI errors alone do not mean there was not other evidence of a convict’s guilt. Defendants and federal and state prosecutors in 46 states and the District are being notified to determine whether there are grounds for appeals. Four defendants were previously exonerated.

 

[Short Corner]

This is insane. For over 2 decades FBI examiners used bad science and misleading testimony to send hundreds of innocent people to prison for crimes like rape and murder. Some have probably already been executed (and that right there is the best argument against the death penalty).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/fbi-overstated-forensic-hair-matches-in-nearly-all-criminal-trials-for-decades/2015/04/18/39c8d8c6-e515-11e4-b510-962fcfabc310_story.html

Well done, Captain Hyperbole.

The FBI errors alone do not mean there was not other evidence of a convict’s guilt. Defendants and federal and state prosecutors in 46 states and the District are being notified to determine whether there are grounds for appeals. Four defendants were previously exonerated.

Guilty until proven innocent amirite? Once a government shill always a government shill.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

This is insane. For over 2 decades FBI examiners used bad science and misleading testimony to send hundreds of innocent people to prison for crimes like rape and murder. Some have probably already been executed (and that right there is the best argument against the death penalty).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/fbi-overstated-forensic-hair-matches-in-nearly-all-criminal-trials-for-decades/2015/04/18/39c8d8c6-e515-11e4-b510-962fcfabc310_story.html

Well done, Captain Hyperbole.

The FBI errors alone do not mean there was not other evidence of a convict’s guilt. Defendants and federal and state prosecutors in 46 states and the District are being notified to determine whether there are grounds for appeals. Four defendants were previously exonerated.

Guilty until proven innocent amirite? Once a government shill always a government shill.

Thanks Shortbus, your opinion is always valuable to these forums.

 

[GroveDiesel]

This is insane. For over 2 decades FBI examiners used bad science and misleading testimony to send hundreds of innocent people to prison for crimes like rape and murder. Some have probably already been executed (and that right there is the best argument against the death penalty).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/fbi-overstated-forensic-hair-matches-in-nearly-all-criminal-trials-for-decades/2015/04/18/39c8d8c6-e515-11e4-b510-962fcfabc310_story.html

Well done, Captain Hyperbole.

The FBI errors alone do not mean there was not other evidence of a convicts guilt. Defendants and federal and state prosecutors in 46 states and the District are being notified to determine whether there are grounds for appeals. Four defendants were previously exonerated.

Guilty until proven innocent amirite? Once a government shill always a government shill.

I don't think I ever said that all of the defendants were innocent. But there have already been numerous ones exonerated already, so clearly some of them are.

 

[GroveDiesel]

It sounds like some terrible stuff happened here and there ought to be a full investigation. Grove Diesel is right in suggestimg that the death penalty should perhaps be put on hold while we check the validity of these verdicts; I've made that argument for years.

Yet I also sense a typical reaction here which is to assign deliberate evil intention to the FBI and to government in general. As usual, I suspect mistakes and incompetence are the true culprits rather than design.

Every other time this has been revealed, it's always been a detective leaning on a forensics lab to come up with a particular conclusion. That's the only way this ever happens.

"Listen, Doc, this guy did it. We all know it. But his lawyer is getting the search thrown out on a technicality. We know he's the guy, we just need you to do whatever you can to make sure it's clear scientifically that he's the guy. We can't have you talking in probabilities, we need absolutes. We need you to be saying the same thing all the other testimony is going to say."

This isn't an accident or incompetence. It's a guy with his thumb on the scale. It's 100% deliberate.

Not really what I was referring to. I'm sure that what you described happens a lot. I just don't believe it's top down, ordered by above, which seems to be the implication of at least some people here. I probably shouldn't have used the words "mistakes or incompetence"- what I really meant was that I doubt it's a centralized effort.

Who said it was "top down ordered from above"?

You did, in the title of your thread: "FBI sent hundreds of people" etc. As if it was a directed effort, and not certain individuals who screwed with the evidence.

That makes no sense. Whether it was malice or incompetence, virtually all of the FBIs forensic examiners were giving false/misleading testimony for 30 years. I don't know how you can possibly argue that my thread title is incorrect.Furthermore, they trained up to 1000 other examiners to use the same false/misleading standards.

Whether it is malice or gross incompetence, the fact remains that they are responsible.

 

[George Jefferson Airplane]

It sounds like some terrible stuff happened here and there ought to be a full investigation. Grove Diesel is right in suggestimg that the death penalty should perhaps be put on hold while we check the validity of these verdicts; I've made that argument for years.

Yet I also sense a typical reaction here which is to assign deliberate evil intention to the FBI and to government in general. As usual, I suspect mistakes and incompetence are the true culprits rather than design.

Every other time this has been revealed, it's always been a detective leaning on a forensics lab to come up with a particular conclusion. That's the only way this ever happens.

"Listen, Doc, this guy did it. We all know it. But his lawyer is getting the search thrown out on a technicality. We know he's the guy, we just need you to do whatever you can to make sure it's clear scientifically that he's the guy. We can't have you talking in probabilities, we need absolutes. We need you to be saying the same thing all the other testimony is going to say."

This isn't an accident or incompetence. It's a guy with his thumb on the scale. It's 100% deliberate.

Not really what I was referring to. I'm sure that what you described happens a lot. I just don't believe it's top down, ordered by above, which seems to be the implication of at least some people here. I probably shouldn't have used the words "mistakes or incompetence"- what I really meant was that I doubt it's a centralized effort.

Who said it was "top down ordered from above"?

You did, in the title of your thread: "FBI sent hundreds of people" etc. As if it was a directed effort, and not certain individuals who screwed with the evidence.

That makes no sense. Whether it was malice or incompetence, virtually all of the FBIs forensic examiners were giving false/misleading testimony for 30 years. I don't know how you can possibly argue that my thread title is incorrect.Furthermore, they trained up to 1000 other examiners to use the same false/misleading standards.

Whether it is malice or gross incompetence, the fact remains that they are responsible.

Where in the article does it say hundreds of innocent people were sent to prison? I think I missed that part.

 

[GroveDiesel]

It sounds like some terrible stuff happened here and there ought to be a full investigation. Grove Diesel is right in suggestimg that the death penalty should perhaps be put on hold while we check the validity of these verdicts; I've made that argument for years.

Yet I also sense a typical reaction here which is to assign deliberate evil intention to the FBI and to government in general. As usual, I suspect mistakes and incompetence are the true culprits rather than design.

Every other time this has been revealed, it's always been a detective leaning on a forensics lab to come up with a particular conclusion. That's the only way this ever happens.

"Listen, Doc, this guy did it. We all know it. But his lawyer is getting the search thrown out on a technicality. We know he's the guy, we just need you to do whatever you can to make sure it's clear scientifically that he's the guy. We can't have you talking in probabilities, we need absolutes. We need you to be saying the same thing all the other testimony is going to say."

This isn't an accident or incompetence. It's a guy with his thumb on the scale. It's 100% deliberate.

Not really what I was referring to. I'm sure that what you described happens a lot. I just don't believe it's top down, ordered by above, which seems to be the implication of at least some people here. I probably shouldn't have used the words "mistakes or incompetence"- what I really meant was that I doubt it's a centralized effort.

Who said it was "top down ordered from above"?

You did, in the title of your thread: "FBI sent hundreds of people" etc. As if it was a directed effort, and not certain individuals who screwed with the evidence.

That makes no sense. Whether it was malice or incompetence, virtually all of the FBIs forensic examiners were giving false/misleading testimony for 30 years. I don't know how you can possibly argue that my thread title is incorrect.Furthermore, they trained up to 1000 other examiners to use the same false/misleading standards.

Whether it is malice or gross incompetence, the fact remains that they are responsible.

Where in the article does it say hundreds of innocent people were sent to prison? I think I missed that part.

I took a page out of the FBI's handbook on how I applied statistics. Probably should have included the phrase "may have".

But I don't think it's a stretch. Only one jurisdiction has actually examined all their cases and 5 of the 7 ended up being exonerated. The percentage that are actually innocent is likely much lower than that, but with 3500 cases directly involving FBI testimony plus who knows how many cases involving examiners that those FBI examiners trained, I don't think hundreds is all that unbelievable.

 

[Tennessee_ATO]

It sounds like some terrible stuff happened here and there ought to be a full investigation. Grove Diesel is right in suggestimg that the death penalty should perhaps be put on hold while we check the validity of these verdicts; I've made that argument for years.

Yet I also sense a typical reaction here which is to assign deliberate evil intention to the FBI and to government in general. As usual, I suspect mistakes and incompetence are the true culprits rather than design.

Every other time this has been revealed, it's always been a detective leaning on a forensics lab to come up with a particular conclusion. That's the only way this ever happens.

"Listen, Doc, this guy did it. We all know it. But his lawyer is getting the search thrown out on a technicality. We know he's the guy, we just need you to do whatever you can to make sure it's clear scientifically that he's the guy. We can't have you talking in probabilities, we need absolutes. We need you to be saying the same thing all the other testimony is going to say."

This isn't an accident or incompetence. It's a guy with his thumb on the scale. It's 100% deliberate.

Not really what I was referring to. I'm sure that what you described happens a lot. I just don't believe it's top down, ordered by above, which seems to be the implication of at least some people here. I probably shouldn't have used the words "mistakes or incompetence"- what I really meant was that I doubt it's a centralized effort.

Who said it was "top down ordered from above"?

You did, in the title of your thread: "FBI sent hundreds of people" etc. As if it was a directed effort, and not certain individuals who screwed with the evidence.

That makes no sense. Whether it was malice or incompetence, virtually all of the FBIs forensic examiners were giving false/misleading testimony for 30 years. I don't know how you can possibly argue that my thread title is incorrect.Furthermore, they trained up to 1000 other examiners to use the same false/misleading standards.

Whether it is malice or gross incompetence, the fact remains that they are responsible.

Where in the article does it say hundreds of innocent people were sent to prison? I think I missed that part.

I took a page out of the FBI's handbook on how I applied statistics. Probably should have included the phrase "may have".But I don't think it's a stretch. Only one jurisdiction has actually examined all their cases and 5 of the 7 ended up being exonerated. The percentage that are actually innocent is likely much lower than that, but with 3500 cases directly involving FBI testimony plus who knows how many cases involving examiners that those FBI examiners trained, I don't think hundreds is all that unbelievable.

Hundreds is almost a statistical certainty.

 

[NCCommish]

It sounds like some terrible stuff happened here and there ought to be a full investigation. Grove Diesel is right in suggestimg that the death penalty should perhaps be put on hold while we check the validity of these verdicts; I've made that argument for years.

Yet I also sense a typical reaction here which is to assign deliberate evil intention to the FBI and to government in general. As usual, I suspect mistakes and incompetence are the true culprits rather than design.

One time is a mistake. Hundreds is a pattern of systemic corruption of the process. In other words they lied on purpose to help convict people and it was accepted.

You don't have any idea whether or not they knew if they were overstating the meaning of the results.

Yeah I do they admitted it.

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

Seems really odd that some folks want to defend the FBI in this instance.

 

[Zow]

The Innocence Project rules.

 

[Zow]

Seems really odd that some folks want to defend the FBI in this instance.

Not really. Most people want to believe in our system of justice. Being confronted with the fact that a system you are in favor of has actually executed innocent people is a chilling reality most, understandably, don't want to face or believe.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Seems really odd that some folks want to defend the FBI in this instance.

Who did that? Big difference between defending the FBI and pointing out the flawed assumptions of the OP. Or did you miss that part?

 

[Zow]

It sounds like some terrible stuff happened here and there ought to be a full investigation. Grove Diesel is right in suggestimg that the death penalty should perhaps be put on hold while we check the validity of these verdicts; I've made that argument for years.

Yet I also sense a typical reaction here which is to assign deliberate evil intention to the FBI and to government in general. As usual, I suspect mistakes and incompetence are the true culprits rather than design.

Every other time this has been revealed, it's always been a detective leaning on a forensics lab to come up with a particular conclusion. That's the only way this ever happens.

"Listen, Doc, this guy did it. We all know it. But his lawyer is getting the search thrown out on a technicality. We know he's the guy, we just need you to do whatever you can to make sure it's clear scientifically that he's the guy. We can't have you talking in probabilities, we need absolutes. We need you to be saying the same thing all the other testimony is going to say."

This isn't an accident or incompetence. It's a guy with his thumb on the scale. It's 100% deliberate.

Not really what I was referring to. I'm sure that what you described happens a lot. I just don't believe it's top down, ordered by above, which seems to be the implication of at least some people here. I probably shouldn't have used the words "mistakes or incompetence"- what I really meant was that I doubt it's a centralized effort.

Not in my experience. I'd wager this conversation rarely happens and I can tell you most experts will never speak in absolutes. There's always a percent error.

 

[jonessed]

It sounds like some terrible stuff happened here and there ought to be a full investigation. Grove Diesel is right in suggestimg that the death penalty should perhaps be put on hold while we check the validity of these verdicts; I've made that argument for years.

Yet I also sense a typical reaction here which is to assign deliberate evil intention to the FBI and to government in general. As usual, I suspect mistakes and incompetence are the true culprits rather than design.

Every other time this has been revealed, it's always been a detective leaning on a forensics lab to come up with a particular conclusion. That's the only way this ever happens.

"Listen, Doc, this guy did it. We all know it. But his lawyer is getting the search thrown out on a technicality. We know he's the guy, we just need you to do whatever you can to make sure it's clear scientifically that he's the guy. We can't have you talking in probabilities, we need absolutes. We need you to be saying the same thing all the other testimony is going to say."

This isn't an accident or incompetence. It's a guy with his thumb on the scale. It's 100% deliberate.

Not really what I was referring to. I'm sure that what you described happens a lot. I just don't believe it's top down, ordered by above, which seems to be the implication of at least some people here. I probably shouldn't have used the words "mistakes or incompetence"- what I really meant was that I doubt it's a centralized effort.

Who said it was "top down ordered from above"?

You did, in the title of your thread: "FBI sent hundreds of people" etc. As if it was a directed effort, and not certain individuals who screwed with the evidence.

That makes no sense. Whether it was malice or incompetence, virtually all of the FBIs forensic examiners were giving false/misleading testimony for 30 years. I don't know how you can possibly argue that my thread title is incorrect.Furthermore, they trained up to 1000 other examiners to use the same false/misleading standards.

Whether it is malice or gross incompetence, the fact remains that they are responsible.

Where in the article does it say hundreds of innocent people were sent to prison? I think I missed that part.

I took a page out of the FBI's handbook on how I applied statistics. Probably should have included the phrase "may have".But I don't think it's a stretch. Only one jurisdiction has actually examined all their cases and 5 of the 7 ended up being exonerated. The percentage that are actually innocent is likely much lower than that, but with 3500 cases directly involving FBI testimony plus who knows how many cases involving examiners that those FBI examiners trained, I don't think hundreds is all that unbelievable.

Hundreds is almost a statistical certainty.

 

[jonessed]

It sounds like some terrible stuff happened here and there ought to be a full investigation. Grove Diesel is right in suggestimg that the death penalty should perhaps be put on hold while we check the validity of these verdicts; I've made that argument for years.

Yet I also sense a typical reaction here which is to assign deliberate evil intention to the FBI and to government in general. As usual, I suspect mistakes and incompetence are the true culprits rather than design.

Every other time this has been revealed, it's always been a detective leaning on a forensics lab to come up with a particular conclusion. That's the only way this ever happens.

"Listen, Doc, this guy did it. We all know it. But his lawyer is getting the search thrown out on a technicality. We know he's the guy, we just need you to do whatever you can to make sure it's clear scientifically that he's the guy. We can't have you talking in probabilities, we need absolutes. We need you to be saying the same thing all the other testimony is going to say."

This isn't an accident or incompetence. It's a guy with his thumb on the scale. It's 100% deliberate.

Not really what I was referring to. I'm sure that what you described happens a lot. I just don't believe it's top down, ordered by above, which seems to be the implication of at least some people here. I probably shouldn't have used the words "mistakes or incompetence"- what I really meant was that I doubt it's a centralized effort.

Who said it was "top down ordered from above"?

You did, in the title of your thread: "FBI sent hundreds of people" etc. As if it was a directed effort, and not certain individuals who screwed with the evidence.

That makes no sense. Whether it was malice or incompetence, virtually all of the FBIs forensic examiners were giving false/misleading testimony for 30 years. I don't know how you can possibly argue that my thread title is incorrect.Furthermore, they trained up to 1000 other examiners to use the same false/misleading standards.

Whether it is malice or gross incompetence, the fact remains that they are responsible.

Where in the article does it say hundreds of innocent people were sent to prison? I think I missed that part.

I took a page out of the FBI's handbook on how I applied statistics. Probably should have included the phrase "may have".But I don't think it's a stretch. Only one jurisdiction has actually examined all their cases and 5 of the 7 ended up being exonerated. The percentage that are actually innocent is likely much lower than that, but with 3500 cases directly involving FBI testimony plus who knows how many cases involving examiners that those FBI examiners trained, I don't think hundreds is all that unbelievable.

Hundreds is almost a statistical certainty.