Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (2 Viewers)

[BustedKnuckles]

You appear to be ignoring all items which contradict your position on this case.

Welcome to the thread, Tim. Meet Christo.

(Here's the kicker: Christo really thinks he's guilty, he just likes to argue)

I said in another thread that christo had started that it seems like he just uses us as practice to improve his lawyerly skills...its not working lmao

 

[TexanFan02]

You appear to be ignoring all items which contradict your position on this case.

Welcome to the thread, Tim. Meet Christo.

(Here's the kicker: Christo really thinks he's guilty, he just likes to argue)

I don't think Christo cares one way or the other if Zimmerman is guilty.

I agree with you, but he stated earlier that he thought he was, or probably was. That's also an out, if Zimmerman gets convicted he can say "Yeah, of course, I said that on page 27, duh".

 

[TexanFan02]

CNN just said that there were probably photos, but have not been released yet. Can we call off the dogs for a wee bit longer?

But we're almost at 100 pages!

 

[Christo]

You appear to be ignoring all items which contradict your position on this case.

Welcome to the thread, Tim. Meet Christo.

(Here's the kicker: Christo really thinks he's guilty, he just likes to argue)

When did I say he was guilty? It's been my position from the beginning that we don't have enough information. It's in the realm of possibility that Zimmerman killed Martin in cold blood and is guilty of first degree murder. It's also in the realm of possibility that Zimmerman was completely justified in shooting Martin.

 

[SacramentoBob]

Can we call off the dogs for a wee bit longer?

Zimmerman will just call the cops.

 

[timschochet]

CNN just said that there were probably photos, but have not been released yet. Can we call off the dogs for a wee bit longer?

Not neccesary. If there are photos from the crime scene that show a bloodied Zimmerman, then it's pointless to even arrest him. He would be easily acquitted. Until those photos appear however, I'm skeptical of their existence.

 

[Christo]

I'm still trying to establish how you know he wasn't bloody.

I told you.

The fact that we can see no blood on him on the tape made at the police station does not prove he wasn't bleeding at the scene.

 

[ATC1]

Can we call off the dogs for a wee bit longer?

Zimmerman will just call the cops.

Get a rope.

 

[TexanFan02]

I'm still trying to establish how you know he wasn't bloody.

I told you.

The fact that we can see no blood on him on the tape made at the police station does not prove he wasn't bleeding at the scene.

It proves he didn't have a gash on the back of his head. Which makes one part of the police report suspicious. As well as the lack of grass stains. And I think we can finally put the "broken nose" myth to bed.

 

[SeveredHorseHeads]

It's in the realm of possibility that Zimmerman killed Martin in cold blood and is guilty of first degree murder. It's also in the realm of possibility that Zimmerman was completely justified in shooting Martin.

Super interesting stuff here.

 

[timschochet]

Let's make this simple:

1. Those of you who are inclined to think that Zimmerman is guilty of murder or manslaughter: if photos from the crime scene show up that show that Zimmerman is bloody as he has claimed, or if there is another means to prove this, would you agree that there is no way to convict Zimmerman of a crime, and therefore this issue should be laid to rest?

2. Those of who are inclined to think that either Zimmerman is innocent of wrongdoing, or that there's no way to prove what happened one way or the other: if the funeral director's statement that Martin's body showed no sign of a physical struggle turns out to be provably true, would you agree that Zimmerman must therefore be lying about what happened and that he is, in fact, guilty of murder or manslaughter?

It seems to me that these two points are decisive, and if you are not willing to change your mind as a result of one of them, then you're looking at this issue without reason or justice as your main concern.

 

[jon_mx]

IMHO, Zimmerman is morally guilty of provoking an attack and was not justified to used deadly force. Legally, he is ok.

 

[cstu]

NAncy just said that there were probably photos, but have not been released yet. Can we call off the dogs for a wee bit longer?

Nude?

 

[TexanFan02]

It's in the realm of possibility that Zimmerman killed Martin in cold blood and is guilty of first degree murder. It's also in the realm of possibility that Zimmerman was completely justified in shooting Martin.

Super interesting stuff here.

 

[jon_mx]

Let's make this simple: 1. Those of you who are inclined to think that Zimmerman is guilty of murder or manslaughter: if photos from the crime scene show up that show that Zimmerman is bloody as he has claimed, or if there is another means to prove this, would you agree that there is no way to convict Zimmerman of a crime, and therefore this issue should be laid to rest?2. Those of who are inclined to think that either Zimmerman is innocent of wrongdoing, or that there's no way to prove what happened one way or the other: if the funeral director's statement that Martin's body showed no sign of a physical struggle turns out to be provably true, would you agree that Zimmerman must therefore be lying about what happened and that he is, in fact, guilty of murder or manslaughter?It seems to me that these two points are decisive, and if you are not willing to change your mind as a result of one of them, then you're looking at this issue without reason or justice as your main concern.

I don't see why the funeral director's statement matters in any way. Martin was supposedly the one doing the the beating, and I don't that he is qualified to make such determination anyways.

 

[Christo]

I'm still trying to establish how you know he wasn't bloody.

I told you.

The fact that we can see no blood on him on the tape made at the police station does not prove he wasn't bleeding at the scene.

It proves he didn't have a gash on the back of his head. Which makes one part of the police report suspicious. As well as the lack of grass stains. And I think we can finally put the "broken nose" myth to bed.

Why the need for exaggeration? No one said he had a "gash" on the back of his head. No one said he had grass stains. And I've never seen anything that contradicts that his nose was broken.

 

[Chaos Commish]

What i find funny is ive been saying since my first post, that zimmerman murdered treyvon martin and he didnt have to. Now that ive seen the arrest video im more convinced than ever that zimmerman has lied at every turn to save his ### from going to prison. If he WAS covered in blood and had a broken nose and the back of his head was as injured as he claimed, i would have said i was wrong . I would have said Treyvon was beating him and he shot trey in self defense. I still would say he inadvertanly caused it by following trey , but he shot trey in self defense. Why cant the defenders of zimmerman watch that video and say maybe zimmerman was lying and is full of crap. Its right there in color. Is it pride?

Maybe Zimmerman is lying and is full of crap. Happy now?Also, remember Zimmerman's story had to check out or they had probable cause. If your take is the conspiracy theory cover up by corrupt cops fine. If your take is totally inept cops, fine. I doubt either of those are the case, so regardless of how unscathed he looked after being cleaned up in the back of the squad car, I still think the story he delivered had to have enough support to keep him from being arrested.

 

[TexanFan02]

I'm still trying to establish how you know he wasn't bloody.

I told you.

The fact that we can see no blood on him on the tape made at the police station does not prove he wasn't bleeding at the scene.

It proves he didn't have a gash on the back of his head. Which makes one part of the police report suspicious. As well as the lack of grass stains. And I think we can finally put the "broken nose" myth to bed.

Why the need for exaggeration? No one said he had a "gash" on the back of his head. No one said he had grass stains. And I've never seen anything that contradicts that his nose was broken.

 

[timschochet]

Let's make this simple: 1. Those of you who are inclined to think that Zimmerman is guilty of murder or manslaughter: if photos from the crime scene show up that show that Zimmerman is bloody as he has claimed, or if there is another means to prove this, would you agree that there is no way to convict Zimmerman of a crime, and therefore this issue should be laid to rest?2. Those of who are inclined to think that either Zimmerman is innocent of wrongdoing, or that there's no way to prove what happened one way or the other: if the funeral director's statement that Martin's body showed no sign of a physical struggle turns out to be provably true, would you agree that Zimmerman must therefore be lying about what happened and that he is, in fact, guilty of murder or manslaughter?It seems to me that these two points are decisive, and if you are not willing to change your mind as a result of one of them, then you're looking at this issue without reason or justice as your main concern.

I don't see why the funeral director's statement matters in any way. Martin was supposedly the one doing the the beating, and I don't that he is qualified to make such determination anyways.

Well, your response comes as no surprise to me. Anyone else?

 

[Fennis]

I assume they did an autopsy. The autopsy would note if Martin had bruises or had been in a fight.

 

[TexanFan02]

Let's make this simple: 1. Those of you who are inclined to think that Zimmerman is guilty of murder or manslaughter: if photos from the crime scene show up that show that Zimmerman is bloody as he has claimed, or if there is another means to prove this, would you agree that there is no way to convict Zimmerman of a crime, and therefore this issue should be laid to rest?2. Those of who are inclined to think that either Zimmerman is innocent of wrongdoing, or that there's no way to prove what happened one way or the other: if the funeral director's statement that Martin's body showed no sign of a physical struggle turns out to be provably true, would you agree that Zimmerman must therefore be lying about what happened and that he is, in fact, guilty of murder or manslaughter?It seems to me that these two points are decisive, and if you are not willing to change your mind as a result of one of them, then you're looking at this issue without reason or justice as your main concern.

I don't see why the funeral director's statement matters in any way. Martin was supposedly the one doing the the beating, and I don't that he is qualified to make such determination anyways.

Well, your response comes as no surprise to me. Anyone else?

If 1 is true, it means there was a fight. It doesn't conclusively show that Zimmerman was in fear of great bodily harm enough to kill, but it helps his story. If 2 is true, and Zimmerman didn't have injuries either, pretty sure it's murder of some sort. Probably should have trial to sort all that out.

 

[ATC1]

Let's make this simple: 1. Those of you who are inclined to think that Zimmerman is guilty of murder or manslaughter: if photos from the crime scene show up that show that Zimmerman is bloody as he has claimed, or if there is another means to prove this, would you agree that there is no way to convict Zimmerman of a crime, and therefore this issue should be laid to rest?2. Those of who are inclined to think that either Zimmerman is innocent of wrongdoing, or that there's no way to prove what happened one way or the other: if the funeral director's statement that Martin's body showed no sign of a physical struggle turns out to be provably true, would you agree that Zimmerman must therefore be lying about what happened and that he is, in fact, guilty of murder or manslaughter?It seems to me that these two points are decisive, and if you are not willing to change your mind as a result of one of them, then you're looking at this issue without reason or justice as your main concern.

I guess for 1. It would depend on how much you think Zimmerman claimed to be bleeding. Are you looking for gushing blood, or a scratch. I would guess the most sufficent would be enough to be banged against the ground and start bleeding. But is that not subjective as well? 2. The funeral director's statement is a hit to Zimmerman, but that can be defended by how credible you think John is as a witness, any photos of the injury (brings severity into play here), was there proof of a struggle for the gun, or is there a doctor that confirms Zimmerman's nose was broken.

 

[Fennis]

If we work hard enough we can get to pg 100 by midnight.

51 more pages? Not without Carolina Hustler.

If we can get Tim and that dude in here at the same time, they could knock that out in a couple of hours, no problem.

 

[TexanFan02]

If we work hard enough we can get to pg 100 by midnight.

51 more pages? Not without Carolina Hustler.

If we can get Tim and that dude in here at the same time, they could knock that out in a couple of hours, no problem.

Just think how much more Carolina Hustler would have to post if half the people posting didn't have him on ignore.

 

[Insomniac]

His head and nose didn't look bloody to me.

There's no grass stains on his clothes either.

 

[Chaos Commish]

Zimmerman claimed he was punched one time then had his head slammed to the sidewalk several times. One punch doesn't necessarily damage a hand, nor does slamming someone's head into the ground. The funeral director said nothing important but he too is getting his 15 minutes.

 

[Fennis]

Zimmerman claimed he was punched one time then had his head slammed to the sidewalk several times. One punch doesn't necessarily damage a hand, nor does slamming someone's head into the ground. The funeral director said nothing important but he too is getting his 15 minutes.

So I guess Zimmermans lack of injuries is giving him his 15 minutes?

 

[Chaos Commish]

I assume they did an autopsy. The autopsy would note if Martin had bruises or had been in a fight.

What if he punches someone once and then slammed that person's head into the ground. Will an autopsy show that? I don't see how it could.

 

[Fennis]

I assume they did an autopsy. The autopsy would note if Martin had bruises or had been in a fight.

What if he punches someone once and then slammed that person's head into the ground. Will an autopsy show that? I don't see how it could.

that theory is not consistent with Zimmerman's injuries.

 

[Chaos Commish]

Zimmerman claimed he was punched one time then had his head slammed to the sidewalk several times. One punch doesn't necessarily damage a hand, nor does slamming someone's head into the ground. The funeral director said nothing important but he too is getting his 15 minutes.

So I guess Zimmermans lack of injuries is giving him his 15 minutes?

No Trayvon's lack of damage to his hands is giving this funeral dude 15. Zimmerman is getting life whether sentenced or not.

 

[ATC1]

His head and nose didn't look bloody to me.

There's no grass stains on his clothes either.

Which goes against the police report. Not saying it's wrong. Just waiting to see if there are offical photos. It could be possible his clothes were taken from him at the scene and he put new clothes on. A stretch? Seems like someone was trying to say that before they were stopped for time on Nancy.

 

[timschochet]

Zimmerman claimed he was punched one time then had his head slammed to the sidewalk several times. One punch doesn't necessarily damage a hand, nor does slamming someone's head into the ground. The funeral director said nothing important but he too is getting his 15 minutes.

I really disagree with this. At the very least Martin would have bruises on his hands.

 

[Chaos Commish]

I assume they did an autopsy. The autopsy would note if Martin had bruises or had been in a fight.

What if he punches someone once and then slammed that person's head into the ground. Will an autopsy show that? I don't see how it could.

that theory is not consistent with Zimmerman's injuries.

That's not a theory. That's Zimmerman's defense claim. It proved supportable enough to keep him from being arrested.

 

[Fennis]

I assume they did an autopsy. The autopsy would note if Martin had bruises or had been in a fight.

What if he punches someone once and then slammed that person's head into the ground. Will an autopsy show that? I don't see how it could.

that theory is not consistent with Zimmerman's injuries.

That's not a theory. That's Zimmerman's defense claim. It proved supportable enough to keep him from being arrested.

There are a lot of reason why Zimmerman wasn't arrested. His lack of injuries to back up his defense claim is one of the many reasons he will be convicted.

 

[Chaos Commish]

Zimmerman claimed he was punched one time then had his head slammed to the sidewalk several times. One punch doesn't necessarily damage a hand, nor does slamming someone's head into the ground. The funeral director said nothing important but he too is getting his 15 minutes.

I really disagree with this. At the very least Martin would have bruises on his hands.

No he wouldn't. Zimmerman's story is one punch then his head slammed to the ground. You're making stuff up. Lots of people punch someone in the nose without bruising their hand, Tim. Slamming someone's head on the ground doesn't bruise anything. You just shove the face down with your open hand. The funeral director has nothing.

 

[Christo]

His head and nose didn't look bloody to me.

There's no grass stains on his clothes either.

Which goes against the police report. Not saying it's wrong. Just waiting to see if there are offical photos. It could be possible his clothes were taken from him at the scene and he put new clothes on. A stretch? Seems like someone was trying to say that before they were stopped for time on Nancy.

No, it doesn't. The report says the officer said that Zimmerman's "back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass." No stain is mentioned.

 

[Chaos Commish]

I assume they did an autopsy. The autopsy would note if Martin had bruises or had been in a fight.

What if he punches someone once and then slammed that person's head into the ground. Will an autopsy show that? I don't see how it could.

that theory is not consistent with Zimmerman's injuries.

That's not a theory. That's Zimmerman's defense claim. It proved supportable enough to keep him from being arrested.

There are a lot of reason why Zimmerman wasn't arrested. His lack of injuries to back up his defense claim is one of the many reasons he will be convicted.

Do you know reasons why he wasn't arrested? I haven't heard anything specific.

 

[timschochet]

. His lack of injuries to back up his defense claim is one of the many reasons he will be convicted.

Not enough for me, Fennis. It's damning, but not decisive. If you could prove that there was no physical struggle, that would be decisive. Otherwise, though, there's still room for reasonable doubt.

 

[Christo]

Zimmerman claimed he was punched one time then had his head slammed to the sidewalk several times. One punch doesn't necessarily damage a hand, nor does slamming someone's head into the ground. The funeral director said nothing important but he too is getting his 15 minutes.

I really disagree with this. At the very least Martin would have bruises on his hands.

Now you're a trained coroner.

 

[SeveredHorseHeads]

What if Martin has super thick knuckle skin that prevents him from getting scratched? This is possible so I will weigh it equally against any other scenario.

 

[Fennis]

I assume they did an autopsy. The autopsy would note if Martin had bruises or had been in a fight.

What if he punches someone once and then slammed that person's head into the ground. Will an autopsy show that? I don't see how it could.

that theory is not consistent with Zimmerman's injuries.

That's not a theory. That's Zimmerman's defense claim. It proved supportable enough to keep him from being arrested.

There are a lot of reason why Zimmerman wasn't arrested. His lack of injuries to back up his defense claim is one of the many reasons he will be convicted.

Do you know reasons why he wasn't arrested? I haven't heard anything specific.

The DA didnt think there was enough evidence for a case.

 

[timschochet]

The report says the officer said that Zimmerman's "back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass." No stain is mentioned.

So it's covered in grass but there's no grass stains? This is shtick, right? Gotta be shtick.

 

[timschochet]

Zimmerman claimed he was punched one time then had his head slammed to the sidewalk several times. One punch doesn't necessarily damage a hand, nor does slamming someone's head into the ground. The funeral director said nothing important but he too is getting his 15 minutes.

I really disagree with this. At the very least Martin would have bruises on his hands.

Now you're a trained coroner.

And you're a grass stain expert.

 

[Christo]

The report says the officer said that Zimmerman's "back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass." No stain is mentioned.

So it's covered in grass but there's no grass stains? This is shtick, right? Gotta be shtick.

So now you're a botanist.

 

[ATC1]

His head and nose didn't look bloody to me.

There's no grass stains on his clothes either.

Which goes against the police report. Not saying it's wrong. Just waiting to see if there are offical photos. It could be possible his clothes were taken from him at the scene and he put new clothes on. A stretch? Seems like someone was trying to say that before they were stopped for time on Nancy.

No, it doesn't. The report says the officer said that Zimmerman's "back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass." No stain is mentioned.

Correct. I misspoke. Don't know where grass stains came from except those ready to convict here.

 

[Fennis]

. His lack of injuries to back up his defense claim is one of the many reasons he will be convicted.

Not enough for me, Fennis. It's damning, but not decisive. If you could prove that there was no physical struggle, that would be decisive. Otherwise, though, there's still room for reasonable doubt.

I actually agree, with what we have heard so far its doubtful he will be convicted. I'm not sure I would convict him with the evidence we have heard. But I assume there is more.

 

[Christo]

Zimmerman claimed he was punched one time then had his head slammed to the sidewalk several times. One punch doesn't necessarily damage a hand, nor does slamming someone's head into the ground. The funeral director said nothing important but he too is getting his 15 minutes.

I really disagree with this. At the very least Martin would have bruises on his hands.

Now you're a trained coroner.

And you're a grass stain expert.

No, but I do know how to read.

 

[Chaos Commish]

I assume they did an autopsy. The autopsy would note if Martin had bruises or had been in a fight.

What if he punches someone once and then slammed that person's head into the ground. Will an autopsy show that? I don't see how it could.

that theory is not consistent with Zimmerman's injuries.

That's not a theory. That's Zimmerman's defense claim. It proved supportable enough to keep him from being arrested.

There are a lot of reason why Zimmerman wasn't arrested. His lack of injuries to back up his defense claim is one of the many reasons he will be convicted.

Do you know reasons why he wasn't arrested? I haven't heard anything specific.

The DA didnt think there was enough evidence for a case.

Ok. I thought maybe I missed something more specific. We'll get the indictment for sure and the trial will be interesting I think. I don't trust any of the attorneys I've seen so far so this could be a doozy.

 

[TexanFan02]

I assume they did an autopsy. The autopsy would note if Martin had bruises or had been in a fight.

What if he punches someone once and then slammed that person's head into the ground. Will an autopsy show that? I don't see how it could.

that theory is not consistent with Zimmerman's injuries.

That's not a theory. That's Zimmerman's defense claim. It proved supportable enough to keep him from being arrested.

There are a lot of reason why Zimmerman wasn't arrested. His lack of injuries to back up his defense claim is one of the many reasons he will be convicted.

Do you know reasons why he wasn't arrested? I haven't heard anything specific.

The DA didnt think there was enough evidence for a case.

He didn't think there was enough evidence when the son of a Police lieutenant beat the crap out of homeless black man, either. Until video of it came out and he had to charge him.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Let's make this simple:

2. Those of who are inclined to think that either Zimmerman is innocent of wrongdoing, or that there's no way to prove what happened one way or the other: if the funeral director's statement that Martin's body showed no sign of a physical struggle turns out to be provably true, would you agree that Zimmerman must therefore be lying about what happened and that he is, in fact, guilty of murder or manslaughter?

I'm not really on Zimmerman's side or anyone's other than hopefully the investigation comes to reasonably close narrative of what happened to make the legally correct decisions.That being said, even if Zimmerman's story is factually incorrect in most every aspect, it still doesn't mean he was lying. Even if he is absolutely guilty of manslaughter or even murder it doesn't mean that he doesn't believe his . Considering the evidence of his numerous calls, his recorded calls that day, etc. it seems to me that he suffered from some weird combo of paranoia, delusion, and sense of grandeur that I would easily believe that lying was not one of his sins that evening even if next to nothing he said was true.

Legally, if Zimmerman is actually rather fragile (for whatever reason) such that next to no actual contact equates to a pummeling in his psyche, does that impact the reasonableness of his escalation to pull a gun? This is a question for our legal guys, not a comment.