Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (2 Viewers)

[jon_mx]

Can someone sum up what the two positions are in this case? Is it as cut and dry as:Zimmerman saw a suspicious person in his neighborhood, called the police, they advised him not to follow, he followed him, the youth confronted him in an angry non-violent manner which lead to Zimmerman to fatally shoot him.vs.Zimmerman saw a suspicious person in his neighborhood, called the police, they advised him not to follow, he followed him, the youth confronted him in an angry violent manner by assaulting him, pounding his head against the sidewalk which lead to Zimmerman to fatally shoot him in self-defense.If so did he receive medical treatment at a hospital the same night and have those details been released? I know when I was assaulted I was a bloody mess and the hospital report itself stated: assault/trauma.

Just reading the (PDF) police report. Reading a witness statement from a woman who claims she saw one person chasing another person approx. 10 to 12 feet apart, towards the T in the sidewalk that connects retreatview with twin trees and a fistfight then a shot. She was in her 2nd fl bedroom window. She couldnt tell who was who.Add this in from the state attorneys office and this witness may be key."He runs after this person. He takes him down, and our contention is that he's the aggressor," said state attorney Bernie De La Ronda.

So we have a witness who saw shadows through her blinds from the second story, has no idea who is who, and the state's attorney implies it was Zimmerman. Besides we have Martin's GF who was talking on the phone with him as the confrontation started. There was an exchange of words, then a shove and the phone fell and went dead. That seems more concrete than this shawdow lady.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Can someone sum up what the two positions are in this case? Is it as cut and dry as:Zimmerman saw a suspicious person in his neighborhood, called the police, they advised him not to follow, he followed him, the youth confronted him in an angry non-violent manner which lead to Zimmerman to fatally shoot him.vs.Zimmerman saw a suspicious person in his neighborhood, called the police, they advised him not to follow, he followed him, the youth confronted him in an angry violent manner by assaulting him, pounding his head against the sidewalk which lead to Zimmerman to fatally shoot him in self-defense.If so did he receive medical treatment at a hospital the same night and have those details been released? I know when I was assaulted I was a bloody mess and the hospital report itself stated: assault/trauma.

Just reading the (PDF) police report. Reading a witness statement from a woman who claims she saw one person chasing another person approx. 10 to 12 feet apart, towards the T in the sidewalk that connects retreatview with twin trees and a fistfight then a shot. She was in her 2nd fl bedroom window. She couldnt tell who was who.Add this in from the state attorneys office and this witness may be key."He runs after this person. He takes him down, and our contention is that he's the aggressor," said state attorney Bernie De La Ronda.

pretty vague and inconclusive - it was raining IIRC, I'd bet no testimony is going to hold water to determine who was who. Even the taped interview of the girlfriend stating:

May 18: Recordings of interviews with witnesses are released. In one, Trayvon Martin's girlfriend, talking to him on the telephone, said she heard the teenager saying "get off, get off," in the moments before his cell phone cut off and he was shot dead.

will probably not be allowed in the trial - since she could be lying, it could have been Zimmerman yelling to the kid to get off while he is talking to his GF on the phone. Which is more likely - talking on the phone with 1 hand when some guy is on top of you wailing on you or the other way around. The fact that Zimmerman has lacerations on the back of his head contradicts this piece of evidence. Where was the gun shot wound? Were there any signs of injuries to Martin's head? As far as the cell phone getting cut off, he might have just thrown it when Zimmerman started yelling at him to get off since he didn't want his GF to hear.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Can someone sum up what the two positions are in this case? Is it as cut and dry as:Zimmerman saw a suspicious person in his neighborhood, called the police, they advised him not to follow, he followed him, the youth confronted him in an angry non-violent manner which lead to Zimmerman to fatally shoot him.vs.Zimmerman saw a suspicious person in his neighborhood, called the police, they advised him not to follow, he followed him, the youth confronted him in an angry violent manner by assaulting him, pounding his head against the sidewalk which lead to Zimmerman to fatally shoot him in self-defense.If so did he receive medical treatment at a hospital the same night and have those details been released? I know when I was assaulted I was a bloody mess and the hospital report itself stated: assault/trauma.

Just reading the (PDF) police report. Reading a witness statement from a woman who claims she saw one person chasing another person approx. 10 to 12 feet apart, towards the T in the sidewalk that connects retreatview with twin trees and a fistfight then a shot. She was in her 2nd fl bedroom window. She couldnt tell who was who.Add this in from the state attorneys office and this witness may be key."He runs after this person. He takes him down, and our contention is that he's the aggressor," said state attorney Bernie De La Ronda.

pretty vague and inconclusive - it was raining if IIRC, I'd bet no testimony is going to hold water to determine who was who. Even the taped interview of the girlfriend stating:

May 18: Recordings of interviews with witnesses are released. In one, Trayvon Martin's girlfriend, talking to him on the telephone, said she heard the teenager saying "get off, get off," in the moments before his cell phone cut off and he was shot dead.

will probably not be allowed in the trial - since she could be lying, it could have been Zimmerman yelling to the kid to get off while he is talking to his GF on the phone. Which is more likely - talking on the phone with 1 hand when some guy is on top of you wailing on you or the other way around. The fact that Zimmerman has lacerations on the back of his head contradicts this piece of evidence. Where was the gun shot wound? Were there any signs of injuries to Martin's head? As far as the cell phone getting cut off, he might have just thrown it when Zimmerman started yelling at him to get off since he didn't want his GF to hear.

Reading the autopsy report. The bullet went straight in, no angle.It states that treyvon hieght was 71 inches (thats just under 6 feet) and 158 lbs.Nowhere is there any mention of blood on treyvons hands. If he was holding his hands over zimmermans mouth and nose there would have been blood all over his hands , seeing that the EMT that was at the scene said 45 % of zimmermans head and face were covered in blood.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

It was raining, I'm not sure how hard.

Also you didn't answer my other question - were there any injuries on Martin's face?

When was this picture taken?

http://www.blacknews.com/images/george_zimmerman_injury.jpg

If there was blood over 45% of Zimmerman's head how do people think it got that way?

From Zimmerman's perspective - lying about Martin putting his hands over his mouth/nose. Seems like a stretch. It fits his story that he was repeatedly yelling for help, 911 calls reported someone yelling for help, it only makes sense for Martin to try to stop the yelling.

I have a hard time believing Zimmerman chases after Martin, catches him/struggles, and then Zimmerman gets the snot kicked out of him by Martin WHILE Martin is yelling for help and then Zimmerman shoots Martin. It is not logical and does not make any sense.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Can someone sum up what the two positions are in this case? Is it as cut and dry as:Zimmerman saw a suspicious person in his neighborhood, called the police, they advised him not to follow, he followed him, the youth confronted him in an angry non-violent manner which lead to Zimmerman to fatally shoot him.vs.Zimmerman saw a suspicious person in his neighborhood, called the police, they advised him not to follow, he followed him, the youth confronted him in an angry violent manner by assaulting him, pounding his head against the sidewalk which lead to Zimmerman to fatally shoot him in self-defense.If so did he receive medical treatment at a hospital the same night and have those details been released? I know when I was assaulted I was a bloody mess and the hospital report itself stated: assault/trauma.

Just reading the (PDF) police report. Reading a witness statement from a woman who claims she saw one person chasing another person approx. 10 to 12 feet apart, towards the T in the sidewalk that connects retreatview with twin trees and a fistfight then a shot. She was in her 2nd fl bedroom window. She couldnt tell who was who.Add this in from the state attorneys office and this witness may be key."He runs after this person. He takes him down, and our contention is that he's the aggressor," said state attorney Bernie De La Ronda.

So we have a witness who saw shadows through her blinds from the second story, has no idea who is who, and the state's attorney implies it was Zimmerman. Besides we have Martin's GF who was talking on the phone with him as the confrontation started. There was an exchange of words, then a shove and the phone fell and went dead. That seems more concrete than this shawdow lady.

The point is this totally contradicts zimmermans version of events as they happened

 

[jon_mx]

Can someone sum up what the two positions are in this case? Is it as cut and dry as:Zimmerman saw a suspicious person in his neighborhood, called the police, they advised him not to follow, he followed him, the youth confronted him in an angry non-violent manner which lead to Zimmerman to fatally shoot him.vs.Zimmerman saw a suspicious person in his neighborhood, called the police, they advised him not to follow, he followed him, the youth confronted him in an angry violent manner by assaulting him, pounding his head against the sidewalk which lead to Zimmerman to fatally shoot him in self-defense.If so did he receive medical treatment at a hospital the same night and have those details been released? I know when I was assaulted I was a bloody mess and the hospital report itself stated: assault/trauma.

Just reading the (PDF) police report. Reading a witness statement from a woman who claims she saw one person chasing another person approx. 10 to 12 feet apart, towards the T in the sidewalk that connects retreatview with twin trees and a fistfight then a shot. She was in her 2nd fl bedroom window. She couldnt tell who was who.Add this in from the state attorneys office and this witness may be key."He runs after this person. He takes him down, and our contention is that he's the aggressor," said state attorney Bernie De La Ronda.

So we have a witness who saw shadows through her blinds from the second story, has no idea who is who, and the state's attorney implies it was Zimmerman. Besides we have Martin's GF who was talking on the phone with him as the confrontation started. There was an exchange of words, then a shove and the phone fell and went dead. That seems more concrete than this shawdow lady.

The point is this totally contradicts zimmermans version of events as they happened

Most of the witness accounts contradict each other. That is the nature of the beast.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Can someone sum up what the two positions are in this case? Is it as cut and dry as:Zimmerman saw a suspicious person in his neighborhood, called the police, they advised him not to follow, he followed him, the youth confronted him in an angry non-violent manner which lead to Zimmerman to fatally shoot him.vs.Zimmerman saw a suspicious person in his neighborhood, called the police, they advised him not to follow, he followed him, the youth confronted him in an angry violent manner by assaulting him, pounding his head against the sidewalk which lead to Zimmerman to fatally shoot him in self-defense.If so did he receive medical treatment at a hospital the same night and have those details been released? I know when I was assaulted I was a bloody mess and the hospital report itself stated: assault/trauma.

Just reading the (PDF) police report. Reading a witness statement from a woman who claims she saw one person chasing another person approx. 10 to 12 feet apart, towards the T in the sidewalk that connects retreatview with twin trees and a fistfight then a shot. She was in her 2nd fl bedroom window. She couldnt tell who was who.Add this in from the state attorneys office and this witness may be key."He runs after this person. He takes him down, and our contention is that he's the aggressor," said state attorney Bernie De La Ronda.

So we have a witness who saw shadows through her blinds from the second story, has no idea who is who, and the state's attorney implies it was Zimmerman. Besides we have Martin's GF who was talking on the phone with him as the confrontation started. There was an exchange of words, then a shove and the phone fell and went dead. That seems more concrete than this shawdow lady.

The point is this totally contradicts zimmermans version of events as they happened

Most of the witness accounts contradict each other. That is the nature of the beast.

Which is why zimmerman was arrested, this isnt as clear cut as you would think. Lots of questions need to be answered, is that so bad when an unarmed kid loses his life and the family is suffering?

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Zimmerman was arrested due to public outcry due to a lack of a proper investigation and the fact that the man that died was black resulting in the city arresting Zimmerman to save face. You can think he was arrested due to a preponderance of evidence against him but I am not seeing it yet. I know when I was assaulted the police did 0 to investigate it, I think they were totally at fault for not doing a proper investigation in this case which is why so many people resigned/fired from their positions.

So far the only law I have seen the Zimmerman's break is lying about how much money they had collected to get a lower bail set.

 

[jon_mx]

Can someone sum up what the two positions are in this case? Is it as cut and dry as:Zimmerman saw a suspicious person in his neighborhood, called the police, they advised him not to follow, he followed him, the youth confronted him in an angry non-violent manner which lead to Zimmerman to fatally shoot him.vs.Zimmerman saw a suspicious person in his neighborhood, called the police, they advised him not to follow, he followed him, the youth confronted him in an angry violent manner by assaulting him, pounding his head against the sidewalk which lead to Zimmerman to fatally shoot him in self-defense.If so did he receive medical treatment at a hospital the same night and have those details been released? I know when I was assaulted I was a bloody mess and the hospital report itself stated: assault/trauma.

Just reading the (PDF) police report. Reading a witness statement from a woman who claims she saw one person chasing another person approx. 10 to 12 feet apart, towards the T in the sidewalk that connects retreatview with twin trees and a fistfight then a shot. She was in her 2nd fl bedroom window. She couldnt tell who was who.Add this in from the state attorneys office and this witness may be key."He runs after this person. He takes him down, and our contention is that he's the aggressor," said state attorney Bernie De La Ronda.

So we have a witness who saw shadows through her blinds from the second story, has no idea who is who, and the state's attorney implies it was Zimmerman. Besides we have Martin's GF who was talking on the phone with him as the confrontation started. There was an exchange of words, then a shove and the phone fell and went dead. That seems more concrete than this shawdow lady.

The point is this totally contradicts zimmermans version of events as they happened

Most of the witness accounts contradict each other. That is the nature of the beast.

Which is why zimmerman was arrested, this isnt as clear cut as you would think. Lots of questions need to be answered, is that so bad when an unarmed kid loses his life and the family is suffering?

Our justice system is not suppose to be you arrest people until you find out what happened. Every crime has a victim(s). Do we break rules and apply a different justice system because this family seems more sympathetic?

 

[jon_mx]

Zimmerman was arrested due to public outcry due to a lack of a proper investigation and the fact that the man that died was black resulting in the city arresting Zimmerman to save face. You can think he was arrested due to a preponderance of evidence against him but I am not seeing it yet. I know when I was assaulted the police did 0 to investigate it, I think they were totally at fault for not doing a proper investigation in this case which is why so many people resigned/fired from their positions.

That is a reasonable assessment. If the lead investigator would have had his way, they would have arrested Zimmerman because he did not trust him.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

So now the lemmings are against a citizen being able to employ the lawyer of his choice to defend him against criminal charges brought by the government that if proven could send him to prison for the majority of his life.

No, the lemmings are still giving money to a murderer.

Yeah, all those lemmings who believe a man is innocent until proven guilty.

There are plenty of men out there accused of murder who should be presumed innocent as well who cannot afford a lawyer better than Woz. Is anybody giving them money?

 

[fatness]

Christo did not put any words in anyone's mouth. When you call someone a murderer you are labeling them as guilty.

Think again. I said this.

Zimmerman's lawyer knows that Zimmerman is a cash cow that he's going to keep milking. I believe O"Mara recently bought the house next to his office to expand his business.

Christo didn't like the jab at a lawyer and this was his reply.

So now the lemmings are against a citizen being able to employ the lawyer of his choice to defend him against criminal charges brought by the government that if proven could send him to prison for the majority of his life.

Nobody said anything about not being able to employ a lawyer. I made fun of a lawyer.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Christo did not put any words in anyone's mouth. When you call someone a murderer you are labeling them as guilty.

Think again. I said this.

Zimmerman's lawyer knows that Zimmerman is a cash cow that he's going to keep milking. I believe O"Mara recently bought the house next to his office to expand his business.

Christo didn't like the jab at a lawyer and this was his reply.

So now the lemmings are against a citizen being able to employ the lawyer of his choice to defend him against criminal charges brought by the government that if proven could send him to prison for the majority of his life.

Nobody said anything about not being able to employ a lawyer. I made fun of a lawyer.

You need to reread the post where this was stated, my god people:

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=635707&view=findpost&p=14521895

Texas Fan stated he was a murderer, not you.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Zimmerman was arrested due to public outcry due to a lack of a proper investigation and the fact that the man that died was black resulting in the city arresting Zimmerman to save face. You can think he was arrested due to a preponderance of evidence against him but I am not seeing it yet. I know when I was assaulted the police did 0 to investigate it, I think they were totally at fault for not doing a proper investigation in this case which is why so many people resigned/fired from their positions.

That is a reasonable assessment. If the lead investigator would have had his way, they would have arrested Zimmerman because he did not trust him.

I dont understand how peoples minds work sometimes. There is something wrong with you if you think someone can pick someone out of a crowd and decide you dont like the way they look and target them . Then follow that person and confront them while armed with a gun and that person you targeted ends up shot to death , and all that person wanted was to be left alone while he talked to his GF on a phone. We shouldnt have to worry about some cop wannabe stalking us at night because he felt like it. If treyvon was targeted by a mugger and was killed while being robbed this would not even make a newspaper. Its the fact that he was killed by a person who truely believes he is a superhero of some sort, a crime fighter and he was acting in the name of justice...and he dropped the ball.He killed a 17 yo kid who had every right to be where he was , doing what he was doing.

 

[fatness]

Just reading the (PDF) police report. Reading a witness statement from a woman who claims she saw one person chasing another person approx. 10 to 12 feet apart, towards the T in the sidewalk that connects retreatview with twin trees and a fistfight then a shot. She was in her 2nd fl bedroom window. She couldnt tell who was who.Add this in from the state attorneys office and this witness may be key."He runs after this person. He takes him down, and our contention is that he's the aggressor," said state attorney Bernie De La Ronda.

pretty vague and inconclusive - it was raining IIRC, I'd bet no testimony is going to hold water to determine who was who.

It's vague and inconclusive because it doesn't favor your guy. And then you're off to the races with your speculation that favors him.

 

[fatness]

Christo did not put any words in anyone's mouth.

Which part of that didn't you understand when you typed it?

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Zimmerman was arrested due to public outcry due to a lack of a proper investigation and the fact that the man that died was black resulting in the city arresting Zimmerman to save face. You can think he was arrested due to a preponderance of evidence against him but I am not seeing it yet. I know when I was assaulted the police did 0 to investigate it, I think they were totally at fault for not doing a proper investigation in this case which is why so many people resigned/fired from their positions.

That is a reasonable assessment. If the lead investigator would have had his way, they would have arrested Zimmerman because he did not trust him.

I dont understand how peoples minds work sometimes. There is something wrong with you if you think someone can pick someone out of a crowd and decide you dont like the way they look and target them . Then follow that person and confront them while armed with a gun and that person you targeted ends up shot to death , and all that person wanted was to be left alone while he talked to his GF on a phone. We shouldnt have to worry about some cop wannabe stalking us at night because he felt like it. If treyvon was targeted by a mugger and was killed while being robbed this would not even make a newspaper. Its the fact that he was killed by a person who truely believes he is a superhero of some sort, a crime fighter and he was acting in the name of justice...and he dropped the ball.He killed a 17 yo kid who had every right to be where he was , doing what he was doing.

You left out the assault part which was totally not necessary by Martin.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Just reading the (PDF) police report. Reading a witness statement from a woman who claims she saw one person chasing another person approx. 10 to 12 feet apart, towards the T in the sidewalk that connects retreatview with twin trees and a fistfight then a shot. She was in her 2nd fl bedroom window. She couldnt tell who was who.Add this in from the state attorneys office and this witness may be key."He runs after this person. He takes him down, and our contention is that he's the aggressor," said state attorney Bernie De La Ronda.

pretty vague and inconclusive - it was raining IIRC, I'd bet no testimony is going to hold water to determine who was who.

It's vague and inconclusive because it doesn't favor your guy. And then you're off to the races with your speculation that favors him.

So you can tell me by that description that it is NOT VAGUE who is chasing who?

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Christo did not put any words in anyone's mouth.

Which part of that didn't you understand when you typed it?

Christo did not put any words in anyone's mouth. When you call someone a murderer you are labeling them as guilty.

reread that entire post I linked you troll

 

[Borat]

...so has everyone come to an agreement on what happened?

 

[fatness]

reread that entire post I linked you troll

Don't shoot me bro.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Zimmerman was arrested due to public outcry due to a lack of a proper investigation and the fact that the man that died was black resulting in the city arresting Zimmerman to save face. You can think he was arrested due to a preponderance of evidence against him but I am not seeing it yet. I know when I was assaulted the police did 0 to investigate it, I think they were totally at fault for not doing a proper investigation in this case which is why so many people resigned/fired from their positions.

That is a reasonable assessment. If the lead investigator would have had his way, they would have arrested Zimmerman because he did not trust him.

I dont understand how peoples minds work sometimes. There is something wrong with you if you think someone can pick someone out of a crowd and decide you dont like the way they look and target them . Then follow that person and confront them while armed with a gun and that person you targeted ends up shot to death , and all that person wanted was to be left alone while he talked to his GF on a phone. We shouldnt have to worry about some cop wannabe stalking us at night because he felt like it. If treyvon was targeted by a mugger and was killed while being robbed this would not even make a newspaper. Its the fact that he was killed by a person who truely believes he is a superhero of some sort, a crime fighter and he was acting in the name of justice...and he dropped the ball.He killed a 17 yo kid who had every right to be where he was , doing what he was doing.

You left out the assault part which was totally not necessary by Martin.

we dont know that...all we have is the tesimoney of the guy who started this whole mess in the first place. He isnt going to tell a story that makes himself look guilty is he? Zimmerman has embellished and twisted this event to keep himself out of jail.Thats why the detective serino wnted to arrest zimmerman after his investigation, because of the inconsistancies of his story added with 911 calls and eye witness accounts .If you read the police report and listen to the audio tapes with serino and zimmerman you will understand. Thats why he was arrested after a thourough investigation was done, the only part that was prompted by media attention and public outcry was the investigation itself, not the arrest.

 

[jon_mx]

Zimmerman was arrested due to public outcry due to a lack of a proper investigation and the fact that the man that died was black resulting in the city arresting Zimmerman to save face. You can think he was arrested due to a preponderance of evidence against him but I am not seeing it yet. I know when I was assaulted the police did 0 to investigate it, I think they were totally at fault for not doing a proper investigation in this case which is why so many people resigned/fired from their positions.

That is a reasonable assessment. If the lead investigator would have had his way, they would have arrested Zimmerman because he did not trust him.

I dont understand how peoples minds work sometimes. There is something wrong with you if you think someone can pick someone out of a crowd and decide you dont like the way they look and target them . Then follow that person and confront them while armed with a gun and that person you targeted ends up shot to death , and all that person wanted was to be left alone while he talked to his GF on a phone. We shouldnt have to worry about some cop wannabe stalking us at night because he felt like it. If treyvon was targeted by a mugger and was killed while being robbed this would not even make a newspaper. Its the fact that he was killed by a person who truely believes he is a superhero of some sort, a crime fighter and he was acting in the name of justice...and he dropped the ball.He killed a 17 yo kid who had every right to be where he was , doing what he was doing.

None of this applies to this case. Zimmerman did not pick anyone out of a crowd. Zimmerman watched every unknown person who wandered through their neighborhood. The rest of your post is a bunch of speculation and spin. Way too much emotion and completely lacking any balance or facts.

 

[fatness]

Will Zimmerman have an immunity hearing? The one at which he attempts to show he was standing his ground?

If so, will he testify?

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Just reading the (PDF) police report. Reading a witness statement from a woman who claims she saw one person chasing another person approx. 10 to 12 feet apart, towards the T in the sidewalk that connects retreatview with twin trees and a fistfight then a shot. She was in her 2nd fl bedroom window. She couldnt tell who was who.Add this in from the state attorneys office and this witness may be key."He runs after this person. He takes him down, and our contention is that he's the aggressor," said state attorney Bernie De La Ronda.

pretty vague and inconclusive - it was raining IIRC, I'd bet no testimony is going to hold water to determine who was who.

It's vague and inconclusive because it doesn't favor your guy. And then you're off to the races with your speculation that favors him.

So you can tell me by that description that it is NOT VAGUE who is chasing who?

it doesnt matter...you are concentration on the wrong thing. Zimmerman never mentions a chase, he states that he was approached then assaulted. Thats not what this witness states.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Zimmerman was arrested due to public outcry due to a lack of a proper investigation and the fact that the man that died was black resulting in the city arresting Zimmerman to save face. You can think he was arrested due to a preponderance of evidence against him but I am not seeing it yet. I know when I was assaulted the police did 0 to investigate it, I think they were totally at fault for not doing a proper investigation in this case which is why so many people resigned/fired from their positions.

That is a reasonable assessment. If the lead investigator would have had his way, they would have arrested Zimmerman because he did not trust him.

I dont understand how peoples minds work sometimes. There is something wrong with you if you think someone can pick someone out of a crowd and decide you dont like the way they look and target them . Then follow that person and confront them while armed with a gun and that person you targeted ends up shot to death , and all that person wanted was to be left alone while he talked to his GF on a phone. We shouldnt have to worry about some cop wannabe stalking us at night because he felt like it. If treyvon was targeted by a mugger and was killed while being robbed this would not even make a newspaper. Its the fact that he was killed by a person who truely believes he is a superhero of some sort, a crime fighter and he was acting in the name of justice...and he dropped the ball.He killed a 17 yo kid who had every right to be where he was , doing what he was doing.

None of this applies to this case. Zimmerman did not pick anyone out of a crowd. Zimmerman watched every unknown person who wandered through their neighborhood. The rest of your post is a bunch of speculation and spin. Way too much emotion and completely lacking any balance or facts.

he targeted treyvon.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Zimmerman was arrested due to public outcry due to a lack of a proper investigation and the fact that the man that died was black resulting in the city arresting Zimmerman to save face. You can think he was arrested due to a preponderance of evidence against him but I am not seeing it yet. I know when I was assaulted the police did 0 to investigate it, I think they were totally at fault for not doing a proper investigation in this case which is why so many people resigned/fired from their positions.

That is a reasonable assessment. If the lead investigator would have had his way, they would have arrested Zimmerman because he did not trust him.

I dont understand how peoples minds work sometimes. There is something wrong with you if you think someone can pick someone out of a crowd and decide you dont like the way they look and target them . Then follow that person and confront them while armed with a gun and that person you targeted ends up shot to death , and all that person wanted was to be left alone while he talked to his GF on a phone. We shouldnt have to worry about some cop wannabe stalking us at night because he felt like it. If treyvon was targeted by a mugger and was killed while being robbed this would not even make a newspaper. Its the fact that he was killed by a person who truely believes he is a superhero of some sort, a crime fighter and he was acting in the name of justice...and he dropped the ball.He killed a 17 yo kid who had every right to be where he was , doing what he was doing.

You left out the assault part which was totally not necessary by Martin.

we dont know that...all we have is the tesimoney of the guy who started this whole mess in the first place. He isnt going to tell a story that makes himself look guilty is he? Zimmerman has embellished and twisted this event to keep himself out of jail.Thats why the detective serino wnted to arrest zimmerman after his investigation, because of the inconsistancies of his story added with 911 calls and eye witness accounts .If you read the police report and listen to the audio tapes with serino and zimmerman you will understand. Thats why he was arrested after a thourough investigation was done, the only part that was prompted by media attention and public outcry was the investigation itself, not the arrest.

Is there any evidence to support that Zimmerman physically assaulted Martin? I keep asking this question and all I get are: The pictures, EMT account, and other sources clearly show the wounds that Zimmerman suffered.You can argue all you want that Zimmerman should have just minded his own business and never confronted Martin, but I don't think that is enough to accuse him of 2nd degree murder.

 

[jon_mx]

Zimmerman was arrested due to public outcry due to a lack of a proper investigation and the fact that the man that died was black resulting in the city arresting Zimmerman to save face. You can think he was arrested due to a preponderance of evidence against him but I am not seeing it yet. I know when I was assaulted the police did 0 to investigate it, I think they were totally at fault for not doing a proper investigation in this case which is why so many people resigned/fired from their positions.

That is a reasonable assessment. If the lead investigator would have had his way, they would have arrested Zimmerman because he did not trust him.

I dont understand how peoples minds work sometimes. There is something wrong with you if you think someone can pick someone out of a crowd and decide you dont like the way they look and target them . Then follow that person and confront them while armed with a gun and that person you targeted ends up shot to death , and all that person wanted was to be left alone while he talked to his GF on a phone. We shouldnt have to worry about some cop wannabe stalking us at night because he felt like it. If treyvon was targeted by a mugger and was killed while being robbed this would not even make a newspaper. Its the fact that he was killed by a person who truely believes he is a superhero of some sort, a crime fighter and he was acting in the name of justice...and he dropped the ball.He killed a 17 yo kid who had every right to be where he was , doing what he was doing.

You left out the assault part which was totally not necessary by Martin.

we dont know that...all we have is the tesimoney of the guy who started this whole mess in the first place. He isnt going to tell a story that makes himself look guilty is he? Zimmerman has embellished and twisted this event to keep himself out of jail.Thats why the detective serino wnted to arrest zimmerman after his investigation, because of the inconsistancies of his story added with 911 calls and eye witness accounts .If you read the police report and listen to the audio tapes with serino and zimmerman you will understand. Thats why he was arrested after a thourough investigation was done, the only part that was prompted by media attention and public outcry was the investigation itself, not the arrest.

Not true at all. Evidence that Zimmerman was assaulted:1. Zimmerman's statement

2. Witnesses who saw a man on top of another man beating him.

3. 911 calls of a man screaming for his life

4. Zimmerman's injuries.

You embellish facts far worse than Zimmerman.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Zimmerman was arrested due to public outcry due to a lack of a proper investigation and the fact that the man that died was black resulting in the city arresting Zimmerman to save face. You can think he was arrested due to a preponderance of evidence against him but I am not seeing it yet. I know when I was assaulted the police did 0 to investigate it, I think they were totally at fault for not doing a proper investigation in this case which is why so many people resigned/fired from their positions.

That is a reasonable assessment. If the lead investigator would have had his way, they would have arrested Zimmerman because he did not trust him.

I dont understand how peoples minds work sometimes. There is something wrong with you if you think someone can pick someone out of a crowd and decide you dont like the way they look and target them . Then follow that person and confront them while armed with a gun and that person you targeted ends up shot to death , and all that person wanted was to be left alone while he talked to his GF on a phone. We shouldnt have to worry about some cop wannabe stalking us at night because he felt like it. If treyvon was targeted by a mugger and was killed while being robbed this would not even make a newspaper. Its the fact that he was killed by a person who truely believes he is a superhero of some sort, a crime fighter and he was acting in the name of justice...and he dropped the ball.He killed a 17 yo kid who had every right to be where he was , doing what he was doing.

You left out the assault part which was totally not necessary by Martin.

we dont know that...all we have is the tesimoney of the guy who started this whole mess in the first place. He isnt going to tell a story that makes himself look guilty is he? Zimmerman has embellished and twisted this event to keep himself out of jail.Thats why the detective serino wnted to arrest zimmerman after his investigation, because of the inconsistancies of his story added with 911 calls and eye witness accounts .If you read the police report and listen to the audio tapes with serino and zimmerman you will understand. Thats why he was arrested after a thourough investigation was done, the only part that was prompted by media attention and public outcry was the investigation itself, not the arrest.

Not true at all. Evidence that Zimmerman was assaulted:1. Zimmerman's statement

2. Witnesses who saw a man on top of another man beating him.

3. 911 calls of a man screaming for his life

4. Zimmerman's injuries.

You embellish facts far worse than Zimmerman.

alrighty then...way too nice out to go round and round on here . Have a great day guys.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

alright I'm done feeding the trolls, I am guessing that is why this thread is nearly 300 pages long

 

[jon_mx]

Zimmerman was arrested due to public outcry due to a lack of a proper investigation and the fact that the man that died was black resulting in the city arresting Zimmerman to save face. You can think he was arrested due to a preponderance of evidence against him but I am not seeing it yet. I know when I was assaulted the police did 0 to investigate it, I think they were totally at fault for not doing a proper investigation in this case which is why so many people resigned/fired from their positions.

That is a reasonable assessment. If the lead investigator would have had his way, they would have arrested Zimmerman because he did not trust him.

I dont understand how peoples minds work sometimes. There is something wrong with you if you think someone can pick someone out of a crowd and decide you dont like the way they look and target them . Then follow that person and confront them while armed with a gun and that person you targeted ends up shot to death , and all that person wanted was to be left alone while he talked to his GF on a phone. We shouldnt have to worry about some cop wannabe stalking us at night because he felt like it. If treyvon was targeted by a mugger and was killed while being robbed this would not even make a newspaper. Its the fact that he was killed by a person who truely believes he is a superhero of some sort, a crime fighter and he was acting in the name of justice...and he dropped the ball.He killed a 17 yo kid who had every right to be where he was , doing what he was doing.

None of this applies to this case. Zimmerman did not pick anyone out of a crowd. Zimmerman watched every unknown person who wandered through their neighborhood. The rest of your post is a bunch of speculation and spin. Way too much emotion and completely lacking any balance or facts.

he targeted treyvon.

That is just rhetorical non-sense. You get that info from the physic hotline?

 

[timschochet]

JoJo asked for proof that Zimmerman assaulted Martin. Actually, that's the ONLY proof we have in this case: we know that Zimmerman shot Martin to death. Zimmerman has admitted this fact. Everything else is conjecture.

The fact that Zimmerman shot Martin would be enough to convict Zimmerman except that Zimmerman claims self defense. Zimmerman will have to attempt to prove this claim before a jury, and despite what Jon and others claim, there are plenty of reasons to doubt the veracity of Zimmermans explanation of events. If the jury thinks Zimmerman is lying, he will probably be convicted of at least manslaughter.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

JoJo asked for proof that Zimmerman assaulted Martin. Actually, that's the ONLY proof we have in this case: we know that Zimmerman shot Martin to death. Zimmerman has admitted this fact. Everything else is conjecture.

The fact that Zimmerman shot Martin would be enough to convict Zimmerman except that Zimmerman claims self defense. Zimmerman will have to attempt to prove this claim before a jury, and despite what Jon and others claim, there are plenty of reasons to doubt the veracity of Zimmermans explanation of events. If the jury thinks Zimmerman is lying, he will probably be convicted of at least manslaughter.

Nice way to twist what I asked for. I asked for proof that Zimmerman physically assaulted Martin prior to Martin assaulting Zimmerman which there is plenty of evidence to suggest this happened. I put that in italics since I did not specifically state that in my post but it was very clear what the intent of my question was. There is no question that Zimmerman shot Martin. I also question if the onus is on Zimmerman to prove self-defense at this point, I think it is up to the prosecution to prove otherwise, you know since we live in a society where a man is considered innocent until proven guilty and all....

 

[Christo]

So now the lemmings are against a citizen being able to employ the lawyer of his choice to defend him against criminal charges brought by the government that if proven could send him to prison for the majority of his life.

No, the lemmings are still giving money to a murderer.

Yeah, all those lemmings who believe a man is innocent until proven guilty.

There are plenty of men out there accused of murder who should be presumed innocent as well who cannot afford a lawyer better than Woz. Is anybody giving them money?

I don't know. Do you?

 

[timschochet]

Here's why I lean toward Zimmerman's guilt. From what I know, all of the following statements are true:

1. Zimmerman reported Martin as suspicious, and followed Martin in his car.

2. Zimmerman complained about these guys (thugs) "always getting away."

3. Zimmerman was advised not to follow Martin.

4. At some point Zimmerman got out of his car.

5. Zimmerman was both physically bigger and older than Martin.

6. Zimmerman was armed.

7. Martin was unarmed.

8. Zimmerman shot Martin to death.

Anyone who tries to be objective and accepts the above as facts has to at least begin with the presumption that George Zimmerman is guilty of murder. Zimmerman's defenders argue that Z is innocent due to self-defense; however, all such arguments are based on conjecture: that Martin confronted Zimmerman, that there was a struggle which Martin initiated, that Zimmerman was beneath Martin screaming for help, that Zimmerman received wounds that he at the time considered life-threatening, that Martin told Zimmerman that he, Martin, was going to kill Zimmerman, etc. There isn't proof of ANY of this. All we have are witnesses who are contradictory in their testimony, along with the testimony of Zimmerman himself. And the whole bail funds thing should demonstrate to any reasonable person that Zimmerman is not a trustworthy source of information.

Logically, therefore, there is every reason for me (and I hope, for any reasonable person reading this) to believe that Zimmerman murdered Trayvon Martin. Belief and proof are not the same thing. The prosecution has a much higher standard than I have in this forum, and I have stated several times that, based on what I know, I would have to vote to acquit George Zimmerman if I were on a jury. But since I'm not on the jury, I can use common sense in order to come up with a conclusion about what I THINK happened. And I can further conclude that if anyone reading this actually believes in Zimmerman's probable innocence (instead of probable guilt) you are either not paying attention or you are a victim of your own personal or political agenda.

 

[Christo]

Here's why I lean toward Zimmerman's guilt. From what I know, all of the following statements are true:

1. Zimmerman reported Martin as suspicious, and followed Martin in his car.

2. Zimmerman complained about these guys (thugs) "always getting away."

3. Zimmerman was advised not to follow Martin.

4. At some point Zimmerman got out of his car.

5. Zimmerman was both physically bigger and older than Martin.

6. Zimmerman was armed.

7. Martin was unarmed.

8. Zimmerman shot Martin to death.

Anyone who tries to be objective and accepts the above as facts has to at least begin with the presumption that George Zimmerman is guilty of murder. Zimmerman's defenders argue that Z is innocent due to self-defense; however, all such arguments are based on conjecture: that Martin confronted Zimmerman, that there was a struggle which Martin initiated, that Zimmerman was beneath Martin screaming for help, that Zimmerman received wounds that he at the time considered life-threatening, that Martin told Zimmerman that he, Martin, was going to kill Zimmerman, etc. There isn't proof of ANY of this. All we have are witnesses who are contradictory in their testimony, along with the testimony of Zimmerman himself. And the whole bail funds thing should demonstrate to any reasonable person that Zimmerman is not a trustworthy source of information.

Logically, therefore, there is every reason for me (and I hope, for any reasonable person reading this) to believe that Zimmerman murdered Trayvon Martin. Belief and proof are not the same thing. The prosecution has a much higher standard than I have in this forum, and I have stated several times that, based on what I know, I would have to vote to acquit George Zimmerman if I were on a jury. But since I'm not on the jury, I can use common sense in order to come up with a conclusion about what I THINK happened. And I can further conclude that if anyone reading this actually believes in Zimmerman's probable innocence (instead of probable guilt) you are either not paying attention or you are a victim of your own personal or political agenda.

Holy hell, the presumption is that he's innocent. I notice you list 8 factors but not a single one goes to his state of mind when Zimmerman shot Martin. And that's all that matters.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Tim - have you ever been assaulted to such an extreme that resulted in lacerations in the back of your head requiring stitches, two black eyes and a broken nose?

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Holy hell, the presumption is that he's innocent. I notice you list 8 factors but not a single one goes to his state of mind when Zimmerman shot Martin. And that's all that matters.

He's got to be fishing, the most lopsided presentation of "facts" that I have seen.

 

[timschochet]

JoJo asked for proof that Zimmerman assaulted Martin. Actually, that's the ONLY proof we have in this case: we know that Zimmerman shot Martin to death. Zimmerman has admitted this fact. Everything else is conjecture.

The fact that Zimmerman shot Martin would be enough to convict Zimmerman except that Zimmerman claims self defense. Zimmerman will have to attempt to prove this claim before a jury, and despite what Jon and others claim, there are plenty of reasons to doubt the veracity of Zimmermans explanation of events. If the jury thinks Zimmerman is lying, he will probably be convicted of at least manslaughter.

Nice way to twist what I asked for. I asked for proof that Zimmerman physically assaulted Martin prior to Martin assaulting Zimmerman which there is plenty of evidence to suggest this happened. I put that in italics since I did not specifically state that in my post but it was very clear what the intent of my question was. There is no question that Zimmerman shot Martin. I also question if the onus is on Zimmerman to prove self-defense at this point, I think it is up to the prosecution to prove otherwise, you know since we live in a society where a man is considered innocent until proven guilty and all....

Then I misunderstood you, sorry. No there is no evidence that I know of that would confirm who started the physical confrontation. As far as the bolded, my understanding is that if Zimmerman is going to claim self-defense, he has to at least attempt to prove it (which means he will testify on the stand.) He doesn't has to actually prove it, according to the law if the jury has reasonable doubt about the prosecution's charge, then Zimmerman should be acquitted. Honestly, based on the evidence we have seen so far, I would have to acquit based on reasonable doubt (there may be more evidence at trial.)

But I repeat: even though I personally would acquit, I think the jury will convict if they come to believe this guy is lying. So his testimony, and the cross-examination, are a big deal.

 

[timschochet]

Here's why I lean toward Zimmerman's guilt. From what I know, all of the following statements are true:

1. Zimmerman reported Martin as suspicious, and followed Martin in his car.

2. Zimmerman complained about these guys (thugs) "always getting away."

3. Zimmerman was advised not to follow Martin.

4. At some point Zimmerman got out of his car.

5. Zimmerman was both physically bigger and older than Martin.

6. Zimmerman was armed.

7. Martin was unarmed.

8. Zimmerman shot Martin to death.

Anyone who tries to be objective and accepts the above as facts has to at least begin with the presumption that George Zimmerman is guilty of murder. Zimmerman's defenders argue that Z is innocent due to self-defense; however, all such arguments are based on conjecture: that Martin confronted Zimmerman, that there was a struggle which Martin initiated, that Zimmerman was beneath Martin screaming for help, that Zimmerman received wounds that he at the time considered life-threatening, that Martin told Zimmerman that he, Martin, was going to kill Zimmerman, etc. There isn't proof of ANY of this. All we have are witnesses who are contradictory in their testimony, along with the testimony of Zimmerman himself. And the whole bail funds thing should demonstrate to any reasonable person that Zimmerman is not a trustworthy source of information.

Logically, therefore, there is every reason for me (and I hope, for any reasonable person reading this) to believe that Zimmerman murdered Trayvon Martin. Belief and proof are not the same thing. The prosecution has a much higher standard than I have in this forum, and I have stated several times that, based on what I know, I would have to vote to acquit George Zimmerman if I were on a jury. But since I'm not on the jury, I can use common sense in order to come up with a conclusion about what I THINK happened. And I can further conclude that if anyone reading this actually believes in Zimmerman's probable innocence (instead of probable guilt) you are either not paying attention or you are a victim of your own personal or political agenda.

Holy hell, the presumption is that he's innocent. I notice you list 8 factors but not a single one goes to his state of mind when Zimmerman shot Martin. And that's all that matters.

I'm not in a court of law. How the hell do I know what Zimmerman's state of mind is? I agree with you, if I were in a court of law that's all that would matter, and unless the prosecution could proof otherwise I vote to acquit. But I don't have to be limited to such rules.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

1. Zimmerman reported Martin as suspicious, and followed Martin in his car.2. Zimmerman complained about these guys (thugs) "always getting away."3. Zimmerman was advised not to follow Martin. 4. At some point Zimmerman got out of his car. 5. Zimmerman was both physically bigger and older than Martin. 6. Zimmerman was armed. 7. Martin was unarmed. 8. Zimmerman shot Martin to death.

1. I don't see a problem with this2. It's his opinion, I believe he said punk - again what is wrong with this?3. People will disagree, but being advised not to do something is not breaking the law4. Great5. Define physically bigger, oh you mean fatter? certainly not more athletic, I believe Martin played football6. genius7. bingo8. correctomundoGlad you have everything covered here and did not leave anything out of the stable of evidence and statements that were collected. I'm genuinely curious was it 1 shot or multiple? Not sure how much of a difference it makes.

 

[timschochet]

Tim - have you ever been assaulted to such an extreme that resulted in lacerations in the back of your head requiring stitches, two black eyes and a broken nose?

Not quite. I've had the nose broken and two black eyes, yes. Not the lacerations. What's your point?

 

[timschochet]

1. Zimmerman reported Martin as suspicious, and followed Martin in his car.2. Zimmerman complained about these guys (thugs) "always getting away."3. Zimmerman was advised not to follow Martin. 4. At some point Zimmerman got out of his car. 5. Zimmerman was both physically bigger and older than Martin. 6. Zimmerman was armed. 7. Martin was unarmed. 8. Zimmerman shot Martin to death.

1. I don't see a problem with this2. It's his opinion, I believe he said punk - again what is wrong with this?3. People will disagree, but being advised not to do something is not breaking the law4. Great5. Define physically bigger, oh you mean fatter? certainly not more athletic, I believe Martin plays football6. genius7. bingo8. correctomundoGlad you have everything covered here and did not leave anything out of the stable of evidence and statements that were collected.

What am I leaving out that has been proved? Everything else is conjecture. I don't understand why you would bother to respond to what I wrote on a line by line basis. It's only when you put it all together that you can make a reasonable conclusion.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Tim - have you ever been assaulted to such an extreme that resulted in lacerations in the back of your head requiring stitches, two black eyes and a broken nose?

Not quite. I've had the nose broken and two black eyes, yes. Not the lacerations. What's your point?

Unless you think those lacerations were self-inflicted can't you agree that his situation was life threatening, that he could not defend himself by other means if someone is on top of you bashing your head into the sidewalk? after they have repeatedly punched you in the nose and eyes?

 

[Christo]

Here's why I lean toward Zimmerman's guilt. From what I know, all of the following statements are true:

1. Zimmerman reported Martin as suspicious, and followed Martin in his car.

2. Zimmerman complained about these guys (thugs) "always getting away."

3. Zimmerman was advised not to follow Martin.

4. At some point Zimmerman got out of his car.

5. Zimmerman was both physically bigger and older than Martin.

6. Zimmerman was armed.

7. Martin was unarmed.

8. Zimmerman shot Martin to death.

Anyone who tries to be objective and accepts the above as facts has to at least begin with the presumption that George Zimmerman is guilty of murder. Zimmerman's defenders argue that Z is innocent due to self-defense; however, all such arguments are based on conjecture: that Martin confronted Zimmerman, that there was a struggle which Martin initiated, that Zimmerman was beneath Martin screaming for help, that Zimmerman received wounds that he at the time considered life-threatening, that Martin told Zimmerman that he, Martin, was going to kill Zimmerman, etc. There isn't proof of ANY of this. All we have are witnesses who are contradictory in their testimony, along with the testimony of Zimmerman himself. And the whole bail funds thing should demonstrate to any reasonable person that Zimmerman is not a trustworthy source of information.

Logically, therefore, there is every reason for me (and I hope, for any reasonable person reading this) to believe that Zimmerman murdered Trayvon Martin. Belief and proof are not the same thing. The prosecution has a much higher standard than I have in this forum, and I have stated several times that, based on what I know, I would have to vote to acquit George Zimmerman if I were on a jury. But since I'm not on the jury, I can use common sense in order to come up with a conclusion about what I THINK happened. And I can further conclude that if anyone reading this actually believes in Zimmerman's probable innocence (instead of probable guilt) you are either not paying attention or you are a victim of your own personal or political agenda.

Holy hell, the presumption is that he's innocent. I notice you list 8 factors but not a single one goes to his state of mind when Zimmerman shot Martin. And that's all that matters.

I'm not in a court of law. How the hell do I know what Zimmerman's state of mind is? I agree with you, if I were in a court of law that's all that would matter, and unless the prosecution could proof otherwise I vote to acquit. But I don't have to be limited to such rules.

Yes, in that messed up mind of yours you don't have to follow any rules. But the rest of us are talking about the real world. So when you say "Anyone who tries to be objective and accepts the above as facts has to at least begin with the presumption that George Zimmerman is guilty of murder" I'm applying it to the real world. And in the real world, you are wrong.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

What am I leaving out that has been proved? Everything else is conjecture. I don't understand why you would bother to respond to what I wrote on a line by line basis. It's only when you put it all together that you can make a reasonable conclusion.

The cries for help noted by 7 different calls to 911, the injuries that Zimmerman sustained and documented by EMT on the scene, his statement. Come on man, don't play stupid.

 

[timschochet]

Tim - have you ever been assaulted to such an extreme that resulted in lacerations in the back of your head requiring stitches, two black eyes and a broken nose?

Not quite. I've had the nose broken and two black eyes, yes. Not the lacerations. What's your point?

Unless you think those lacerations were self-inflicted can't you agree that his situation was life threatening, that he could not defend himself by other means if someone is on top of you bashing your head into the sidewalk? after they have repeatedly punched you in the nose and eyes?

No. Because he didn't go to the doctor until the next day, and the medical report (which Busted Knuckles posted) suggest the injuries were pretty light, actually. Now, could Zimmerman have thought at the time that they were life-threatening? Sure. But there's really no way to know one way or the other. And as for the rest of what you wrote, which I bolded, that is unproven conjecture for which we only have Zimmeman's story at this point- he hasn't even formally testified to it. Who the hell knows how much of that actually happened?

 

[timschochet]

Here's why I lean toward Zimmerman's guilt. From what I know, all of the following statements are true:

1. Zimmerman reported Martin as suspicious, and followed Martin in his car.

2. Zimmerman complained about these guys (thugs) "always getting away."

3. Zimmerman was advised not to follow Martin.

4. At some point Zimmerman got out of his car.

5. Zimmerman was both physically bigger and older than Martin.

6. Zimmerman was armed.

7. Martin was unarmed.

8. Zimmerman shot Martin to death.

Anyone who tries to be objective and accepts the above as facts has to at least begin with the presumption that George Zimmerman is guilty of murder. Zimmerman's defenders argue that Z is innocent due to self-defense; however, all such arguments are based on conjecture: that Martin confronted Zimmerman, that there was a struggle which Martin initiated, that Zimmerman was beneath Martin screaming for help, that Zimmerman received wounds that he at the time considered life-threatening, that Martin told Zimmerman that he, Martin, was going to kill Zimmerman, etc. There isn't proof of ANY of this. All we have are witnesses who are contradictory in their testimony, along with the testimony of Zimmerman himself. And the whole bail funds thing should demonstrate to any reasonable person that Zimmerman is not a trustworthy source of information.

Logically, therefore, there is every reason for me (and I hope, for any reasonable person reading this) to believe that Zimmerman murdered Trayvon Martin. Belief and proof are not the same thing. The prosecution has a much higher standard than I have in this forum, and I have stated several times that, based on what I know, I would have to vote to acquit George Zimmerman if I were on a jury. But since I'm not on the jury, I can use common sense in order to come up with a conclusion about what I THINK happened. And I can further conclude that if anyone reading this actually believes in Zimmerman's probable innocence (instead of probable guilt) you are either not paying attention or you are a victim of your own personal or political agenda.

Holy hell, the presumption is that he's innocent. I notice you list 8 factors but not a single one goes to his state of mind when Zimmerman shot Martin. And that's all that matters.

I'm not in a court of law. How the hell do I know what Zimmerman's state of mind is? I agree with you, if I were in a court of law that's all that would matter, and unless the prosecution could proof otherwise I vote to acquit. But I don't have to be limited to such rules.

Yes, in that messed up mind of yours you don't have to follow any rules. But the rest of us are talking about the real world. So when you say "Anyone who tries to be objective and accepts the above as facts has to at least begin with the presumption that George Zimmerman is guilty of murder" I'm applying it to the real world. And in the real world, you are wrong.

No I am not. Your problem is that you think the real world is a court of law. It isn't. Turn off the legal blinders and apply some common sense for once.

 

[timschochet]

What am I leaving out that has been proved? Everything else is conjecture. I don't understand why you would bother to respond to what I wrote on a line by line basis. It's only when you put it all together that you can make a reasonable conclusion.

The cries for help noted by 7 different calls to 911, the injuries that Zimmerman sustained and documented by EMT on the scene, his statement. Come on man, don't play stupid.

1. None of those calls confirm who is crying for help. Martin's family and girlfriend claim it is Martin crying for help. Who knows? At this point there is no proof. 2. See my above post about the injuries that Zimmerman sustained. They are not proof that he feared for his life. 3. Certainly Zimmerman's statement is proof of nothing. So again, this is all conjecture, and all of it is hotly debated, which is completely unlike any of the items I listed. Which is why, again, the only reasonable conclusion to be drawn at this point is that Zimmerman murdered Trayvon Martin.

 

[TexanFan02]

What am I leaving out that has been proved? Everything else is conjecture. I don't understand why you would bother to respond to what I wrote on a line by line basis. It's only when you put it all together that you can make a reasonable conclusion.

The cries for help noted by 7 different calls to 911, the injuries that Zimmerman sustained and documented by EMT on the scene, his statement. Come on man, don't play stupid.

This is what happens when you quit D3? Oy vey.