timschochet
Footballguy
You mean former North Carolina State Senatorial candidate Richard Rivette, an EXTREME conservative, expressed his shock? Imagine that.
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Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Yenrub
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You mean former North Carolina State Senatorial candidate Richard Rivette, an EXTREME conservative, expressed his shock? Imagine that.Anything can happen, but I don't see a conviction on any of the charges. A hung jury is a real possibility. The defense has a lot of good material to make a compelling closing argument.
tdoss
Footballguy
Saw this ridiculous mess being passed around on Facebook...I gotta think even pro-Trayvon guys in this thread have to think this is over the top and downright wreckless:
"I am Travyon Martin. I died at 17...My last screams & cries wasn't enough to save me. All I had was some Skittles & Tea. I did nothing wrong, So why did this man murder me? He called me suspicious & pulled out a gun. Aimed it at me and fired. "Boom!" I fell to my knees & hit the ground. As i took my last breath, my motionless body laid there drowning in a puddle of blood. He claimed self defense. He said I was the aggressor, but he was the one who attacked me. He took my life & has no regret. He walked free & now I'm in a casket, it's not fair. I was only 17 with a pack of Skittles & a Tea. So please tell me why this man had to murder me?" - Justice for Travon Martin Share & LIKE TO SHOW YOUR RESPECT! R.I.P.
P.S. - What day do most think we'll get the verdict? Trying to plan around the...how did Jamie Foxx put it..."indiscriminate violence". I sure hope everyone's local neighborhood watch is armed.
"I am Travyon Martin. I died at 17...My last screams & cries wasn't enough to save me. All I had was some Skittles & Tea. I did nothing wrong, So why did this man murder me? He called me suspicious & pulled out a gun. Aimed it at me and fired. "Boom!" I fell to my knees & hit the ground. As i took my last breath, my motionless body laid there drowning in a puddle of blood. He claimed self defense. He said I was the aggressor, but he was the one who attacked me. He took my life & has no regret. He walked free & now I'm in a casket, it's not fair. I was only 17 with a pack of Skittles & a Tea. So please tell me why this man had to murder me?" - Justice for Travon Martin Share & LIKE TO SHOW YOUR RESPECT! R.I.P.
P.S. - What day do most think we'll get the verdict? Trying to plan around the...how did Jamie Foxx put it..."indiscriminate violence". I sure hope everyone's local neighborhood watch is armed.
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As ridiculous as that sounds in the face of the evidence, that is what many of his defenders believe.
timschochet
Footballguy
You haven't since the trial started. Like me, you're hardly the most objective observer.With manslaughter an option for the jury, they may very well take it. The problem for Zimmerman is what it was from the very beginning: he was armed, and Trayvon Martin wasn't. That's tough for a jury to swallow. (That's tough for me to swallow.) We'll see what happens.
pantherclub
Footballguy
I give credit where credit is due and that is pretty funnyLet me guess, you kept doingwhen the judge was talking.
Gun-owning white women are not going to convict. At best three of the juries will want to convict Zimmerman, not all six. I would bet $100 on that. A lawyer from about 100 pages ago owes me $100 because he guaranteed there would be a plea deal.
With manslaughter an option for the jury, they may very well take it. The problem for Zimmerman is what it was from the very beginning: he was armed, and Trayvon Martin wasn't. That's tough for a jury to swallow. (That's tough for me to swallow.) We'll see what happens.
timschochet
Footballguy
It's a little over the top, but I believe in it's general point. I have all along. It bears repeating, again and again: Trayvon wasn't armed. Zimmerman was. Trayvon is now dead. No matter how you slice this, it's hard to exonerate Zimmerman at the end of the day.
financewonk
Footballguy
I agree with Tim. I think there's a good chance that he's convicted on the manslaughter charge. An unarmed teenager was killed by an armed man, and many people don't think that's okay despite what Florida's self-defense laws may permit. Moreover, most jurors will not understand the law as well as you do, will not be as analytically minded as you are, and so on.Gun-owning white women are not going to convict. At best three of the juries will want to convict Zimmerman, not all six. I would bet $100 on that. A lawyer from about 100 pages ago owes me $100 because he guaranteed there would be a plea deal.
With manslaughter an option for the jury, they may very well take it. The problem for Zimmerman is what it was from the very beginning: he was armed, and Trayvon Martin wasn't. That's tough for a jury to swallow. (That's tough for me to swallow.) We'll see what happens.
Gun-owning women rock and will be very sympathetic to the self-defense angle. I think they will dig in their heels and stand their ground, so to speak, on not guilty.I agree with Tim. I think there's a good chance that he's convicted on the manslaughter charge. An unarmed teenager was killed by an armed man, and many people don't think that's okay despite what Florida's self-defense laws may permit. Moreover, most jurors will not understand the law as well as you do, will not be as analytically minded as you are, and so on.Gun-owning white women are not going to convict. At best three of the juries will want to convict Zimmerman, not all six. I would bet $100 on that. A lawyer from about 100 pages ago owes me $100 because he guaranteed there would be a plea deal.
With manslaughter an option for the jury, they may very well take it. The problem for Zimmerman is what it was from the very beginning: he was armed, and Trayvon Martin wasn't. That's tough for a jury to swallow. (That's tough for me to swallow.) We'll see what happens.
Courtjester
The Town Drunk
One of the best moments I witnessed was a lawyer, after being told to sit down by the judge, continue talking and informing the judge he wasn't talking to him anymore, he was talking to the court reporter and making his record.
It didn't end well for him....
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
zimmerman stated martin was wandering near residences in suspicious manner... any witnesses corroborate that?
based on defense witness testimony yesterday or very recently (that martin was on top of zimmerman), an ABC legal analyst/commentator thought it would be hard for the prosecution to prevail... difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that zimmerman COULDN'T have feared the worst and acted accordingly...
elsewhere it was noted that the decision to not allow a visit to crime scene was unfortunate for prosecution, and when somebody else (legal, journalistic?) did do that, they claimed only five foot visibility, which might seem to call in to question eyewitness testimony... but also not sure if visibility on the night of the death could have been different than later, follow up, independent verification visit?
ambiguous cell transmission screams... am i missing something... don't they have technology to have computerized voice pattern recognition? it would seem like a voice, or a scream attached to said voice would have unique sonic signature (wavelengths, amplitudes, whatever), like just about everything else with humans... fingerprints, teeth, retinal patterns, etc... maybe something about screaming as opposed to talking normally intrinsically blurs some of these elements, renders them less distinct and more difficult to delineate... dunno?
but, it would seem like they could record zimmerman's voice (can't do that with martin, unless they have existing exemplars of him screaming on audio/video), attempt to avoid an audio equivalent of OJs glove chicanery*, record his screams... and there is a match to the time of the killing audio evidence, or there isn't? has this been mentioned in the coverage... it seems plausible given the advanced state of contemporary acoustic science...
* IF WITH HIS VOICE HE TRICKED... YOU MUST CONVICT!
based on defense witness testimony yesterday or very recently (that martin was on top of zimmerman), an ABC legal analyst/commentator thought it would be hard for the prosecution to prevail... difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that zimmerman COULDN'T have feared the worst and acted accordingly...
elsewhere it was noted that the decision to not allow a visit to crime scene was unfortunate for prosecution, and when somebody else (legal, journalistic?) did do that, they claimed only five foot visibility, which might seem to call in to question eyewitness testimony... but also not sure if visibility on the night of the death could have been different than later, follow up, independent verification visit?
ambiguous cell transmission screams... am i missing something... don't they have technology to have computerized voice pattern recognition? it would seem like a voice, or a scream attached to said voice would have unique sonic signature (wavelengths, amplitudes, whatever), like just about everything else with humans... fingerprints, teeth, retinal patterns, etc... maybe something about screaming as opposed to talking normally intrinsically blurs some of these elements, renders them less distinct and more difficult to delineate... dunno?
but, it would seem like they could record zimmerman's voice (can't do that with martin, unless they have existing exemplars of him screaming on audio/video), attempt to avoid an audio equivalent of OJs glove chicanery*, record his screams... and there is a match to the time of the killing audio evidence, or there isn't? has this been mentioned in the coverage... it seems plausible given the advanced state of contemporary acoustic science...
* IF WITH HIS VOICE HE TRICKED... YOU MUST CONVICT!
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Bob Magaw
Footballguy
article by the ABC legal analyst mentioned above...
http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-convicted-murder-manslaughter/story?id=19598422
he states if the jury follows directions, zimmerman won't be convicted of manslaughter, let alone murder (he just mentions in passing possibility of conviction on lesser charge, without addressing liklihood)...
as he alludes to near end (and many in the thread have made explicit), it isn't the same thing as saying the jury won't convict him...
http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-convicted-murder-manslaughter/story?id=19598422
he states if the jury follows directions, zimmerman won't be convicted of manslaughter, let alone murder (he just mentions in passing possibility of conviction on lesser charge, without addressing liklihood)...
as he alludes to near end (and many in the thread have made explicit), it isn't the same thing as saying the jury won't convict him...
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
They will make a pragmatic example of Zimmerman to prevent any political attack on their second amendment rights, And aren't 5 of them mothers? The most important part of this entire trial was Trayvon's older brothers testimony. Not what they said, but the shining example of what was lost.
Of course not, I'm just "speaking out of my
" above to offer an equally "who can possibly know" counterpoint.
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Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
Who pro-Trayvon in the thread?
I don't see how this is any more reckless than the non stop "this entire trial is a joke and disgrace"
. 
It is just a perspective that is largely been not represented, foreign to this thread.Assuming the judge's schedule allows it and I am a sequestered juror I'm trying to get home to family for the weekend.
Arizona Ron
Footballguy
Under Florida Law, you can't initiate a confrontation then claim self-defense.
This was over a long time ago, he's going to jail.
This was over a long time ago, he's going to jail.
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
This was over the moment DiDi Diamonds got her coached testimony wrong and called George a creepy ### cracker rapist instead of a creepy ### cracker racist.
Tracy Martin couldn't contain his laughter nor could the two other black gentlemen sitting behind him.
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
Maybe Zimmerman was watching that movie right before he shot treyvon and that scene stuck ion his head
ArbyMelt
Footballguy
You might want to read the Florida Law instead of listening to the media. I would suggest you google it.
Here is one article to start with
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/05/trayvon-martin-case-does-zimmermans-self-defense-claim-depend-on-who-started-the-fight/
Arizona Ron
Footballguy
Did you go to Hamline? Zimmerman was engaged in unlawful activity. This doesn't apply.
Carolina Hustler
Footballguy
Very unlikely that Zimmerman gets convicted of anything.
Carolina Hustler
Footballguy
What unlawful activity was that? And please link us to your proof that Zimmerman "initiated a confrontation", or any law that uses the words "initiated a confrontation".. You know you have a pretty poor argument when you have to camouflage your wording and pound square pegs in round holes..
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Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
What's the text of the jury instruction regarding self defense?
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Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Defense just got a sidebar!! Boom!
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
It's pretty easy for the Defense to show that Zimmerman had no reasonable means for escape and the combination of the injuries he had sustained and the fact that two neighbors tried to interject the fight but Martin showed no signs of letting up with his assault, easily show that a reasonable person could be in fear of imminent death or great bodily harm.
Arizona Ron
Footballguy
JUSTIFIABLE USE OF DEADLY FORCE
An issue in this case is whether George Zimmerman acted in self-defense. It is a defense to the crime of Second Degree Murder, and the lesser included offense of Manslaughter, if the death of Trayvon Martin resulted from the justifiable use of deadly force.
"Deadly force" means force likely to cause death or great bodily harm.
A person is justified in using deadly force if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself.
In deciding whether George Zimmerman was justified in the use of deadly force, you must judge him by the circumstances by which he was surrounded at the time the force was used. The danger facing George Zimmerman need not have been actual; however, to justify the use of deadly force, the appearance of danger must have been so real that a reasonably cautious and prudent person under the same circumstances would have believed that the danger could be avoided only through the use of that force. Based upon appearances, George Zimmerman must have actually believed that the danger was real.
If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
In considering the issue of self-defense, you may take into account the relative physical abilities and capacities of George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin.
If in your consideration of the issue of self-defense you have a reasonable doubt on the question of whether George Zimmerman was justified in the use of deadly force, you should find George Zimmerman not guilty.
However, if from the evidence you are convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that George Zimmerman was not justified in the use of deadly force, you should find him guilty if all the elements of the charge have been proved.
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
Worm
slimy ninja
Unless these jurors are complete ####### idiots, there is NO WAY they render a verdict today. No way.Who pro-Trayvon in the thread?
I don't see how this is any more reckless than the non stop "this entire trial is a joke and disgrace"
Assuming the judge's schedule allows it and I am a sequestered juror I'm trying to get home to family for the weekend.
Arizona Ron
Footballguy
How about you start with Florida Statutes 784 instead of a news article.
He got out of his car and pursued Martin even when the police told him not to (we have evidence of that).
He got close enough to touch the kid (we have evidence of that).
We was not acting lawful, he was harassing and stalking the kid.
DaVinci
FairTaxguy
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
You are way out of your league here with all of the armchair lawyers that have been going at it for 400+ pages.
There is no evidence that Zimmerman pursued Martin
There is no evidence that Zimmerman stalked Martin
There is no evidence that Zimmerman harassed Martin
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jamny
Footballguy
lod01
Footballguy
Changing my verdict. I knew he would never get murder 2 but manslaughter is quite possible. He's going down. Calling off the riots. Sorry rioters, no free TVs on this one.
What the hell was the state thinking on the Casey Anthony case and that drunk blonde hag case? If you can give options for a lesser charge, why didn't they in those cases?
What the hell was the state thinking on the Casey Anthony case and that drunk blonde hag case? If you can give options for a lesser charge, why didn't they in those cases?
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
This thread needed some new blood to antagonize jon and jojo. The true prop bet should be how many posts you can last.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
So no mention of duty to retreat if you were the aggressor?
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
Rayderr
Footballguy
JFC, the Police never told him any such thing. The 911 operator did. 911 operator <> police.
Arizona Ron
Footballguy
Jail
Book it.
Book it.
