Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (1 Viewer)

[ConstruxBoy]

Have you ever had someone mount you and apply their body weight against your broken nose as they try to suffocate you to death?

People keep coming into the thread assuming the injuries Zimmerman had sustained up to that point HAD to be life threatening injuries, i.e. Zimmerman had to be on the verge of dying. This has been pointed out countless times as being wrong, that is not required in order to claim self-defense in order to be justified in using deadly force. Zimmerman did not need a scratch on him to support claiming self defense.

You're mischaracterizing the argument. It's absolutely true that Zimmerman could have a great self defense claim in the absence of any injuries. If Martin had pulled at a butcher's knife and had advanced on Zimmerman, that would be a great case where there's a reasonable fear of great bodily harm without any injuries.

The argument is that the totality of facts and circumstances, including the fact that Martin was unarmed and that Zimmerman did not, in fact, sustain major injuries, supports the conclusion that a reasonably prudent and careful person probably would not have feared such injuries.

I think this is where many of us disagree. Getting a broken nose from being sucker punched then having your head bashed into the concrete meets my definition of major injuries. I imagine that Zimmerman's eyes were watering, he was disoriented from the sucker punch to the nose, and his adrenaline was racing as he felt he was screaming for his life.

It seems to me that many of you think that George should have just let himself get killed.

Apparently...........George was supposed to calculate how much additional punishment he could take before it would qualify for self-defense.

Like in a video game. How much life force did he have left? 30%?

 

[17seconds]

If someone on the jury asks what the minimum/maximum sentences for Manslaughter is in the state of Florida will the judge tell them?

I assume the jury has laptops and or cell phones with internet service, would it be against the rules for them to try to look up the answer themselves?

Have you watched any of this trial? Everyday the judge tells the jury they cannot use the Internet for any type of research on the case or terms.

holy christ

 

[Billy Bats]

I couldn't figure it out, but there it is...

 

[kentric]

Have you ever had someone mount you and apply their body weight against your broken nose as they try to suffocate you to death?

People keep coming into the thread assuming the injuries Zimmerman had sustained up to that point HAD to be life threatening injuries, i.e. Zimmerman had to be on the verge of dying. This has been pointed out countless times as being wrong, that is not required in order to claim self-defense in order to be justified in using deadly force. Zimmerman did not need a scratch on him to support claiming self defense.

You're mischaracterizing the argument. It's absolutely true that Zimmerman could have a great self defense claim in the absence of any injuries. If Martin had pulled at a butcher's knife and had advanced on Zimmerman, that would be a great case where there's a reasonable fear of great bodily harm without any injuries.

The argument is that the totality of facts and circumstances, including the fact that Martin was unarmed and that Zimmerman did not, in fact, sustain major injuries, supports the conclusion that a reasonably prudent and careful person probably would not have feared such injuries.

I think this is where many of us disagree. Getting a broken nose from being sucker punched then having your head bashed into the concrete meets my definition of major injuries. I imagine that Zimmerman's eyes were watering, he was disoriented from the sucker punch to the nose, and his adrenaline was racing as he felt he was screaming for his life.

It seems to me that many of you think that George should have just let himself get killed.

None of that has ever happened to me, so I can't be sure how I would react in that situation. I do know that I would never be carrying a gun though, and in that case unless I was physically incapable of fighting back I'd be fighting for my life if I thought I was in a life threatening situation. And without a gun I'd be doing everything possible to either protect myself or retaliate against my attacker. I personally find it hard to believe that I couldn't retaliate if my arms weren't pinned down, and even then I'd use my legs to kick the assailant or try anything to get my assailant off me. My guess is that George didn't try very hard because he was counting on help in response to his screams and he was hoping he'd be able to use his gun.

Did you hear the screams laddie (pls imagine Scot accent). I'm not saying TM was an MMA expert, but from all indications, he was a hell of alot closer to be an MMA expert than GZ was to be an effiicient defender. If you watch MMA fights, the individual on top has a clear advantage in the fight. I've seen enough fights where the fighter on the bottom is punched into unconsciousness to know its not a position l would want to be in. The top position can be held for a long period of time during those fights - and that's with guys trained to get out of them.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Have you ever had someone mount you and apply their body weight against your broken nose as they try to suffocate you to death?

People keep coming into the thread assuming the injuries Zimmerman had sustained up to that point HAD to be life threatening injuries, i.e. Zimmerman had to be on the verge of dying. This has been pointed out countless times as being wrong, that is not required in order to claim self-defense in order to be justified in using deadly force. Zimmerman did not need a scratch on him to support claiming self defense.

You're mischaracterizing the argument. It's absolutely true that Zimmerman could have a great self defense claim in the absence of any injuries. If Martin had pulled at a butcher's knife and had advanced on Zimmerman, that would be a great case where there's a reasonable fear of great bodily harm without any injuries.

The argument is that the totality of facts and circumstances, including the fact that Martin was unarmed and that Zimmerman did not, in fact, sustain major injuries, supports the conclusion that a reasonably prudent and careful person probably would not have feared such injuries.

I think this is where many of us disagree. Getting a broken nose from being sucker punched then having your head bashed into the concrete meets my definition of major injuries. I imagine that Zimmerman's eyes were watering, he was disoriented from the sucker punch to the nose, and his adrenaline was racing as he felt he was screaming for his life.

It seems to me that many of you think that George should have just let himself get killed.

In order to accept that George Zimmerman was having his "head bashed into the concrete" (as opposed to scratching his head against the concrete) you have to accept George Zimmerman's story. That aspect of his story is inconsistent with the injuries he sustained. And there's just no credible support for it unless you're inclined to believe his self-interested testimony.

I'm not Joe tough guy, but I have been sucker punched. I have been on the bottom of a fight I was losing. I have thought "Gee, I'm getting my *** kicked here." I have never thought "my life is in peril and the only way out is to shoot my attacker."

And again, my perspective is informed by the law itself. Deadly force is defined as force likely to cause "death or serious bodily injury." A "Deadly Weapon" is a weapon that is likely to cause "death or serious bodily injury." Unless you're Chuck Norris, your fists aren't a deadly weapon. Trayvon Martin's certainly weren't. The jury is not obligated to credit Zimmerman's account, particularly when it is inconsistent with the physical evidence (both Zimmerman's injuries and Trayvon's).

But fists plus the concrete, plus the darkness, plus the ominous rain all go to the mindset of GZ. It's no different than those fun houses that are pitch black where you get touched by a wet sponge. People lose their minds in the dark. No granted, it wasn't that dark, but it was dark, and you add the physical altercation, and in GZ's mind was his life in danger? It really isn't that hard to get there - nor is it hard to get to the point where you can see through GZ's eyes and say, hell, I'm being attacked, on concrete that my head is hitting and it hurts - that's bashing to me.

I missed my 4:30 deadline for the jury. Oh well.

 

[Zow]

If Zimmerman goes to jail, it will be for failure to follow Neighborhood Watch Guidelines.

I would think it has to do more with a kid's death.

But again, I haven't watched the trial.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Will the jury's Q be televised/announced?

Does it suggest anything that the jury is coming back with a Q so quickly?

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

I couldn't figure it out, but there it is...

shopped

 

[Phil Elliott]

Some reports that a juror was wiping away tears when State was doing rebuttal. Who knows. Probably not good for defense.

Also a report that laughter was heard behind the door right before the jurors entered the court this morning.

 

[Doug B]

Will the jury's Q be televised/announced?

Does it suggest anything that the jury is coming back with a Q so quickly?

Also wondering how late the jury will be able to go tonight?

 

[Zow]

Will the jury's Q be televised/announced?

Does it suggest anything that the jury is coming back with a Q so quickly?

1. Don't see why not. It's part of the trial and is public record.

2. Not really, other than the fact that the jury is thinking about things. A stretch would be that it isn't a clear guilty verdict - but I don't think anyone was expecting that. The substance of the question give provide some insight though as to what the jury is talking about/leaning.

But again, I haven't watched any of the trial so I don't really know anything.

 

[Zow]

Have you ever had someone mount you and apply their body weight against your broken nose as they try to suffocate you to death?

People keep coming into the thread assuming the injuries Zimmerman had sustained up to that point HAD to be life threatening injuries, i.e. Zimmerman had to be on the verge of dying. This has been pointed out countless times as being wrong, that is not required in order to claim self-defense in order to be justified in using deadly force. Zimmerman did not need a scratch on him to support claiming self defense.

You're mischaracterizing the argument. It's absolutely true that Zimmerman could have a great self defense claim in the absence of any injuries. If Martin had pulled at a butcher's knife and had advanced on Zimmerman, that would be a great case where there's a reasonable fear of great bodily harm without any injuries.

The argument is that the totality of facts and circumstances, including the fact that Martin was unarmed and that Zimmerman did not, in fact, sustain major injuries, supports the conclusion that a reasonably prudent and careful person probably would not have feared such injuries.

I think this is where many of us disagree. Getting a broken nose from being sucker punched then having your head bashed into the concrete meets my definition of major injuries. I imagine that Zimmerman's eyes were watering, he was disoriented from the sucker punch to the nose, and his adrenaline was racing as he felt he was screaming for his life.

It seems to me that many of you think that George should have just let himself get killed.

In order to accept that George Zimmerman was having his "head bashed into the concrete" (as opposed to scratching his head against the concrete) you have to accept George Zimmerman's story. That aspect of his story is inconsistent with the injuries he sustained. And there's just no credible support for it unless you're inclined to believe his self-interested testimony.

I'm not Joe tough guy, but I have been sucker punched. I have been on the bottom of a fight I was losing. I have thought "Gee, I'm getting my *** kicked here." I have never thought "my life is in peril and the only way out is to shoot my attacker."

And again, my perspective is informed by the law itself. Deadly force is defined as force likely to cause "death or serious bodily injury." A "Deadly Weapon" is a weapon that is likely to cause "death or serious bodily injury." Unless you're Chuck Norris, your fists aren't a deadly weapon. Trayvon Martin's certainly weren't. The jury is not obligated to credit Zimmerman's account, particularly when it is inconsistent with the physical evidence (both Zimmerman's injuries and Trayvon's).

But fists plus the concrete, plus the darkness, plus the ominous rain all go to the mindset of GZ. It's no different than those fun houses that are pitch black where you get touched by a wet sponge. People lose their minds in the dark. No granted, it wasn't that dark, but it was dark, and you add the physical altercation, and in GZ's mind was his life in danger? It really isn't that hard to get there - nor is it hard to get to the point where you can see through GZ's eyes and say, hell, I'm being attacked, on concrete that my head is hitting and it hurts - that's bashing to me.

I missed my 4:30 deadline for the jury. Oh well.

With all due respect, that would have been incredibly fast for these types of charges.

But again, I haven't watched any of the trial and don't know anything. JoJo, who has watched 200+ plus hours of the trial and therefore has to be the expect on all things trial predicted 3:30 and he's way off so this could just be a major upset!

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Will the jury's Q be televised/announced?

Does it suggest anything that the jury is coming back with a Q so quickly?

1. Don't see why not. It's part of the trial and is public record.

2. Not really, other than the fact that the jury is thinking about things. A stretch would be that it isn't a clear guilty verdict - but I don't think anyone was expecting that. The substance of the question give provide some insight though as to what the jury is talking about/leaning.

But again, I haven't watched any of the trial so I don't really know anything.

You are hitting hard liners lately. Nice swing.

 

[kentric]

The other thing I wonder about with the fight scenario is if George heard that 911 was being called, why didn't he just try to protect himself until the cops arrived? His injuries weren't life threatening to the point where he shot Trayvon, couldn't he have just continued to protect himself and keep screaming while he waited a few minutes for the police to arrive? Actually I know the answer to this is that no one would count on the police arriving in a timely manner, but it is something to consider. Also, did Good testify whether he could see George doing anything to protect himself? If his arms weren't pinned down by Trayvon, wouldn't he try to punch/gouge Trayvon, or cover his own head to protect against the punches from Trayvon? If the prosecution didn't ask Good about this it was a mistake.

Have you ever had someone mount you and apply their body weight against your broken nose as they try to suffocate you to death?People keep coming into the thread assuming the injuries Zimmerman had sustained up to that point HAD to be life threatening injuries, i.e. Zimmerman had to be on the verge of dying. This has been pointed out countless times as being wrong, that is not required in order to claim self-defense in order to be justified in using deadly force. Zimmerman did not need a scratch on him to support claiming self defense.

You're mischaracterizing the argument. It's absolutely true that Zimmerman could have a great self defense claim in the absence of any injuries. If Martin had pulled at a butcher's knife and had advanced on Zimmerman, that would be a great case where there's a reasonable fear of great bodily harm without any injuries.

The argument is that the totality of facts and circumstances, including the fact that Martin was unarmed and that Zimmerman did not, in fact, sustain major injuries, supports the conclusion that a reasonably prudent and careful person probably would not have feared such injuries.

No I am not. The argument is: if Zimmerman didn't have life threatening injuries why was his use of deadly force justified as posted by roarlions, you purposefully cut out the post I was replying to. I've added it back in and bolded it for emphasis. You have a habit in this thread of moving the goal posts and quite frankly it is irritating. Your last line is a red herring, one in which you are leaving out vital facts of this case leading to a false conclusion.

Not really following this trial, but this is the first I've heard that he had life threatening injuries. How long was he in the hospital? Life support at all? Surgeries?

If this is true, I can see the self defense argument.

Is it beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ was dazed from the sucker punch (assuming that's how he got the nose) or from having his head hit the concrete (my personal belief is that is happened from the punches to his face - which drove the back of his head to the concrete). I would likely acquit for the reason that we don't know if GZ initiated the confrontation (just getting out of his car and following would not be sufficient for me, he would have had to hit or try to restrain TM) and we don't know GZ's mental condition during the fight. Nor can I remove the potential for TM going for the gun. There has been nothing provided by the prosecution which would remove a reasonable doubt based on the above (and the fact that TM had no damage on him but for his knuckle). It seems obvious that GZ was getting beaten up and, not unlikely that he may have felt his life was in danger.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Have you ever had someone mount you and apply their body weight against your broken nose as they try to suffocate you to death?

People keep coming into the thread assuming the injuries Zimmerman had sustained up to that point HAD to be life threatening injuries, i.e. Zimmerman had to be on the verge of dying. This has been pointed out countless times as being wrong, that is not required in order to claim self-defense in order to be justified in using deadly force. Zimmerman did not need a scratch on him to support claiming self defense.

You're mischaracterizing the argument. It's absolutely true that Zimmerman could have a great self defense claim in the absence of any injuries. If Martin had pulled at a butcher's knife and had advanced on Zimmerman, that would be a great case where there's a reasonable fear of great bodily harm without any injuries.

The argument is that the totality of facts and circumstances, including the fact that Martin was unarmed and that Zimmerman did not, in fact, sustain major injuries, supports the conclusion that a reasonably prudent and careful person probably would not have feared such injuries.

I think this is where many of us disagree. Getting a broken nose from being sucker punched then having your head bashed into the concrete meets my definition of major injuries. I imagine that Zimmerman's eyes were watering, he was disoriented from the sucker punch to the nose, and his adrenaline was racing as he felt he was screaming for his life.

It seems to me that many of you think that George should have just let himself get killed.

In order to accept that George Zimmerman was having his "head bashed into the concrete" (as opposed to scratching his head against the concrete) you have to accept George Zimmerman's story. That aspect of his story is inconsistent with the injuries he sustained. And there's just no credible support for it unless you're inclined to believe his self-interested testimony.

I'm not Joe tough guy, but I have been sucker punched. I have been on the bottom of a fight I was losing. I have thought "Gee, I'm getting my *** kicked here." I have never thought "my life is in peril and the only way out is to shoot my attacker."

And again, my perspective is informed by the law itself. Deadly force is defined as force likely to cause "death or serious bodily injury." A "Deadly Weapon" is a weapon that is likely to cause "death or serious bodily injury." Unless you're Chuck Norris, your fists aren't a deadly weapon. Trayvon Martin's certainly weren't. The jury is not obligated to credit Zimmerman's account, particularly when it is inconsistent with the physical evidence (both Zimmerman's injuries and Trayvon's).

But fists plus the concrete, plus the darkness, plus the ominous rain all go to the mindset of GZ. It's no different than those fun houses that are pitch black where you get touched by a wet sponge. People lose their minds in the dark. No granted, it wasn't that dark, but it was dark, and you add the physical altercation, and in GZ's mind was his life in danger? It really isn't that hard to get there - nor is it hard to get to the point where you can see through GZ's eyes and say, hell, I'm being attacked, on concrete that my head is hitting and it hurts - that's bashing to me.

I missed my 4:30 deadline for the jury. Oh well.

With all due respect, that would have been incredibly fast for these types of charges.

But again, I haven't watched any of the trial and don't know anything. JoJo, who has watched 200+ plus hours of the trial and therefore has to be the expect on all things trial predicted 3:30 and he's way off so this could just be a major upset!

I know. Still it would have been cool to nail the instructions and the verdict.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

jury requested inventory list

 

[Mr Two Cents]

Have you ever had someone mount you and apply their body weight against your broken nose as they try to suffocate you to death?

People keep coming into the thread assuming the injuries Zimmerman had sustained up to that point HAD to be life threatening injuries, i.e. Zimmerman had to be on the verge of dying. This has been pointed out countless times as being wrong, that is not required in order to claim self-defense in order to be justified in using deadly force. Zimmerman did not need a scratch on him to support claiming self defense.

You're mischaracterizing the argument. It's absolutely true that Zimmerman could have a great self defense claim in the absence of any injuries. If Martin had pulled at a butcher's knife and had advanced on Zimmerman, that would be a great case where there's a reasonable fear of great bodily harm without any injuries.

The argument is that the totality of facts and circumstances, including the fact that Martin was unarmed and that Zimmerman did not, in fact, sustain major injuries, supports the conclusion that a reasonably prudent and careful person probably would not have feared such injuries.

I think this is where many of us disagree. Getting a broken nose from being sucker punched then having your head bashed into the concrete meets my definition of major injuries. I imagine that Zimmerman's eyes were watering, he was disoriented from the sucker punch to the nose, and his adrenaline was racing as he felt he was screaming for his life.

It seems to me that many of you think that George should have just let himself get killed.

None of that has ever happened to me, so I can't be sure how I would react in that situation. I do know that I would never be carrying a gun though, and in that case unless I was physically incapable of fighting back I'd be fighting for my life if I thought I was in a life threatening situation. And without a gun I'd be doing everything possible to either protect myself or retaliate against my attacker. I personally find it hard to believe that I couldn't retaliate if my arms weren't pinned down, and even then I'd use my legs to kick the assailant or try anything to get my assailant off me. My guess is that George didn't try very hard because he was counting on help in response to his screams and he was hoping he'd be able to use his gun.

So I guess it follows that if your mother, wife, girlfriend or daughter is being raped and that they did not stop it they did not resist enough?

What a ludicrous and stupid statement.

 

[roarlions]

Have you ever had someone mount you and apply their body weight against your broken nose as they try to suffocate you to death?

People keep coming into the thread assuming the injuries Zimmerman had sustained up to that point HAD to be life threatening injuries, i.e. Zimmerman had to be on the verge of dying. This has been pointed out countless times as being wrong, that is not required in order to claim self-defense in order to be justified in using deadly force. Zimmerman did not need a scratch on him to support claiming self defense.

You're mischaracterizing the argument. It's absolutely true that Zimmerman could have a great self defense claim in the absence of any injuries. If Martin had pulled at a butcher's knife and had advanced on Zimmerman, that would be a great case where there's a reasonable fear of great bodily harm without any injuries.

The argument is that the totality of facts and circumstances, including the fact that Martin was unarmed and that Zimmerman did not, in fact, sustain major injuries, supports the conclusion that a reasonably prudent and careful person probably would not have feared such injuries.

I think this is where many of us disagree. Getting a broken nose from being sucker punched then having your head bashed into the concrete meets my definition of major injuries. I imagine that Zimmerman's eyes were watering, he was disoriented from the sucker punch to the nose, and his adrenaline was racing as he felt he was screaming for his life.

It seems to me that many of you think that George should have just let himself get killed.

None of that has ever happened to me, so I can't be sure how I would react in that situation. I do know that I would never be carrying a gun though, and in that case unless I was physically incapable of fighting back I'd be fighting for my life if I thought I was in a life threatening situation. And without a gun I'd be doing everything possible to either protect myself or retaliate against my attacker. I personally find it hard to believe that I couldn't retaliate if my arms weren't pinned down, and even then I'd use my legs to kick the assailant or try anything to get my assailant off me. My guess is that George didn't try very hard because he was counting on help in response to his screams and he was hoping he'd be able to use his gun.

Did you hear the screams laddie (pls imagine Scot accent). I'm not saying TM was an MMA expert, but from all indications, he was a hell of alot closer to be an MMA expert than GZ was to be an effiicient defender. If you watch MMA fights, the individual on top has a clear advantage in the fight. I've seen enough fights where the fighter on the bottom is punched into unconsciousness to know its not a position l would want to be in. The top position can be held for a long period of time during those fights - and that's with guys trained to get out of them.

Never seen a MMA fight, but I assume that the guy on top is also trained on how to keep someone on the bottom? Are MMA fighters allowed to bite and scratch? Because if I'm in George's position I'm doing both. The fact that Trayvon only had some scratches on his knuckles is another reason why I don't believe George tried to fight back.

 

[tdoss]

Did John Good testify that he shouted that he was going to call 911 before heading back inside? Is it reasonable to assume that both Trayvon and Zimmerman heard that announcement?

There's no way they didn't know the police were on their way. Goes for both Trayvon and George.

If true, seems like it would have been a good time for Trayvon to have tried to get away before the police arrived.

Agreed if he didn't think getting up and running would mean him getting shot in the back or some such. I've struggled with this very point for a while now. It speaks to Martin's discretion as well as Zimmerman's discretion and the feasibility of him being genuinely scared for his life. He called the cops and knows others did to. Martin knew that others called the cops...not sure he knew Zimmerman had called the cops though.

Trayvon could have reacted to the announcement by Good that he was calling 911 by getting up off of George, leaning over him to taunt him, and giving George the chance to grab his gun and shoot him. Would still allow for the description of how he was shot (shirt hanging away from his body, shot at 90 degree angle), while also allowing for the idea that Trayvon was ending the fight (which I think the prosecution suggested). I still don't understand how George had access to his gun if Trayvon was straddling his abdomen.

I'm not suggesting this happened, but perhaps TM repositioned himself on GZ's body and felt the gun on the back side of his thigh? If that was the case, TM was likely to move down GZ's body to be able to grab the gun from in front of his thigh rather than awkwardly reaching back behind his thigh. Of course, if that was the case, you'd have to think that TM would be able to reach the gun before GZ since he was the one moving his body and thefore would have a better feel for when the gun was in range.

He only had two hands. He was "raining down punches MMA style", covering his mouth and nose AND grabbing for the gun?? The more I think about it, the more I believe GZ may have felt his shirt/jacket come up....that's about it.

Personally, I don't believe TM was going for Z's gun either, but rather, that TM hit the gun into Z and that was what drove Z to go for the gun and shoot. As to the punches/smothering, I don't fully discount those actions happening during the course of the altercation. You don't have to do all concurrently for them to be prevalent.

I know Zimmerman's MMA experience has been covered extensively...or lack of prowess thereof...but did anyone ever clarify if Trayvon had training?

Smothering is a typical technique that's used in MMA.

 

[Worm]

Heh. Our first jury question from my case a few weeks ago was very similar.

 

[Zow]

Will the jury's Q be televised/announced?

Does it suggest anything that the jury is coming back with a Q so quickly?

1. Don't see why not. It's part of the trial and is public record.

2. Not really, other than the fact that the jury is thinking about things. A stretch would be that it isn't a clear guilty verdict - but I don't think anyone was expecting that. The substance of the question give provide some insight though as to what the jury is talking about/leaning.

But again, I haven't watched any of the trial so I don't really know anything.

You are hitting hard liners lately. Nice swing.

Haha thanks.

I know normally I'm pretty ######ed on this board, but criminal trials are pretty much what I do for a living. If I can't be decent in a thread like this I'd need to hang up my spikes.

 

[avoiding injuries]

Demonstrators and protestors arriving at the courthouse to support TM. Not happy with the prosecutions efforts.

-CNN

 

[ArbyMelt]

jury requested inventory list

Yes, and rumor is that defense has handed over their complete list, and State has handed over a blank piece of paper. Just rumor.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

With all due respect, that would have been incredibly fast for these types of charges.

But again, I haven't watched any of the trial and don't know anything. JoJo, who has watched 200+ plus hours of the trial and therefore has to be the expect on all things trial predicted 3:30 and he's way off so this could just be a major upset!

Keep bickering from the sidelines, woz, your Tuesday prediction looks like a shoe-in

 

[Mr Two Cents]

The other thing I wonder about with the fight scenario is if George heard that 911 was being called, why didn't he just try to protect himself until the cops arrived? His injuries weren't life threatening to the point where he shot Trayvon, couldn't he have just continued to protect himself and keep screaming while he waited a few minutes for the police to arrive? Actually I know the answer to this is that no one would count on the police arriving in a timely manner, but it is something to consider. Also, did Good testify whether he could see George doing anything to protect himself? If his arms weren't pinned down by Trayvon, wouldn't he try to punch/gouge Trayvon, or cover his own head to protect against the punches from Trayvon? If the prosecution didn't ask Good about this it was a mistake.

Have you ever had someone mount you and apply their body weight against your broken nose as they try to suffocate you to death?People keep coming into the thread assuming the injuries Zimmerman had sustained up to that point HAD to be life threatening injuries, i.e. Zimmerman had to be on the verge of dying. This has been pointed out countless times as being wrong, that is not required in order to claim self-defense in order to be justified in using deadly force. Zimmerman did not need a scratch on him to support claiming self defense.

You're mischaracterizing the argument. It's absolutely true that Zimmerman could have a great self defense claim in the absence of any injuries. If Martin had pulled at a butcher's knife and had advanced on Zimmerman, that would be a great case where there's a reasonable fear of great bodily harm without any injuries.

The argument is that the totality of facts and circumstances, including the fact that Martin was unarmed and that Zimmerman did not, in fact, sustain major injuries, supports the conclusion that a reasonably prudent and careful person probably would not have feared such injuries.

No I am not. The argument is: if Zimmerman didn't have life threatening injuries why was his use of deadly force justified as posted by roarlions, you purposefully cut out the post I was replying to. I've added it back in and bolded it for emphasis. You have a habit in this thread of moving the goal posts and quite frankly it is irritating. Your last line is a red herring, one in which you are leaving out vital facts of this case leading to a false conclusion.

Not really following this trial, but this is the first I've heard that he had life threatening injuries. How long was he in the hospital? Life support at all? Surgeries?

If this is true, I can see the self defense argument.

Would you feel the same way if this was your daughter? What limits are you establishing for your family, dad?

 

[Zow]

Heh. Our first jury question from my case a few weeks ago was very similar.

what was the question(s)?

 

[Zow]

With all due respect, that would have been incredibly fast for these types of charges.

But again, I haven't watched any of the trial and don't know anything. JoJo, who has watched 200+ plus hours of the trial and therefore has to be the expect on all things trial predicted 3:30 and he's way off so this could just be a major upset!

Keep bickering from the sidelines, woz, your Tuesday prediction looks like a shoe-in

Naturally that was all luck given that since I haven't watched any of this trial that I can't possibly possess the knowledge and expertise to make a knowingly educated estimate.

 

[jamny]

Heh. Our first jury question from my case a few weeks ago was very similar.

what was the question(s)?

What time is dinner?

 

[kentric]

Did John Good testify that he shouted that he was going to call 911 before heading back inside? Is it reasonable to assume that both Trayvon and Zimmerman heard that announcement?

There's no way they didn't know the police were on their way. Goes for both Trayvon and George.

If true, seems like it would have been a good time for Trayvon to have tried to get away before the police arrived.

Agreed if he didn't think getting up and running would mean him getting shot in the back or some such. I've struggled with this very point for a while now. It speaks to Martin's discretion as well as Zimmerman's discretion and the feasibility of him being genuinely scared for his life. He called the cops and knows others did to. Martin knew that others called the cops...not sure he knew Zimmerman had called the cops though.

Trayvon could have reacted to the announcement by Good that he was calling 911 by getting up off of George, leaning over him to taunt him, and giving George the chance to grab his gun and shoot him. Would still allow for the description of how he was shot (shirt hanging away from his body, shot at 90 degree angle), while also allowing for the idea that Trayvon was ending the fight (which I think the prosecution suggested). I still don't understand how George had access to his gun if Trayvon was straddling his abdomen.

I'm not suggesting this happened, but perhaps TM repositioned himself on GZ's body and felt the gun on the back side of his thigh? If that was the case, TM was likely to move down GZ's body to be able to grab the gun from in front of his thigh rather than awkwardly reaching back behind his thigh. Of course, if that was the case, you'd have to think that TM would be able to reach the gun before GZ since he was the one moving his body and thefore would have a better feel for when the gun was in range.

He only had two hands. He was "raining down punches MMA style", covering his mouth and nose AND grabbing for the gun?? The more I think about it, the more I believe GZ may have felt his shirt/jacket come up....that's about it.

Personally, I don't believe TM was going for Z's gun either, but rather, that TM hit the gun into Z and that was what drove Z to go for the gun and shoot. As to the punches/smothering, I don't fully discount those actions happening during the course of the altercation. You don't have to do all concurrently for them to be prevalent.

I know Zimmerman's MMA experience has been covered extensively...or lack of prowess thereof...but did anyone ever clarify if Trayvon had training?

Smothering is a typical technique that's used in MMA.

Never heard that TM had any training of any sort - though I'm sure if he did you would have heard it from the media. It was however disclosed that TM had mixed it up before, so he wasn't foreign to fighting.

 

[Joe McGee]

Have you ever had someone mount you and apply their body weight against your broken nose as they try to suffocate you to death?

People keep coming into the thread assuming the injuries Zimmerman had sustained up to that point HAD to be life threatening injuries, i.e. Zimmerman had to be on the verge of dying. This has been pointed out countless times as being wrong, that is not required in order to claim self-defense in order to be justified in using deadly force. Zimmerman did not need a scratch on him to support claiming self defense.

You're mischaracterizing the argument. It's absolutely true that Zimmerman could have a great self defense claim in the absence of any injuries. If Martin had pulled at a butcher's knife and had advanced on Zimmerman, that would be a great case where there's a reasonable fear of great bodily harm without any injuries.

The argument is that the totality of facts and circumstances, including the fact that Martin was unarmed and that Zimmerman did not, in fact, sustain major injuries, supports the conclusion that a reasonably prudent and careful person probably would not have feared such injuries.

I think this is where many of us disagree. Getting a broken nose from being sucker punched then having your head bashed into the concrete meets my definition of major injuries. I imagine that Zimmerman's eyes were watering, he was disoriented from the sucker punch to the nose, and his adrenaline was racing as he felt he was screaming for his life.

It seems to me that many of you think that George should have just let himself get killed.

In order to accept that George Zimmerman was having his "head bashed into the concrete" (as opposed to scratching his head against the concrete) you have to accept George Zimmerman's story. That aspect of his story is inconsistent with the injuries he sustained. And there's just no credible support for it unless you're inclined to believe his self-interested testimony.

I'm not Joe tough guy, but I have been sucker punched. I have been on the bottom of a fight I was losing. I have thought "Gee, I'm getting my *** kicked here." I have never thought "my life is in peril and the only way out is to shoot my attacker."

And again, my perspective is informed by the law itself. Deadly force is defined as force likely to cause "death or serious bodily injury." A "Deadly Weapon" is a weapon that is likely to cause "death or serious bodily injury." Unless you're Chuck Norris, your fists aren't a deadly weapon. Trayvon Martin's certainly weren't. The jury is not obligated to credit Zimmerman's account, particularly when it is inconsistent with the physical evidence (both Zimmerman's injuries and Trayvon's).

I thought the fear of death or serious bodily injury had to be in Zimmerman's mind. I've been inadvertently hit in the nose playing basketball where I couldn't think straight or move right for 30 minutes.

I don't think it's much of a stretch to envision Zimmerman thinking he was a big man with a gun (which Martin didn't know he had) and had the upper hand. If he had called 911 so many times, I would imagine this situation was old hat to him. When Zimmerman got sucker punched and started getting hit on the ground he started crapping his pants.

When no one came to help him, he pulled out the gun and shot Trayvon. I think Trayvon was going Good Will Hunting on Zimmerman's ### and never saw the gun. Unlike the movie, Trayvon was shot and died.

I think Zimmerman was in genuine fear for his life and I think Martin was in genuine shock that he was shot and died. People that reach for a gun or wrestle for a gun don't exclaim, "You shot me!"

Sad and controversial, but ultimately innocent legally speaking. SYG is another matter entirely that needs to be amended.

 

[Worm]

Heh. Our first jury question from my case a few weeks ago was very similar.

what was the question(s)?

Basically asking for a list of all the evidence or just providing all of it to us.Ours was a simple (in comparison) civil case and the evidence was just a big stack of papers.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

With all due respect, that would have been incredibly fast for these types of charges.

But again, I haven't watched any of the trial and don't know anything. JoJo, who has watched 200+ plus hours of the trial and therefore has to be the expect on all things trial predicted 3:30 and he's way off so this could just be a major upset!

Keep bickering from the sidelines, woz, your Tuesday prediction looks like a shoe-in

Naturally that was all luck given that since I haven't watched any of this trial that I can't possibly possess the knowledge and expertise to make a knowingly educated estimate.

Yeah definitely not luck, I forget how many murder trials were you on?

 

[The Commish]

Did John Good testify that he shouted that he was going to call 911 before heading back inside? Is it reasonable to assume that both Trayvon and Zimmerman heard that announcement?

There's no way they didn't know the police were on their way. Goes for both Trayvon and George.

If true, seems like it would have been a good time for Trayvon to have tried to get away before the police arrived.

Agreed if he didn't think getting up and running would mean him getting shot in the back or some such. I've struggled with this very point for a while now. It speaks to Martin's discretion as well as Zimmerman's discretion and the feasibility of him being genuinely scared for his life. He called the cops and knows others did to. Martin knew that others called the cops...not sure he knew Zimmerman had called the cops though.

Trayvon could have reacted to the announcement by Good that he was calling 911 by getting up off of George, leaning over him to taunt him, and giving George the chance to grab his gun and shoot him. Would still allow for the description of how he was shot (shirt hanging away from his body, shot at 90 degree angle), while also allowing for the idea that Trayvon was ending the fight (which I think the prosecution suggested). I still don't understand how George had access to his gun if Trayvon was straddling his abdomen.

They are in a fight. Their positions are not static.

But somehow "who was on top" was the only thing that mattered...the rest was just noise, right?

The only reliable witness indicated TM was on top. That, together with the fact that TM had no injuries (other than to his knuckle) sure makes alot of noise.eta. forgot about the screams for help.

Only means only....not only + a bunch of other things. You wouldn't find my position remotely odd if I told you, that I thought who was on top was the only thing that mattered and followed it up with an acknowledgement that their positions were constantly changing?

The other thing I wonder about with the fight scenario is if George heard that 911 was being called, why didn't he just try to protect himself until the cops arrived? His injuries weren't life threatening to the point where he shot Trayvon, couldn't he have just continued to protect himself and keep screaming while he waited a few minutes for the police to arrive? Actually I know the answer to this is that no one would count on the police arriving in a timely manner, but it is something to consider. Also, did Good testify whether he could see George doing anything to protect himself? If his arms weren't pinned down by Trayvon, wouldn't he try to punch/gouge Trayvon, or cover his own head to protect against the punches from Trayvon? If the prosecution didn't ask Good about this it was a mistake.

I thought about this too, but I'm not sure it matters. The jury's going to have to determine if it was reasonable for Zimmerman to have shot Martin because he thought he was in a serious bind. Part of what you say comes into that. If they find him not guilty then they believe it's reasonable that Zimmerman shot him knowing he had the police on the way and a few others had called the police also. That the time between then and the police getting there was sufficient time to sustain "great bodily injury" or be killed. That's on the jury.

 

[tdoss]

Still find it odd that there's no transcripts of the other 911 calls.

 

[ArbyMelt]

Still find it odd that there's no transcripts of the other 911 calls.

O'Mara said call #6 was in evidence even though they didn't talk about in trial, so I am assuming 6 calls in evidence over last year.

 

[The Commish]

Have you ever had someone mount you and apply their body weight against your broken nose as they try to suffocate you to death?

People keep coming into the thread assuming the injuries Zimmerman had sustained up to that point HAD to be life threatening injuries, i.e. Zimmerman had to be on the verge of dying. This has been pointed out countless times as being wrong, that is not required in order to claim self-defense in order to be justified in using deadly force. Zimmerman did not need a scratch on him to support claiming self defense.

You're mischaracterizing the argument. It's absolutely true that Zimmerman could have a great self defense claim in the absence of any injuries. If Martin had pulled at a butcher's knife and had advanced on Zimmerman, that would be a great case where there's a reasonable fear of great bodily harm without any injuries.

The argument is that the totality of facts and circumstances, including the fact that Martin was unarmed and that Zimmerman did not, in fact, sustain major injuries, supports the conclusion that a reasonably prudent and careful person probably would not have feared such injuries.

No evidence was presented to confirm that Trayvon was trying to suffocate George, all that was presented was muffled screams for help on the 911 call. Even if Trayvon was on top and covering George's mouth, it doesn't mean he was trying to suffocate him. Good testified that he saw Trayvon's arms moving up and down, not pressed over George's mouth and nose trying to suffocate George. There was no evidence that Trayvon was trying to do anything other than prevent George from screaming.

I'm still interested in an explanation of how he could be raining down punches MMA style, trying to suffocate him and grabbing for his gun all at the same time. No one's wanted to tackle that one yet.

 

[tdoss]

Still find it odd that there's no transcripts of the other 911 calls.

O'Mara said call #6 was in evidence even though they didn't talk about in trial, so I am assuming 6 calls in evidence over last year.

I'd really like to hear or read the 911 calls from the witnesses of this thing. I can't believe neither side found anything useful to their position there.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Have you ever had someone mount you and apply their body weight against your broken nose as they try to suffocate you to death?

People keep coming into the thread assuming the injuries Zimmerman had sustained up to that point HAD to be life threatening injuries, i.e. Zimmerman had to be on the verge of dying. This has been pointed out countless times as being wrong, that is not required in order to claim self-defense in order to be justified in using deadly force. Zimmerman did not need a scratch on him to support claiming self defense.

You're mischaracterizing the argument. It's absolutely true that Zimmerman could have a great self defense claim in the absence of any injuries. If Martin had pulled at a butcher's knife and had advanced on Zimmerman, that would be a great case where there's a reasonable fear of great bodily harm without any injuries.

The argument is that the totality of facts and circumstances, including the fact that Martin was unarmed and that Zimmerman did not, in fact, sustain major injuries, supports the conclusion that a reasonably prudent and careful person probably would not have feared such injuries.

I think this is where many of us disagree. Getting a broken nose from being sucker punched then having your head bashed into the concrete meets my definition of major injuries. I imagine that Zimmerman's eyes were watering, he was disoriented from the sucker punch to the nose, and his adrenaline was racing as he felt he was screaming for his life.

It seems to me that many of you think that George should have just let himself get killed.

In order to accept that George Zimmerman was having his "head bashed into the concrete" (as opposed to scratching his head against the concrete) you have to accept George Zimmerman's story. That aspect of his story is inconsistent with the injuries he sustained. And there's just no credible support for it unless you're inclined to believe his self-interested testimony.

I'm not Joe tough guy, but I have been sucker punched. I have been on the bottom of a fight I was losing. I have thought "Gee, I'm getting my *** kicked here." I have never thought "my life is in peril and the only way out is to shoot my attacker."

And again, my perspective is informed by the law itself. Deadly force is defined as force likely to cause "death or serious bodily injury." A "Deadly Weapon" is a weapon that is likely to cause "death or serious bodily injury." Unless you're Chuck Norris, your fists aren't a deadly weapon. Trayvon Martin's certainly weren't. The jury is not obligated to credit Zimmerman's account, particularly when it is inconsistent with the physical evidence (both Zimmerman's injuries and Trayvon's).

I thought the fear of death or serious bodily injury had to be in Zimmerman's mind. I've been inadvertently hit in the nose playing basketball where I couldn't think straight or move right for 30 minutes.

I don't think it's much of a stretch to envision Zimmerman thinking he was a big man with a gun (which Martin didn't know he had) and had the upper hand. If he had called 911 so many times, I would imagine this situation was old hat to him. When Zimmerman got sucker punched and started getting hit on the ground he started crapping his pants.

When no one came to help him, he pulled out the gun and shot Trayvon. I think Trayvon was going Good Will Hunting on Zimmerman's ### and never saw the gun. Unlike the movie, Trayvon was shot and died.

No, it has to be a "reasonable" fear. It's an objective standard, not a subjective one.

I don't see think the "Zimmerman wasn't thinking straight" narrative comports with the evidence either. I imagine it would take some concerted effort to pull a gun out of his waistband, put it in position to shoot, and land a hit to center mass in that situation. Far more effort than to cover up and protect your head, for instance.

Again, my position is informed by the reality that self-defense has traditionally been hard to prevail upon, and IMO SHOULD be hard to prevail upon. Most homicides have no eyewitnesses or crappy eyewitnesses. Zimmerman has a colorable claim, but I just can't read that statute as authorizing deadly force anytime there's any evidence of any battery. Such a statute would be easy to write and the legislature didn't write it that way.

 

[Guest]

Have you ever had someone mount you and apply their body weight against your broken nose as they try to suffocate you to death?

People keep coming into the thread assuming the injuries Zimmerman had sustained up to that point HAD to be life threatening injuries, i.e. Zimmerman had to be on the verge of dying. This has been pointed out countless times as being wrong, that is not required in order to claim self-defense in order to be justified in using deadly force. Zimmerman did not need a scratch on him to support claiming self defense.

You're mischaracterizing the argument. It's absolutely true that Zimmerman could have a great self defense claim in the absence of any injuries. If Martin had pulled at a butcher's knife and had advanced on Zimmerman, that would be a great case where there's a reasonable fear of great bodily harm without any injuries.

The argument is that the totality of facts and circumstances, including the fact that Martin was unarmed and that Zimmerman did not, in fact, sustain major injuries, supports the conclusion that a reasonably prudent and careful person probably would not have feared such injuries.

No evidence was presented to confirm that Trayvon was trying to suffocate George, all that was presented was muffled screams for help on the 911 call. Even if Trayvon was on top and covering George's mouth, it doesn't mean he was trying to suffocate him. Good testified that he saw Trayvon's arms moving up and down, not pressed over George's mouth and nose trying to suffocate George. There was no evidence that Trayvon was trying to do anything other than prevent George from screaming.

I'm still interested in an explanation of how he could be raining down punches MMA style, trying to suffocate him and grabbing for his gun all at the same time. No one's wanted to tackle that one yet.

Witness saw the "raining down punches MMA style", but didn't witness the entire altercation (left to call 911). I don't know that all the other stuff had to happen at the same time.

 

[tdoss]

Have you ever had someone mount you and apply their body weight against your broken nose as they try to suffocate you to death?

People keep coming into the thread assuming the injuries Zimmerman had sustained up to that point HAD to be life threatening injuries, i.e. Zimmerman had to be on the verge of dying. This has been pointed out countless times as being wrong, that is not required in order to claim self-defense in order to be justified in using deadly force. Zimmerman did not need a scratch on him to support claiming self defense.

You're mischaracterizing the argument. It's absolutely true that Zimmerman could have a great self defense claim in the absence of any injuries. If Martin had pulled at a butcher's knife and had advanced on Zimmerman, that would be a great case where there's a reasonable fear of great bodily harm without any injuries.

The argument is that the totality of facts and circumstances, including the fact that Martin was unarmed and that Zimmerman did not, in fact, sustain major injuries, supports the conclusion that a reasonably prudent and careful person probably would not have feared such injuries.

No evidence was presented to confirm that Trayvon was trying to suffocate George, all that was presented was muffled screams for help on the 911 call. Even if Trayvon was on top and covering George's mouth, it doesn't mean he was trying to suffocate him. Good testified that he saw Trayvon's arms moving up and down, not pressed over George's mouth and nose trying to suffocate George. There was no evidence that Trayvon was trying to do anything other than prevent George from screaming.

I'm still interested in an explanation of how he could be raining down punches MMA style, trying to suffocate him and grabbing for his gun all at the same time. No one's wanted to tackle that one yet.

I missed it...who said all that happened at the same time?Commentators for UFC will say a guy is in full mount, grounding and pounding, smothering the guy out, trying for an armbar, going to half mount, etc...and if I'm not looking at the screen...I don't assume all of that is happening at the same time like the guy is wrestling an octopus.

 

[Doug B]

I'm still interested in an explanation of how he could be raining down punches MMA style, trying to suffocate him and grabbing for his gun all at the same time. No one's wanted to tackle that one yet.

No one ever stipulated that all that happened simultaneously, I don't believe?

 

[ATC1]

Have you ever had someone mount you and apply their body weight against your broken nose as they try to suffocate you to death?

People keep coming into the thread assuming the injuries Zimmerman had sustained up to that point HAD to be life threatening injuries, i.e. Zimmerman had to be on the verge of dying. This has been pointed out countless times as being wrong, that is not required in order to claim self-defense in order to be justified in using deadly force. Zimmerman did not need a scratch on him to support claiming self defense.

You're mischaracterizing the argument. It's absolutely true that Zimmerman could have a great self defense claim in the absence of any injuries. If Martin had pulled at a butcher's knife and had advanced on Zimmerman, that would be a great case where there's a reasonable fear of great bodily harm without any injuries.

The argument is that the totality of facts and circumstances, including the fact that Martin was unarmed and that Zimmerman did not, in fact, sustain major injuries, supports the conclusion that a reasonably prudent and careful person probably would not have feared such injuries.

No evidence was presented to confirm that Trayvon was trying to suffocate George, all that was presented was muffled screams for help on the 911 call. Even if Trayvon was on top and covering George's mouth, it doesn't mean he was trying to suffocate him. Good testified that he saw Trayvon's arms moving up and down, not pressed over George's mouth and nose trying to suffocate George. There was no evidence that Trayvon was trying to do anything other than prevent George from screaming.

I'm still interested in an explanation of how he could be raining down punches MMA style, trying to suffocate him and grabbing for his gun all at the same time. No one's wanted to tackle that one yet.

Because it's pretty obvious. It can not happen at the same time, but can occur at a different times through the full time of the altercation.

 

[The Commish]

Did John Good testify that he shouted that he was going to call 911 before heading back inside? Is it reasonable to assume that both Trayvon and Zimmerman heard that announcement?

There's no way they didn't know the police were on their way. Goes for both Trayvon and George.

If true, seems like it would have been a good time for Trayvon to have tried to get away before the police arrived.

Agreed if he didn't think getting up and running would mean him getting shot in the back or some such. I've struggled with this very point for a while now. It speaks to Martin's discretion as well as Zimmerman's discretion and the feasibility of him being genuinely scared for his life. He called the cops and knows others did to. Martin knew that others called the cops...not sure he knew Zimmerman had called the cops though.

Trayvon could have reacted to the announcement by Good that he was calling 911 by getting up off of George, leaning over him to taunt him, and giving George the chance to grab his gun and shoot him. Would still allow for the description of how he was shot (shirt hanging away from his body, shot at 90 degree angle), while also allowing for the idea that Trayvon was ending the fight (which I think the prosecution suggested). I still don't understand how George had access to his gun if Trayvon was straddling his abdomen.

I'm not suggesting this happened, but perhaps TM repositioned himself on GZ's body and felt the gun on the back side of his thigh? If that was the case, TM was likely to move down GZ's body to be able to grab the gun from in front of his thigh rather than awkwardly reaching back behind his thigh. Of course, if that was the case, you'd have to think that TM would be able to reach the gun before GZ since he was the one moving his body and thefore would have a better feel for when the gun was in range.

He only had two hands. He was "raining down punches MMA style", covering his mouth and nose AND grabbing for the gun?? The more I think about it, the more I believe GZ may have felt his shirt/jacket come up....that's about it.

Personally, I don't believe TM was going for Z's gun either, but rather, that TM hit the gun into Z and that was what drove Z to go for the gun and shoot. As to the punches/smothering, I don't fully discount those actions happening during the course of the altercation. You don't have to do all concurrently for them to be prevalent.

He did have to fit them all into a matter of seconds though. "raining down mma style punches" is not a swing or two or even 5. "Trying to suffocate" is not a 5 second effort either yet these are all claims we've heard. It just doesn't add up...especially when we don't know how long Martin was supposedly on top of Zimmerman. I tend to believe Martin was on top of Zimmerman trying to punch him and it's clear to me that he did a pretty good job of covering up to protect himself. I don't believe he was trying to suffocate him and I don't believe he went after his gun.

 

[Rayderr]

So, am I correct in reading the jury's request for an evidence list as a sign that the jury is currently split?

 

[tdoss]

I think that's the distinction, "reasonable fear of death and serious harm".

I'm glad most here have moved from "Zim profiled, stalked and killed a black boy" and have ultimately given up on murder 2 and moved onto manslaughter and whether or not Zim was in fear for his life. Although...I'm not so sure those who would be looking to riot are as enlightened as the FFA.

I don't doubt that Zim was in fear for his life. I don't know if the jury will define his fear as being reasonable.

I gotta think, gun toting women...they might see it as reasonable. You just had your nose broken, you're on the ground and he's in top of you. Mouth filling with blood..he's trying to hit and smother you...no one is stopping him. Seconds feel like forever and there doesn't seem to be a way out. BANG!

But I think we're headed to hung jury over it...that's the best Team Trayvon can hope for here.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Have you ever had someone mount you and apply their body weight against your broken nose as they try to suffocate you to death?

People keep coming into the thread assuming the injuries Zimmerman had sustained up to that point HAD to be life threatening injuries, i.e. Zimmerman had to be on the verge of dying. This has been pointed out countless times as being wrong, that is not required in order to claim self-defense in order to be justified in using deadly force. Zimmerman did not need a scratch on him to support claiming self defense.

You're mischaracterizing the argument. It's absolutely true that Zimmerman could have a great self defense claim in the absence of any injuries. If Martin had pulled at a butcher's knife and had advanced on Zimmerman, that would be a great case where there's a reasonable fear of great bodily harm without any injuries.

The argument is that the totality of facts and circumstances, including the fact that Martin was unarmed and that Zimmerman did not, in fact, sustain major injuries, supports the conclusion that a reasonably prudent and careful person probably would not have feared such injuries.

No evidence was presented to confirm that Trayvon was trying to suffocate George, all that was presented was muffled screams for help on the 911 call. Even if Trayvon was on top and covering George's mouth, it doesn't mean he was trying to suffocate him. Good testified that he saw Trayvon's arms moving up and down, not pressed over George's mouth and nose trying to suffocate George. There was no evidence that Trayvon was trying to do anything other than prevent George from screaming.

I'm still interested in an explanation of how he could be raining down punches MMA style, trying to suffocate him and grabbing for his gun all at the same time. No one's wanted to tackle that one yet.

I missed it...who said all that happened at the same time?

Commentators for UFC will say a guy is in full mount, grounding and pounding, smothering the guy out, trying for an armbar, going to half mount, etc...and if I'm not looking at the screen...I don't assume all of the is happening at the same time like the guy is wrestling an octopus.

 

[Abrantes]

Did John Good testify that he shouted that he was going to call 911 before heading back inside? Is it reasonable to assume that both Trayvon and Zimmerman heard that announcement?

There's no way they didn't know the police were on their way. Goes for both Trayvon and George.

If true, seems like it would have been a good time for Trayvon to have tried to get away before the police arrived.

Agreed if he didn't think getting up and running would mean him getting shot in the back or some such. I've struggled with this very point for a while now. It speaks to Martin's discretion as well as Zimmerman's discretion and the feasibility of him being genuinely scared for his life. He called the cops and knows others did to. Martin knew that others called the cops...not sure he knew Zimmerman had called the cops though.

Trayvon could have reacted to the announcement by Good that he was calling 911 by getting up off of George, leaning over him to taunt him, and giving George the chance to grab his gun and shoot him. Would still allow for the description of how he was shot (shirt hanging away from his body, shot at 90 degree angle), while also allowing for the idea that Trayvon was ending the fight (which I think the prosecution suggested). I still don't understand how George had access to his gun if Trayvon was straddling his abdomen.

I'm not suggesting this happened, but perhaps TM repositioned himself on GZ's body and felt the gun on the back side of his thigh? If that was the case, TM was likely to move down GZ's body to be able to grab the gun from in front of his thigh rather than awkwardly reaching back behind his thigh. Of course, if that was the case, you'd have to think that TM would be able to reach the gun before GZ since he was the one moving his body and thefore would have a better feel for when the gun was in range.

He only had two hands. He was "raining down punches MMA style", covering his mouth and nose AND grabbing for the gun?? The more I think about it, the more I believe GZ may have felt his shirt/jacket come up....that's about it.

Personally, I don't believe TM was going for Z's gun either, but rather, that TM hit the gun into Z and that was what drove Z to go for the gun and shoot. As to the punches/smothering, I don't fully discount those actions happening during the course of the altercation. You don't have to do all concurrently for them to be prevalent.

He did have to fit them all into a matter of seconds though. "raining down mma style punches" is not a swing or two or even 5. "Trying to suffocate" is not a 5 second effort either yet these are all claims we've heard. It just doesn't add up...especially when we don't know how long Martin was supposedly on top of Zimmerman. I tend to believe Martin was on top of Zimmerman trying to punch him and it's clear to me that he did a pretty good job of covering up to protect himself. I don't believe he was trying to suffocate him and I don't believe he went after his gun.

All of which you're describing (raining down punches, covering up mouth, reaching for gun) can happen exceptionally quickly. How many seconds are we talking about?

 

[Johnny Bing]

So, am I correct in reading the jury's request for an evidence list as a sign that the jury is currently split?

I'm not sure we can conclude that. it might be a very thorough jury and they want to make sure they look at every angle. Maybe one juror had conflicting information and they all wanted to verify.

 

[culdeus]

So, am I correct in reading the jury's request for an evidence list as a sign that the jury is currently split?

what the hell is an evidence list? Is it literally a list of crap like the gun, the skittles, and the can of soda?

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

I think that's the distinction, "reasonable fear of death and serious harm".

I'm glad most here have moved from "Zim profiled, stalked and killed a black boy" and have ultimately given up on murder 2 and moved onto manslaughter and whether or not Zim was in fear for his life. Although...I'm not so sure those who would be looking to riot are as enlightened as the FFA.

I don't doubt that Zim was in fear for his life. I don't know if the jury will define his fear as being reasonable.

I gotta think, gun toting women...they might see it as reasonable. You just had your nose broken, you're on the ground and he's in top of you. Mouth filling with blood..he's trying to hit and smother you...no one is stopping him. Seconds feel like forever and there doesn't seem to be a way out. BANG!

But I think we're headed to hung jury over it...that's the best Team Trayvon can hope for here.

One would think when you start swallowing blood in order to yell/breathe, when you are not one to get into fist fights regularly, you are going to be scared.