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Forgiveness for Steve Smith? (1 Viewer)

Dropkick Me J

Footballguy
OK, he punches a teammate (the last of several anger mismanagement issues) and IMO he deserves to be punished. But does anyone else think that Carolina coaches and front office guys will rethink his 2-game suspension before the season starts? Seems to me that the punishment hurts the entire team. And it's not like he sold cocaine or kept a kennel of killer dogs or something. He lost his temper.

If he's been forgiven by his teammates, I'd say a change of heart is justified. Anyone else believing this might happen?

 
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No - Fox and Hurney couldn't have their judgement questioned like this...plus they were largely lauded for thier quick reaction.

 
Although I drafted him today and would love to say so, this will not happen IMO. IIRC, he got one game suspension for his previous altercation with his teammate. A second offence would warrant an additional penalty.

FWIW, I see the Panthers going 1-1 thru the first two games...with or without Smitty.

 
In the days before fantasy football, I don't think anyone would have ever proposed this. It's amazing how FF has completely changed our outlooks on the NFL.

 
Zero chance.Would just be forwarded up to Goodell, who may hand out something worse than 2 games.
I doubt that. If he did that, he'd be sending a message that teams can get by with less punishment from the league if they punish in-house. I don't think that's a good precedent to set at all. I think even if the team changed its mind, Goodell would have to make it a league-sourced two game suspension.
 
In the days before fantasy football, I don't think anyone would have ever proposed this. It's amazing how FF has completely changed our outlooks on the NFL.
In the days before fantasy football, we wouldn't have heard about this incident (much less seen film of it) and he wouldn't have been suspended in the first place. Look, I'm not saying he shouldn't be punished. I guess I'm just advocating for punishment that doesn't put the team's best playmaker on the bench for two games. BTW, I don't own Steve Smith.
 
In the days before fantasy football, I don't think anyone would have ever proposed this. It's amazing how FF has completely changed our outlooks on the NFL.
I guess that's true in that lots of people care about Steve Smith that don't necessarily care about the Panthers that much. Interesting observation. I think in pre FF days, tons of Panther fans would have hoped for something like this.And BTW, I'd say zero chance Fox changes anything there.J
 
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I'm as big a Panther homer as any, and I have no problem with the punishment. I don't think the fact that he's their best playmaker should have anything to do with the punishment. Heck, if he's a backup WR, chances are good he's waived.

Anything less than the 2 game suspension would have completely ripped this team apart.

 
I'm as big a Panther homer as any, and I have no problem with the punishment. I don't think the fact that he's their best playmaker should have anything to do with the punishment. Heck, if he's a backup WR, chances are good he's waived. Anything less than the 2 game suspension would have completely ripped this team apart.
I'd agree with that too. If I'm a Panther fan, I hate losing Smith but realize this was probably best for the long term.J
 
I'm as big a Panther homer as any, and I have no problem with the punishment. I don't think the fact that he's their best playmaker should have anything to do with the punishment. Heck, if he's a backup WR, chances are good he's waived. Anything less than the 2 game suspension would have completely ripped this team apart.
I'd agree with that too. If I'm a Panther fan, I hate losing Smith but realize this was probably best for the long term.J
I don't understand why individual teams suspend players at the Pro level for non-legal issues. It's not rational and it doesn't make sense from a business perspective. Huge fines make sense but suspensions seem counter-productive. I'm not a Panthers fan or a Steve Smith owner. I just think it's silly. Suspensions are an appropriate punishment in high school and even college, but not at the pro level. These guys are highly paid, irreplaceable resources. A suspension hurts the Panthers as much if not more than Steve Smith.
 
I'm as big a Panther homer as any, and I have no problem with the punishment. I don't think the fact that he's their best playmaker should have anything to do with the punishment. Heck, if he's a backup WR, chances are good he's waived. Anything less than the 2 game suspension would have completely ripped this team apart.
I'd agree with that too. If I'm a Panther fan, I hate losing Smith but realize this was probably best for the long term.J
I don't understand why individual teams suspend players at the Pro level for non-legal issues. It's not rational and it doesn't make sense from a business perspective. Huge fines make sense but suspensions seem counter-productive. I'm not a Panthers fan or a Steve Smith owner. I just think it's silly. Suspensions are an appropriate punishment in high school and even college, but not at the pro level. These guys are highly paid, irreplaceable resources. A suspension hurts the Panthers as much if not more than Steve Smith.
It absolutely hurts the Panthers to not have Smith on the field 100% of the time. But that doesn't mean they just accept his behavior because they have to take the bad with the good. What he did was unacceptable and they let him know it while making a statement to the rest of the team that Steve Smith is not bigger than the unit as a whole, which is what they'd be saying if they let him play while fining him. It's a move that could actually cost Fox his job, but I personally think it's the right decision. Understandably you want to win and it's easy to say win at all costs. When the cost is your own reputation or the respect of the guys who are sweating and bleeding for you I can't imagine it's so black and white.
 
I'm as big a Panther homer as any, and I have no problem with the punishment. I don't think the fact that he's their best playmaker should have anything to do with the punishment. Heck, if he's a backup WR, chances are good he's waived. Anything less than the 2 game suspension would have completely ripped this team apart.
I'd agree with that too. If I'm a Panther fan, I hate losing Smith but realize this was probably best for the long term.J
I don't understand why individual teams suspend players at the Pro level for non-legal issues. It's not rational and it doesn't make sense from a business perspective. Huge fines make sense but suspensions seem counter-productive. I'm not a Panthers fan or a Steve Smith owner. I just think it's silly. Suspensions are an appropriate punishment in high school and even college, but not at the pro level. These guys are highly paid, irreplaceable resources. A suspension hurts the Panthers as much if not more than Steve Smith.
If the team doesn't do this, the league does it after they get all the facts. In the Goodell regime, it's not just whether you committed a crime. The team just brought down the punishment more quickly.I'll note that Smith's conduct was at minimum arguable assault and battery. I don't think there was really any game play context to it from what I heard.
 
I'm as big a Panther homer as any, and I have no problem with the punishment. I don't think the fact that he's their best playmaker should have anything to do with the punishment. Heck, if he's a backup WR, chances are good he's waived.

Anything less than the 2 game suspension would have completely ripped this team apart.
I'd agree with that too. If I'm a Panther fan, I hate losing Smith but realize this was probably best for the long term.J
I don't understand why individual teams suspend players at the Pro level for non-legal issues. It's not rational and it doesn't make sense from a business perspective. Huge fines make sense but suspensions seem counter-productive. I'm not a Panthers fan or a Steve Smith owner. I just think it's silly. Suspensions are an appropriate punishment in high school and even college, but not at the pro level. These guys are highly paid, irreplaceable resources. A suspension hurts the Panthers as much if not more than Steve Smith.
It absolutely hurts the Panthers to not have Smith on the field 100% of the time. But that doesn't mean they just accept his behavior because they have to take the bad with the good. What he did was unacceptable and they let him know it while making a statement to the rest of the team that Steve Smith is not bigger than the unit as a whole, which is what they'd be saying if they let him play while fining him. It's a move that could actually cost Fox his job, but I personally think it's the right decision. Understandably you want to win and it's easy to say win at all costs. When the cost is your own reputation or the respect of the guys who are sweating and bleeding for you I can't imagine it's so black and white.
There are lots of ways to punish people. There are five main reasons to punish someone: rehabilitation, incapacitation, deterrence, restoration and retribution. To me, Smith's actions deserve punishment based on a rehabilitation theory (i.e., Smith needs to get his head fixed), a restoration theory (Smith did something wrong to Lucas, and Lucas is worse off for it) and a retribution theory (Smith is the star of the team, and did something bad, and should be punished for that). Smith's actions don't deserve punishment based on an incapacity theory (otherwise, Smith wouldn't be allowed to return after two games), or, IMO, a deterrence theory (a two-game suspension isn't going to deter Smith from doing whatever when he gets in a crazy rage; plus, it seems pretty unlikely that something like this would come up again with another member of the team). Only when deterrence (or incapacitation, but that's obvious) is the main goal does a suspension make sense; you want to prevent other players from doing the same bad thing, so you must deter them. But how often do players beat up their teammates? Less than once a year, league-wide. It's just not something that needs a significant deterrent, and if a player is so angry as to fight a teammate (which almost never happens), it's doubtful a two-game suspension will stop them when they're in that Smith/Romanowski state of mind.Obviously if we want to rehabilitate Smith, a suspension doesn't do that. If we want to restore what went wrong in the world, we'd want Smith to give Lucas a ton of money -- but once again, a suspension doesn't help Lucas at all. Finally, retribution theory doesn't justify a suspension, either; you're hurting everyone else just as much as Smith.

Now I think using retribution theory is a bit dicey -- Fox could tell Smith pay Lucas $100K or you're suspended for two games. I'm not sure that's a road a coach should go down, although I suppose it could work in theory. The Panthers will obviously try to rehabilitate Smith, but that still leaves retribution. The Panthers should punish Smith as an individual, either through a fine, or by making him run a gazillion laps, or making him do community service, or making him do something he really doesn't want to do. But the goal of retribution is to make everyone else feel better, and suspending Smith isn't going to do that. Surely there are ways to punish Smith as an individual while not punishing the team that are more effective than a suspension. (A suspension would be a good punishment if a player was late to practices, or gave bad effort in camp or something. Those things need deterrence.)

 
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I think a suspension absolutely makes sense in a retribution scenario, and I think this is an obvious example of retribution. I'd agree that a suspension is unlikely to be a deterrent to Smith or anyone else.

There are two ways suspension makes sense as retribution. Smith may or may not like playing this game. If he likes it, taking away a fraction of his career is appropriate punishment. If he doesn't, he surely has contract incentives that will be more difficult to achieve due to these missed games. Either way, you're hurting Smith in a very real way with this suspension.

I also think we have to consider that the NFL and the Panthers have a number of people watching what they do. A likely reason for any NFL punishment is going to be public relations. The public hearing about a nasty fight at camp and hearing the next day about a suspension is very good PR.

 
What about getting it reduced to one game if he's done the things he should? I don't think there's a question that he'll have to serve at least a one game suspension, but I have a feeling it might only end up one game.

 
I'm as big a Panther homer as any, and I have no problem with the punishment. I don't think the fact that he's their best playmaker should have anything to do with the punishment. Heck, if he's a backup WR, chances are good he's waived.

Anything less than the 2 game suspension would have completely ripped this team apart.
I'd agree with that too. If I'm a Panther fan, I hate losing Smith but realize this was probably best for the long term.J
I don't understand why individual teams suspend players at the Pro level for non-legal issues. It's not rational and it doesn't make sense from a business perspective. Huge fines make sense but suspensions seem counter-productive. I'm not a Panthers fan or a Steve Smith owner. I just think it's silly. Suspensions are an appropriate punishment in high school and even college, but not at the pro level. These guys are highly paid, irreplaceable resources. A suspension hurts the Panthers as much if not more than Steve Smith.
What if a guy just stops going to practice? That's a non-legal issue. Smith broke a team rule and is bing punished for it. Plenty of people get suspended for breaking team rules across the spectrum of pro-sports. What's more, since he's already been suspended for the same offense I don't know how you show inconsistency by NOT suspending him for more time than the first infraction of the exact same rule.
 
I'm as big a Panther homer as any, and I have no problem with the punishment. I don't think the fact that he's their best playmaker should have anything to do with the punishment. Heck, if he's a backup WR, chances are good he's waived. Anything less than the 2 game suspension would have completely ripped this team apart.
I'd agree with that too. If I'm a Panther fan, I hate losing Smith but realize this was probably best for the long term.J
And if CAR starts off 0-2 and misses the playoffs by a game what do you think the Panther fans will sound like at the end of the season? I'm not saying your statement is wrong, just that I suspect we may hear a much different tune from CAR fans in DEC. It wouldn't really surprise me if Fox lost his job in fact if things played out that way.
 
I'm as big a Panther homer as any, and I have no problem with the punishment. I don't think the fact that he's their best playmaker should have anything to do with the punishment. Heck, if he's a backup WR, chances are good he's waived. Anything less than the 2 game suspension would have completely ripped this team apart.
I'd agree with that too. If I'm a Panther fan, I hate losing Smith but realize this was probably best for the long term.J
And if CAR starts off 0-2 and misses the playoffs by a game what do you think the Panther fans will sound like at the end of the season? I'm not saying your statement is wrong, just that I suspect we may hear a much different tune from CAR fans in DEC. It wouldn't really surprise me if Fox lost his job in fact if things played out that way.
If Carolina misses the playoffs by one game, they didn't do enough when he came back. He's not missing the last two games in a tight division race. It's the first two games, so it's easier to recover. You can't hit a teammate like that and not be punished. That's all Smith's fault, and two games sounds just right to me. I do agree that CAR fans will complain if they miss the playoffs, but that's what fans of non-playoff teams do.
 
I'm as big a Panther homer as any, and I have no problem with the punishment. I don't think the fact that he's their best playmaker should have anything to do with the punishment. Heck, if he's a backup WR, chances are good he's waived. Anything less than the 2 game suspension would have completely ripped this team apart.
I'd agree with that too. If I'm a Panther fan, I hate losing Smith but realize this was probably best for the long term.J
I don't understand why individual teams suspend players at the Pro level for non-legal issues. It's not rational and it doesn't make sense from a business perspective. Huge fines make sense but suspensions seem counter-productive. I'm not a Panthers fan or a Steve Smith owner. I just think it's silly. Suspensions are an appropriate punishment in high school and even college, but not at the pro level. These guys are highly paid, irreplaceable resources. A suspension hurts the Panthers as much if not more than Steve Smith.
I think it hurts Smith a lot. If they go 0-2 in close games they might have won if Smith had been playing...that's HIS fault for doing what he did. He'll get a lot of the blame as a supposed team leader. He's the reason he's not out there. And imo, every player is a replaceable resource. Do enough wrong and you'll get fined, suspended or even kicked off the team. Star players get more slack, but not a free pass. Suspending Smith forces him to be accountable for his actions, and he'll shoulder the blame for losses. If not for his actions, he would have been on the field.
 
The first game - against SD, is already penciled in as a loss, with our without SD. I don't think Panther fans will pin that loss on the Smith suspension. I do think the next game, home against the Bears, is the key game. If Panthers lose, then the Smith suspension comes into play. If they win, without Smith, I think this whole thing is a non-issue.

In the end, I don't see how this move costs Fox his job. Other factors may cost him, but I don't think this Smith suspension will.

 
I'm as big a Panther homer as any, and I have no problem with the punishment. I don't think the fact that he's their best playmaker should have anything to do with the punishment. Heck, if he's a backup WR, chances are good he's waived. Anything less than the 2 game suspension would have completely ripped this team apart.
I'd agree with that too. If I'm a Panther fan, I hate losing Smith but realize this was probably best for the long term.J
I don't understand why individual teams suspend players at the Pro level for non-legal issues. It's not rational and it doesn't make sense from a business perspective. Huge fines make sense but suspensions seem counter-productive. I'm not a Panthers fan or a Steve Smith owner. I just think it's silly. Suspensions are an appropriate punishment in high school and even college, but not at the pro level. These guys are highly paid, irreplaceable resources. A suspension hurts the Panthers as much if not more than Steve Smith.
When you say "huge fine" what % of his yearly salary are you talking?J
 
I'm as big a Panther homer as any, and I have no problem with the punishment. I don't think the fact that he's their best playmaker should have anything to do with the punishment. Heck, if he's a backup WR, chances are good he's waived.

Anything less than the 2 game suspension would have completely ripped this team apart.
I'd agree with that too. If I'm a Panther fan, I hate losing Smith but realize this was probably best for the long term.J
I don't understand why individual teams suspend players at the Pro level for non-legal issues. It's not rational and it doesn't make sense from a business perspective. Huge fines make sense but suspensions seem counter-productive. I'm not a Panthers fan or a Steve Smith owner. I just think it's silly. Suspensions are an appropriate punishment in high school and even college, but not at the pro level. These guys are highly paid, irreplaceable resources. A suspension hurts the Panthers as much if not more than Steve Smith.
It absolutely hurts the Panthers to not have Smith on the field 100% of the time. But that doesn't mean they just accept his behavior because they have to take the bad with the good. What he did was unacceptable and they let him know it while making a statement to the rest of the team that Steve Smith is not bigger than the unit as a whole, which is what they'd be saying if they let him play while fining him. It's a move that could actually cost Fox his job, but I personally think it's the right decision. Understandably you want to win and it's easy to say win at all costs. When the cost is your own reputation or the respect of the guys who are sweating and bleeding for you I can't imagine it's so black and white.
There are lots of ways to punish people. There are five main reasons to punish someone: rehabilitation, incapacitation, deterrence, restoration and retribution. To me, Smith's actions deserve punishment based on a rehabilitation theory (i.e., Smith needs to get his head fixed), a restoration theory (Smith did something wrong to Lucas, and Lucas is worse off for it) and a retribution theory (Smith is the star of the team, and did something bad, and should be punished for that). Smith's actions don't deserve punishment based on an incapacity theory (otherwise, Smith wouldn't be allowed to return after two games), or, IMO, a deterrence theory (a two-game suspension isn't going to deter Smith from doing whatever when he gets in a crazy rage; plus, it seems pretty unlikely that something like this would come up again with another member of the team). Only when deterrence (or incapacitation, but that's obvious) is the main goal does a suspension make sense; you want to prevent other players from doing the same bad thing, so you must deter them. But how often do players beat up their teammates? Less than once a year, league-wide. It's just not something that needs a significant deterrent, and if a player is so angry as to fight a teammate (which almost never happens), it's doubtful a two-game suspension will stop them when they're in that Smith/Romanowski state of mind.Obviously if we want to rehabilitate Smith, a suspension doesn't do that. If we want to restore what went wrong in the world, we'd want Smith to give Lucas a ton of money -- but once again, a suspension doesn't help Lucas at all. Finally, retribution theory doesn't justify a suspension, either; you're hurting everyone else just as much as Smith.

Now I think using retribution theory is a bit dicey -- Fox could tell Smith pay Lucas $100K or you're suspended for two games. I'm not sure that's a road a coach should go down, although I suppose it could work in theory. The Panthers will obviously try to rehabilitate Smith, but that still leaves retribution. The Panthers should punish Smith as an individual, either through a fine, or by making him run a gazillion laps, or making him do community service, or making him do something he really doesn't want to do. But the goal of retribution is to make everyone else feel better, and suspending Smith isn't going to do that. Surely there are ways to punish Smith as an individual while not punishing the team that are more effective than a suspension. (A suspension would be a good punishment if a player was late to practices, or gave bad effort in camp or something. Those things need deterrence.)
Interesting post. I was thinking about this the other day. If Lucas were to agree, I think they should drop the suspension and have Smith pay Lucas two games pay. One game's worth Lucas could keep, the other to a charity of Lucas' choice. The only thing worse than losing your pay is losing your pay and being forced to still work.
 
I'm a Panther fan, and I'm also a fan of Steve Smith. I think he is a good guy, but unfortunately he has issues with his temper. I believe he is very remorseful for what he did, and he took full responsibility for it, and made zero excuses. There has to be consequences though for what he did, and I think the punishment is appropriate. Before this incident he had kept his temper in check for several years, but that doesn't change the fact that this is the second time he has done something like this to a teammate. Ken Lucas said he has forgiven Smith, and the team has expressed this as well. As John Fox said, he is one of them, and they are going to help him. He is getting counseling for his anger again, and that is good for him in and off the field. Several Panthers have said this incident has brought them closer as a team. Maybe something good has come out of something bad.

 
Interesting post. I was thinking about this the other day. If Lucas were to agree, I think they should drop the suspension and have Smith pay Lucas two games pay. One game's worth Lucas could keep, the other to a charity of Lucas' choice. The only thing worse than losing your pay is losing your pay and being forced to still work.
If people are looking for a punishment that hurts Smith without hurting the Panthers (and their fans), that would work.
 
I'm as big a Panther homer as any, and I have no problem with the punishment. I don't think the fact that he's their best playmaker should have anything to do with the punishment. Heck, if he's a backup WR, chances are good he's waived. Anything less than the 2 game suspension would have completely ripped this team apart.
I'd agree with that too. If I'm a Panther fan, I hate losing Smith but realize this was probably best for the long term.J
I don't understand why individual teams suspend players at the Pro level for non-legal issues. It's not rational and it doesn't make sense from a business perspective. Huge fines make sense but suspensions seem counter-productive. I'm not a Panthers fan or a Steve Smith owner. I just think it's silly. Suspensions are an appropriate punishment in high school and even college, but not at the pro level. These guys are highly paid, irreplaceable resources. A suspension hurts the Panthers as much if not more than Steve Smith.
When you say "huge fine" what % of his yearly salary are you talking?J
Not sure if the CBA allows it, but I'd say 2 game checks or the equivalent of the alternative suspension. Then I'd give the money to his favorite charity.
 
I'm as big a Panther homer as any, and I have no problem with the punishment. I don't think the fact that he's their best playmaker should have anything to do with the punishment. Heck, if he's a backup WR, chances are good he's waived.

Anything less than the 2 game suspension would have completely ripped this team apart.
I'd agree with that too. If I'm a Panther fan, I hate losing Smith but realize this was probably best for the long term.J
I don't understand why individual teams suspend players at the Pro level for non-legal issues. It's not rational and it doesn't make sense from a business perspective. Huge fines make sense but suspensions seem counter-productive. I'm not a Panthers fan or a Steve Smith owner. I just think it's silly. Suspensions are an appropriate punishment in high school and even college, but not at the pro level. These guys are highly paid, irreplaceable resources. A suspension hurts the Panthers as much if not more than Steve Smith.
It absolutely hurts the Panthers to not have Smith on the field 100% of the time. But that doesn't mean they just accept his behavior because they have to take the bad with the good. What he did was unacceptable and they let him know it while making a statement to the rest of the team that Steve Smith is not bigger than the unit as a whole, which is what they'd be saying if they let him play while fining him. It's a move that could actually cost Fox his job, but I personally think it's the right decision. Understandably you want to win and it's easy to say win at all costs. When the cost is your own reputation or the respect of the guys who are sweating and bleeding for you I can't imagine it's so black and white.
There are lots of ways to punish people. There are five main reasons to punish someone: rehabilitation, incapacitation, deterrence, restoration and retribution. To me, Smith's actions deserve punishment based on a rehabilitation theory (i.e., Smith needs to get his head fixed), a restoration theory (Smith did something wrong to Lucas, and Lucas is worse off for it) and a retribution theory (Smith is the star of the team, and did something bad, and should be punished for that). Smith's actions don't deserve punishment based on an incapacity theory (otherwise, Smith wouldn't be allowed to return after two games), or, IMO, a deterrence theory (a two-game suspension isn't going to deter Smith from doing whatever when he gets in a crazy rage; plus, it seems pretty unlikely that something like this would come up again with another member of the team). Only when deterrence (or incapacitation, but that's obvious) is the main goal does a suspension make sense; you want to prevent other players from doing the same bad thing, so you must deter them. But how often do players beat up their teammates? Less than once a year, league-wide. It's just not something that needs a significant deterrent, and if a player is so angry as to fight a teammate (which almost never happens), it's doubtful a two-game suspension will stop them when they're in that Smith/Romanowski state of mind.Obviously if we want to rehabilitate Smith, a suspension doesn't do that. If we want to restore what went wrong in the world, we'd want Smith to give Lucas a ton of money -- but once again, a suspension doesn't help Lucas at all. Finally, retribution theory doesn't justify a suspension, either; you're hurting everyone else just as much as Smith.

Now I think using retribution theory is a bit dicey -- Fox could tell Smith pay Lucas $100K or you're suspended for two games. I'm not sure that's a road a coach should go down, although I suppose it could work in theory. The Panthers will obviously try to rehabilitate Smith, but that still leaves retribution. The Panthers should punish Smith as an individual, either through a fine, or by making him run a gazillion laps, or making him do community service, or making him do something he really doesn't want to do. But the goal of retribution is to make everyone else feel better, and suspending Smith isn't going to do that. Surely there are ways to punish Smith as an individual while not punishing the team that are more effective than a suspension. (A suspension would be a good punishment if a player was late to practices, or gave bad effort in camp or something. Those things need deterrence.)
Interesting post. I was thinking about this the other day. If Lucas were to agree, I think they should drop the suspension and have Smith pay Lucas two games pay. One game's worth Lucas could keep, the other to a charity of Lucas' choice. The only thing worse than losing your pay is losing your pay and being forced to still work.
I think it would be unfair to put it on Lucas like that. The team should man up and hand out a tough punishment...and that's what they did. To put it on Lucas to go along with letting him off the hook and paying a little cash would be the wrong way to handle it imo. I think it's worse to not be allowed to do the thing you think you excel at, and letting down an entire city because of your actions.

 
I'm as big a Panther homer as any, and I have no problem with the punishment. I don't think the fact that he's their best playmaker should have anything to do with the punishment. Heck, if he's a backup WR, chances are good he's waived.

Anything less than the 2 game suspension would have completely ripped this team apart.
I'd agree with that too. If I'm a Panther fan, I hate losing Smith but realize this was probably best for the long term.J
I don't understand why individual teams suspend players at the Pro level for non-legal issues. It's not rational and it doesn't make sense from a business perspective. Huge fines make sense but suspensions seem counter-productive. I'm not a Panthers fan or a Steve Smith owner. I just think it's silly. Suspensions are an appropriate punishment in high school and even college, but not at the pro level. These guys are highly paid, irreplaceable resources. A suspension hurts the Panthers as much if not more than Steve Smith.
It absolutely hurts the Panthers to not have Smith on the field 100% of the time. But that doesn't mean they just accept his behavior because they have to take the bad with the good. What he did was unacceptable and they let him know it while making a statement to the rest of the team that Steve Smith is not bigger than the unit as a whole, which is what they'd be saying if they let him play while fining him. It's a move that could actually cost Fox his job, but I personally think it's the right decision. Understandably you want to win and it's easy to say win at all costs. When the cost is your own reputation or the respect of the guys who are sweating and bleeding for you I can't imagine it's so black and white.
There are lots of ways to punish people. There are five main reasons to punish someone: rehabilitation, incapacitation, deterrence, restoration and retribution. To me, Smith's actions deserve punishment based on a rehabilitation theory (i.e., Smith needs to get his head fixed), a restoration theory (Smith did something wrong to Lucas, and Lucas is worse off for it) and a retribution theory (Smith is the star of the team, and did something bad, and should be punished for that). Smith's actions don't deserve punishment based on an incapacity theory (otherwise, Smith wouldn't be allowed to return after two games), or, IMO, a deterrence theory (a two-game suspension isn't going to deter Smith from doing whatever when he gets in a crazy rage; plus, it seems pretty unlikely that something like this would come up again with another member of the team). Only when deterrence (or incapacitation, but that's obvious) is the main goal does a suspension make sense; you want to prevent other players from doing the same bad thing, so you must deter them. But how often do players beat up their teammates? Less than once a year, league-wide. It's just not something that needs a significant deterrent, and if a player is so angry as to fight a teammate (which almost never happens), it's doubtful a two-game suspension will stop them when they're in that Smith/Romanowski state of mind.Obviously if we want to rehabilitate Smith, a suspension doesn't do that. If we want to restore what went wrong in the world, we'd want Smith to give Lucas a ton of money -- but once again, a suspension doesn't help Lucas at all. Finally, retribution theory doesn't justify a suspension, either; you're hurting everyone else just as much as Smith.

Now I think using retribution theory is a bit dicey -- Fox could tell Smith pay Lucas $100K or you're suspended for two games. I'm not sure that's a road a coach should go down, although I suppose it could work in theory. The Panthers will obviously try to rehabilitate Smith, but that still leaves retribution. The Panthers should punish Smith as an individual, either through a fine, or by making him run a gazillion laps, or making him do community service, or making him do something he really doesn't want to do. But the goal of retribution is to make everyone else feel better, and suspending Smith isn't going to do that. Surely there are ways to punish Smith as an individual while not punishing the team that are more effective than a suspension. (A suspension would be a good punishment if a player was late to practices, or gave bad effort in camp or something. Those things need deterrence.)
Interesting post. I was thinking about this the other day. If Lucas were to agree, I think they should drop the suspension and have Smith pay Lucas two games pay. One game's worth Lucas could keep, the other to a charity of Lucas' choice. The only thing worse than losing your pay is losing your pay and being forced to still work.
That might work, although I still think some other punishment would need to be given out as well.Aside from that, did they ever disclose what exactly caused Smith to go :shrug:

 
The team that was stupid for not relenting on a player missing a game was the Chargers with Gates in 2005 following that contract holdout. That IMHO cost them a close game against Dallas, and they went 9-7 and missed the playoffs by that one win.

This is different as it relates to a disciplinary infraction. The team needs to stand by its decision here.

 
The team that was stupid for not relenting on a player missing a game was the Chargers with Gates in 2005 following that contract holdout. That IMHO cost them a close game against Dallas, and they went 9-7 and missed the playoffs by that one win. This is different as it relates to a disciplinary infraction. The team needs to stand by its decision here.
The Chargers weren't stupid then, they had no option of simply relenting. This was covered pretty heavily here during that season.
 
I'm as big a Panther homer as any, and I have no problem with the punishment. I don't think the fact that he's their best playmaker should have anything to do with the punishment. Heck, if he's a backup WR, chances are good he's waived.

Anything less than the 2 game suspension would have completely ripped this team apart.
I'd agree with that too. If I'm a Panther fan, I hate losing Smith but realize this was probably best for the long term.J
I don't understand why individual teams suspend players at the Pro level for non-legal issues. It's not rational and it doesn't make sense from a business perspective. Huge fines make sense but suspensions seem counter-productive. I'm not a Panthers fan or a Steve Smith owner. I just think it's silly. Suspensions are an appropriate punishment in high school and even college, but not at the pro level. These guys are highly paid, irreplaceable resources. A suspension hurts the Panthers as much if not more than Steve Smith.
It absolutely hurts the Panthers to not have Smith on the field 100% of the time. But that doesn't mean they just accept his behavior because they have to take the bad with the good. What he did was unacceptable and they let him know it while making a statement to the rest of the team that Steve Smith is not bigger than the unit as a whole, which is what they'd be saying if they let him play while fining him. It's a move that could actually cost Fox his job, but I personally think it's the right decision. Understandably you want to win and it's easy to say win at all costs. When the cost is your own reputation or the respect of the guys who are sweating and bleeding for you I can't imagine it's so black and white.
There are lots of ways to punish people. There are five main reasons to punish someone: rehabilitation, incapacitation, deterrence, restoration and retribution. To me, Smith's actions deserve punishment based on a rehabilitation theory (i.e., Smith needs to get his head fixed), a restoration theory (Smith did something wrong to Lucas, and Lucas is worse off for it) and a retribution theory (Smith is the star of the team, and did something bad, and should be punished for that). Smith's actions don't deserve punishment based on an incapacity theory (otherwise, Smith wouldn't be allowed to return after two games), or, IMO, a deterrence theory (a two-game suspension isn't going to deter Smith from doing whatever when he gets in a crazy rage; plus, it seems pretty unlikely that something like this would come up again with another member of the team). Only when deterrence (or incapacitation, but that's obvious) is the main goal does a suspension make sense; you want to prevent other players from doing the same bad thing, so you must deter them. But how often do players beat up their teammates? Less than once a year, league-wide. It's just not something that needs a significant deterrent, and if a player is so angry as to fight a teammate (which almost never happens), it's doubtful a two-game suspension will stop them when they're in that Smith/Romanowski state of mind.Obviously if we want to rehabilitate Smith, a suspension doesn't do that. If we want to restore what went wrong in the world, we'd want Smith to give Lucas a ton of money -- but once again, a suspension doesn't help Lucas at all. Finally, retribution theory doesn't justify a suspension, either; you're hurting everyone else just as much as Smith.

Now I think using retribution theory is a bit dicey -- Fox could tell Smith pay Lucas $100K or you're suspended for two games. I'm not sure that's a road a coach should go down, although I suppose it could work in theory. The Panthers will obviously try to rehabilitate Smith, but that still leaves retribution. The Panthers should punish Smith as an individual, either through a fine, or by making him run a gazillion laps, or making him do community service, or making him do something he really doesn't want to do. But the goal of retribution is to make everyone else feel better, and suspending Smith isn't going to do that. Surely there are ways to punish Smith as an individual while not punishing the team that are more effective than a suspension. (A suspension would be a good punishment if a player was late to practices, or gave bad effort in camp or something. Those things need deterrence.)
Interesting post. I was thinking about this the other day. If Lucas were to agree, I think they should drop the suspension and have Smith pay Lucas two games pay. One game's worth Lucas could keep, the other to a charity of Lucas' choice. The only thing worse than losing your pay is losing your pay and being forced to still work.
That might work, although I still think some other punishment would need to be given out as well.Aside from that, did they ever disclose what exactly caused Smith to go :nerd:
PFT was saying that they were going at it in practice and Smith was giving Lucas a hard time because Lucas supposedly had a nose job and Smith was ripping him for it. So they really go into it at that point. Then when they were on the sidelines, Lucas supposedly said something to Smith, although there's no talk on exactly what was said.
 
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The first game - against SD, is already penciled in as a loss, with our without SD. I don't think Panther fans will pin that loss on the Smith suspension. I do think the next game, home against the Bears, is the key game. If Panthers lose, then the Smith suspension comes into play. If they win, without Smith, I think this whole thing is a non-issue.In the end, I don't see how this move costs Fox his job. Other factors may cost him, but I don't think this Smith suspension will.
I can't disagree more. For Fox, there is no other "factor" aside from winning. A single loss is HUGE in the NFL. If the Panthers lose either game, fans will DEFINITELY pin the loss on Fox.Reducing a punishment for good behavior is not unheard of and I think it's in everyone's best interest if Fox can find a way to do it. (Again, I don't own Smith.)
 
The first game - against SD, is already penciled in as a loss, with our without SD. I don't think Panther fans will pin that loss on the Smith suspension. I do think the next game, home against the Bears, is the key game. If Panthers lose, then the Smith suspension comes into play. If they win, without Smith, I think this whole thing is a non-issue.

In the end, I don't see how this move costs Fox his job. Other factors may cost him, but I don't think this Smith suspension will.
I can't disagree more. For Fox, there is no other "factor" aside from winning. A single loss is HUGE in the NFL. If the Panthers lose either game, fans will DEFINITELY pin the loss on Fox.

Reducing a punishment for good behavior is not unheard of and I think it's in everyone's best interest if Fox can find a way to do it. (Again, I don't own Smith.)
:goodposting: I am an owner, though just in a "friendly" league, but honestly do think this is a situation where the team can punish the player and at the same time reduce the suspension for good behavior.

 
I'm as big a Panther homer as any, and I have no problem with the punishment. I don't think the fact that he's their best playmaker should have anything to do with the punishment. Heck, if he's a backup WR, chances are good he's waived. Anything less than the 2 game suspension would have completely ripped this team apart.
I'd agree with that too. If I'm a Panther fan, I hate losing Smith but realize this was probably best for the long term.J
I don't understand why individual teams suspend players at the Pro level for non-legal issues. It's not rational and it doesn't make sense from a business perspective. Huge fines make sense but suspensions seem counter-productive. I'm not a Panthers fan or a Steve Smith owner. I just think it's silly. Suspensions are an appropriate punishment in high school and even college, but not at the pro level. These guys are highly paid, irreplaceable resources. A suspension hurts the Panthers as much if not more than Steve Smith.
When you say "huge fine" what % of his yearly salary are you talking?J
Not sure if the CBA allows it, but I'd say 2 game checks or the equivalent of the alternative suspension. Then I'd give the money to his favorite charity.
The CBA allows 4 games I believe. The suspension he's going to serve will be without pay. That works out to a couple hundred thousand dollars he's going to lose out on here as it is.J
 
I'm as big a Panther homer as any, and I have no problem with the punishment. I don't think the fact that he's their best playmaker should have anything to do with the punishment. Heck, if he's a backup WR, chances are good he's waived.

Anything less than the 2 game suspension would have completely ripped this team apart.
I'd agree with that too. If I'm a Panther fan, I hate losing Smith but realize this was probably best for the long term.J
I don't understand why individual teams suspend players at the Pro level for non-legal issues. It's not rational and it doesn't make sense from a business perspective. Huge fines make sense but suspensions seem counter-productive. I'm not a Panthers fan or a Steve Smith owner. I just think it's silly. Suspensions are an appropriate punishment in high school and even college, but not at the pro level. These guys are highly paid, irreplaceable resources. A suspension hurts the Panthers as much if not more than Steve Smith.
What if a guy just stops going to practice? That's a non-legal issue. Smith broke a team rule and is bing punished for it. Plenty of people get suspended for breaking team rules across the spectrum of pro-sports. What's more, since he's already been suspended for the same offense I don't know how you show inconsistency by NOT suspending him for more time than the first infraction of the exact same rule.
Yes I agree that plenty of people get suspended for various reason across the spectrum of Pro sports, but I would argue that the suspensions are mostly ineffective. In this case, as you said, Smith was already suspended once for this type of offense and yet the behavior still continued. So the Panthers lose Smith's services and the behavior is not curtailed. A lose-lose situation. In this specific case, I think a heavy fine is much more effective. Losing money would be more incentive for Smith to stop acting like an idiot and the Panthers would get full value out of their player. A win-win situation. My take is that for the most part, a suspension is usually just an ineffective show of punishment rather than an effective response. Now you could argue that a suspension would affect a player's ability to hit certain statistical incentives in their contract and that could be sufficient incentive to change behavior, but I still think a fine would be a more beneficial form of punishment simply because the team could still get full value out of the player.

 
This situation walks a very fine line. While Smith is at fault, it hurts the whole team if he's suspended. That's the quandry Fox faces. It wouldn't surprise me if this goes either way. I own Smith in several leagues & if he's suspended, you use your backups.

If you have good depth, the liklehood of Smith actually making the difference in your FF game (win or lose) is much less than you would think.

 
I'm as big a Panther homer as any, and I have no problem with the punishment. I don't think the fact that he's their best playmaker should have anything to do with the punishment. Heck, if he's a backup WR, chances are good he's waived. Anything less than the 2 game suspension would have completely ripped this team apart.
I'd agree with that too. If I'm a Panther fan, I hate losing Smith but realize this was probably best for the long term.J
I don't understand why individual teams suspend players at the Pro level for non-legal issues. It's not rational and it doesn't make sense from a business perspective. Huge fines make sense but suspensions seem counter-productive. I'm not a Panthers fan or a Steve Smith owner. I just think it's silly. Suspensions are an appropriate punishment in high school and even college, but not at the pro level. These guys are highly paid, irreplaceable resources. A suspension hurts the Panthers as much if not more than Steve Smith.
When you say "huge fine" what % of his yearly salary are you talking?J
IMO, a heavy fine would be any fine greater than 10% of a player's annual salary. He's already losing two games checks, so that's at least a 10% fine right there.
 
The team that was stupid for not relenting on a player missing a game was the Chargers with Gates in 2005 following that contract holdout. That IMHO cost them a close game against Dallas, and they went 9-7 and missed the playoffs by that one win. This is different as it relates to a disciplinary infraction. The team needs to stand by its decision here.
The Chargers weren't stupid then, they had no option of simply relenting. This was covered pretty heavily here during that season.
But just to keep beating the dead horse. The Chargers didn't suspend Gates. They had no power to "unsuspend' him. League rules forbid him from playing. And the Chargers missed the playoffs by two games.
 
First off, I'm a Panthers season ticket holder and I think this is the correct punishment. I also predict the Panthers going 1-1 in these games with or without him. As to Goodell, this was a preseason practice and no police involvement. The NFL will take no position on this. It's an internal team matter. However, If Fox or Hurney were to change their minds or even if they hadn't responded, Jerry Richardson (team owner) would have. He takes his and the team's image in the community very seriously. This would never have gotten to Goodell with the Big Cat watching. Had they done nothing, or just a wrist slap, Bill Cowher would have been invited to dinner at Morton's already.

 
Also, I do not think the team could fine him the equialent of two game checks under the Collective Bargaining Agreement if he played. They have to suspend him from all team activities to take his game checks. So a fine of this magnitude was never an option.

 

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