Former TN Governor Bill Haslam Interview In Atlantic On Faith and Politics (1 Viewer)

[Joe Bryant]

Bill Haslam is a (distant) friend of mine. Big deal. He's the kind of guy that has a zillion friends. I saw him at a UT football game a few years ago with my friend Nigel Eccles and Haslam gave me a hug. Nigel was surprised and said, "The governor hugs you?". I said, "He hugs everyone." It was his business to know most every business owner in Knoxville, TN where I live when he was mayor here. And then on to governor. We go to the same church. I've been around him enough to believe what you see in public is how he is. I like him a lot. For someone like me that has a framed picture of Mr. Rogers on the wall, he's my kind of guy. 

I thought this article was interesting as it seems like he and I are very closely aligned on how we see things. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/06/bill-haslam-trump-evangelicals/619101/

Haslam is disturbed by some aspects of the national Republican Party’s recent direction—particularly the way politicians and activists have frequently used religion as a cudgel. In his new book, Faithful Presence, he laments what he describes as a tendency among Christians to conflate politics with faith. He is one of many religious conservatives who feel unsure how to describe themselves these days. While he firmly holds evangelical theological beliefs, he told me, he doesn’t feel like he fits the political image of evangelicalism at all. Haslam is willing to challenge his fellow Christians to be more Christ-like in the way they do politics, encouraging them to turn off Fox News and be more charitable toward their political opponents, but he’s squishy about naming and blaming fellow Christian political leaders for the example they’ve set. “There’s been damage to the Church by the identification with this political cause,” he said—the “cause” being Trumpism. But, he added, he’s not interested in criticizing “current political personalities.” Perhaps Haslam has another campaign in him, after all.

 

[djmich]

Bill Haslam is a (distant) friend of mine. Big deal. He's the kind of guy that has a zillion friends. I saw him at a UT football game a few years ago with my friend Nigel Eccles and Haslam gave me a hug. Nigel was surprised and said, "The governor hugs you?". I said, "He hugs everyone." It was his business to know most every business owner in Knoxville, TN where I live when he was mayor here. And then on to governor. We go to the same church. I've been around him enough to believe what you see in public is how he is. I like him a lot. For someone like me that has a framed picture of Mr. Rogers on the wall, he's my kind of guy. 

I thought this article was interesting as it seems like he and I are very closely aligned on how we see things. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/06/bill-haslam-trump-evangelicals/619101/

Your Haslam quote reminded me of this quote from Gandhi...."I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
 

 

[bigbottom]

How do “evangelical theological beliefs” differ from traditional Christian (non-Catholic) beliefs?

 

[Joe Bryant]

How do “evangelical theological beliefs” differ from traditional Christian (non-Catholic) beliefs?

Not sure. That word has lost so much meaning over the years. Do you mean where she wrote: "While he firmly holds evangelical theological beliefs, he told me, he doesn’t feel like he fits the political image of evangelicalism at all."

I'm not certain what she's referring to there or if she's saying they are different than traditional Christian beliefs.

 

[bigbottom]

Not sure. That word has lost so much meaning over the years. Do you mean where she wrote: "While he firmly holds evangelical theological beliefs, he told me, he doesn’t feel like he fits the political image of evangelicalism at all."

I'm not certain what she's referring to there or if she's saying they are different than traditional Christian beliefs.

Well, the reason I ask is that many years ago, I understood evangelicals to be “born agains” meaning those who were saved by His grace simply by seeking salvation by inviting Christ into their hearts. But over the past 20 years or so, I’ve come to associate “evangelicals” (in the U.S. at least) as a political descriptor more than anything. Which appears to be central to Haslam’s point. But I also think that continuing to identify as an “evangelical Christian” as opposed to “a Christian” has a tendency to perpetuate the conflation of religion and politics that he laments. And by suggesting that his “fellow Christians” turn off Fox News, it appears that he acknowledges to some degree that his brand of Christianity is inextricably tied to a political ideology. I think it’s one thing to urge that Christians be more charitable to those who hold opposing political views, but entirely another to suggest that religion be uncoupled from politics. In this brief paragraph (which could mischaracterize or oversimplify his views), Haslam seems to focus more on the former than the latter. I would argue that both are laudable views in any event. 

 

[whoknew]

I appreciate his thoughts but should we be asking folks like him to speak out more? Many of us here have similar misgivings about the direction of politics, the GOP, etc. But how do we stop it? Would having prominent guys like Haslam calling out the current leaders help? 

I don't know the answer to that.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

At this point, I'm far less concerned with the effect that Christianity is having on the GOP than I am about the effect the GOP is having on Christianity.  The modern Republican party doesn't even vaguely resemble what I used to think of when the topic of, say, the Moral Majority came up.  But I do worry that Trumpism is seeping into the evangelical movement.  (Full disclosure that I'm not an evangelical and I attend a mainline protestant church, so YMMV).

 

[djmich]

I appreciate his thoughts but should we be asking folks like him to speak out more? Many of us here have similar misgivings about the direction of politics, the GOP, etc. But how do we stop it? Would having prominent guys like Haslam calling out the current leaders help? 

I don't know the answer to that.

We need our leaders to be leaders.  The problem is you generally don't get to a position of leadership by nuking the people you need to get there.

Guys like Haslam help, but as the quote implies...even he has a clear line of not calling people out (because that would sabotage any chance of obtaining a position of leadership and actually bringing change).

Honesty, we need a unicorn.  A guy like Barack Obama who actually bridges the divide rather than goes along with party politics.  Someone that can be elected and do what they want.  I don't see one on the horizon.  Honestly Trump was also what I'd call a unicorn, but obviously not the kind we needed.

 

[RCon]

I appreciate his thoughts but should we be asking folks like him to speak out more? Many of us here have similar misgivings about the direction of politics, the GOP, etc. But how do we stop it? Would having prominent guys like Haslam calling out the current leaders help? 

I don't know the answer to that.

That was my initial thought on reading the quote JB showed.  If the current political heads representing group X are "bad", ignoring them doesn't seem like the right approach.

 

[djmich]

That was my initial thought on reading the quote JB showed.  If the current political heads representing group X are "bad", ignoring them doesn't seem like the right approach.

Depends.  It can be the right approach if the alternative is worse.  You want your side to be better...that doesn't mean you want to see worse win.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I appreciate his thoughts but should we be asking folks like him to speak out more? Many of us here have similar misgivings about the direction of politics, the GOP, etc. But how do we stop it? Would having prominent guys like Haslam calling out the current leaders help? 

I don't know the answer to that.

I think that's part of what she's asking him. 

Green: You know, to be to be honest, one of the things that frustrated me about your book was that you lament this kind of bad behavior by Christians, but you don’t hold any leaders to account—particularly Republican leaders who are Christians and who hold their Christianity up as part of their politics—for insulting people on the internet and being nasty and showing poor leadership. Are there specific Republican leaders who you think bear responsibility for perpetuating that culture in the name of Christianity?

Haslam: I specifically did not want to make this a book about current political personalities. I think the issue is much bigger than our current situation. I also think it applies to people on both sides of the aisle. So while I understand your feeling, my point is that what’s needed is a more Christian approach to our public square, regardless of what your politics are.

Green: I definitely hear that. But I want to push back, because, as you know, the brand of evangelical Christianity—specifically white evangelical Christianity—has become so tightly tied to President Trump. Evangelicals supported him widely. They helped secure his victory. And he catered to them.

I just think the reality is that we’re in a place in our politics where, for people who don’t know that much about what it means to be a Christian, the first thing that pops into their head is Trump—including his way of treating other people. Do you think that evangelicals’ widespread support for President Trump has damaged the witness of the Church?

Haslam: I do think your question is fair. There have been a lot of people, particularly younger people, whom I’ve talked with who say, “If that’s what the Church is, then I don’t really want to be a part of it.” There’s been damage to the Church by the identification with this political cause—that’s really, really fair. But, again, how did we get here, where people who claim that their faith is the most important thing in their life are having their political actions look very different from what they say they believe? I think that’s a disease that can infect people from both parties.

Some of it can come from a not good place in people loving to see a fight. Especially a fight between people on the same side when you're on the other side.

But there's also an element of good in it where we need to police ourselves. 

Knowing Haslam, I think he's genuinely slow to criticize. I get it. It's Dale Carnegie 101 stuff. He's rich and I don't think he'll run again for office. So he's not being political. I think he's just that kind of person slow to criticize.

 

[Joe Bryant]

At this point, I'm far less concerned with the effect that Christianity is having on the GOP than I am about the effect the GOP is having on Christianity.  

100%. This has always been my concern.

Admittedly, I care a zillion times more about my faith than I do the Republican or Democratic party. 

 

[Manster]

This is the Christian struggle.  To be Christ-like is be steadfast in the face persecution, hate, disbelief.....but not aggressive.  Always showing, love, kindness, and patience, even towards those who throw stones.  Never retaliate.......but we fall short.  It's kind of the point.

Just like any institution, a churches leadership sets the tone.  The tone should be to not engage, especially in social media, and continue to strive to be Christ-like.....believer or non-believer, those who TRULY strive to be like Christ are pretty dang good people.

I honestly believe where the main problem arises is with our children.  There is always an ongoing battle for the minds of the young.  This is getting more intense as we move along as a society.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Well, the reason I ask is that many years ago, I understood evangelicals to be “born agains” meaning those who were saved by His grace simply by seeking salvation by inviting Christ into their hearts. But over the past 20 years or so, I’ve come to associate “evangelicals” (in the U.S. at least) as a political descriptor more than anything. Which appears to be central to Haslam’s point. But I also think that continuing to identify as an “evangelical Christian” as opposed to “a Christian” has a tendency to perpetuate the conflation of religion and politics that he laments. And by suggesting that his “fellow Christians” turn off Fox News, it appears that he acknowledges to some degree that his brand of Christianity is inextricably tied to a political ideology. I think it’s one thing to urge that Christians be more charitable to those who hold opposing political views, but entirely another to suggest that religion be uncoupled from politics. In this brief paragraph (which could mischaracterize or oversimplify his views), Haslam seems to focus more on the former than the latter. I would argue that both are laudable views in any event. 

Thanks GB. I might be misremembering but  I thought I remember a thread where we talked a lot about the definition of "evangelical". For me personally, it's completely lost any real meaning. I don't know any Christians who would disagree we're called to tell others about Jesus and reflect Jesus well and invite them to follow Jesus which is evangelizing. So I've always thought "Evangelical Christian" was an odd term. To me, it's like saying "Love Your Neighbor Christian".  All Christians are "Evangelical Christians" or "Love Your Neighbor" Christians. That's a pretty big part of the term Christian. Now whether we actually do that well is another issue. 

So basically, I don't really know what she's meaning there or what her intent was in how she wrote that. 

For what its worth, the Christians I know best all definitely act in ways that are evangelical. But none of them, including myself, would normally refer to themselves as Evangelical Christians. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

I was talking about this article with the man who's probably had more impact on my faith than anyone and he said, "It’s hard to see the church’s way forward since so many have exchanged the rich meat of laboring and longing for God’s Kingdom for the thin soup of political passion and culture war."

But he also encouraged me that this specific situation is remarkable, but the general state of things with the church having problems on the inside and facing pressure from the outside is not new. 

I was talking to some other Christians about this today and they were a little discouraged that it seems the attitude and actions of a Donald Trump seem more associated with Christians than the words of a Bill Haslam. I told them to just keep reflecting Jesus well. Personal interactions with your neighbors and people you work with and people in your community or circle don't "scale" well. So the impact can seem small and slow. But I don't have any alternatives other than continuing to try and do the right thing. 

 

[bigbottom]

I was talking about this article with the man who's probably had more impact on my faith than anyone and he said, "It’s hard to see the church’s way forward since so many have exchanged the rich meat of laboring and longing for God’s Kingdom for the thin soup of political passion and culture war."

That is put so, so well. I’m out of touch because I married into a Catholic family and now attend mass where the homilies are scripture focused and rarely touch on current events directly. Much different than the sermons at the non-Catholic churches I attended way back when. Are the pastors of these churches partaking in the “soup of political passion and culture war?” And to what extent does this fall along the lines of the Reverend Wright sermons that were highlighted during the Obama candidacy?  I wonder if the desire to put “butts in pews” impacts a church leader’s willingness to engage messages that are welcomed by the congregation but may be more soup than labor and longing. 

 

[sho nuff]

That is put so, so well. I’m out of touch because I married into a Catholic family and now attend mass where the homilies are scripture focused and rarely touch on current events directly. Much different than the sermons at the non-Catholic churches I attended way back when. Are the pastors of these churches partaking in the “soup of political passion and culture war?” And to what extent does this fall along the lines of the Reverend Wright sermons that were highlighted during the Obama candidacy?  I wonder if the desire to put “butts in pews” impacts a church leader’s willingness to engage messages that are welcomed by the congregation but may be more soup than labor and longing. 

Which is an interesting observation as when I was in High School and college not having been in the south long…people would question me about my Catholic faith.  They felt things were not scripture based and Id have to explain things.  Even my wife had people question here when she was dating a Catholic.  Asking her if I believed in Jesus.  I was like…yeah, who do they think that guy on the Crucifix in every Catholic church is?     
That said…I have heard of Catholic priests who use the homily to get political…Im thankful ours have not.  The most political one got was just saying your vote os yours and not for others to tell you how to vote.  And basic generic prayers for our leaders. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

That is put so, so well. I’m out of touch because I married into a Catholic family and now attend mass where the homilies are scripture focused and rarely touch on current events directly. Much different than the sermons at the non-Catholic churches I attended way back when. Are the pastors of these churches partaking in the “soup of political passion and culture war?” And to what extent does this fall along the lines of the Reverend Wright sermons that were highlighted during the Obama candidacy?  I wonder if the desire to put “butts in pews” impacts a church leader’s willingness to engage messages that are welcomed by the congregation but may be more soup than labor and longing. 

The bolded is a great question, @bigbottom.  My personal experience in my own church is "not at all." I go to a large mainstream Presbyterian church and our attitude has always been apolitical. But overall, I think we've seen other Christian leaders get more into that. 

 

[sho nuff]

@Joe Bryant

Wondering there in East TN if you have had much news about what is going on here with Global Vision Church and their pastor Greg Locke?  He seems to be making some national news with his wild sermons and politically charged services.

 

[Joe Bryant]

@Joe Bryant

Wondering there in East TN if you have had much news about what is going on here with Global Vision Church and their pastor Greg Locke?  He seems to be making some national news with his wild sermons and politically charged services.

A little bit. Most every Christian I know sees him like Westboro Baptist type stuff. 

The attention I see coming from it is all from places like Right Wing Watch that have a vested interest in painting the "other" side as radical and crazy. When in my experience, the "other" side they're describing does not fit the description at all. But there's attention and clicks in making it seem so.

I saw someone talking about online earlier this week. I sent this to some of my guys.

The reality to me though is this is pretty interesting. 

Here's the church's "about us" page. https://globalvisionbc.com/aboutus

Biblical Preaching, Extravagant Generosity, Radical Compassion.

They believe the Bible is the word of God. Salvation is through Jesus. Doctrine of the Trinity. All pretty regular. 

And for sure, the video clip was distributed by a group who has the motivation of making the right (and by association Christians) look bad. For all I know this pastor does tons of great stuff. But this is ugly. 

This is a thing though: My guess is most of my Christian friends see that video and would say they completely disagree with it. 

BUT, many of my non Christians friends see that video and assume that's normal at most churches. 

I'm not sure where any of it leads or if there's any action. Just something I was thinking about today.

 

[sho nuff]

A little bit. Most every Christian I know sees him like Westboro Baptist type stuff. 

The attention I see coming from it is all from places like Right Wing Watch that have a vested interest in painting the "other" side as radical and crazy. When in my experience, the "other" side they're describing does not fit the description at all. But there's attention and clicks in making it seem so.

I saw someone talking about online earlier this week. I sent this to some of my guys.

Thanks.

Ive seen a few things on local news and not just the make the other side look bad (he seems to do so on his own...and his inviting Roger Stone there last year seemed to invite such criticism and that he seems more political than pastor in many ways).

Its interesting as this place isn't far from me and I have driven past it quite a bit over the years.  From a small little building space...to the huge tent now permanently there that you see in the video clips.  And an ever expanding footprint where they are (still a lot of construction going on).

Adding:  It also seems that his over the top stuff is intentional to get attention and its the type of attention that tends to shine a negative light on Christians when it comes to politics and overall.  Can turn others off with how over the top he is.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Adding:  It also seems that his over the top stuff is intentional to get attention and its the type of attention that tends to shine a negative light on Christians when it comes to politics and overall.  Can turn others off with how over the top he is.

Yes. I don't see anything "Christian" at all about the clips I've seen. It's unfortunate as for lots of people who don't know, they'll assume Christians don't think this is nuts. Every Christian I know thinks his video stuff is way out of bounds for anything close to normal. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

But I'd also add, it's effective. And both sides do it. My right leaning friends love to do the same thing finding the most extreme radical left thing they can and saying, "See Democrats are out of touch with reality". 

It sucks all around. 

But it get clicks and the "other" side loves it. 

 

[massraider]

Yes. I don't see anything "Christian" at all about the clips I've seen. It's unfortunate as for lots of people who don't know, they'll assume Christians don't think this is nuts. Every Christian I know thinks his video stuff is way out of bounds for anything close to normal. 

To bring this back around, it seems like Haslem is thinking this about some outlets that Christians consider ''normal''. 

He's smart to keep it vague.  If you point out Jim Bakker, you have by extension called everyone who listens to Jim Bakker a dummy, and you lost 'em.  Keep it vague, hopefully other leaders can pick up that message, and let people walk away from the charlatans on their own. Once the ball gets going in a direction, it moves fast. 

Are there other powerful Christian voices doing this, that you know of? 

 

[sho nuff]

But I'd also add, it's effective. And both sides do it. My right leaning friends love to do the same thing finding the most extreme radical left thing they can and saying, "See Democrats are out of touch with reality". 

It sucks all around. 

But it get clicks and the "other" side loves it. 

Definitely sucks that the outliers…the most vocal get the most attention.

 

[Joe Bryant]

To bring this back around, it seems like Haslem is thinking this about some outlets that Christians consider ''normal''. 

Hi @massraider  I'm not sure I understand the above. Can you elaborate please?

And for other Christian voices "doing this", what do you mean by "this"?

If you mean calling out folks like the Locke guy Shonuff asked about, I'm not sure. As it's always a weird balance. I saw some like Jen Hatmaker roasting Locke as unhinged. The flip side to that is I honestly don't care to give the guy any mention or attention. So it's kind of a tricky. 

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Bill Haslam is a (distant) friend of mine. Big deal. He's the kind of guy that has a zillion friends. I saw him at a UT football game a few years ago with my friend Nigel Eccles and Haslam gave me a hug. Nigel was surprised and said, "The governor hugs you?". I said, "He hugs everyone." It was his business to know most every business owner in Knoxville, TN where I live when he was mayor here. And then on to governor. We go to the same church. I've been around him enough to believe what you see in public is how he is. I like him a lot. For someone like me that has a framed picture of Mr. Rogers on the wall, he's my kind of guy. 

I thought this article was interesting as it seems like he and I are very closely aligned on how we see things. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/06/bill-haslam-trump-evangelicals/619101/

Must have really spooked you how much Trump has raised recently as a FORMER President....you're a businessman, you can connect the dots. 

You keep trying to somehow act disappointed that the GOP is not how you remember 10-20 years ago, if you haven't been told this already, the GOP party that Haslam is trying to discuss and you keep hoping will come back is DEAD, that ship has sailed. Marco Rubio? He couldn't win any more of the primary votes right now than Kamala Harris did running for the Democrats. That fire that you hate from the Trump-GOP Party, that burn or coin has two sides. It enrages folks like you and it galvanizes a lot of others. 

I used to think there wasn't much difference in the middle of the road Libs vs GOP but that simply is not the case anymore, everything is an argument and a fight.   

"Luke, search your feelings" and start with the Top 20-30 Urban Cities all controlled by the Party you ID with and turning them into wastelands, that must upset you at least a little. 

 

[massraider]

Hi @massraider  I'm not sure I understand the above. Can you elaborate please?

And for other Christian voices "doing this", what do you mean by "this"?

If you mean calling out folks like the Locke guy Shonuff asked about, I'm not sure. As it's always a weird balance. I saw some like Jen Hatmaker roasting Locke as unhinged. The flip side to that is I honestly don't care to give the guy any mention or attention. So it's kind of a tricky. 

I meant that this guy wasn't talking about Locke, he was talking about things Christians might not consider extreme at all. Locke shouldn't be in this thread.  

What I mean by 'this' is speaking up about maybe trying to separate church from politics.  

 

[Joe Bryant]

I meant that this guy wasn't talking about Locke, he was talking about things Christians might not consider extreme at all. Locke shouldn't be in this thread.  

What I mean by 'this' is speaking up about maybe trying to separate church from politics.  

I personally think there should be a bright line between church and politics. I don't sweat at all removing school prayer and such. I think that's proper. That was preached often at my church (where Haslam is also a member) and my guess is he'd say the same. There was a (in my opinion, ridiculous) attempt to make the bible the TN state book during Haslam's tenure and he said no. Most every Christian I know totally agreed with him. Although a story about some redneck screaming about it gets way more clicks. 

The trouble though with politics and faith is it can get into more gray areas. And it's been my experience, the more one favors a position, the more they don't mind blending politics and faith.

Tim Keller is basically the Pope of mainstream protestants and he's spoken about refugees for instance.

"Tim Keller, Ann Voskamp Among Christian Leaders Featured In Ad Denouncing Trump's Refugee Ban"

But that's not too interesting. "All Christians are Trump Bootlickers" is much more fun. 

Most Christians I know feel like it's a delicate balance between the two worlds of politics and faith. Me included. But I also think we do well to keep them distinctly separate. 

 

[Sinn Fein]

Although a story about some redneck

nice.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I meant that this guy wasn't talking about Locke, he was talking about things Christians might not consider extreme at all. Locke shouldn't be in this thread.  

I can see that. Locke is such an outlier I'm not sure he's what Haslam was talking about. 

 

[sho nuff]

Sure and my question was really just to wonder what Joe might have heard about Locket outside of the middle TN news that I see.  And this seemed as good of a place as any to ask.