Frank Thomas (1 Viewer)

[TitusIII]

What you say?

Just want to get some opinions on this guy. Been enjoying his season with the A's and never realized the eye-popping numbers he has put up over his career.

 

[Big Papi]

No

Hall of Fame <> Hall of Very Good

 

[Capella]

NoHall of Fame <> Hall of Very Good

Uh, you better go look at some stats. Frank is a lock to get in.

 

[Green94]

I vote Yes. He put together some amazing years in the early 90's.

 

[mlball77]

I don't think he's a first ballot HOF'er... but he'll get in, imo.

Less than 20 more HRs and he'll have 500, to go with a career BA over .300 and a OBP well over .400. The guy could hit.

 

[Big Papi]

NoHall of Fame <> Hall of Very Good

Uh, you better go look at some stats. Frank is a lock to get in.

Fair enough, but no way on the first ballot

 

[SofaKings]

I think he'll get in. Definitely not on the first ballot.

 

[TitusIII]

Just found this article. These numbers are first ballot worthy, IMO. His OBP is #13 all time.

One of the best right hand hitters to ever play, and in his prime he intimidated pitchers like few others.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5915284

Thus far in 2006, Thomas is hitting .263 AVG/.388 OBP/.511 SLG, and he's on pace for 35(more like 45) homers and 87 walks (and that's after an April in which he batted .190). He's doing what he's always done: hitting for power and getting on base. It's also a welcome return to health for Thomas, who missed more than 200 games from 2004-2005. This season, the A's DH did spend two weeks on the disabled list with a strained quad, but he's played in 108 of Oakland's 130 games. In other words, he's exceeded most expectations in terms of durability and productivity.

So it's a genuine renaissance for a player who, in the final analysis, should be remembered as one of the greatest right-handed hitters in the annals of the sport. Let's examine why that's the case:

Thomas has authored a career batting line of .305 AVG/.425 OBP/.565 SLG. That OBP is good for 13th on the all-time list, and Thomas' .565 SLG ranks 15th all-time (minimum 3,000 plate appearances on both counts).

Thomas needs only 25 more homers to reach 500 for his career. Also, as Richard Lederer at BaseballAnalysts.com pointed out in an exceptional article on Thomas, he's almost certain to end his career as only the seventh player to retire with at least 500 homers and a career batting average of at least .300. The others on that exclusive list are Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth, Willie Mays, Jimmie Foxx, Ted Williams and Mel Ott. Needless to say, that's an elite crop of fellow travelers.

Thomas has always boasted exceptional patience at the plate. Ten times he's logged at least 100 walks in a season (and four times he's led the league), and his career tally of 1,533 free passes ranks 14th all-time. Also, for his career his walk total exceeds his strikeout total by more than 400.

In terms of adjusted OPS (on-base percentage plus slugging percentage, adjusted for park and league) Thomas ranks 14th on the all-time list.

Not enough is said about Thomas' otherworldly season in 1994. His efforts that year are largely forgotten because of the labor stoppage that snuffed out the World Series, and that's a shame. On the year, Thomas throttled AL pitchers to the tune of .353 AVG/.487 OBP/.729 SLG.

Pro-rate his numbers to a full season, and he would've notched 54 homers, 49 doubles, 156 walks, 417 total bases and 152 runs scored on the year. Very simply, it would've been one of the greatest seasons anyone's ever seen.

If Thomas this season does reach the 35-homer mark, it'll be the eighth-highest total ever for a player age 38 or older.

According to the Baseball Prospectus statistic "Value Over Replacement Player," Thomas this season has been almost twice as valuable at the plate than the next-most productive Oakland hitter (Nick Swisher). Again, not bad for an afterthought, on-the-cheap addition.

As for his award dossier, Thomas is a two-time MVP, a five-time All-Star (at the very least, he should've been a part of nine Mid-Summer Classics), four-time Silver Slugger and one-time batting champ.

Let's also not forget that Thomas was a conspicuous critic of performance-enhancing drugs long before it was fashionable to be just that. The knowledge that he achieved his amazing statistical bestowals on the level should hearten any fan of the game.

All of this isn't meant as an argument for Thomas' place in Cooperstown — his status as a first-ballot Hall of Famer should not even be subject to debate.

Anyone who sees him as anything less is hopelessly misguided.

Rather, it's a reminder of what a tremendous and rare performer we have in our midst. Thomas may be in the waning hours of his career, and that means it's time to reflect on what an amazing career it's been. Don't let his injuries or his occasional recalcitrance detract from that fact.

Frank Thomas has been a gift to baseball fans. He should be remembered for what he is: one of the greatest hitters ever to play the game.

 

[Limp Ditka]

The numbers say he is.

The fact that he was a DH for a majority of his career will probably be a hinderance to him actually being one.

 

[TitusIII]

The numbers say he is.The fact that he was a DH for a majority of his career will probably be a hinderance to him actually being one.

I think he has played 50% of his games at 1st, and the other 50% at DH, but you are correct. 1st ballot or no, he is a lock.

 

[trader jake]

Frank Thomas's personality keeps him out on the first ballot. His numbers make him a lock HOF in the 2nd or (worst case) 3rd year.

 

[Koya]

I say no. definately not first ballot and imo shouldnt make it at all.

a few years that rank wth thebet ever, but I dont think he had enough of those easons to earn HoF.

that said i need to check the stats again before forming a hard opinion.

 

[TitusIII]

I say no. definately not first ballot and imo shouldnt make it at all.a few years that rank wth thebet ever, but I dont think he had enough of those easons to earn HoF.that said i need to check the stats again before forming a hard opinion.

Thomas has authored a career batting line of .305 AVG/.425 OBP/.565 SLG. That OBP is good for 13th on the all-time list, and Thomas' .565 SLG ranks 15th all-time (minimum 3,000 plate appearances on both counts). Thomas needs only 25 more homers to reach 500 for his career. Also, as Richard Lederer at BaseballAnalysts.com pointed out in an exceptional article on Thomas, he's almost certain to end his career as only the seventh player to retire with at least 500 homers and a career batting average of at least .300. The others on that exclusive list are Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth, Willie Mays, Jimmie Foxx, Ted Williams and Mel Ott. Needless to say, that's an elite crop of fellow travelers. Thomas has always boasted exceptional patience at the plate. Ten times he's logged at least 100 walks in a season (and four times he's led the league), and his career tally of 1,533 free passes ranks 14th all-time. Also, for his career his walk total exceeds his strikeout total by more than 400. ---------If this isn't good enough for the hall, or the first ballot for that matter, we may as well burn the place down.

 

[Capella]

I say no. definately not first ballot and imo shouldnt make it at all.a few years that rank wth thebet ever, but I dont think he had enough of those easons to earn HoF.that said i need to check the stats again before forming a hard opinion.

Jesus, what more do you want, a .450 career OBP and a thousand home runs?Guy is a f'n lock. Look at the numbers, it's the biggest no-brainer ever.

 

[videoguy505]

"FIRST BALLOT HOF" is the stupidest thing the blowhards on sports talk TV and Radio ever came up with. You're just a Hall of Famer. There's no distinction. "First Ballot" doesn't mean anything. There's no sense behind "Mr. X deserves to be in the HOF, just not on the first ballot." If he deserves it, he deserves it.

I've been to the Hall in Cooperstown. There's no levels. There's no tiers. Babe Ruth's plaque isn't in the penthouse while Phil Rizzuto's out by the dumpsters. Babe Ruth is with his year of guys, Rizzuto's with his, and Frank Thomas will be with the class of 200-whatever. Everyone's equal in the Hall because that's the way it is. Once you're in, you're in.

 

[bentley]

"FIRST BALLOT HOF" is the stupidest thing the blowhards on sports talk TV and Radio ever came up with. You're just a Hall of Famer. There's no distinction. "First Ballot" doesn't mean anything. There's no sense behind "Mr. X deserves to be in the HOF, just not on the first ballot." If he deserves it, he deserves it. I've been to the Hall in Cooperstown. There's no levels. There's no tiers. Babe Ruth's plaque isn't in the penthouse while Phil Rizzuto's out by the dumpsters. Babe Ruth is with his year of guys, Rizzuto's with his, and Frank Thomas will be with the class of 200-whatever. Everyone's equal in the Hall because that's the way it is. Once you're in, you're in.

Technically, 201-whatever, but you're on a roll.

 

[the rover]

He'll get in, but not on the first ballot.

 

[videoguy505]

 

[TS Garp]

Thomas deserves to be in the Hall Of Fame, without a doubt. 2 MVP's, 5 Top 5 finishes etc, one of the best offensive players of his era etc. I don't think he'll make it on the first ballot, but he'll get in. I think a more interesting case is Jeff Bagwell. His stats are close to Thomas -- not quite as impressive, but he has 200+ steals. That said, the bulk of Bagwell's numbers came during the steroid era, which will make a lot of voters take his numbers with a grain of salt. Thoughts?

 

[BGP]

Even tho I hate the idea of a HOF, I still know the guy is a first-ballot HOF.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

If a slightly above average second baseman who had one big hit his entire career could get in ust because he was an above average defender, then Thomas should get his own wing.

 

[Capella]

If a slightly above average second baseman who had one big hit his entire career could get in ust because he was an above average defender, then Thomas should get his own wing.

Still mad over Mattingly eh?Mazeroski was a witch playing the infield.

 

[Despyzer]

NoHall of Fame <> Hall of Very Good

We got this idiotic answer on the SECOND post. Amazing! I doubt people even think about it anymore. They just see a thread involving the Hall of Fame and just throw this out without reading it or thinking about it."Should Jerry Rice be in the Hall of Fame?""No, it's the hall of FAME not the Hall of Very Good."I've got news for you. I wish it WAS the hall of Very Goog because being very good is a heckuva lot more impressive than being famous!Any imbecile that posts this statement in any HOF thread should receive a ban of at least one week and a kick in the kneck from Raidernation(s).

 

[BoulderBob]

This guy was a beast for most of the 90's. There was no hitter in the league at this time that put more fear into opposing pitchers than the Big Hurt. First ballot all the way.

 

[Corporation]

His numbers are more impressive again after the obvious steroid inflated numbers of his peers. He has always been a giant with no one ever even whispering roid claims.

HOF, toss up on first year but will be in by year 3 no doubt.

 

[dickey moe]

Of course.

 

[otello]

1st ballot - no question.

 

[Bluesbomber]

Frank Thomas played First Base until the White Sox got Paul Konerko for not very much from the Dodgers.

His stats hitting when he played first base in seasons where he did both have always been much better when playing the field.

 

[cosjobs]

First ballot, but this is flawed- it isn't a poll, its a topic

 

[Encyclopedia Brown]

Frank Thomas played First Base until the White Sox got Paul Konerko for not very much from the Dodgers.

His stats hitting when he played first base in seasons where he did both have always been much better when playing the field.

The Reds got him from the Dodgers.The White Sox got him from Cincy for Mike Cameron.

 

[FairWarning]

First ballot lock.

 

[urbanhack]

Yes.

 

[JetsJetsJets]

"FIRST BALLOT HOF" is the stupidest thing the blowhards on sports talk TV and Radio ever came up with. You're just a Hall of Famer. There's no distinction. "First Ballot" doesn't mean anything. There's no sense behind "Mr. X deserves to be in the HOF, just not on the first ballot." If he deserves it, he deserves it. I've been to the Hall in Cooperstown. There's no levels. There's no tiers. Babe Ruth's plaque isn't in the penthouse while Phil Rizzuto's out by the dumpsters. Babe Ruth is with his year of guys, Rizzuto's with his, and Frank Thomas will be with the class of 200-whatever. Everyone's equal in the Hall because that's the way it is. Once you're in, you're in.

I never understood it when some of the BBWA say "I may vote for him in a year or two, not just now." The stats don't get any better or worse....

 

[Bluesbomber]

Frank Thomas played First Base until the White Sox got Paul Konerko for not very much from the Dodgers.

His stats hitting when he played first base in seasons where he did both have always been much better when playing the field.

The Reds got him from the Dodgers.The White Sox got him from Cincy for Mike Cameron.

I remember that he came up with the Dodger's and they gave up on him. Forgot we gave up Cameron a pretty good CF for him and it was through the Reds.

Thanks for the info.

 

[TitusIII]

The Big Hurt is on fire....Unbelievable a man his size is still getting it done at his age. Dingers in five straight

 

[thecatch]

I say no. definately not first ballot and imo shouldnt make it at all.a few years that rank wth thebet ever, but I dont think he had enough of those easons to earn HoF.that said i need to check the stats again before forming a hard opinion.

You really need to go look at the stats again

 

[GiantsRule]

Without a doubt. First ballot all the way. Anyone that says otherwise doesn't have a clue.

A clean power hitter in the age of steroids hitting over .300 for his career, not to mention his individual accolades (including back-to-back MVPs), and on the brink of a "natural" 500 HRs. Will also finish high on the all-time list for runs and RBIs and has one of the best "eyes" in baseball (look at his walk totals).

All hail Future HOFer Big Hurt!

 

[GiantsRule]

6th straight game with a homer! That should lock up Comeback Player of the Year - another fine accolade for the future first ballot HOFer!

 

[Daywalker]

It was a big joke in my fantasy league when this owner finally picked up Thomas off the WW near mid-season. This owner has Thomas every year. I think since then Thomas has been a top 10 hitter.

.280, 40hr, 100 rbi season at this point in his career is amazing. Thomas is not looked at as a steroid user and I'd be shocked if he isn't a first-ballot HOF'er.

 

[DreadedParms]

I've said it in every other Frank Thomas thread, and I'll say it again - he was a senior at Columbus High School in Columbus, Georgia when I was freshman. He's a HOF lock. It's a shame he's got a rep for being a pain in the clubhouse, but you can't deny he's a helluva hitter.

 

[doctor Gunks]

I have no idea how a bunch of whiny, overly sensitive sportswriters will vote his first, second, etc. year because he could be a little abrasive and he's probably rubbed some the wrong way, but I would vote for him if I had a vote. This one is easy, people.

 

[doctor Gunks]

Runs Created

1991 AL-140-1st

1992 AL-136-1st

1993 AL-144-3rd

1994 AL-143-1st

1995 AL-137-3rd

1996 AL-152-4th

1997 AL-149-2nd

2000 AL-159-2nd

Argument over.

 

[TitusIII]

6 consecutive games with a homer! If this guy played on one of the coast-lines, there would already be a statue of his likeness in center field.

 

[GiantsRule]

Runs Created

1991 AL-140-1st

1992 AL-136-1st

1993 AL-144-3rd

1994 AL-143-1st

1995 AL-137-3rd

1996 AL-152-4th

1997 AL-149-2nd

2000 AL-159-2nd

Argument over.

He beat Ted Williams record of 6 straight seasons with a .300 batting average, 20+ home runs, 100 RBIs (eat it grammar police), 100 runs, and 100 walks. They are the only two to ever accomplish that feat. That alone should put him in. Once he gets his natural 500 dingers and as long as he an maintain a .300 career BA, it won't be a problem.

 

[TitusIII]

Runs Created

1991 AL-140-1st

1992 AL-136-1st

1993 AL-144-3rd

1994 AL-143-1st

1995 AL-137-3rd

1996 AL-152-4th

1997 AL-149-2nd

2000 AL-159-2nd

Argument over.

He beat Ted Williams record of 6 straight seasons with a .300 batting average, 20+ home runs, 100 RBIs (eat it grammar police), 100 runs, and 100 walks. They are the only two to ever accomplish that feat. That alone should put him in. Once he gets his natural 500 dingers and as long as he an maintain a .300 career BA, it won't be a problem.

The Big Hurt is larger than life! One of the best eyes the game has seen.

 

[Comb-Over Charlie]

 

[urbanhack]

Great article on the Big Hurt...

link

The Big Hurt = Best Ever?

By Andy Behrens

Special to Page 2

When you leave a long-time employer, they usually give you things. Like a plaque, maybe. Or a lump sum 401k distribution and a pamphlet on COBRA. Or a party where all your former co-workers get loaded and admit to inappropriate longings.

The point is, they almost always give you something, even when your employment ends badly.

"He's an idiot. He's selfish. That's why we don't miss him."

That's what White Sox general manager Kenny Williams gave Frank Thomas back in February. Simple, inelegant, and final. And maybe it's true. Frank could very well be a selfish idiot. He certainly isn't perfect. He never was a useful defensive first baseman, he doesn't exercise conversational restraint, and his short tenure as a music industry executive didn't exactly yield a mantel full of Grammys. Also, his performance alongside Tom Selleck in "Mr. Baseball" lacked élan. These are not small failings.

But what Frank Thomas could always do is hit. And he reminded his former employer of this recently, hitting two homers and driving in seven runs during a three-game Oakland sweep of the White Sox. Frank's resurgence at age 38 -- and it's not his first, with another at 32, hitting 43 home runs, and yet another at age 35, hitting 42 -- has left a swath of devastation in which we can find the piece of the 2006 White Sox. This resurgence is alas the latest piece of evidence in case that's increasingly easy to make: Frank Thomas is the greatest organically-grown hitter of his generation.

No, really.

Of course, no one wants to hear that. In the vast, awful universe of arcane sports debates, "Who's the game's best hitter?" is an essential question, and Big Hurt is never the answer. Instead, we look to myth and decontextualized statistics to find a response. Williams and Ruth are the names we reflexively reach for when we're talking about all-time greats. Or, if we're willing to consider Barry Bonds' age 36-39 seasons -- when he allegedly injected veterinary-grade hormones, ate the beating hearts of his victims, exposed himself to gamma ray bursts, and did various other irresponsible things -- then we give him the nod. Frank Thomas, who's been a vocal opponent of steroids longer than most writers and legislators, doesn't enter the discussion at all.

But here's the thing: Frank's peak years actually had no precedent. Between 1991 and 1997, he became the only player ever to score 100 runs, drive in 100, hit 20 or more homers, draw 100 walks, and bat .300 for seven consecutive seasons. His lowest on-base percentage during those seasons was .426. He finished among the top 10 in American League MVP voting each season, winning the award in 1993 and 1994. He's currently 11th on the all-time OPS list (on-base plus slugging), and he looks like a safe bet to pass 500 home runs sometime early next season (and he's talking 600). Not too shabby.

"We don't miss his attitude. We don't miss the whining. We don't miss it. Good riddance. See you later."

So fine, you're thinking. When he was in his mid-20s, Frank Thomas was great; now that he's old, he's still very good. But the best? Get over yourself. Well, if we sift through the all-time OPS leaders, we'll find only four guys above Frank who've been active at some point in the past 45 years. They're all active today, actually:

1. Babe Ruth, 1.164

2. Ted Williams, 1.116

3. Lou Gehrig, 1.080

4. Barry Bonds, 1.051

5. Albert Pujols, 1.047

6. Jimmie Foxx, 1.038

7. Todd Helton, 1.025

8. Hank Greenberg, 1.016

9. Manny Ramirez, 1.011

10. Rogers Hornsby, 1.010

11. Frank Thomas, 0.993

Maybe now you're indignant. Or you're slapping your monitor and saying "Stupid Page 2! Be funnier!"

Of those four active hitters, only Bonds has played well into the decline-phase of his career, and he's apparently been heavily medicated. Helton's numbers were radically enhanced by Coors Field, pre-humidor; these days, he's slipping fast. Manny is obviously brilliant, though when you account for park effects, Thomas in his prime was better than Manny in his. Jacobs Field in the late-'90s and Fenway in recent years were severely hitter-friendly; Comiskey was a solidly pitcher-friendly environment until 2000.

Pujols? Well, OK, he's a problem. That guy's pretty good. But through age 30, Thomas' career OPS was actually better. Frank has also posted an OBP of .450 or greater five times, something Pujols -- who, of course, may not have peaked -- has yet to do. Edge, Frank.

"We don't miss him, by the way. If you go out there and ask any one of my players or staff members, we don't miss him."

So, given his position on the all-time leader-boards, why don't we ever mention the Big Hurt when we consider the game's great hitters? There are three fundamental reasons:

Michael Jordan. Frank's best seasons overlapped almost perfectly with MJ's title years, when Jordan became the baseline standard for athletic superstardom in Chicago, and the Bulls were (with the notable exception of the '85 Bears) the greatest collection of human talent ever assembled for a common purpose. Jordan's standard was an utterly impossible one for a baseball player to meet. He won six championships and 10 scoring titles; Thomas won two division crowns, and consistently led the league in OBP and OPS. Not shabby, but not Jordan.

MJ's mid-career sabbatical should have allowed us all to recognize Frank's impossible talent, except …

1994. Frank had his best season -- and it's one of the all-time best seasons -- the same year that everyone decided to hate baseball: the strike year. Or maybe it was the lockout year. Anyway, we were all pretty mad in 1994. Here's what Thomas' numbers looked like after 113 games and 399 at bats: 106 R, 141 H, 34 2B, 38 HR, 101 RBI, 109 BB, .353 AVG, .487 OBP, .729 SLG.

Those rate stats are obscene. That's a 1.217 OPS. In major league history, only seven players have posted an OPS greater over the course of a single season. Five of them did it before the game was truly integrated (Ruth, Williams, Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, Rogers Hornsby), one of them isn't here to talk about the past (Mark McGwire), and the other thought he was maybe using flaxseed oil (Bonds). And that's it. If you concede nothing else to Frank, you need to give him 1994. In the modern, integrated era, it's the greatest 500-plus plate appearance season anyone's had. That we didn't fully appreciate it at the time has little to do with Frank, and a lot to do with the player/fan enmity that persisted until McGwire and Sosa saved/ruined baseball. And neither McGwire or Sosa did it with much …

Girth. Frank's galactically big. He's listed at 6-foot-5 and 275 pounds. Is it necessarily bad for a great athlete to be so large? No. But there has to be concomitant cuddliness. If you don't have cuddliness, you're wasting fat. And Frank's ratio of body mass to adorability is all wrong. If you're going to be big, be Big Papi. Or Charles Barkley. Or Gilbert Brown. Instead, Frank has been remarkably self-obsessed and almost willfully not adorable, grousing about the shortcomings of multi-million deals. That's rarely OK, regardless of mass.

Still, the guy rakes.

"I'm a general manager and I'm supposed to be above these things. But again, when is enough enough? He brought us to this point. So, OK, you want to play this game? You've got it. You got it. He's the Oakland A's problem right now."

More accurately, Frank Thomas is the Oakland A's MVP. His swing is still there, a terrible Hriniakian thing, as explosive and balanced and pained and perfect as it ever was. His glare is still a little absurd. He seems to be trying not to say the wrong things, which never comes easy. If, as Kenny Williams said, no member of the White Sox staff misses him, the same can't be said of their fans. They'll be debating (or lamenting) the Rowand/Thomas versus Anderson/Thome thing all offseason -- and the offseason for the White Sox begins October 2.

Frank's, of course, does not.

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

Yes, and still p1ssed that the Twins added Rondell White/Ruben Sierra instead of Frank before the season.

 

[Sam Quentin]

no question he is

 

[cstu]

1994. Frank had his best season -- and it's one of the all-time best seasons -- the same year that everyone decided to hate baseball: the strike year. Or maybe it was the lockout year. Anyway, we were all pretty mad in 1994. Here's what Thomas' numbers looked like after 113 games and 399 at bats: 106 R, 141 H, 34 2B, 38 HR, 101 RBI, 109 BB, .353 AVG, .487 OBP, .729 SLG.Those rate stats are obscene. That's a 1.217 OPS. In major league history, only seven players have posted an OPS greater over the course of a single season. Five of them did it before the game was truly integrated (Ruth, Williams, Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, Rogers Hornsby), one of them isn't here to talk about the past (Mark McGwire), and the other thought he was maybe using flaxseed oil (Bonds). And that's it. If you concede nothing else to Frank, you need to give him 1994. In the modern, integrated era, it's the greatest 500-plus plate appearance season anyone's had. That we didn't fully appreciate it at the time has little to do with Frank, and a lot to do with the player/fan enmity that persisted until McGwire and Sosa saved/ruined baseball. And neither McGwire or Sosa did it with much …

I'm a Big Hurt fan and the '94 strike when the Sox were the favorites to win the World Series alienated me from baseball and got me much more interested in football. As ridiculous as baseball is it wouldn't surprise me if he doesn't get in on the first ballot.