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Gates or V. Davis (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter LHUCKS
- Start date
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
Think you can make a case for Gates, Witten, Vernon, Dallas or Finley as the #1 TE. All about personal preference, how far out you want to look and risk tolerance
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FUBAR
Footballguy
Dallas Clark gets no love.If you want the proven stud and "only" 3-5 years out of them, Clark, Witten or Gates it is, Clark or Witten are the safer bets to be great, Gates could be elite again. VD and Winslow are the younger guys who are probably going to produce stud type stats but I think a bit less than Gates, Witten or Clark. Finley could be the next big thing but to me it's kind of like taking Jamal Charles as your top RB. Not quite as much of a reach but similar risk.
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fruity pebbles
Footballguy
And alot depends on your team makeup. I'd be more apt to take Vernon or Finley in a new startup or if i was rebuilding and would rather have Gates or Dallas if i was in win now mode. Witten i think you can make a case for either.
JuSt CuZ
Footballguy
LOL....Its Dynasty people.
Gates is 29 years old, and Davis is 25.
Davis is currently performing better then Gates.
Whats the discussion as to who you should take...
If your a fan of one I understand, but to want to take a guy whos 29 over a guy who performed better and is younger...well your overthinking it a bit.
I would even take Finley over Gates, I would be willing to bet Finley puts up just about the same stats as Gates next year.
I love when people think age dont matter, cuz u hold on to Gates, his value can only decrease.
Part of managing your team is maximizing value!
Gates is 29 years old, and Davis is 25.
Davis is currently performing better then Gates.
Whats the discussion as to who you should take...
If your a fan of one I understand, but to want to take a guy whos 29 over a guy who performed better and is younger...well your overthinking it a bit.
I would even take Finley over Gates, I would be willing to bet Finley puts up just about the same stats as Gates next year.
I love when people think age dont matter, cuz u hold on to Gates, his value can only decrease.
Part of managing your team is maximizing value!
I love it when people overestimate the importance of age
brewer
Footballguy
Not sure I completely agree with this statement:Gates2009 SD 16 0 79 1157 14.6 8Davis2009 SF 16 0 78 965 12.4 13Davis had more TDs this year obviously, but Gates had more yardage on essentially the same amount of catches and his TD numbers were solid. Davis ended with more fantasy points this year, but I would like to see him do something similar this year before I would trade Gates for him, even in a dynasty format.
LHUCKS
Footballguy
Exactly
Davis has had one good year are you ready to declare him better than Gates because he is younger. Gates is 29 and can probably play TE at a high level for another 4-5 years. Again with Gates you know what you are getting davis in my opinion is still a crap-shoot
PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
I think people are showing faith in Vernon because it seems like Singletary has gotten through to him. I would say you are correct though that he's a candidate for relapse into his old ways. I would probably still go with the younger player, but it's a close call.
LHUCKS
Footballguy
This is the assumption that I just don't understand...all of a sudden every TE can play into their mid 30s?
Instinctive
Footballguy
No, not every TE. But if you look at how many TEs have done what Gates has done to this point in HIS career, you get only 3 guys: Tony Gonzalez, Shannon Sharpe, Jason Witten.Witten is still young, so he can't be a predictor.
That leaves Sharpe and Gonzalez. Gonzalez is the modern era guy: He has produced thus far to age 34. You simply cannot take a simply "well most guys..." rule and apply it to somebody who is absolutely an elite talent. Far and away one fo the best pass catching TEs ever.
What if I wrote his name like this "Gates, Antonio, WR"
Would you be expecting a dropoff? He runs a huge amount of his routes by splitting outside and acting as a 3rd or 4th wideout anyway.
Every TE????? No. This TE? Heck yes he can.
My reasoning now for Gates v Davis: I want Gates. I expect 3-4 more years. In that time, I think that I can easily acquire Zach Miller (Jags) or Jared Cook (TEN) or maybe even the Z Miller Raiders version as a very cheap replacement that can be ready to go as soon as Gates starts to fall off. In fact, I've built most of my teams the past 2 years at the TE position by acquiring Jermichael Finley and Z Miller (Jags) for when Clark/Gates do fall off. Heck, I could also stash Martellus Bennett for right around the time Gates starts to slow.
Davis has done it one year. Heath Miller did it one year too---want him over Gates?
EDIT: spelling
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brewer
Footballguy
I was with you until this. Miller has never had a year even close to what Davis just did. Gates has had 6 of those years though....
Davis was actually the better blocker this year. But if we're talking fantasy, I'd have to go with Gates. His advantage in reliability (and being part of a great passing game) trumps his disadvantage in age.
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Rovers
Footballguy
I may be wrong, but Gates looks like he's put on some weight and is just a tiny bit slower than he has been previously. Still, he's money in the bank, and a sure bet to be very good for at least another 2 years, perhaps longer.
I voted Davis because I think he has the ability to improve over this year's performance. This was his breakout year, but is it his ceiling? In a redraft I think it's close. In a dynasty, I'll take Davis. He seems to have finally matured under Singletary and his TE coach.
In a dynasty league, would you trade Davis for Gates straight up? I don't think I would.
I voted Davis because I think he has the ability to improve over this year's performance. This was his breakout year, but is it his ceiling? In a redraft I think it's close. In a dynasty, I'll take Davis. He seems to have finally matured under Singletary and his TE coach.
In a dynasty league, would you trade Davis for Gates straight up? I don't think I would.
LHUCKS
Footballguy
I was just gonna post that Gates is starting to decline based on the "eye test" and Davis appears to be gaining...I see these two going in opposite directions IMHO.
FantasyTrader
Footballguy
I hear what you're saying and I totally agree with it. But you're talking as though what Davis did this year is a full blown stone cold LOCK to continue. It's not. Gates is a proven commodity over years. Now I'll give you the chances are much more likely that light finally came on for Davis, rather than him being a one-year wonder, but it's not unheard of for a player to post a single season of stats for the ages and dip back into relative obscurity. Give me ONE more year of Vernon duplicating these numbers and another candle on the cake for Gates and I'll be on board with taking Davis instead. "...but to want to take a guy whos 29 over a guy who performed better and is younger...well your overthinking it a bit." No. You're underthinking it. By a good bit.JuSt CuZ said:
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
Thing is one more year of Vernon doing what he did this year and another candle on Gates candle and you wouldnt be able to sniff Gates for Vernon.
DoubleG
Footballguy
You do realize that Davis has already been in the league 4 years right? Gates put up numbers in his 2nd year like VD did this season (his 4th). The assumption that since a player outperformed his average stats, the arrow is automatically pointing up is an assumption too often made in FF. One could also suggest that Vernon Davis had a career year in '09. Especially if you consider the fact that his QB is awful, and Crabtree will only continue to take catches away as he develops into a true #1 WR.Going forward, I think VD is a fine top 5 TE - but not better than Gates (and definately not by "quite a bit"). Younger <> better and in Davis case, there are 3 season's worth of performance that suggest that he may not be an elite TE (of which we are certain Gates is). I would almost be more inclined to put Finley ahead of VD, simply becuase VD has a 3 mediocre seasons and 1 great one. Finley has only started 12 games in the NFL - and looked very good when he has.
If I had to rank the top 5 Dynasty TEs it'd probably look like this:
1) Gates
2) Witten
3) Clark
4) Finley
5) Davis
FantasyTrader
Footballguy
I don't want to sniff Gates for Vernon. That's the point. Vernon snaps his ACL next year and you couldn't sniff Zach Miller for Vernon. But that has nothing to do with the value we assign to them on 2-1-10.
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fruity pebbles
Footballguy
If often takes tight ends a few years to break out. I personally give VD a pass for last year because of Martz. Dallas clark took 5 years to break out and have a top fantasy year.
DoubleG
Footballguy
True. But Peyton Manning <>Alex Smith. Nor does Alex Smith = Romo, Rivers or Rodgers. I think some of Davis's success in '09 was a combination of factors that may not happen again - he had a bad "check down" QB who was that way partially becuase the WR they had drafted didn't show up until after their bye week. You had Gore miss games and be dinged up even when he was playing. I just think going forward, with Crabtree getting a full preseason under his belt, if the 49ers look to improve at QB, Gore stays healthier, etc. - there are many more reasons to fear that Davis will regress some rather than progress. With the other 4 TEs ahead of him, those same concerns simply aren't there.
Rovers
Footballguy
With 4 other TE's ahead of him? On your list maybe, not on mine. I guess you forgot about O. Daniels? You put Davis below Finley because he's only done it for one year? How many years has Finley done it?My dynasty list:
Davis
Daniels
Clark
Gates
Witten
I'm hard pressed to not include Celek over Finley. I don't see any of your "reasons" as justification to predict Davis just had his career year. Are you ranking QB's or TE's here? I think it is the former.
FantasyTrader
Footballguy
#2. Daniels!?! Coming off of an ACL tear? Interesting. I'm a Daniels dynasty owner and I'm not that optimistic.
Sinrj
Footballguy
You may want to rethink this one.(top 10 finish, FBG scoring)
Gates: 2nd season
Witten: 2nd season
Gonzalez: 2nd season
Clark : 5th
Cooley : 2nd
Daniels : 2nd
Heap : 2nd
Olsen : 2nd
Keller : still waiting
Celek : 3rd
Davis: 4th
Finley : still waiting
Winslow : 3rd (or 2nd?)
Z. Miller : still waiting
Carlson: 1st
H. Miller : 3rd
Shockey: 1st
Polar Dude
Footballguy
If I must keep both, why would it matter which one I would want?But, for the record, it has to be Gates. Consistently a better player, with a much better guy throwing to him. Davis is also needed to block more than Gates is, making him less available to put up FF numbers.
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fruity pebbles
Footballguy
You could make the case then that Vernon broke out in year two using some of these guys as reference. Miller 566 7
Carlson 627 5
Olsen 574 5
Vernon in year two 509 4 but missed two games due to injury. Then regressed with Martz in year 3.
FantasyTrader
Footballguy
I'm on the Gates side of the argument here, but Davis was actually targeted 129 times to Gates' 113, making him more available to put up FF numbers. Though I agree with the argument that Crabtree's late arrival in 2009 should also be factored in. It's yet to be seen what he'll siphon from Davis' looks moving forward. It could also be argued Crabtree HELPS Davis overall however. Also, I'm not so quick to get on board with those saying that Alex Smith can't hold a candle to Rivers, Manning, etc. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Smith is on par with those guys but it's still fairly early in his career. He could develop into a consistent top 5-7 QB.
I'm not saying he is going to definitely improve on his 2009 numbers, just that he is now a legitimate receiving weapon and will be used a lot in the passing game getting a lot of targets. Also he has better big play ability then any TE in the NFL.I think at this point anyone having Finley over him is crazy. Not that Finley can't end up better, but the risk/reward on Finley vs Vernon isn't even close at this point in time. I like Finley a lot, but he isn't in VD's class yet.
It isn't like all of a sudden SF is going to stop throwing to Vernon, and a good WR can help a TE as much as hurt him. Crabtree could very well help Vernon as this past season a safety was almost always shifted to defend Vernon deep down the middle.
Instinctive
Footballguy
Finley played the second half of the season, and scored very well compared to the full season of most TEs. Actually, his pace was almost exactly, if not slightly higher than iirc, that which Owen Daniels had through the first half of the season. So Daniels and Finley both had near identical halves of a season. Finley is 3 (4?) year younger. Finley is not coming off an ACL injury. Finley has a top 5 QB, and not a top 10 one, throwing to him.
Gates
Finley
Witten
Davis
Clark
If you ask me. Witten is still pretty young, tough to put Davis over a guy who is nearly guaranteed 70+ rec for around 1000+ yards. TDs will eventually come. I would say that Finley broke out at least as much as Davis did this year, considering half a season was played due to injury.
LHUCKS
Footballguy
I worded that poorly...if you had to keep one or the other (ie couldn't trade off of your roster) which one would you want added to your roster today.In other words, dynasty ranking.
Instinctive
Footballguy
Haha. Shtick. Less crap like this would probably get you less crap like I'm giving right now. What points have you made? You think Gates will fall off in 1 year, maybe 2. I think he goes 4-5 based on the fact that there simply aren't any precedents for a player of his caliber except Tony Gonzalez and Shannon Sharpe, both ofwhom performed 5 more years at an extremely high level.Vernon Davis has had one good year. When the RB was hurt and the team had almost zero options at WR. Sure, he could be great and consistent for the next 5 years and beyond. But I know that barring injury, Gates is a guy who has proven he is absolutely A CUT ABOVE EVERYONE ELSE, he's going to get the ball, and he has a top 5 QB.EDIT:I would also rather have Finley than Davis. On a team with a productive ground game and 3 other viable passing options, with an OLine that can only get better, also with a top 5 QB, he (in the half season he played...he missed half due to injury) performed at least as well as Davis. And that was probably not what his ceiling is. Now, he also could be a flash in the pan. It's possible. But in my mind, it is no less likely that Finley is a flahs than it is that Davis is a flash here as well.
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JuSt CuZ
Footballguy
LOL....You dont have to be a genius to see Davis is a huge talent.
I love when people just rate a player by there performance in the past year when we are actually ranking for the following year!
Gates is gonna be a year older and VJax is now even another year into taking the reigns as the #1 option, in years past it was Gates.....Not so much anymore.
Davis is gonna be a year deeper into an offense that is clearly designed to get him the ball, unlike the offense of Nolan and Martz (Just for the people who reference that hes been in the league 4 years), even though they have Crabtree, Davis seems to be the favorite target of Smith and a very good option talent wise.
I love when people just rate a player by there performance in the past year when we are actually ranking for the following year!
Gates is gonna be a year older and VJax is now even another year into taking the reigns as the #1 option, in years past it was Gates.....Not so much anymore.
Davis is gonna be a year deeper into an offense that is clearly designed to get him the ball, unlike the offense of Nolan and Martz (Just for the people who reference that hes been in the league 4 years), even though they have Crabtree, Davis seems to be the favorite target of Smith and a very good option talent wise.
Polar Dude
Footballguy
Firstly, being the #1 in SD is a lot like being the #1 guy in NO right now. Both QBs believe in distributing the ball a lot and don't rely heavily on any one guy.Secondly, it wouldn't shock me a great deal if Jackson was on another team next year or the year after.
FantasyTrader
Footballguy
What I love is when people get a "chuckle" out of traits they see in others, when they themselves are the epitome of it. Now, following the first year in...ever...in Davis' & Gates' 4th and 7th seasons respectively that Davis posted better stats, is when it's easiest to swoop in and rank Davis the higher dynasty commodity. In the last 6 years by my league's scoring - Gates has gone 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 3rd. Forgive me if I'm hesitant to send Davis (28th, 13th, 2nd over the last three) ahead of Gates so easily. And I totally agree, Davis really is a MONSTER talent.
gonzobill5
Footballguy
I wanted to point out the Gates outproduced Davis on a per target basis in 2009 (despite the high touchdown totals), then I noticed something else...
Is it true that VD tied the record for TDs by a TE? According to the historical data dominator he tied Gates' 2005 for the most in the modern era.
The two big questions IMO are
- what does Davis become if Alex Smith isn't the QB?
- how much of his 2009 season was due to his cakewalk schedule?
Personally, I don't think Davis is near the same level as Gates when is comes to receiving. But, he's proven me wrong before.
Is it true that VD tied the record for TDs by a TE? According to the historical data dominator he tied Gates' 2005 for the most in the modern era.
The two big questions IMO are
- what does Davis become if Alex Smith isn't the QB?
- how much of his 2009 season was due to his cakewalk schedule?
Personally, I don't think Davis is near the same level as Gates when is comes to receiving. But, he's proven me wrong before.
LHUCKS
Footballguy
Davis is faster.Davis is younger.Davis is stronger.Davis is still improving.
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I actually agree on all these points, but even still, I'd want Gates for the next 4-5 years on my dynasty squad rather than Davis. I voted as such.Gates doesn't appear to be a head case and just goes out and does his job, exceptionally, year-in and year-out. I believe he will continue to do that, barring injury.Davis, on the other hand, has not proved to me that he is a team player. He appears and acts selfish and I just don't envision him maintaining the elite status that he managed to achieve this year. I'd like to see him do it again and prove me wrong, but I just don't think that will happen. I actually can see him imploding next year.
just my 
Lott's Fingertip
Footballguy
I agree with these points, and I would choose Davis over Gates right now in a dynasty league by a slim margin. I think Gates has lost a little mobility and explosiveness, and I have a pretty good risk tolerance. HOWEVER, Gates has a better football IQ in exploiting defenses, runs better routes, has significantly better hands, and has a significantly better QB than Davis.. There is a perfectly reasonable argument to be made for taking Gates ahead of Davis.
Confidence is a good thing, but when you're just talking out of your ### it makes you come of as a clueless #####.
Hipple Long Ware & Peete
Footballguy
Not too mention the uncertainty of qb play in this. The past is littered with TE's who had one good year. I'll take Gates in the SD offense vs David in the SF offense. Not really that close. Also V davis put up monster numbers in large part due to how ####ty their WRs were. You have to think that they draft/sign someone to pick up some of that slack, no?
Hipple Long Ware & Peete
Footballguy
That LHUCKS is on the opposing side of this makes me feel stronger in my pick.
gonzobill5
Footballguy
Yes, we all know what VD did at the combine.
