Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
I have 5 chapters left in Crows. Should I avoid this thread until I finish Dragons? Can I ask questions or make comments here or will it just be a big :honda: fest for you all?
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George R.R. Martin - "A Dance With Dragons" (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter kupcho1
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Gr00vus
Footballguy
Probably - definitely don't read the spoilers.'Leeroy Jenkins said:
It's always nice to revisit stuff. Plenty of folks here more steeped in the series than I seem to enjoy discussing it and giving answers. Plus, it's not like there's another book coming out any time soon, so it's a good little mini-fix to discuss it here every now and then - at least for me.
Charlie Frown
Footballguy
I thought Jon was Ned's ******* sun? What did I miss in my reading? I'm confused.
Fiddles
Footballguy
I'd think so.it is called a song of ice and fire
Abrantes
Footballguy
I thought Jon was Ned's ******* sun? What did I miss in my reading? I'm confused.
The prevailing theory among readers is that Jon is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. This is mostly based on hints of a promise Ned made to Lyanna, Ned's old dream of a duel with the remaining members of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, timeline calculations and the lack of concrete details about Jon's mother up to this point. Martin could still throw readers for a loop, but it's taken as an extremely likely outcome.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Started this last night finally!
I accidentally read a spoiler or 2, but still am looking forward to the book. Was it worth the wait?
I accidentally read a spoiler or 2, but still am looking forward to the book. Was it worth the wait?
JerseyToughGuys
Tough Guy
how many spoilers are not tagged in here? I've stayed away, but I am curious and want to read others thoughts.
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
Depends on your expectations. Some are pissed because the story didn't go where they wanted it to. Some because they feel it didn't go much of anywhere at all. Some because of the cliffhangers and having no idea when we'll see the next book. Some because the scope seems to have widened even more in this book and they wonder how Martin's gonna bring it all together for a satisfactory ending.Others either didn't share these criticisms or they didn't bother them enough to take away from their enjoyment (I fall into this camp). The writing itself is very good (aside from a few phrases repeated over & over again) and there are certainly some unexpected twists.
TeamDingo
Footballguy
From the HBO thread,
Coldhands-
Coldhands-
One thing I was super disapointed in is that his identity is STILL a mystery after ADwD.
Curious who people think Coldhands is? Most often cited I believe is Benjen Stark. I have never thought this and personally think that Dance hurts this theory. My personal choice has always been Waymar Royce the lordling ranger from AGoT prologue. I think Dance does not help my case either though so I have started to belive that Coldhands is the Night King who may or may not be Bran (The Builder) Stark.
Thoughts/nominees?
Curious who people think Coldhands is? Most often cited I believe is Benjen Stark. I have never thought this and personally think that Dance hurts this theory. My personal choice has always been Waymar Royce the lordling ranger from AGoT prologue. I think Dance does not help my case either though so I have started to belive that Coldhands is the Night King who may or may not be Bran (The Builder) Stark.
Thoughts/nominees?
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Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
Not sure. I know I got blasted early on for not spoilering some very vague & generic thoughts on the book overall, and removed the post. Without going through the entire thread, I'd probably stay away until I was done.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
I always just assumed it'd turn out to be Benjen, even though it seems too obvious to be true. I like your Brandon the Builder idea (I can't recall if Martin already described how he ended up though - is he not in the Stark crypt under Winterfell?). I just hope Martin gives some kind of plausible explanation for all the reanimiation that goes on in this world and if/how the "bad" zombies relate to the "good" zombies. I'm finding the undead/skinchanger themes a bit hokey up to now.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Based on Crows, I didn't expect him to start bringing things together just yet being that the books occur concurrently for the most part, so I won't be too pissed with that. I just look forward to hearing from Tyrion and Jon again. My guess is that there will be 3 rather than 2 more books. However, at this point I would also expect GRRM to be ready to wind this thing down to its conclusion and therefore bang this out within 2 years rather than 6. He has some chapter written for Winds of Winter, doesn't he?
TeamDingo
Footballguy
I always just assumed it'd turn out to be Benjen, even though it seems too obvious to be true. I like your Brandon the Builder idea (I can't recall if Martin already described how he ended up though - is he not in the Stark crypt under Winterfell?). I just hope Martin gives some kind of plausible explanation for all the reanimiation that goes on in this world and if/how the "bad" zombies relate to the "good" zombies. I'm finding the undead/skinchanger themes a bit hokey up to now.
It is not said that Bran the Builder is or is not in the crypts.
The Night's King , the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch who took a female Other as his Consort/Queen was supposedly aBran Stark though not necessarily Bran the Builder. I think that the Night's King may well be Coldhands based on his his comments in ADwD.
I think Benjen has a different role toplay.
The Night's King , the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch who took a female Other as his Consort/Queen was supposedly aBran Stark though not necessarily Bran the Builder. I think that the Night's King may well be Coldhands based on his his comments in ADwD.
I think Benjen has a different role toplay.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Well, I hope you're right as that'd be more interesting. Not sure how I feel about the necrophilia part of it though. 
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
There were a few chapters ready for Dance that got moved because of the size of that book, so he's got a head start. He also has posted a chapter on his web site that doesn't read like one of those moved chapters so he either already had that earmarked for Winds beforehand or just wrote it. He has done a reading on yet another Winds chapter that I've only read cliffnotes of and that one also doesn't seem like a moved chapter. So I'm guessing he's got at least a half dozen or so in the bank. Dance had what? 80 chapters? I wouldn't bet much that Winds will be out in 2 years but I also think he's resolved some of the structural problems he himself caused as far back as Storm Of Swords so hopefully things will pick up.
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
I always just assumed it'd turn out to be Benjen, even though it seems too obvious to be true. I like your Brandon the Builder idea (I can't recall if Martin already described how he ended up though - is he not in the Stark crypt under Winterfell?). I just hope Martin gives some kind of plausible explanation for all the reanimiation that goes on in this world and if/how the "bad" zombies relate to the "good" zombies. I'm finding the undead/skinchanger themes a bit hokey up to now.
It is not said that Bran the Builder is or is not in the crypts.
The Night's King , the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch who took a female Other as his Consort/Queen was supposedly aBran Stark though not necessarily Bran the Builder. I think that the Night's King may well be Coldhands based on his his comments in ADwD.
I think Benjen has a different role toplay.
The Night's King , the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch who took a female Other as his Consort/Queen was supposedly aBran Stark though not necessarily Bran the Builder. I think that the Night's King may well be Coldhands based on his his comments in ADwD.
I think Benjen has a different role toplay.
I for some reason am under the impression that Coldhands was going to die when we last saw him
TeamDingo
Footballguy
It is not said that Bran the Builder is or is not in the crypts.
The Night's King , the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch who took a female Other as his Consort/Queen was supposedly aBran Stark though not necessarily Bran the Builder. I think that the Night's King may well be Coldhands based on his his comments in ADwD.
I think Benjen has a different role toplay.
The Night's King , the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch who took a female Other as his Consort/Queen was supposedly aBran Stark though not necessarily Bran the Builder. I think that the Night's King may well be Coldhands based on his his comments in ADwD.
I think Benjen has a different role toplay.
I for some reason am under the impression that Coldhands was going to die when we last saw him
Yes and no, he is already dead so...
Bran and the child of the forest discuss and say
“They’ll kill him.” “No. They killed him long ago."
Considering how long lived children of the forest are this strongly implies to me that Coldhands has been dead for much longer than the span of the current books. Eliminating Benjen and Waymar.
Related - How many people have read the Dunk & Egg stuff? And if you have not do you have any clue who the Three Eyed Crow/Lord Brynden is?
Bran and the child of the forest discuss and say
“They’ll kill him.” “No. They killed him long ago."
Considering how long lived children of the forest are this strongly implies to me that Coldhands has been dead for much longer than the span of the current books. Eliminating Benjen and Waymar.
Related - How many people have read the Dunk & Egg stuff? And if you have not do you have any clue who the Three Eyed Crow/Lord Brynden is?
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
It is not said that Bran the Builder is or is not in the crypts.
The Night's King , the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch who took a female Other as his Consort/Queen was supposedly aBran Stark though not necessarily Bran the Builder. I think that the Night's King may well be Coldhands based on his his comments in ADwD.
I think Benjen has a different role toplay.
The Night's King , the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch who took a female Other as his Consort/Queen was supposedly aBran Stark though not necessarily Bran the Builder. I think that the Night's King may well be Coldhands based on his his comments in ADwD.
I think Benjen has a different role toplay.
I for some reason am under the impression that Coldhands was going to die when we last saw him
Yes and no, he is already dead so...
Bran and the child of the forest discuss and say
“They’ll kill him.” “No. They killed him long ago."
Considering how long lived children of the forest are this strongly implies to me that Coldhands has been dead for much longer than the span of the current books. Eliminating Benjen and Waymar.
Related - How many people have read the Dunk & Egg stuff? And if you have not do you have any clue who the Three Eyed Crow/Lord Brynden is?
Bran and the child of the forest discuss and say
“They’ll kill him.” “No. They killed him long ago."
Considering how long lived children of the forest are this strongly implies to me that Coldhands has been dead for much longer than the span of the current books. Eliminating Benjen and Waymar.
Related - How many people have read the Dunk & Egg stuff? And if you have not do you have any clue who the Three Eyed Crow/Lord Brynden is?
I guess I meant he was going to "re-die". Dunno - have to reread that chapter.
To your other question - yes I've read them. Bloodraven.
To your other question - yes I've read them. Bloodraven.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
So I am about 300 pages in thus far. I have to say I am already enjoying this much more than Crows. Not that I hated Crows, although I can see why after a 5 year layoff and waiting another 6 years for Dragons people would have been super pissed about it. These points of view are just more compelling.
Some questions, observations, and complaints:
Some questions, observations, and complaints:
So now little Prince Aegon was not murdered by the Mountain (or was it that other Knight?). I can see where he might be going with this based on Tyrion's last chapter, but is it even necessary? It's almost making the whole story too big and takes away from other characters. Why can't dead people just stay dead? This boy's murder meant something. Catlyn Stark was murdered. That meant something. Bringing her back annoys me. Wights are different. They are part of the mythology. Ambiguous deaths such as Theon and Brienne are also OK. The reader is left to think they are dead, but do not know for sure. But when you tell me somebody is dead, they should stay damn dead (but for the White Walker/Wights)
Varys seems to have known quite a bit. I'm a bit confused, however, with which plans were his. All of them? He switched out Aegon to protect him. Did he also get Viserys and Dany to Essos as well? Was he involved in the betrothal of Princess Arrianne and Viserys (and later Quentyn and Dany) or was his plan for Dany and Aegon to marry as was their tradition?
And it all seems that the War of the 5 Kings was necessary for these plans to work, as chaos in Westeros apparently is a huge factor in when the invasion should occur. Varys seemed to not want Ned Stark killed. He wanted him to go to the Wall. Did Varys then play a role in Robert's death? His death was necessary for Varys plan to disclose that Joffry etc were not Robert's children. But why then did he not just disclose that? Because Dany and Aegon weren't ready?
Varys seems to have known quite a bit. I'm a bit confused, however, with which plans were his. All of them? He switched out Aegon to protect him. Did he also get Viserys and Dany to Essos as well? Was he involved in the betrothal of Princess Arrianne and Viserys (and later Quentyn and Dany) or was his plan for Dany and Aegon to marry as was their tradition?
And it all seems that the War of the 5 Kings was necessary for these plans to work, as chaos in Westeros apparently is a huge factor in when the invasion should occur. Varys seemed to not want Ned Stark killed. He wanted him to go to the Wall. Did Varys then play a role in Robert's death? His death was necessary for Varys plan to disclose that Joffry etc were not Robert's children. But why then did he not just disclose that? Because Dany and Aegon weren't ready?
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
To your first question, you're right. And Varys was involved with Dany/Viserys getting out of Westeros through his relationship with Illyrios. As for the rest, I don't think we've been given enough evidence to say for sure yet.
TeamDingo
Footballguy
Ser Amory Lorch killed the son. Ser Gregor the mother and daughter.Varys/Illyrio did help Viserys/Dany in Pentos but I do not think they aided them in their flight to Bravos and their first years in exile.You shouldn't trust everything presented as fact. See ACoK House of the Undying...I believe Quentyn/Dany is all Doran.I do not believe that Varys directly played a role in Robert's death.
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Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Ser Amory Lorch killed the son. Ser Gregor the mother and daughter.Varys/Illyrio did help Viserys/Dany in Pentos but I do not think they aided them in their flight to Bravos and their first years in exile.You shouldn't trust everything presented as fact. See ACoK House of the Undying...I believe Quentyn/Dany is all Doran.I do not believe that Varys directly played a role in Robert's death.
TeamDingo
Footballguy
A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies
"A mummer’s dragon, you said. What is a mummer’s dragon, pray?” “A cloth dragon on poles,” Dany explained. “Mummers use them in their follies, to give the heroes something to fight.”
One of the lies that Dany must slay is the mummer's (Varys') dragon (Aegon)
More? You are better off just reading your first time and on reread much and more will be clear(er)
"A mummer’s dragon, you said. What is a mummer’s dragon, pray?” “A cloth dragon on poles,” Dany explained. “Mummers use them in their follies, to give the heroes something to fight.”
One of the lies that Dany must slay is the mummer's (Varys') dragon (Aegon)
More? You are better off just reading your first time and on reread much and more will be clear(er)
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
I see.
She basically told her everybody who might be coming is someone who shouldn't be trusted.
Things look bad for Jon at the wall. I'm only 400 pages in or so, but it seems that like Dany, he isn't loving being a ruler.
So Dany and Tyrion's mothers died giving birth to them, right? Perhaps we are also going to find out that Lyanna Stark died giving birth to Jon Snow at some point? And those 3 are the riders of the dragons to save the realm?
Things look bad for Jon at the wall. I'm only 400 pages in or so, but it seems that like Dany, he isn't loving being a ruler.
So Dany and Tyrion's mothers died giving birth to them, right? Perhaps we are also going to find out that Lyanna Stark died giving birth to Jon Snow at some point? And those 3 are the riders of the dragons to save the realm?
The Gator
Footballguy
This isn't a given from GoT?
This isn't a given from GoT?
Currently reading the dunk and egg short stories. They are pretty good. I would recommend them.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
I see.
She basically told her everybody who might be coming is someone who shouldn't be trusted.
Things look bad for Jon at the wall. I'm only 400 pages in or so, but it seems that like Dany, he isn't loving being a ruler.
So Dany and Tyrion's mothers died giving birth to them, right? Perhaps we are also going to find out that Lyanna Stark died giving birth to Jon Snow at some point? And those 3 are the riders of the dragons to save the realm?
Things look bad for Jon at the wall. I'm only 400 pages in or so, but it seems that like Dany, he isn't loving being a ruler.
So Dany and Tyrion's mothers died giving birth to them, right? Perhaps we are also going to find out that Lyanna Stark died giving birth to Jon Snow at some point? And those 3 are the riders of the dragons to save the realm?
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
I see. She basically told her everybody who might be coming is someone who shouldn't be trusted.
Things look bad for Jon at the wall. I'm only 400 pages in or so, but it seems that like Dany, he isn't loving being a ruler.
So Dany and Tyrion's mothers died giving birth to them, right? Perhaps we are also going to find out that Lyanna Stark died giving birth to Jon Snow at some point? And those 3 are the riders of the dragons to save the realm?
Things look bad for Jon at the wall. I'm only 400 pages in or so, but it seems that like Dany, he isn't loving being a ruler.
So Dany and Tyrion's mothers died giving birth to them, right? Perhaps we are also going to find out that Lyanna Stark died giving birth to Jon Snow at some point? And those 3 are the riders of the dragons to save the realm?
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Are you ####### kidding me?!?
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
Didja finish?
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JerseyToughGuys
Tough Guy
Lots of debate as to just what happened at the end there. Deep breath.
Abrantes
Footballguy
If you mean what I think, there's no way he's staying dead. Would get in the way of the whole Azor Ahai thing and all.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Not the whole book just yet.Didja finish?
I just finished the Jon Snow chapter where the STAB HIM IN THE BACK! (and stomach and throat!) I had accidentally read a spoiler than Jon kind of got it, but I thought it was more left open for interpretation like Theon and Brienne. When I read it this morning my thoughts were that GRRM made it clear that he was dead. Now that I think about it some, I am hoping that if he is dead Melissandre brings him back with the kiss of fire (or whatever Loros used to do for the Lightning Lord). Maybe his new wildling allies step in before the true deathblow comes? Again, I think the Red Priestess has to play a role in healing him or bringing him back to life. Or perhaps he wargs into Ghost? Warging will piss me off though. Ruined my day
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
Based on what I just wrote and the fact that I sill have 50 pages or so left, can I open these spoilers or should I wait?Not the whole book just yet.Didja finish?I just finished the Jon Snow chapter where the STAB HIM IN THE BACK! (and stomach and throat!) I had accidentally read a spoiler than Jon kind of got it, but I thought it was more left open for interpretation like Theon and Brienne. When I read it this morning my thoughts were that GRRM made it clear that he was dead. Now that I think about it some, I am hoping that if he is dead Melissandre brings him back with the kiss of fire (or whatever Loros used to do for the Lightning Lord). Maybe his new wildling allies step in before the true deathblow comes? Again, I think the Red Priestess has to play a role in healing him or bringing him back to life. Or perhaps he wargs into Ghost? Warging will piss me off though. Ruined my day
I would wait. Can't remember which chapters follow that one but the epilogue has a surprise or two.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Kind of took the wind out of my sails for season 2. 
I like how GRRM makes things "real" in a sense, but come on!
I like how GRRM makes things "real" in a sense, but come on!
Gr00vus
Footballguy
So who makes the worst decisions in this story? So many candidates, my opinion on that changes from chapter to chapter. I think I have it down to:
Theon, Cersei, Catelyn
I'd probably go with Catelyn, though she sort of falls out of the picture half way through. Theon seems to deliver the poor decisions on a much more consistent basis.
Either Robb or Eddard probably make the singular worst decision.
I can't tell if Dany is a #### up or just riding her destiny yet.
I think this is probably a big reason why Arya is my favorite character - though she seemingly gets swept along with events regardless of her will, she seems to be making more good decisions than anyone when she gets the chance. I'm really looking forward to seeing how she plays into the finale, as she's not really one of the "big 3" (Tyrion, Dany, Jon) or 4 (if you include Bran who seems destined for some big mystical type things) and hasn't had as much explicit foreshadowing in terms of her potential role (the main exception being when that hag freaks out in her presence). I hope she comes back to Westeros and kicks the #### out of everyone Nymeria style.
I'd probably go with Catelyn, though she sort of falls out of the picture half way through. Theon seems to deliver the poor decisions on a much more consistent basis.
Either Robb or Eddard probably make the singular worst decision.
I can't tell if Dany is a #### up or just riding her destiny yet.
I think this is probably a big reason why Arya is my favorite character - though she seemingly gets swept along with events regardless of her will, she seems to be making more good decisions than anyone when she gets the chance. I'm really looking forward to seeing how she plays into the finale, as she's not really one of the "big 3" (Tyrion, Dany, Jon) or 4 (if you include Bran who seems destined for some big mystical type things) and hasn't had as much explicit foreshadowing in terms of her potential role (the main exception being when that hag freaks out in her presence). I hope she comes back to Westeros and kicks the #### out of everyone Nymeria style.
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Sabertooth
Footballguy
Sansa's decision not to push Joff off the ledge was a pretty poor decision. She was THIS CLOSE.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Sansa's decision not to push Joff off the ledge was a pretty poor decision. She was THIS CLOSE.Meh. That was her perception. I doubt the Hound would have let her do jack.
Besides, she helps take care of business later anyway. Her #### up was running to Cersei with Ned's plans. Which is really just a follow on from Ned's #### up of telling her, and not having the right plan to begin with.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
Sansa's decision not to push Joff off the ledge was a pretty poor decision. She was THIS CLOSE.
Besides, she helps take care of business later anyway. Her #### up was running to Cersei with Ned's plans. Which is really just a follow on from Ned's #### up of telling her, and not having the right plan to begin with.
Ned telling Cersei that he knows and is going to spill the beans is more overtly stupid than Cat nabbing Tyrion. She could've been smarter about it, but there was stuff she didn't know about that was going on. Ned, my ninja Ned, knew Cersei was a coldblooded, calculating freak with the most ambitious and powerful house filled with shady characters vying for control. She killed one Hand, but he tipped his hand to her and expected her to run? The Starks, by and large, are pretty ####### stupid or naive or too isolated in the North to know better.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
I wouldn't get too upset. I'm rereading now, one passage that stands out that I didn't pay much attention to the first time through was the vision of the dancing spirits Dany had while Miri Mazz Dur was performing her black magic ritual with Drogo and his sacrificed horse. While watching from the outside Dany saw a huge wolf and a man surrounded by flames as shadows inside the tent - I wonder who that might symbolize?Kind of took the wind out of my sails for season 2.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Meh. That was her perception. I doubt the Hound would have let her do jack.Besides, she helps take care of business later anyway. Her #### up was running to Cersei with Ned's plans. Which is really just a follow on from Ned's #### up of telling her, and not having the right plan to begin with.
Ned telling Cersei that he knows and is going to spill the beans is more overtly stupid than Cat nabbing Tyrion. She could've been smarter about it, but there was stuff she didn't know about that was going on. Ned, my ninja Ned, knew Cersei was a coldblooded, calculating freak with the most ambitious and powerful house filled with shady characters vying for control. She killed one Hand, but he tipped his hand to her and expected her to run? The Starks, by and large, are pretty ####### stupid or naive or too isolated in the North to know better.
That's why I'm torn between his
and Robb's
He had friggin Greyjoy hostage for 10 years already! Plus, that chick and her brother are the direct reason your kid's now a cripple. Bad idea jeans.
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TexanFan02
Footballguy
I've played it. Everybody stabs each other in the back and screws each other over. I told them it was just like the books.'Matthias said:I just ordered the board game.
PrinceofDarkness
Footballguy
A comment/rebuttal on the Jon Snow speculation and a question about the Prologue to AFfC:
I'm not so sure about Jon Snow being Raegar and Lyanna's spawn. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Wyman Manderly tell Davos Seaworth that Ned Stark had brought the woman pregnant with his ******* through White Harbor during Robert's Rebellion?
Also, in the Prologue of A Feast for Crows, Pate stole a key to Old Town and sold it to a stranger. Any speculation on who this stranger was and how it fits into the rest of the story?
Also, in the Prologue of A Feast for Crows, Pate stole a key to Old Town and sold it to a stranger. Any speculation on who this stranger was and how it fits into the rest of the story?
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TeamDingo
Footballguy
That was Lord LiddleBorrell not Wayman Manderly. The timing is alll wrong for it to be true. The tale is apocryphal, just like Wyla and to an extent Ashara.
That was the Faceless Man that was Jaquen Hagar. My theory is that he is stealing the book Blood & Fire and the FM have been contracted to either kill Dany and/or her dragons
That was the Faceless Man that was Jaquen Hagar. My theory is that he is stealing the book Blood & Fire and the FM have been contracted to either kill Dany and/or her dragons
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Sabertooth
Footballguy
?
Who is Aegon/Young Griff
I think he's an imposter of some sort.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Now I have to figure out how to read the last 3 chapters on Valentine's day .
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