George R.R. Martin - "A Dance With Dragons" (1 Viewer)

[TexanFan02]

For Mad Sweeney & Uruk-Hai from the HBO thread and crackpot theory

Spoiler

The Tyrion is a Targ idea gets some serious traction in ADwD

Spoiler

Yep. Seems probable now, doesn't it?

Whoever started this thread should just edit the description to say spoilers abound and let you guys talk in the clear, imo.

 

[kupcho1]

For Mad Sweeney & Uruk-Hai from the HBO thread and crackpot theory

Spoiler

The Tyrion is a Targ idea gets some serious traction in ADwD

Spoiler

Yep. Seems probable now, doesn't it?

Whoever started this thread should just edit the description to say spoilers abound and let you guys talk in the clear, imo.I'm only about 500 pages in, so no, not yet.

 

[Vrana]

Waited until the summer semester to start this one, so I just downloaded it on my Kindle on friday. I haven't had a ton of time to read, so I can't wait to really dig in.

 

[ScottyFargo]

I enjoyed it, but about as much as I liked AFFC. The editing was very sloppy (he rehashes sentences a lot to create themes but I've seen people find such instances that were not done for effect, that should have been caught by an editor) and I don't feel like we're much further a long than we were at the end of SOS, to be honest. I hope this novel was his opportunity to get past a difficult spot he wrote himself into (Meereen) and he is able to move past it to give us some really good stuff to finish off the series.

 

[Sabertooth]

Can somebody recap Jorah Mormont's betrayal? I don't have much recollection of it.

 

[ScottyFargo]

Can somebody recap Jorah Mormont's betrayal? I don't have much recollection of it.

He was spying for Varys, confessed it to Daeny bc he <3 her, and she gave him his walking papers.

 

[Rustoleum]

Just finished this on the last day of our beach vacation. Gonna be a long, angry 12 hour drive home......

Not a fan of any of the Daenarys chapters, and if not for Arya, kinda want that whole continent to go away. Ugh.

Hope we are truly all "synced" up with the timelines now.

 

[kupcho1]

Spoiler

Crackpot theory: I think the Ramsay letter was an inside job. I don't think it came from Bolton, I think it was a plant by the members of the Nights Watch that didn't like the direction Jon was heading. Clydas was shaking when he delivered the letter, but it was sealed with a smear of pink wax. I can't recall if Clydas could read (I expect he can), but even so, why would the fact that it was addressed to "*******" cause Mully to say that "Clydas don't look his proper self" - he should have had no idea what the contents of the letter were, so why so shaken?

Everything in the letter - false king, magic sword, red whore, Mance Rayder = Abel, 6 whores - would have been more likely known by those at the wall than Bolton or anyone at Winterfell.

Inside job. Book it.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Spoiler

Crackpot theory: I think the Ramsay letter was an inside job. I don't think it came from Bolton, I think it was a plant by the members of the Nights Watch that didn't like the direction Jon was heading. Clydas was shaking when he delivered the letter, but it was sealed with a smear of pink wax. I can't recall if Clydas could read (I expect he can), but even so, why would the fact that it was addressed to "*******" cause Mully to say that "Clydas don't look his proper self" - he should have had no idea what the contents of the letter were, so why so shaken?Everything in the letter - false king, magic sword, red whore, Mance Rayder = Abel, 6 whores - would have been more likely known by those at the wall than Bolton or anyone at Winterfell. Inside job. Book it.

I'm not so sure that's crackpot. I was in the camp of

Spoiler

That Ramsey had sent it, but that most of it was lies

but I might be leaning your way a tad.....

 

[Abrantes]

Spoiler

Crackpot theory: I think the Ramsay letter was an inside job. I don't think it came from Bolton, I think it was a plant by the members of the Nights Watch that didn't like the direction Jon was heading. Clydas was shaking when he delivered the letter, but it was sealed with a smear of pink wax. I can't recall if Clydas could read (I expect he can), but even so, why would the fact that it was addressed to "*******" cause Mully to say that "Clydas don't look his proper self" - he should have had no idea what the contents of the letter were, so why so shaken?Everything in the letter - false king, magic sword, red whore, Mance Rayder = Abel, 6 whores - would have been more likely known by those at the wall than Bolton or anyone at Winterfell. Inside job. Book it.

I'm not so sure that's crackpot. I was in the camp of

Spoiler

That Ramsey had sent it, but that most of it was lies

but I might be leaning your way a tad.....

Interesting, but I'm not buying it.

Spoiler

Don't have the book at hand, but I'm pretty sure Clydas wouldn't have known about Mance. He was likely shaken by the sight of the Boltons' pink wax, not the "*******" tag. The contents of the letter would be more likely known to someone who captured and tortured Mance or one of the spearwives, not random conspirators at the Wall.

 

[kupcho1]

Spoiler

Crackpot theory: I think the Ramsay letter was an inside job. I don't think it came from Bolton, I think it was a plant by the members of the Nights Watch that didn't like the direction Jon was heading. Clydas was shaking when he delivered the letter, but it was sealed with a smear of pink wax. I can't recall if Clydas could read (I expect he can), but even so, why would the fact that it was addressed to "*******" cause Mully to say that "Clydas don't look his proper self" - he should have had no idea what the contents of the letter were, so why so shaken?Everything in the letter - false king, magic sword, red whore, Mance Rayder = Abel, 6 whores - would have been more likely known by those at the wall than Bolton or anyone at Winterfell. Inside job. Book it.

Spoiler

I'm not so sure that's crackpot. I was in the camp ofThat Ramsey had sent it, but that most of it was lies

but I might be leaning your way a tad.....

Interesting, but I'm not buying it.

Spoiler

Don't have the book at hand, but I'm pretty sure Clydas wouldn't have known about Mance. He was likely shaken by the sight of the Boltons' pink wax, not the "*******" tag. The contents of the letter would be more likely known to someone who captured and tortured Mance or one of the spearwives, not random conspirators at the Wall.

Spoiler

Really? A man of the Night's Watch shaken by a blob of pink wax on an envelop with ******* written on it? A term a lot of the NW used for Jon anyway. And Clydas didn't have to know any of the details, save that he was forced to deliver the letter purportedly received from Winterfell. (Actually there is a hole in general in my theory, I'm not sure anyone but Mance, Jon and Melissandre knew Mance went south for "Arya".)

 

[ScottyFargo]

I like the theory you guys are talking about. Subtle.

 

[Sabertooth]

When talking with Jon, Mellisandre says -

Spoiler

A dead man's boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. Obviously Davos is the fingerbones reference. But who is the dead man's boots and the hank of hair?

 

[scoobygang]

Spoiler

Crackpot theory: I think the Ramsay letter was an inside job. I don't think it came from Bolton, I think it was a plant by the members of the Nights Watch that didn't like the direction Jon was heading. Clydas was shaking when he delivered the letter, but it was sealed with a smear of pink wax. I can't recall if Clydas could read (I expect he can), but even so, why would the fact that it was addressed to "*******" cause Mully to say that "Clydas don't look his proper self" - he should have had no idea what the contents of the letter were, so why so shaken?Everything in the letter - false king, magic sword, red whore, Mance Rayder = Abel, 6 whores - would have been more likely known by those at the wall than Bolton or anyone at Winterfell. Inside job. Book it.

Spoiler

I'm not so sure that's crackpot. I was in the camp ofThat Ramsey had sent it, but that most of it was lies

but I might be leaning your way a tad.....

Interesting, but I'm not buying it.

Spoiler

Don't have the book at hand, but I'm pretty sure Clydas wouldn't have known about Mance. He was likely shaken by the sight of the Boltons' pink wax, not the "*******" tag. The contents of the letter would be more likely known to someone who captured and tortured Mance or one of the spearwives, not random conspirators at the Wall.

Spoiler

Really? A man of the Night's Watch shaken by a blob of pink wax on an envelop with ******* written on it? A term a lot of the NW used for Jon anyway. And Clydas didn't have to know any of the details, save that he was forced to deliver the letter purportedly received from Winterfell. (Actually there is a hole in general in my theory, I'm not sure anyone but Mance, Jon and Melissandre knew Mance went south for "Arya".)

Spoiler

Then and Asha would know all those things. And Theon might suspect it would take something extraordinary to make Jon bring a force against Bolton. And they needed help...

 

[Fiddles]

Having a hard time getting through this new book. Same as book 4. The one pov I'm most interested in is the most sparse (bran). I like the john chapters but tyrion and danaerys arcs are very slow.

 

[Sabertooth]

Having a hard time getting through this new book. Same as book 4. The one pov I'm most interested in is the most sparse (bran). I like the john chapters but tyrion and danaerys arcs are very slow.

I agree. The Reek chapters are good. He's a mess.

 

[TeamDingo]

Spoiler

Crackpot theory: I think the Ramsay letter was an inside job. I don't think it came from Bolton, I think it was a plant by the members of the Nights Watch that didn't like the direction Jon was heading. Clydas was shaking when he delivered the letter, but it was sealed with a smear of pink wax. I can't recall if Clydas could read (I expect he can), but even so, why would the fact that it was addressed to "*******" cause Mully to say that "Clydas don't look his proper self" - he should have had no idea what the contents of the letter were, so why so shaken?Everything in the letter - false king, magic sword, red whore, Mance Rayder = Abel, 6 whores - would have been more likely known by those at the wall than Bolton or anyone at Winterfell. Inside job. Book it.

Spoiler

I think the letter is 75% lies but I am sure Ramsay sent it. The fact that it was not from Roose and that it asks for Stannis family is tellling I think. If there was a battle, Stannis won and probably has Roose. Theon arrives in time to alert Stannis of the Karstark betrayal and set a trap of his own. The old gods sent the snow to delay Stannis at the lakes so he would not be trapped. No one in the NW knew about Mance being alive this could only come from Winterfell.

 

[Drunken Cowboy]

When talking with Jon, Mellisandre says -

Spoiler

A dead man's boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. Obviously Davos is the fingerbones reference. But who is the dead man's boots and the hank of hair?

The only reference to a dead man's boots I can remember is the singer from the night watch that Aria kills.

 

[Rustoleum]

When talking with Jon, Mellisandre says -

Spoiler

A dead man's boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. Obviously Davos is the fingerbones reference. But who is the dead man's boots and the hank of hair?

Spoiler

Memory is a little fuzzy, but isn't one of these related to Renly's death?

 

[thecatch]

Just finished the book and loved it, even the Dany chapters.

Spoiler

I couldn't muster up the outrage over the Jon Snow stabbing that others did. He's such a pivotal character that I can't seriously see him going out like that. I have little doubt he'll overcome long odds to survive his stab wounds, or the red priestess will conjure up something to save him.

One thing I didn't like is that the entire book took lengthy pains to build up to certain events (for example, the upcoming battle of Meereen) and there was no payoff. I'm fine with ending a book on a suspenseful note but that was a little ridiculous.

 

[Drunken Cowboy]

Just finished the book and loved it, even the Dany chapters.

Spoiler

I couldn't muster up the outrage over the Jon Snow stabbing that others did. He's such a pivotal character that I can't seriously see him going out like that. I have little doubt he'll overcome long odds to survive his stab wounds, or the red priestess will conjure up something to save him.One thing I didn't like is that the entire book took lengthy pains to build up to certain events (for example, the upcoming battle of Meereen) and there was no payoff. I'm fine with ending a book on a suspenseful note but that was a little ridiculous.

Spoiler

The red priest can bring back people from the dead, why wouldn't she be able to?

 

[thecatch]

Just finished the book and loved it, even the Dany chapters.

Spoiler

I couldn't muster up the outrage over the Jon Snow stabbing that others did. He's such a pivotal character that I can't seriously see him going out like that. I have little doubt he'll overcome long odds to survive his stab wounds, or the red priestess will conjure up something to save him.One thing I didn't like is that the entire book took lengthy pains to build up to certain events (for example, the upcoming battle of Meereen) and there was no payoff. I'm fine with ending a book on a suspenseful note but that was a little ridiculous.

Spoiler

The red priest can bring back people from the dead, why wouldn't she be able to?

Spoiler

Did I suggest she couldn't? I'm just saying I don't think there's any chance we've seen the last of Jon.

 

[Sabertooth]

I'm about halfway through the book. Moving slowly but I just have to say that

Spoiler

I hope the ******* Bolton meets a very bitter end at some point. He must be based on someone like Mengele or something. Just a sick individual. I hope Theon kills him. He could still redeem himself ala Jaime Lannister.

 

[parrot]

Spoiler

Crackpot theory: I think the Ramsay letter was an inside job. I don't think it came from Bolton, I think it was a plant by the members of the Nights Watch that didn't like the direction Jon was heading. Clydas was shaking when he delivered the letter, but it was sealed with a smear of pink wax. I can't recall if Clydas could read (I expect he can), but even so, why would the fact that it was addressed to "*******" cause Mully to say that "Clydas don't look his proper self" - he should have had no idea what the contents of the letter were, so why so shaken?Everything in the letter - false king, magic sword, red whore, Mance Rayder = Abel, 6 whores - would have been more likely known by those at the wall than Bolton or anyone at Winterfell. Inside job. Book it.

Spoiler

I'm not so sure that's crackpot. I was in the camp ofThat Ramsey had sent it, but that most of it was lies

but I might be leaning your way a tad.....

Interesting, but I'm not buying it.

Spoiler

Don't have the book at hand, but I'm pretty sure Clydas wouldn't have known about Mance. He was likely shaken by the sight of the Boltons' pink wax, not the "*******" tag. The contents of the letter would be more likely known to someone who captured and tortured Mance or one of the spearwives, not random conspirators at the Wall.

Spoiler

Really? A man of the Night's Watch shaken by a blob of pink wax on an envelop with ******* written on it? A term a lot of the NW used for Jon anyway. And Clydas didn't have to know any of the details, save that he was forced to deliver the letter purportedly received from Winterfell. (Actually there is a hole in general in my theory, I'm not sure anyone but Mance, Jon and Melissandre knew Mance went south for "Arya".)

Spoiler

Stannis has ridden out to meet Bolton in battle. Bolton is the Warden of the North under King Tommen. In an earlier chapter Bowen Marsh warns Jon that Stannis is still viewed as a rebel in King's Landing and if he is defeated things could go badly for the Watch, as there is at least some appearance that they have been supporting and/or acting in league with him. A letter from Bolton would indicate that things might have gone badly for Stannis. That would be enough to make members of the Watch nervous.

 

[ScottNorwood]

Spoiler

A few things bothered me about the last Jon chapter. He had been so steadfast about keeping the Nights Watch neutral in the conflict between Stannis and Tommen/Bolton it seemed odd that the letter from Ramsay would have sent him over the edge. It didn't ring true for me. There was also a passage where Jon reaches for Longclaw but his hand turns clumsy. That sort of gave the impression that he and Davos (short fingers) had switched places - potentially glamored by Melissandre. Of course, if that were true then the part of the chapter where he misses Rob, Arya, Bran etc wouldn't really make sense. Either way the part about his hand becoming clumsy seemed strange to me, but perhaps I'm over analyzing.

I was extremely pissed off when I read that chapter, but after cooling down a bit I convinced myself that there's now way he's actually dead. I think the 'reborn' theory is the most likely.

 

[Abrantes]

Spoiler

A few things bothered me about the last Jon chapter. He had been so steadfast about keeping the Nights Watch neutral in the conflict between Stannis and Tommen/Bolton it seemed odd that the letter from Ramsay would have sent him over the edge. It didn't ring true for me. There was also a passage where Jon reaches for Longclaw but his hand turns clumsy. That sort of gave the impression that he and Davos (short fingers) had switched places - potentially glamored by Melissandre. Of course, if that were true then the part of the chapter where he misses Rob, Arya, Bran etc wouldn't really make sense. Either way the part about his hand becoming clumsy seemed strange to me, but perhaps I'm over analyzing.I was extremely pissed off when I read that chapter, but after cooling down a bit I convinced myself that there's now way he's actually dead. I think the 'reborn' theory is the most likely.

Agree on the first point.

Spoiler

Jon's final decision to ride south didn't ring true to me at all, given everything he'd already endured. Sounded more like "this will happen because the author needs it to happen".As for the Jon/Davos hand bit, you're on your own, mister.

 

[ScottNorwood]

Spoiler

A few things bothered me about the last Jon chapter. He had been so steadfast about keeping the Nights Watch neutral in the conflict between Stannis and Tommen/Bolton it seemed odd that the letter from Ramsay would have sent him over the edge. It didn't ring true for me. There was also a passage where Jon reaches for Longclaw but his hand turns clumsy. That sort of gave the impression that he and Davos (short fingers) had switched places - potentially glamored by Melissandre. Of course, if that were true then the part of the chapter where he misses Rob, Arya, Bran etc wouldn't really make sense. Either way the part about his hand becoming clumsy seemed strange to me, but perhaps I'm over analyzing.I was extremely pissed off when I read that chapter, but after cooling down a bit I convinced myself that there's now way he's actually dead. I think the 'reborn' theory is the most likely.

Agree on the first point.

Spoiler

Jon's final decision to ride south didn't ring true to me at all, given everything he'd already endured. Sounded more like "this will happen because the author needs it to happen".As for the Jon/Davos hand bit, you're on your own, mister.

I don't believe it either. It's just grasping at straws trying to explain a very strange chapter. I'm sure there's a better explanation but that's all I could think of.

 

[Buckna]

Flew out on vacation a week ago and the airport book store had a ton of copies of all the books (not surprising considering the popularity of the tv show.) Broke down and bought A Feast For Crows and finished it while on vacation. Pretty good, but I can totally see why people were so pissed it's taken him 5 some odd years to write the new one. Now we will see how long I can hold out for book 5...

 

[parrot]

Spoiler

A few things bothered me about the last Jon chapter. He had been so steadfast about keeping the Nights Watch neutral in the conflict between Stannis and Tommen/Bolton it seemed odd that the letter from Ramsay would have sent him over the edge. It didn't ring true for me. There was also a passage where Jon reaches for Longclaw but his hand turns clumsy. That sort of gave the impression that he and Davos (short fingers) had switched places - potentially glamored by Melissandre. Of course, if that were true then the part of the chapter where he misses Rob, Arya, Bran etc wouldn't really make sense. Either way the part about his hand becoming clumsy seemed strange to me, but perhaps I'm over analyzing.I was extremely pissed off when I read that chapter, but after cooling down a bit I convinced myself that there's now way he's actually dead. I think the 'reborn' theory is the most likely.

Agreed. It did seem out of character compared to his other actions to that point, and I didn't understand what was wrong with his hand.

 

[kupcho1]

Spoiler

A few things bothered me about the last Jon chapter. He had been so steadfast about keeping the Nights Watch neutral in the conflict between Stannis and Tommen/Bolton it seemed odd that the letter from Ramsay would have sent him over the edge. It didn't ring true for me. There was also a passage where Jon reaches for Longclaw but his hand turns clumsy. That sort of gave the impression that he and Davos (short fingers) had switched places - potentially glamored by Melissandre. Of course, if that were true then the part of the chapter where he misses Rob, Arya, Bran etc wouldn't really make sense. Either way the part about his hand becoming clumsy seemed strange to me, but perhaps I'm over analyzing.I was extremely pissed off when I read that chapter, but after cooling down a bit I convinced myself that there's now way he's actually dead. I think the 'reborn' theory is the most likely.

Agreed. It did seem out of character compared to his other actions to that point, and I didn't understand what was wrong with his hand.

Spoiler

Chronic masturbation post-Ygritte

 

[Drunken Cowboy]

Spoiler

A few things bothered me about the last Jon chapter. He had been so steadfast about keeping the Nights Watch neutral in the conflict between Stannis and Tommen/Bolton it seemed odd that the letter from Ramsay would have sent him over the edge. It didn't ring true for me. There was also a passage where Jon reaches for Longclaw but his hand turns clumsy. That sort of gave the impression that he and Davos (short fingers) had switched places - potentially glamored by Melissandre. Of course, if that were true then the part of the chapter where he misses Rob, Arya, Bran etc wouldn't really make sense. Either way the part about his hand becoming clumsy seemed strange to me, but perhaps I'm over analyzing.I was extremely pissed off when I read that chapter, but after cooling down a bit I convinced myself that there's now way he's actually dead. I think the 'reborn' theory is the most likely.

Agreed. It did seem out of character compared to his other actions to that point, and I didn't understand what was wrong with his hand. He had burnt his hand when the wraith first attacked.

 

[Rustoleum]

Spoiler

A few things bothered me about the last Jon chapter. He had been so steadfast about keeping the Nights Watch neutral in the conflict between Stannis and Tommen/Bolton it seemed odd that the letter from Ramsay would have sent him over the edge. It didn't ring true for me. There was also a passage where Jon reaches for Longclaw but his hand turns clumsy. That sort of gave the impression that he and Davos (short fingers) had switched places - potentially glamored by Melissandre. Of course, if that were true then the part of the chapter where he misses Rob, Arya, Bran etc wouldn't really make sense. Either way the part about his hand becoming clumsy seemed strange to me, but perhaps I'm over analyzing.I was extremely pissed off when I read that chapter, but after cooling down a bit I convinced myself that there's now way he's actually dead. I think the 'reborn' theory is the most likely.

Agreed. It did seem out of character compared to his other actions to that point, and I didn't understand what was wrong with his hand.

Spoiler

Maybe I misread. I just took his inability to grasp the sword as a sign of having already been stabbed and not yet realizing/believing it, as with Marsh's "punch" to the stomach.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Spoiler

A few things bothered me about the last Jon chapter. He had been so steadfast about keeping the Nights Watch neutral in the conflict between Stannis and Tommen/Bolton it seemed odd that the letter from Ramsay would have sent him over the edge. It didn't ring true for me. There was also a passage where Jon reaches for Longclaw but his hand turns clumsy. That sort of gave the impression that he and Davos (short fingers) had switched places - potentially glamored by Melissandre. Of course, if that were true then the part of the chapter where he misses Rob, Arya, Bran etc wouldn't really make sense. Either way the part about his hand becoming clumsy seemed strange to me, but perhaps I'm over analyzing.I was extremely pissed off when I read that chapter, but after cooling down a bit I convinced myself that there's now way he's actually dead. I think the 'reborn' theory is the most likely.

Spoiler

Agreed. It did seem out of character compared to his other actions to that point, and I didn't understand what was wrong with his hand.

Spoiler

Maybe I misread. I just took his inability to grasp the sword as a sign of having already been stabbed and not yet realizing/believing it, as with Marsh's "punch" to the stomach.

That's the way I read it too

 

[TeamDingo]

Spoiler

A few things bothered me about the last Jon chapter. He had been so steadfast about keeping the Nights Watch neutral in the conflict between Stannis and Tommen/Bolton it seemed odd that the letter from Ramsay would have sent him over the edge. It didn't ring true for me. There was also a passage where Jon reaches for Longclaw but his hand turns clumsy. That sort of gave the impression that he and Davos (short fingers) had switched places - potentially glamored by Melissandre. Of course, if that were true then the part of the chapter where he misses Rob, Arya, Bran etc wouldn't really make sense. Either way the part about his hand becoming clumsy seemed strange to me, but perhaps I'm over analyzing.I was extremely pissed off when I read that chapter, but after cooling down a bit I convinced myself that there's now way he's actually dead. I think the 'reborn' theory is the most likely.

Spoiler

Agreed. It did seem out of character compared to his other actions to that point, and I didn't understand what was wrong with his hand.

Spoiler

Chronic masturbation post-Ygritte

I am pretty sure this is why he made Satin his steward. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

 

[parrot]

Spoiler

A few things bothered me about the last Jon chapter. He had been so steadfast about keeping the Nights Watch neutral in the conflict between Stannis and Tommen/Bolton it seemed odd that the letter from Ramsay would have sent him over the edge. It didn't ring true for me. There was also a passage where Jon reaches for Longclaw but his hand turns clumsy. That sort of gave the impression that he and Davos (short fingers) had switched places - potentially glamored by Melissandre. Of course, if that were true then the part of the chapter where he misses Rob, Arya, Bran etc wouldn't really make sense. Either way the part about his hand becoming clumsy seemed strange to me, but perhaps I'm over analyzing.I was extremely pissed off when I read that chapter, but after cooling down a bit I convinced myself that there's now way he's actually dead. I think the 'reborn' theory is the most likely.

Spoiler

Agreed. It did seem out of character compared to his other actions to that point, and I didn't understand what was wrong with his hand.

Spoiler

Maybe I misread. I just took his inability to grasp the sword as a sign of having already been stabbed and not yet realizing/believing it, as with Marsh's "punch" to the stomach.

That's the way I read it too

Spoiler

Yeah, maybe it's that simple. I'm not on board with the Davos theory but it just seemed strange as described; the first dagger slash "barely grazed his skin", he fumbles with Longclaw, March "punches" him in the stomach, then the "third dagger" takes him between the shoulder blades. Nothing as described seemed to really account for his hands suddenly being "stiff and clumsy". Probably reading too much into it though.

 

[Sabertooth]

I cracked up when I just read last night

Spoiler

where Tyrion is convincing Nurse to purchase Jorah. "we dance around and then I kick him in the balls, it's hilarious!" I hope he gets to do it once.

 

[Gr00vus]

Spoiler

A few things bothered me about the last Jon chapter. He had been so steadfast about keeping the Nights Watch neutral in the conflict between Stannis and Tommen/Bolton it seemed odd that the letter from Ramsay would have sent him over the edge. It didn't ring true for me. There was also a passage where Jon reaches for Longclaw but his hand turns clumsy. That sort of gave the impression that he and Davos (short fingers) had switched places - potentially glamored by Melissandre. Of course, if that were true then the part of the chapter where he misses Rob, Arya, Bran etc wouldn't really make sense. Either way the part about his hand becoming clumsy seemed strange to me, but perhaps I'm over analyzing.I was extremely pissed off when I read that chapter, but after cooling down a bit I convinced myself that there's now way he's actually dead. I think the 'reborn' theory is the most likely.

Spoiler

Agreed. It did seem out of character compared to his other actions to that point, and I didn't understand what was wrong with his hand.

Spoiler

Maybe I misread. I just took his inability to grasp the sword as a sign of having already been stabbed and not yet realizing/believing it, as with Marsh's "punch" to the stomach.

That's the way I read it too

Spoiler

Yeah, maybe it's that simple. I'm not on board with the Davos theory but it just seemed strange as described; the first dagger slash "barely grazed his skin", he fumbles with Longclaw, March "punches" him in the stomach, then the "third dagger" takes him between the shoulder blades. Nothing as described seemed to really account for his hands suddenly being "stiff and clumsy". Probably reading too much into it though. I figured whoever it is that stabbed him in the back was also inhibiting his ability to draw his sword (which Martin took great pains earlier to explain why the ******* sword had to be worn on his back).

 

[Gr00vus]

Spoiler

A few things bothered me about the last Jon chapter. He had been so steadfast about keeping the Nights Watch neutral in the conflict between Stannis and Tommen/Bolton it seemed odd that the letter from Ramsay would have sent him over the edge. It didn't ring true for me. There was also a passage where Jon reaches for Longclaw but his hand turns clumsy. That sort of gave the impression that he and Davos (short fingers) had switched places - potentially glamored by Melissandre. Of course, if that were true then the part of the chapter where he misses Rob, Arya, Bran etc wouldn't really make sense. Either way the part about his hand becoming clumsy seemed strange to me, but perhaps I'm over analyzing.I was extremely pissed off when I read that chapter, but after cooling down a bit I convinced myself that there's now way he's actually dead. I think the 'reborn' theory is the most likely.

Agreed. It did seem out of character compared to his other actions to that point

Spoiler

I figure he finally broke because the letter keeps demanding Ramsay's bride back. John still doesn't know it wasn't really Arya and he doesn't know where Arya is, so I'd imagine he wants to go south to find her before Ramsay does. He also has an interest in freeing Rayder since he probably would like him to command a castle and he'd be a good influence on the wildings south of the wall. He also needs to find out what really happened to Stannis and the banker he sent to Stannis who's supposed to be giving the Night's Watch a loan. Lots of reasons to go south for Jon.On another note, I think Manderly sent the letter to Jon, that no battle has yet been fought between Stannis and Bolton, and that Manderly hopes Jon going south with some force will turn the tide against the Boltons/Freys. Manderly did know all the things that were in the letter.

 

[Gr00vus]

Just finished this on the last day of our beach vacation. Gonna be a long, angry 12 hour drive home......Not a fan of any of the Daenarys chapters

Agreed. Martin has developed habits that have gone from intriguing to annoying. One is ending every other chapter with a cliffhanger. It's o.k. in small doses but it's worn thin on me at this point. It's good to actually resolve some things up front rather than behind the scenes. Having incessant cliff hangers lessens the impact of the important cliff hangers. The second is spending way too much time meandering through what end up being minor plot points or just plain filler. In particular the Jaime and Brienne chapters in AFFC take tons of pages to tell very little story. But there are many other similar chapters that encapsulate one or two small points of interest over too many pages. It's like Tolkien's propensity to spend too much time describing landscapes, horticulture and geography. Less annoying than the previous two complaints but still annoying is his propensity to use death as a stimulus or resolution. I get that it's a cruel, hard world he set up, but like the cliff hangers, the sheer amount of attrition among characters lessens the impact of any particular death. That said I'm very unhappy with the 3rd to last chapter (not counting the epilogue).

Spoiler

If Jon is actually dead I'll think much less of this series. Let me hang on to one actual hero at least! I'd wager he won't truly die, Martin's left many avenues open and tons of seeming foreshadowing of some sort of rebirth for Jon and him playing a major role in future events, but then again once Ned got the axe, all bets were off. Also, do we assume Ghost avoided execution?I'm hoping Arya gets much more attention going forward. I'm really looking forward to seeing what she does once she completes her apprenticeship and then if/when she returns to Westeros. The scene a few books ago where the old dwarf crone looks at her and cries out in pain calling her a monster sticks in my head. What kind of mayhem is she going to spread? Will she learn to let go of her vengeful streak, or will she use her powers/skills for bloody payback? Does she ever get reunited with her wolf? Also I want to see if Syrio is still around somewhere, as I think he is. Maybe he's the kindly old man, maybe he's Jaqen H'Gar, maybe just a brother/minon of theirs?It was nice to see Varys return. He and Littlefinger have gotten way short shrift in the last couple of books. Obviously Varys has been plotting to return the dragons to the throne the whole time (which also explains the lousy job he did setting up the assassination attempt on Dany - heck he probably even told Jorah about it ahead of time). I wonder if Littlefinger has such noble motives or is truly only in it for himself and coming out on top of the Starks.

 

[thecatch]

Spoiler

On another note, I think Manderly sent the letter to Jon, that no battle has yet been fought between Stannis and Bolton, and that Manderly hopes Jon going south with some force will turn the tide against the Boltons/Freys. Manderly did know all the things that were in the letter.

Spoiler

How did Manderly know about Mance?

 

[Gr00vus]

Spoiler

On another note, I think Manderly sent the letter to Jon, that no battle has yet been fought between Stannis and Bolton, and that Manderly hopes Jon going south with some force will turn the tide against the Boltons/Freys. Manderly did know all the things that were in the letter.

Spoiler

How did Manderly know about Mance?

Spoiler

It seemed like the escape attempt went quagmire when Jeyne screamed. I don't think any of Maynce's party escaped and Ramsay probably flayed them into talking. Manderly witnessed/heard the results.

 

[Gr00vus]

So what's more likely:

Book 6 comes out before HBO adapts/shows all the existing ones.

Book 6 comes out after that.

Book 6 (and any other proposed follow ons) never comes out.

The HBO series gets cancelled without completing the existing books.

The last two are obviously not mutually exclusive.

 

[TeamDingo]

Spoiler

On another note, I think Manderly sent the letter to Jon, that no battle has yet been fought between Stannis and Bolton, and that Manderly hopes Jon going south with some force will turn the tide against the Boltons/Freys. Manderly did know all the things that were in the letter.

Spoiler

Why does Manderly want "my Reek" back?

 

[ScottNorwood]

So what's more likely:Book 6 comes out before HBO adapts/shows all the existing ones.Book 6 comes out after that.Book 6 (and any other proposed follow ons) never comes out.The HBO series gets cancelled without completing the existing books.The last two are obviously not mutually exclusive.

I think book 6 will come out before the HBO series catches up. That's at least 5 years away and possibly more because HBO 'seasons' can potentially be spread apart by more than 1 year.I think the tv series easily goes to season 4. The first three books are very strong and I think that will easily keep people's interest. The 4th book meanders a lot and focuses on some of the less interesting characters IMO. The timeline of the 5th book overlaps the 4th, so I have no idea how the show is going to deal with that.The 4th season is where they will have the potential to lose a ton of viewers, but my feeling is that the TV series will weather the storm and finish up and that the author will stay a step ahead of the show.

 

[rolyaTy]

Spoiler

On another note, I think Manderly sent the letter to Jon, that no battle has yet been fought between Stannis and Bolton, and that Manderly hopes Jon going south with some force will turn the tide against the Boltons/Freys. Manderly did know all the things that were in the letter.

Spoiler

Why does Manderly want "my Reek" back?

Spoiler

He never wanted Reek to leave, the bastards dad took reek away to add an air of authenticity to the arya stark wedding. Reek and the fake arya escaped the castle, and all the ******* knows is that reek is gone. He wants him back because he's a sadistic ******* who likes keeping him chained up like a dog or cutting off fingers etc.

 

[thecatch]

Spoiler

On another note, I think Manderly sent the letter to Jon, that no battle has yet been fought between Stannis and Bolton, and that Manderly hopes Jon going south with some force will turn the tide against the Boltons/Freys. Manderly did know all the things that were in the letter.

Spoiler

Why does Manderly want "my Reek" back?

Spoiler

He never wanted Reek to leave, the bastards dad took reek away to add an air of authenticity to the arya stark wedding. Reek and the fake arya escaped the castle, and all the ******* knows is that reek is gone. He wants him back because he's a sadistic ******* who likes keeping him chained up like a dog or cutting off fingers etc.

Spoiler

That addresses why Ramsey would want Theon back, not Manderly. I'd guess, if Manderly forged the letter, that this bit was put in to just make it seem authentic.

 

[rolyaTy]

Just finished this on the last day of our beach vacation. Gonna be a long, angry 12 hour drive home......Not a fan of any of the Daenarys chapters

Agreed. Martin has developed habits that have gone from intriguing to annoying. One is ending every other chapter with a cliffhanger. It's o.k. in small doses but it's worn thin on me at this point. It's good to actually resolve some things up front rather than behind the scenes. Having incessant cliff hangers lessens the impact of the important cliff hangers. The second is spending way too much time meandering through what end up being minor plot points or just plain filler. In particular the Jaime and Brienne chapters in AFFC take tons of pages to tell very little story. But there are many other similar chapters that encapsulate one or two small points of interest over too many pages. It's like Tolkien's propensity to spend too much time describing landscapes, horticulture and geography. Less annoying than the previous two complaints but still annoying is his propensity to use death as a stimulus or resolution. I get that it's a cruel, hard world he set up, but like the cliff hangers, the sheer amount of attrition among characters lessens the impact of any particular death. That said I'm very unhappy with the 3rd to last chapter (not counting the epilogue).

Spoiler

If Jon is actually dead I'll think much less of this series. Let me hang on to one actual hero at least! I'd wager he won't truly die, Martin's left many avenues open and tons of seeming foreshadowing of some sort of rebirth for Jon and him playing a major role in future events, but then again once Ned got the axe, all bets were off. Also, do we assume Ghost avoided execution?I'm hoping Arya gets much more attention going forward. I'm really looking forward to seeing what she does once she completes her apprenticeship and then if/when she returns to Westeros. The scene a few books ago where the old dwarf crone looks at her and cries out in pain calling her a monster sticks in my head. What kind of mayhem is she going to spread? Will she learn to let go of her vengeful streak, or will she use her powers/skills for bloody payback? Does she ever get reunited with her wolf? Also I want to see if Syrio is still around somewhere, as I think he is. Maybe he's the kindly old man, maybe he's Jaqen H'Gar, maybe just a brother/minon of theirs?It was nice to see Varys return. He and Littlefinger have gotten way short shrift in the last couple of books. Obviously Varys has been plotting to return the dragons to the throne the whole time (which also explains the lousy job he did setting up the assassination attempt on Dany - heck he probably even told Jorah about it ahead of time). I wonder if Littlefinger has such noble motives or is truly only in it for himself and coming out on top of the Starks.

Spoiler

I think Jon isn't dead, as he's around the red lady, and she's got all kinds of tricks up her sleeves to heal him. It would be gratuitous to kill him off now, imo. I enjoyed Danny riding the dragon, but I felt that this entire book could've been 1/5th as long and conveyed the same details. This is a book that screams for a film/series adaptation to cut out all the stuffing and just present the meat...could easily do that in one season combining books 4 and 5 into about a 13 episode season.I'm annoyed that so little of many of the characters stories are told, because I'm really interested in what's going on with them. In summary, I'm really happy with about 1/10th of the book, very well written, good plots, etc. About 5/10ths I'm satisfied with but not overjoyed, and the remaining 4/10ths i'm disappointed, in the plot, in the brevity of each characters stories, in where the story left off, and most importantly, how long it'll likely be before the story continues. I'll be at a different stage in my life and likely won't want to revisit the series like I would if it was out now.

 

[rolyaTy]

Spoiler

On another note, I think Manderly sent the letter to Jon, that no battle has yet been fought between Stannis and Bolton, and that Manderly hopes Jon going south with some force will turn the tide against the Boltons/Freys. Manderly did know all the things that were in the letter.

Spoiler

Why does Manderly want "my Reek" back?

Spoiler

He never wanted Reek to leave, the bastards dad took reek away to add an air of authenticity to the arya stark wedding. Reek and the fake arya escaped the castle, and all the ******* knows is that reek is gone. He wants him back because he's a sadistic ******* who likes keeping him chained up like a dog or cutting off fingers etc.

Spoiler

That addresses why Ramsey would want Theon back, not Manderly. I'd guess, if Manderly forged the letter, that this bit was put in to just make it seem authentic.

Spoiler

Yeah, i left that leap of logic out. I think Ramsey forged the letter and is now in control of the castle, or at the very least just took it on his own initiative to send the letter out...because as you point out, the request for Reek is very Ramsey-like, not so much Manderly, which made me automatically think that Ramsey wrote it.

 

[Gr00vus]

Spoiler

On another note, I think Manderly sent the letter to Jon, that no battle has yet been fought between Stannis and Bolton, and that Manderly hopes Jon going south with some force will turn the tide against the Boltons/Freys. Manderly did know all the things that were in the letter.

Spoiler

Why does Manderly want "my Reek" back?

Spoiler

He never wanted Reek to leave, the bastards dad took reek away to add an air of authenticity to the arya stark wedding. Reek and the fake arya escaped the castle, and all the ******* knows is that reek is gone. He wants him back because he's a sadistic ******* who likes keeping him chained up like a dog or cutting off fingers etc.

Spoiler

That addresses why Ramsey would want Theon back, not Manderly. I'd guess, if Manderly forged the letter, that this bit was put in to just make it seem authentic.

Spoiler

That's my thinking. Manderly can't ask Jon for help directly in case the Freys/Boltons intercept his message. So he goes this route and if the message gets intercepted Ramsay gets the blame for it. Also, broadcasting his intentions isn't exactly Ramsay's style, he and his father are pretty sneaky, cunning dudes. If the had really ended Stannis and wanted a piece of Jon, they'd be more likely to show up unexpected. Since they caught Maynce and his crew, and ostensibly wiped out Stannis, its unlikely that Theon/Jeyne made it very far considering the storm/snows. Why would they assume they'd made it all the way to the wall? They'd likely be closer to Winterfell than the Wall, why not just track them down as Ramsay loves to do? Why alert Jon that his "sister" is out there to be picked up? Just to get Melissandre/Stannis's Wife/The Wilding Princess? Doubtful, Bolton isn't one to borrow trouble. I'm probably over thinking it.

 

[Abrantes]

So what's more likely:

Book 6 comes out before HBO adapts/shows all the existing ones.

Book 6 comes out after that.

Book 6 (and any other proposed follow ons) never comes out.

The HBO series gets cancelled without completing the existing books.

The last two are obviously not mutually exclusive.

I think book 6 will come out before the HBO series catches up. That's at least 5 years away and possibly more because HBO 'seasons' can potentially be spread apart by more than 1 year.I think the tv series easily goes to season 4. The first three books are very strong and I think that will easily keep people's interest. The 4th book meanders a lot and focuses on some of the less interesting characters IMO. The timeline of the 5th book overlaps the 4th, so I have no idea how the show is going to deal with that.

The 4th season is where they will have the potential to lose a ton of viewers, but my feeling is that the TV series will weather the storm and finish up and that the author will stay a step ahead of the show.

I do believe book 6 will come out before the HBO series catches up, particularly since they're discussing spreading books 2 + 3 over 3 seasons, rather than 2. Also, I believe that A Feast for Crows and A Dance With Dragons will come across a lot better on screen. Apart from trimming out the fat (and there's plenty), I expect them to combine the stories, rather than go along with the artificial POV split.