George R.R. Martin - "A Dance With Dragons" (1 Viewer)

[JerseyToughGuys]

So who makes the worst decisions in this story? So many candidates, my opinion on that changes from chapter to chapter. I think I have it down to:

Spoiler

Theon, Cersei, CatelynI'd probably go with Catelyn, though she sort of falls out of the picture half way through. Theon seems to deliver the poor decisions on a much more consistent basis.Either Robb or Eddard probably make the singular worst decision.I can't tell if Dany is a #### up or just riding her destiny yet.I think this is probably a big reason why Arya is my favorite character - though she seemingly gets swept along with events regardless of her will, she seems to be making more good decisions than anyone when she gets the chance. I'm really looking forward to seeing how she plays into the finale, as she's not really one of the "big 3" (Tyrion, Dany, Jon) or 4 (if you include Bran who seems destined for some big mystical type things) and hasn't had as much explicit foreshadowing in terms of her potential role (the main exception being when that hag freaks out in her presence). I hope she comes back to Westeros and kicks the #### out of everyone Nymeria style.

Spoiler

Sansa's decision not to push Joff off the ledge was a pretty poor decision. She was THIS CLOSE.

Spoiler

Meh. That was her perception. I doubt the Hound would have let her do jack.Besides, she helps take care of business later anyway. Her #### up was running to Cersei with Ned's plans. Which is really just a follow on from Ned's #### up of telling her, and not having the right plan to begin with.

Spoiler

Ned telling Cersei that he knows and is going to spill the beans is more overtly stupid than Cat nabbing Tyrion. She could've been smarter about it, but there was stuff she didn't know about that was going on. Ned, my ninja Ned, knew Cersei was a coldblooded, calculating freak with the most ambitious and powerful house filled with shady characters vying for control. She killed one Hand, but he tipped his hand to her and expected her to run? The Starks, by and large, are pretty ####### stupid or naive or too isolated in the North to know better.

Spoiler

prior to Ned, which hand did she kill??? (and, actually, Joff killed Ned not Cersei

 

[thecatch]

So who makes the worst decisions in this story? So many candidates, my opinion on that changes from chapter to chapter. I think I have it down to:

Spoiler

Theon, Cersei, CatelynI'd probably go with Catelyn, though she sort of falls out of the picture half way through. Theon seems to deliver the poor decisions on a much more consistent basis.Either Robb or Eddard probably make the singular worst decision.I can't tell if Dany is a #### up or just riding her destiny yet.I think this is probably a big reason why Arya is my favorite character - though she seemingly gets swept along with events regardless of her will, she seems to be making more good decisions than anyone when she gets the chance. I'm really looking forward to seeing how she plays into the finale, as she's not really one of the "big 3" (Tyrion, Dany, Jon) or 4 (if you include Bran who seems destined for some big mystical type things) and hasn't had as much explicit foreshadowing in terms of her potential role (the main exception being when that hag freaks out in her presence). I hope she comes back to Westeros and kicks the #### out of everyone Nymeria style.

Spoiler

Sansa runs away with this. Not the sharpest tool in the shed.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

I will read the epilouge this afternoon.

Let's talk Dany and her last chapter:

Spoiler

I have to say that I was disappointed with her and her chapters for the majority of the book. Maybe it is having too many expectations and GRRM is actually keeping things real, but she just seemed to have a stunt in her development and really reverted to almost a child at times giving in to whims and emotion even when trying not to. Maybe his point was just that though. Both she and John were uncomfortable leading, so perhaps GRRM was trying to show us that and move them on to what their real roles are supposed to be: Jon dying (and hopefully reborn) and Dany leaving Meereen and bringing her dragons to Westeros to join Jon (and eventually Tyrion or Aegon?) in the battle for the realm of men against the white walkers.

That last chapter itself confused me a bit though. She is bleeding now? After drinking the bad water and the bowel issues, I was thinking she was falling victim to the bloody flux. Then she was referring to getting her period, however, a much heavier flow. I was thinking she didn't get her period anymore because she was barren. Then the large blood flow could mean a miscarriage?

Let's talk about the Quaithe prophecies:

To go north, you must journey south, to reach the west you must go east. To go forward you must go back and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.

I'm thinking the go north portion means she needs to go to Dorne before she heads to the Wall.

To reach west you must go east . . . did she do this already? It's confusing because she went East from Pentos to Vas Dothrak. Then South through the Red Waste. Then West from Quarth to Slaver's Bay. And then instead of heading West at that point, she journeyed East through Slaver's Bay taking out each slaver stronghold.

To go forward, you must go back . . . does that mean joining the new Khalasar. As she was "born" in one Khalsar, grew up away from it, and now is back?

To touch the light, you must pass beneath the shadow: She has to die? She has to pass beneath the wall? I'm not sure on this one at all really.

The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying.

We know the glass candles are burning in the Citadel which means dragons and magic are back.

Pale Mare was literal and the bloody flux.

Kraken and dark flame are Victarion and his red priest, but they haven't arrived yet.

Lion was Tyrion, but he hasn't really reached her. And why not trust him?

Griffen was Jon Connington. But he never reached her either.

Sun's son was obviously Quentyn, but again, why would he not be trustworthy?

Mummer's dragon is likely Aegon. Whether that means he is fake or is Vary's dragon I'm not sure yet.

Remember the undying to me means to remember her experience there. The betrayal and what she also saw.What are your thoughts on these things? They seem to be important to her and the overall story.

Somebody mentioned earlier or in the other thread that Dany saw a wolf surrounded by shadow flames in the tent when Khal Drogo was "saved" but I do not recall that. What else did she see and what does it mean?

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

I will read the epilouge this afternoon.

Let's talk Dany and her last chapter:

Spoiler

I have to say that I was disappointed with her and her chapters for the majority of the book. Maybe it is having too many expectations and GRRM is actually keeping things real, but she just seemed to have a stunt in her development and really reverted to almost a child at times giving in to whims and emotion even when trying not to. Maybe his point was just that though. Both she and John were uncomfortable leading, so perhaps GRRM was trying to show us that and move them on to what their real roles are supposed to be: Jon dying (and hopefully reborn) and Dany leaving Meereen and bringing her dragons to Westeros to join Jon (and eventually Tyrion or Aegon?) in the battle for the realm of men against the white walkers.

Spoiler

I think this is the case. He does a funny thing where he has her use her tongue in cheek statement of "what do I know, I am just a young girl" to show she is anything but, but then behind the scenes it's revealed she really is just a young girl. Much like the Brienne story arc being used to develop Jamie a bit more, I think Martin stuck her Meereen to help develop her a bit more.

As to the blood, I completely missed it. Maybe she is back to being fertile? That'd be a little hokey.

As for the prophesies, no idea what so ever. Martin has made it a point to continually note that prophesies are tricky things and often lead people down the wrong path. So some part of that entire thing has to be a deadend/incorrect turn.

 

[mad sweeney]

So who makes the worst decisions in this story? So many candidates, my opinion on that changes from chapter to chapter. I think I have it down to:

Spoiler

Theon, Cersei, CatelynI'd probably go with Catelyn, though she sort of falls out of the picture half way through. Theon seems to deliver the poor decisions on a much more consistent basis.Either Robb or Eddard probably make the singular worst decision.I can't tell if Dany is a #### up or just riding her destiny yet.I think this is probably a big reason why Arya is my favorite character - though she seemingly gets swept along with events regardless of her will, she seems to be making more good decisions than anyone when she gets the chance. I'm really looking forward to seeing how she plays into the finale, as she's not really one of the "big 3" (Tyrion, Dany, Jon) or 4 (if you include Bran who seems destined for some big mystical type things) and hasn't had as much explicit foreshadowing in terms of her potential role (the main exception being when that hag freaks out in her presence). I hope she comes back to Westeros and kicks the #### out of everyone Nymeria style.

Spoiler

Sansa's decision not to push Joff off the ledge was a pretty poor decision. She was THIS CLOSE.

Spoiler

Meh. That was her perception. I doubt the Hound would have let her do jack.Besides, she helps take care of business later anyway. Her #### up was running to Cersei with Ned's plans. Which is really just a follow on from Ned's #### up of telling her, and not having the right plan to begin with.

Spoiler

Ned telling Cersei that he knows and is going to spill the beans is more overtly stupid than Cat nabbing Tyrion. She could've been smarter about it, but there was stuff she didn't know about that was going on. Ned, my ninja Ned, knew Cersei was a coldblooded, calculating freak with the most ambitious and powerful house filled with shady characters vying for control. She killed one Hand, but he tipped his hand to her and expected her to run? The Starks, by and large, are pretty ####### stupid or naive or too isolated in the North to know better.

Spoiler

prior to Ned, which hand did she kill??? (and, actually, Joff killed Ned not Cersei

Spoiler

At the time, Ned thought she killed Aryn and shouldn't have relied on his office to protect him in the face of what he knew (or thought) she was capable of. She would've killed Ned if he didn't acquiesce and legitimize Joffrey.

 

[TeamDingo]

?

Spoiler

Who is Aegon/Young Griff

Spoiler

I think he's an imposter of some sort.

Spoiler

I think Aegon is likely a black dragon and not a red. A Blackfyre and not a Targaryen. I also think he is likely Illyrio's son with Serra (she would have been descended from the female line of Blackfyre's)I think Aegon and JonCon believe he is legit.

 

[Gr00vus]

TeamDingo's insight into this series never fails to blow me away.

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

TeamDingo's insight into this series never fails to blow me away.

 

[Swing 51]

?

Spoiler

Who is Aegon/Young Griff

Spoiler

I think he's an imposter of some sort.

Spoiler

I think Aegon is likely a black dragon and not a red. A Blackfyre and not a Targaryen. I also think he is likely Illyrio's son with Serra (she would have been descended from the female line of Blackfyre's)I think Aegon and JonCon believe he is legit.

Spoiler

How would a Blackfyre have a non Targ father? I thought all Blackfyres are descendants of Aegon IV (aka Aegon the Unworthy).

 

[TeamDingo]

?

Spoiler

Who is Aegon/Young Griff

Spoiler

I think he's an imposter of some sort.

Spoiler

I think Aegon is likely a black dragon and not a red. A Blackfyre and not a Targaryen. I also think he is likely Illyrio's son with Serra (she would have been descended from the female line of Blackfyre's)I think Aegon and JonCon believe he is legit.

Spoiler

How would a Blackfyre have a non Targ father? I thought all Blackfyres are descendants of Aegon IV (aka Aegon the Unworthy).

Spoiler

He would be a Blackfyre through the female line. My guess is that any male Blackfyres before Aegon have been cut (including Varys).

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

?

Spoiler

Who is Aegon/Young Griff

Spoiler

I think he's an imposter of some sort.

Spoiler

I think Aegon is likely a black dragon and not a red. A Blackfyre and not a Targaryen. I also think he is likely Illyrio's son with Serra (she would have been descended from the female line of Blackfyre's)I think Aegon and JonCon believe he is legit.

Spoiler

How would a Blackfyre have a non Targ father? I thought all Blackfyres are descendants of Aegon IV (aka Aegon the Unworthy).

Spoiler

He would be a Blackfyre through the female line. My guess is that any male Blackfyres before Aegon have been cut (including Varys).

Cut by whom and why? And what is this about Varys? (or should I read the epilogue first?)

 

[Abrantes]

?

Spoiler

Who is Aegon/Young Griff

Spoiler

I think he's an imposter of some sort.

Spoiler

I think Aegon is likely a black dragon and not a red. A Blackfyre and not a Targaryen. I also think he is likely Illyrio's son with Serra (she would have been descended from the female line of Blackfyre's)I think Aegon and JonCon believe he is legit.

Spoiler

How would a Blackfyre have a non Targ father? I thought all Blackfyres are descendants of Aegon IV (aka Aegon the Unworthy).

Spoiler

He would be a Blackfyre through the female line. My guess is that any male Blackfyres before Aegon have been cut (including Varys).

Cut by whom and why? And what is this about Varys? (or should I read the epilogue first?)Nothing to do with the epilogue. Just fan speculation about Varys' family history and how it might explain his goals.

 

[Gr00vus]

Just about at the end of Storm of Swords again. I had forgotten just how full of slimy back stabbers Westeros is.

Spoiler

Man the Westerlings/Spicers did a number on the Starks. And Tywin was cunning as ####. I'm almost sad we don't get to see more of him in operation after this book. Dude was a master manipulator - except when it came to his own children, his fatal flaw being never figuring out or exploiting their motivations. I think part of the problem with the subsequent 2 books is Martin killed off too many of the most interesting characters in this one without replacing them with equally interesting people.

 

[Gr00vus]

Spoiler

So do you guys buy Littlefinger being the guy behind offing John Aryn and basically setting all the events in motion?

Does he really think he can win this thing and end up being king of Westeros? He has lordship of Harrenhal, he's defacto ruler of the Vale (for a year, possibly more if he's truly outsmarted the lords there), and I imagine he sees himself marrying Sansa (assuming along with him that Tyrion winds up dead soon, or they somehow get the marriage annulled) and thus becomes defacto lord of Winterfell (again assuming Bran and Rickon are toast). If that all plays out, is it still even enough to lay claim to the Iron Throne? Does he really think he could keep that mess together?

He has to know Dany is coming, with dragons as well, as he seems to be pretty well informed. What's his play there?

Who's the better schemer - Littlefinger or Varys?

I wish Martin had spent more time with these two over the last two books.

 

[Nick Vermeil]

So I'm finally through all the books and I have a question about the beginning of "Crows". WTF was the prologue all about? Did any of those characters ever return in Crows or Dragons?

 

[Gr00vus]

So I'm finally through all the books and I have a question about the beginning of "Crows". WTF was the prologue all about? Did any of those characters ever return in Crows or Dragons?

Well the alchemist was Jaqen H'Gar, so he seems to have a continuing role to play at least in terms of whatever it is he took. Also I think Sam has to deal with some of those guys while he's in Oldtown.

 

[Nick Vermeil]

So I'm finally through all the books and I have a question about the beginning of "Crows". WTF was the prologue all about? Did any of those characters ever return in Crows or Dragons?

Well the alchemist was Jaqen H'Gar, so he seems to have a continuing role to play at least in terms of whatever it is he took. Also I think Sam has to deal with some of those guys while he's in Oldtown.

What a weird prologue I guess. That is a lot of pages to go through with no return of the characters that open the book.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

So I'm finally through all the books and I have a question about the beginning of "Crows". WTF was the prologue all about? Did any of those characters ever return in Crows or Dragons?

Well the alchemist was Jaqen H'Gar, so he seems to have a continuing role to play at least in terms of whatever it is he took. Also I think Sam has to deal with some of those guys while he's in Oldtown.

What a weird prologue I guess. That is a lot of pages to go through with no return of the characters that open the book.

Sam meets some of them once he is there. I forget, is Jaqen CONFIRMED to be the alchemist, or are we just assuming that is he is that particular Faceless Man?

 

[Gr00vus]

So I'm finally through all the books and I have a question about the beginning of "Crows". WTF was the prologue all about? Did any of those characters ever return in Crows or Dragons?

Well the alchemist was Jaqen H'Gar, so he seems to have a continuing role to play at least in terms of whatever it is he took. Also I think Sam has to deal with some of those guys while he's in Oldtown.

What a weird prologue I guess. That is a lot of pages to go through with no return of the characters that open the book.

Yeah, he's kinda done that in some of the other prologues though. Little vignettes consisting of basically minor characters to inject some anticipation/foreboding of things to come.

 

[Gr00vus]

So I'm finally through all the books and I have a question about the beginning of "Crows". WTF was the prologue all about? Did any of those characters ever return in Crows or Dragons?

Well the alchemist was Jaqen H'Gar, so he seems to have a continuing role to play at least in terms of whatever it is he took. Also I think Sam has to deal with some of those guys while he's in Oldtown.

What a weird prologue I guess. That is a lot of pages to go through with no return of the characters that open the book.

Sam meets some of them once he is there. I forget, is Jaqen CONFIRMED to be the alchemist, or are we just assuming that is he is that particular Faceless Man?

I'm assuming it's Jaqen solely because the alchemist had the same guise as the one Jaqen took when he left Arya at Harrenhal. I could be totally wrong - like how irrationally I value Pau Gasol.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

So I'm finally through all the books and I have a question about the beginning of "Crows". WTF was the prologue all about? Did any of those characters ever return in Crows or Dragons?

Well the alchemist was Jaqen H'Gar, so he seems to have a continuing role to play at least in terms of whatever it is he took. Also I think Sam has to deal with some of those guys while he's in Oldtown.

What a weird prologue I guess. That is a lot of pages to go through with no return of the characters that open the book.

Sam meets some of them once he is there. I forget, is Jaqen CONFIRMED to be the alchemist, or are we just assuming that is he is that particular Faceless Man?

I'm assuming it's Jaqen solely because the alchemist had the same guise as the one Jaqen took when he left Arya at Harrenhal. I could be totally wrong - like how irrationally I value Pau Gasol.

I knew there was some rationality for the chatter about it, I just couldn't recall what it is and I missed the indicators when reading. My second read throughs should be more interesting. Funny how that seems to be the case with these books.

 

[rail]

Finished Dance about three months ago. Still pissed about the ending and I suspect that Martin just really has no idea where this thing is ultimately headed.

Not sure if I need this spoiler tag, but just in case (whiny rant ahead):

Spoiler

Why the **** is Jon Snow suddenly going to run off to Winterfell to fight the *******? For several years he's been the stoic, unwavering "I'm a man of the wall, I don't get involved in the events of the kingdom, I swore an oath" blah blah blah, ad nauseum. Then on an apparent fleeting whim akin to a mummer's fart (thanks for the overuse of "mummer", btw), let's toss all that aside (and one of the best qualities that a MAJOR MAJOR character has) and have him try and go on some half-assed rescue mission? WTF?

Not only that, but now let's go ahead and kill off yet another one of the biggest and most important characters for some type of apparent shock value or just to shake things up. I understand deviating from a "typical" storyline, killing off some main players, etc. But at this point, the only real interesting and major characters are Daenarys (who is actually getting tired to me), Tyrion, and maybe Arya (who's also getting tired). Aside from having some random new characters pop up in the past couple of books (the Tyrells and another Targaeryn heir who just magically appears out of nowhere ), this plot is advancing nowhere. Dany still sits with her dragons to the East. A Lannister still sits the throne. Winterfell and the Starks are in shambles (aside from Bran, who apparently is going to turn into a tree - I guess that's something). The Crows are a bunch of weak castoffs sitting on a chunk of ice.

**SIGH. Such a great series that appears to just be going nowhere.

 

[Swing 51]

Finished Dance about three months ago. Still pissed about the ending and I suspect that Martin just really has no idea where this thing is ultimately headed.Not sure if I need this spoiler tag, but just in case (whiny rant ahead):

Spoiler

Why the **** is Jon Snow suddenly going to run off to Winterfell to fight the *******? For several years he's been the stoic, unwavering "I'm a man of the wall, I don't get involved in the events of the kingdom, I swore an oath" blah blah blah, ad nauseum. Then on an apparent fleeting whim akin to a mummer's fart (thanks for the overuse of "mummer", btw), let's toss all that aside (and one of the best qualities that a MAJOR MAJOR character has) and have him try and go on some half-assed rescue mission? WTF? Not only that, but now let's go ahead and kill off yet another one of the biggest and most important characters for some type of apparent shock value or just to shake things up. I understand deviating from a "typical" storyline, killing off some main players, etc. But at this point, the only real interesting and major characters are Daenarys (who is actually getting tired to me), Tyrion, and maybe Arya (who's also getting tired). Aside from having some random new characters pop up in the past couple of books (the Tyrells and another Targaeryn heir who just magically appears out of nowhere ), this plot is advancing nowhere. Dany still sits with her dragons to the East. A Lannister still sits the throne. Winterfell and the Starks are in shambles (aside from Bran, who apparently is going to turn into a tree - I guess that's something). The Crows are a bunch of weak castoffs sitting on a chunk of ice. **SIGH. Such a great series that appears to just be going nowhere.

Spoiler

Some ASOIAF geeks believe John will be "reborn" as Azor Ahai. Even if not, I doubt he's dead as he's a pretty major character; tho you could say the same about Ned so who knows what GRRM is thinking.

 

[Gr00vus]

Finished Dance about three months ago. Still pissed about the ending and I suspect that Martin just really has no idea where this thing is ultimately headed.Not sure if I need this spoiler tag, but just in case (whiny rant ahead):

Spoiler

Why the **** is Jon Snow suddenly going to run off to Winterfell to fight the *******? For several years he's been the stoic, unwavering "I'm a man of the wall, I don't get involved in the events of the kingdom, I swore an oath" blah blah blah, ad nauseum. Then on an apparent fleeting whim akin to a mummer's fart (thanks for the overuse of "mummer", btw), let's toss all that aside (and one of the best qualities that a MAJOR MAJOR character has) and have him try and go on some half-assed rescue mission? WTF? Not only that, but now let's go ahead and kill off yet another one of the biggest and most important characters for some type of apparent shock value or just to shake things up. I understand deviating from a "typical" storyline, killing off some main players, etc. But at this point, the only real interesting and major characters are Daenarys (who is actually getting tired to me), Tyrion, and maybe Arya (who's also getting tired). Aside from having some random new characters pop up in the past couple of books (the Tyrells and another Targaeryn heir who just magically appears out of nowhere ), this plot is advancing nowhere. Dany still sits with her dragons to the East. A Lannister still sits the throne. Winterfell and the Starks are in shambles (aside from Bran, who apparently is going to turn into a tree - I guess that's something). The Crows are a bunch of weak castoffs sitting on a chunk of ice. **SIGH. Such a great series that appears to just be going nowhere.

Spoiler

I imagine his thinking is he needs to get the North stabilized so that he can tap whatever northmen are left to help deal with what's about to go down with the whitewalkers/others. If he can eliminate the Boltons there's a better chance he'll get more help from guys like Manderly, etc, and whatever's left of Stanis's army. Also, as far as he knows, he's down to one sibling, he's sat by and let all the rest get killed, so he's going to try to save that last one he's got, who also seemed to be his favorite.Also, I don't think he's quite dead yet.Also, Arya rocks.And yes, Martin has gotten tediously meandering in the last two books.

 

[TeamDingo]

So I'm finally through all the books and I have a question about the beginning of "Crows". WTF was the prologue all about? Did any of those characters ever return in Crows or Dragons?

Well the alchemist was Jaqen H'Gar, so he seems to have a continuing role to play at least in terms of whatever it is he took. Also I think Sam has to deal with some of those guys while he's in Oldtown.

What a weird prologue I guess. That is a lot of pages to go through with no return of the characters that open the book.

Sam meets some of them once he is there. I forget, is Jaqen CONFIRMED to be the alchemist, or are we just assuming that is he is that particular Faceless Man?

Spoiler

Jaquen's description after he changes his face in Harrenhal

His cheeks grew fuller, his eyes closer; his nose hooked, a scar appeared on his right cheek where no scar had been before. And when he shook his head, his long straight hair, half red and half white, dissolved away to reveal a cap of tight black curls.

The Alchemist's description from AFfC Prologue

A young man’s face, ordinary, with full cheeks and the shadow of a beard. A scar showed faintly on his right cheek. He had a hooked nose, and a mat of dense black hair that curled tightly around his ears.

Who hired the FM from the AFfC prologue and to kill whom?

And of course there was even less chance of his coming on the fragmentary, anonymous, blood-soaked tome sometimes called Blood and Fire and sometimes The Death of Dragons, the only surviving copy of which was supposedly hidden away in a locked vault beneath the Citadel.

Is this what the Faceless Man who is Pate is after?

Something made Pate hesitate. “Is it some book you want?” Some of the old Valyrian scrolls down in the locked vaults were said to be the only surviving copies in the world. “What I want is none of your concern.”

 

[Gr00vus]

So I'm finally through all the books and I have a question about the beginning of "Crows". WTF was the prologue all about? Did any of those characters ever return in Crows or Dragons?

Well the alchemist was Jaqen H'Gar, so he seems to have a continuing role to play at least in terms of whatever it is he took. Also I think Sam has to deal with some of those guys while he's in Oldtown.

What a weird prologue I guess. That is a lot of pages to go through with no return of the characters that open the book.

Sam meets some of them once he is there. I forget, is Jaqen CONFIRMED to be the alchemist, or are we just assuming that is he is that particular Faceless Man?

Spoiler

Jaquen's description after he changes his face in Harrenhal

His cheeks grew fuller, his eyes closer; his nose hooked, a scar appeared on his right cheek where no scar had been before. And when he shook his head, his long straight hair, half red and half white, dissolved away to reveal a cap of tight black curls.

The Alchemist's description from AFfC Prologue

A young man’s face, ordinary, with full cheeks and the shadow of a beard. A scar showed faintly on his right cheek. He had a hooked nose, and a mat of dense black hair that curled tightly around his ears.

Who hired the FM from the AFfC prologue and to kill whom?

And of course there was even less chance of his coming on the fragmentary, anonymous, blood-soaked tome sometimes called Blood and Fire and sometimes The Death of Dragons, the only surviving copy of which was supposedly hidden away in a locked vault beneath the Citadel.

Is this what the Faceless Man who is Pate is after?

Something made Pate hesitate. “Is it some book you want?” Some of the old Valyrian scrolls down in the locked vaults were said to be the only surviving copies in the world. “What I want is none of your concern.”

Hey Dingo - where did the 3rd quote come from?

 

[TeamDingo]

So I'm finally through all the books and I have a question about the beginning of "Crows". WTF was the prologue all about? Did any of those characters ever return in Crows or Dragons?

Well the alchemist was Jaqen H'Gar, so he seems to have a continuing role to play at least in terms of whatever it is he took. Also I think Sam has to deal with some of those guys while he's in Oldtown.

What a weird prologue I guess. That is a lot of pages to go through with no return of the characters that open the book.

Sam meets some of them once he is there. I forget, is Jaqen CONFIRMED to be the alchemist, or are we just assuming that is he is that particular Faceless Man?

Spoiler

Jaquen's description after he changes his face in Harrenhal

His cheeks grew fuller, his eyes closer; his nose hooked, a scar appeared on his right cheek where no scar had been before. And when he shook his head, his long straight hair, half red and half white, dissolved away to reveal a cap of tight black curls.

The Alchemist's description from AFfC Prologue

A young man’s face, ordinary, with full cheeks and the shadow of a beard. A scar showed faintly on his right cheek. He had a hooked nose, and a mat of dense black hair that curled tightly around his ears.

Who hired the FM from the AFfC prologue and to kill whom?

And of course there was even less chance of his coming on the fragmentary, anonymous, blood-soaked tome sometimes called Blood and Fire and sometimes The Death of Dragons, the only surviving copy of which was supposedly hidden away in a locked vault beneath the Citadel.

Is this what the Faceless Man who is Pate is after?

Something made Pate hesitate. “Is it some book you want?” Some of the old Valyrian scrolls down in the locked vaults were said to be the only surviving copies in the world. “What I want is none of your concern.”

Hey Dingo - where did the 3rd quote come from?ADwD Tyrion IV - Pg 186 on my Kindle

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

ADwD Tyrion IV - Pg 186 on my Kindle

I recall that, but what was it in reference to?

 

[TeamDingo]

ADwD Tyrion IV - Pg 186 on my Kindle

I recall that, but what was it in reference to?

Tyrion's knowledge of dragons in preperation to tutor Young Griff. Is that what you are asking?

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

ADwD Tyrion IV - Pg 186 on my Kindle

I recall that, but what was it in reference to?

Tyrion's knowledge of dragons in preperation to tutor Young Griff. Is that what you are asking?

Yes. Thanks.

 

[Gr00vus]

ADwD Tyrion IV - Pg 186 on my Kindle

Ah, haven't reread ADwD yet so I didn't recall that passage. Thanks - how do you remember all this stuff?

 

[TeamDingo]

ADwD Tyrion IV - Pg 186 on my Kindle

Ah, haven't reread ADwD yet so I didn't recall that passage. Thanks - how do you remember all this stuff?

Why are you clicking on Spoiler tagged stuff in the ADwD thread then? Every question/discussion in here I have probably already discussed/seen on hard/softcore ASoIaF boards. If you like funny and informative podcasts and want to engage in ASoIaF debate/#### jokes, I highly recommendhttp://podcastoficeandfire.com/

 

[Gr00vus]

ADwD Tyrion IV - Pg 186 on my Kindle

Ah, haven't reread ADwD yet so I didn't recall that passage. Thanks - how do you remember all this stuff?

Why are you clicking on Spoiler tagged stuff in the ADwD thread then? Every question/discussion in here I have probably already discussed/seen on hard/softcore ASoIaF boards.

If you like funny and informative podcasts and want to engage in ASoIaF debate/#### jokes, I highly recommend

http://podcastoficeandfire.com/

I said reread - I read it once as soon as it came out and am making my way back around to it again. I'm half way through my second go round of AFFC right now. Was hoping to have reread the whole series before the show starts up again, but I don't think I'll quite make it.

 

[TeamDingo]

ADwD Tyrion IV - Pg 186 on my Kindle

Ah, haven't reread ADwD yet so I didn't recall that passage. Thanks - how do you remember all this stuff?

Why are you clicking on Spoiler tagged stuff in the ADwD thread then? Every question/discussion in here I have probably already discussed/seen on hard/softcore ASoIaF boards.

If you like funny and informative podcasts and want to engage in ASoIaF debate/#### jokes, I highly recommend

http://podcastoficeandfire.com/

I said reread - I read it once as soon as it came out and am making my way back around to it again. I'm half way through my second go round of AFFC right now. Was hoping to have reread the whole series before the show starts up again, but I don't think I'll quite make it.

Misread, apologies

 

[Abrantes]

Just about at the end of Storm of Swords again. I had forgotten just how full of slimy back stabbers Westeros is.

Spoiler

Man the Westerlings/Spicers did a number on the Starks. And Tywin was cunning as ####. I'm almost sad we don't get to see more of him in operation after this book. Dude was a master manipulator - except when it came to his own children, his fatal flaw being never figuring out or exploiting their motivations. I think part of the problem with the subsequent 2 books is Martin killed off too many of the most interesting characters in this one without replacing them with equally interesting people.

Bit late to the party, but I was just talking about this with a friend.

Spoiler

Tywin gets far too much credit for supposed cunning in the larger chess game. He's certainly written in a way that's supposed to make the readers see him as a masterful planner, I agree. However, if it were not for the Lannisters' apparently inexhaustible armies (poor writing) and a handful of instances of unexpected good fortune, he wouldn't have gotten anywhere.How was Tywin to know that Robb would marry Jeyne Westerling and incur the wrath (not wroth, ffs) of Walder Frey? Could he have predicted that Renly would be killed by a magical shadow? As the cards were dealt at the beginning of the conflict, Tywin had zero major allies while everyone else vied for the Iron Throne. Robb commanded the north and had the support of the riverlands. Renly had the Tyrells on his side. Tywin simply took advantage of the gifts presented to him on a silver platter. Overrated.

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

Just about at the end of Storm of Swords again. I had forgotten just how full of slimy back stabbers Westeros is.

Spoiler

Man the Westerlings/Spicers did a number on the Starks. And Tywin was cunning as ####. I'm almost sad we don't get to see more of him in operation after this book. Dude was a master manipulator - except when it came to his own children, his fatal flaw being never figuring out or exploiting their motivations. I think part of the problem with the subsequent 2 books is Martin killed off too many of the most interesting characters in this one without replacing them with equally interesting people.

Bit late to the party, but I was just talking about this with a friend.

Spoiler

Tywin gets far too much credit for supposed cunning in the larger chess game. He's certainly written in a way that's supposed to make the readers see him as a masterful planner, I agree. However, if it were not for the Lannisters' apparently inexhaustible armies (poor writing) and a handful of instances of unexpected good fortune, he wouldn't have gotten anywhere.How was Tywin to know that Robb would marry Jeyne Westerling and incur the wrath (not wroth, ffs) of Walder Frey? Could he have predicted that Renly would be killed by a magical shadow? As the cards were dealt at the beginning of the conflict, Tywin had zero major allies while everyone else vied for the Iron Throne. Robb commanded the north and had the support of the riverlands. Renly had the Tyrells on his side. Tywin simply took advantage of the gifts presented to him on a silver platter. Overrated.

Spoiler

Tywin arranged for the marriage via the Westerling mother. This is revealed in a Jamie chapter.

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

Just about at the end of Storm of Swords again. I had forgotten just how full of slimy back stabbers Westeros is.

Spoiler

Man the Westerlings/Spicers did a number on the Starks. And Tywin was cunning as ####. I'm almost sad we don't get to see more of him in operation after this book. Dude was a master manipulator - except when it came to his own children, his fatal flaw being never figuring out or exploiting their motivations. I think part of the problem with the subsequent 2 books is Martin killed off too many of the most interesting characters in this one without replacing them with equally interesting people.

Spoiler

Bit late to the party, but I was just talking about this with a friend.Tywin gets far too much credit for supposed cunning in the larger chess game. He's certainly written in a way that's supposed to make the readers see him as a masterful planner, I agree. However, if it were not for the Lannisters' apparently inexhaustible armies (poor writing) and a handful of instances of unexpected good fortune, he wouldn't have gotten anywhere.How was Tywin to know that Robb would marry Jeyne Westerling and incur the wrath (not wroth, ffs) of Walder Frey? Could he have predicted that Renly would be killed by a magical shadow? As the cards were dealt at the beginning of the conflict, Tywin had zero major allies while everyone else vied for the Iron Throne. Robb commanded the north and had the support of the riverlands. Renly had the Tyrells on his side. Tywin simply took advantage of the gifts presented to him on a silver platter. Overrated.

Spoiler

Tywin arranged for the marriage via the Westerling mother. This is revealed in a Jamie chapter.

Spoiler

also, through the arranged marriage of his daughter, he already had the Iron Throne.

 

[Gr00vus]

Just about at the end of Storm of Swords again. I had forgotten just how full of slimy back stabbers Westeros is.

Spoiler

Man the Westerlings/Spicers did a number on the Starks. And Tywin was cunning as ####. I'm almost sad we don't get to see more of him in operation after this book. Dude was a master manipulator - except when it came to his own children, his fatal flaw being never figuring out or exploiting their motivations. I think part of the problem with the subsequent 2 books is Martin killed off too many of the most interesting characters in this one without replacing them with equally interesting people.

Spoiler

Bit late to the party, but I was just talking about this with a friend.Tywin gets far too much credit for supposed cunning in the larger chess game. He's certainly written in a way that's supposed to make the readers see him as a masterful planner, I agree. However, if it were not for the Lannisters' apparently inexhaustible armies (poor writing) and a handful of instances of unexpected good fortune, he wouldn't have gotten anywhere.How was Tywin to know that Robb would marry Jeyne Westerling and incur the wrath (not wroth, ffs) of Walder Frey? Could he have predicted that Renly would be killed by a magical shadow? As the cards were dealt at the beginning of the conflict, Tywin had zero major allies while everyone else vied for the Iron Throne. Robb commanded the north and had the support of the riverlands. Renly had the Tyrells on his side. Tywin simply took advantage of the gifts presented to him on a silver platter. Overrated.

Spoiler

Tywin arranged for the marriage via the Westerling mother. This is revealed in a Jamie chapter.

Spoiler

also, through the arranged marriage of his daughter, he already had the Iron Throne.

Spoiler

Not only did Tywin arrange the whole Westerling marriage, but you have to assume that he drew/drove Robb in that direction physically by "losing" battles, re-arranging where his armies were to appear weak on the direct path to the Westerling seat, etc. Brilliant.Sure he has the benefit of seeming unlimited wealth, but there are plenty of other houses who seem to have near as much wealth without really pulling the strings because they're not led by people as ruthless/cunning/capable. Old lady Olenna Tyrell seems to be close in terms of her characteristics, but she's limited because she's a woman in that society.Tywin's literally fatal flaw was resenting/not understanding/underestimating Tyrion because he was physically a misfit (and caused Tywin's wife to die in childbirth).

 

[sn0mm1s]

Just about at the end of Storm of Swords again. I had forgotten just how full of slimy back stabbers Westeros is.

Spoiler

Man the Westerlings/Spicers did a number on the Starks. And Tywin was cunning as ####. I'm almost sad we don't get to see more of him in operation after this book. Dude was a master manipulator - except when it came to his own children, his fatal flaw being never figuring out or exploiting their motivations. I think part of the problem with the subsequent 2 books is Martin killed off too many of the most interesting characters in this one without replacing them with equally interesting people.

Spoiler

Bit late to the party, but I was just talking about this with a friend.Tywin gets far too much credit for supposed cunning in the larger chess game. He's certainly written in a way that's supposed to make the readers see him as a masterful planner, I agree. However, if it were not for the Lannisters' apparently inexhaustible armies (poor writing) and a handful of instances of unexpected good fortune, he wouldn't have gotten anywhere.How was Tywin to know that Robb would marry Jeyne Westerling and incur the wrath (not wroth, ffs) of Walder Frey? Could he have predicted that Renly would be killed by a magical shadow? As the cards were dealt at the beginning of the conflict, Tywin had zero major allies while everyone else vied for the Iron Throne. Robb commanded the north and had the support of the riverlands. Renly had the Tyrells on his side. Tywin simply took advantage of the gifts presented to him on a silver platter. Overrated.

Spoiler

Tywin arranged for the marriage via the Westerling mother. This is revealed in a Jamie chapter.

Spoiler

There is no evidence for that at all. Tywin didn't arrange for the wedding.I wouldn't considered the Lannister armies examples of poor writing though - there were only two mentioned IIRC. The first army (which was split between Jaime and Tywin) and then the second host being raised which was attacked by Robb Stark.

 

[Abrantes]

Spoiler

Not only did Tywin arrange the whole Westerling marriage, but you have to assume that he drew/drove Robb in that direction physically by "losing" battles, re-arranging where his armies were to appear weak on the direct path to the Westerling seat, etc. Brilliant.

Sure he has the benefit of seeming unlimited wealth, but there are plenty of other houses who seem to have near as much wealth without really pulling the strings because they're not led by people as ruthless/cunning/capable. Old lady Olenna Tyrell seems to be close in terms of her characteristics, but she's limited because she's a woman in that society.

Tywin's literally fatal flaw was resenting/not understanding/underestimating Tyrion because he was physically a misfit (and caused Tywin's wife to die in childbirth).

Spoiler

The idea that Tywin would lose battles to seem weaker when I can't remember anything along those lines in any book is far more assumption than I can stomach, but to each his own.

You dismiss the absurdity of the Lannisters' wealth/armies far more casually than I do. Considering the lands they own and their bannermen, there's no way they should be able to maintain the stronghold they do after going through as many battles as they did. The other houses aren't pulling the strings because Martin doesn't want it that way. The timeline of the war certainly doesn't make me see Tywin as the sort of strategic mastermind that would justify the Lannisters holding that much more power than the others.

As far as the the Westerlings and Tywin Lannister are concerned, I don't remember them spelling out whether the pact was made before or after Jeyne and Robb actually got together, but admittedly, I haven't read A Feast for Crows in a while. Regardless, the bigger issue in my book was his standing at the beginning of the war of the five kings, and how such a cunning mastermind could allow himself to be caught in that position.

 

[sn0mm1s]

Do we still need spoilers in this thread?

 

[Sand]

Any projections on when we see the Winds of Winter?

2015 if lucky.

I keep thinking the HBO deal will lubricate the schedule a bit. If this is seven books, then he needs to be through the last two in four years.

 

[Abrantes]

Any projections on when we see the Winds of Winter?

2015 if lucky.

I keep thinking the HBO deal will lubricate the schedule a bit. If this is seven books, then he needs to be through the last two in four years.

The bigger complication is if the next two books aren't the last.

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

Just about at the end of Storm of Swords again. I had forgotten just how full of slimy back stabbers Westeros is.

Spoiler

Man the Westerlings/Spicers did a number on the Starks. And Tywin was cunning as ####. I'm almost sad we don't get to see more of him in operation after this book. Dude was a master manipulator - except when it came to his own children, his fatal flaw being never figuring out or exploiting their motivations. I think part of the problem with the subsequent 2 books is Martin killed off too many of the most interesting characters in this one without replacing them with equally interesting people.

Spoiler

Bit late to the party, but I was just talking about this with a friend.Tywin gets far too much credit for supposed cunning in the larger chess game. He's certainly written in a way that's supposed to make the readers see him as a masterful planner, I agree. However, if it were not for the Lannisters' apparently inexhaustible armies (poor writing) and a handful of instances of unexpected good fortune, he wouldn't have gotten anywhere.

How was Tywin to know that Robb would marry Jeyne Westerling and incur the wrath (not wroth, ffs) of Walder Frey? Could he have predicted that Renly would be killed by a magical shadow? As the cards were dealt at the beginning of the conflict, Tywin had zero major allies while everyone else vied for the Iron Throne. Robb commanded the north and had the support of the riverlands. Renly had the Tyrells on his side. Tywin simply took advantage of the gifts presented to him on a silver platter. Overrated.

Spoiler

Tywin arranged for the marriage via the Westerling mother. This is revealed in a Jamie chapter.

Spoiler

There is no evidence for that at all. Tywin didn't arrange for the wedding.

I wouldn't considered the Lannister armies examples of poor writing though - there were only two mentioned IIRC. The first army (which was split between Jaime and Tywin) and then the second host being raised which was attacked by Robb Stark.

you must have missed it.

 

[sn0mm1s]

you must have missed it.

I only "missed it" because it isn't there. There is plenty of evidence he was communicating with her mother *after* the event which might be what you are thinking of.

 

[Abrantes]

you must have missed it.

I only "missed it" because it isn't there. There is plenty of evidence he was communicating with her mother *after* the event which might be what you are thinking of.

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

you must have missed it.

I only "missed it" because it isn't there. There is plenty of evidence he was communicating with her mother *after* the event which might be what you are thinking of.

okay...it's not there for the slow witted, but...it's there.

Spoiler

From ASOS, Tyrion III

"A maid of sixteen years, named Jeyne," said Ser Kevan. "Lord Gawen once suggested her to me for Willem or Martyn, but I had to refuse him. Gawen is a good man, but his wife is Sybell Spicer. He should never have wed her. The Westerlings always did have more honor than sense. Lady Sybell's grandfather was a trader in saffron and pepper, almost as lowborn as that smuggler Stannis keeps. And the grandmother was some woman he'd brought back from the east. A frightening old crone, supposed to be a priestess. Maegi, they called her. No one could pronounce her real name. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for cures and love potions and the like."

"It would have been kinder to leave her with a ******* in her belly," said Tyrion bluntly. The Westerlings stood to lose everything here; their lands, their castle, their very lives. A Lannister always pays his debts.

"Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter," said Lord Tywin, "and Robb Stark is his father's son."

This Westerling betrayal did not seem to have enraged his father as much as Tyrion would have expected. Lord Tywin did not suffer disloyalty in his vassals. He had extinguished the proud Reynes of Castamere and the ancient Tarbecks of Tarbeck Hall root and branch when he was still half a boy. The singers had even made a rather gloomy song of it. Some years later, when Lord Farman of Faircastle grew truculent, Lord Tywin sent an envoy bearing a lute instead of a letter. But once he'd heard "The Rains of Castamere" echoing through his hall, Lord Farman gave no further trouble. And if the song were not enough, the shattered castles of the Reynes and Tarbecks still stood as mute testimony to the fate that awaited those who chose to scorn the power of Casterly Rock. "The Crag is not so far from Tarbeck Hall and Castamere," Tyrion pointed out. "You'd think the Westerlings might have ridden past and seen the lesson there."

"Mayhaps they have," Lord Tywin said. "They are well aware of Castamere, I promise you."

"Could the Westerlings and Spicers be such great fools as to believe the wolf can defeat the lion?"

Every once in a very long while, Lord Tywin Lannister would actually threaten to smile; he never did, but the threat alone was terrible to behold. "The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than the men who laugh at them," he said ...

Then Jamie ties it up and confirms it in his chapter. More or less

 

[Gr00vus]

Spoiler

Not only did Tywin arrange the whole Westerling marriage, but you have to assume that he drew/drove Robb in that direction physically by "losing" battles, re-arranging where his armies were to appear weak on the direct path to the Westerling seat, etc. Brilliant.

Sure he has the benefit of seeming unlimited wealth, but there are plenty of other houses who seem to have near as much wealth without really pulling the strings because they're not led by people as ruthless/cunning/capable. Old lady Olenna Tyrell seems to be close in terms of her characteristics, but she's limited because she's a woman in that society.

Tywin's literally fatal flaw was resenting/not understanding/underestimating Tyrion because he was physically a misfit (and caused Tywin's wife to die in childbirth).

Spoiler

The idea that Tywin would lose battles to seem weaker when I can't remember anything along those lines in any book is far more assumption than I can stomach, but to each his own.

You dismiss the absurdity of the Lannisters' wealth/armies far more casually than I do. Considering the lands they own and their bannermen, there's no way they should be able to maintain the stronghold they do after going through as many battles as they did. The other houses aren't pulling the strings because Martin doesn't want it that way. The timeline of the war certainly doesn't make me see Tywin as the sort of strategic mastermind that would justify the Lannisters holding that much more power than the others.

As far as the the Westerlings and Tywin Lannister are concerned, I don't remember them spelling out whether the pact was made before or after Jeyne and Robb actually got together, but admittedly, I haven't read A Feast for Crows in a while. Regardless, the bigger issue in my book was his standing at the beginning of the war of the five kings, and how such a cunning mastermind could allow himself to be caught in that position.

Spoiler

Dude owned a seemingly inexhaustible gold mine. Maybe an inexhaustible gold mine is absurd, but that's what Martin set up from the start.

Apart from Jaime losing in the whispering wood, I never got the sense that Tywin lost any of the key parts of the Lannister army in any of the battles. He spent other peoples' troops (like the mountain tribes, the bloody mummers, Gregor's brigands, etc.), but he kept the best part of his army in tact throughout. Robb beat up a bunch of scrubs to get through to the west, not Tywin's core troops.

Also, reread chapters involving Jamie/Tywin and any mentioning Westerlings/Spicers in the 3rd and 4th books - there's no doubt Tywin orchestrated the circumstances by which Robb met Jeyne, their betrothal, the red wedding, etc.

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

GG

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

what is more whacky is Sybell Spicer's mom is that Frog Maggie that ####s with Cersei's brain.