Giants Defensive Ends (1 Viewer)

[redman]

Would somebody please explain to me why the Giants drafted another defensive end, Mathias Kiwanuka, with their top draft pick. They now have by my count four front-line DE's who are starting caliber, at least as projected: Strahan, Umenyiora, Tuck, and Kiwanuka.

Even to the extent that you think Kiwanuka's good value there - and he was - why draft a DE when the front seven of your defense is the strength of it already? Why not look at the good CB and safety prospects out there and not trade up? Or why not look at one of the outstanding OG prospects out there that can help your o-line, which is likely the weakness in that offense?

Isn't this an example of the "best player available" draft strategy being taken to ludicrous ends?

I drafted Justin Tuck last year feeling fairly secure that he'd be the heir apparent to Strahan in a couple of years assuming he developed. He showed a lot of promise last year as a spot player, which only encouraged me. This draft choice really confuses me as to what their plans are.

 

[obxlegends]

Would somebody please explain to me why the Giants drafted another defensive end, Mathias Kiwanuka, with their top draft pick.  They now have by my count four front-line DE's who are starting caliber, at least as projected: Strahan, Umenyiora, Tuck, and Kiwanuka. 

1. Strahan is 35 years old.2. Pass rushing defensive ends are rare.

3. Protects them in case of injury and/or cap casualty. Maybe they don't want to continue paying an aging Strahan much more through 2006.

I also heard this on the radio today and would have to agree. If they had drafted Moss in the 1st and Kiwanuka in the 2nd then all this complaining would not be taking place.

 

[Weiner Dog]

Kiwanuka is also a major work-in-process. He will not be NFL ready for at least two years. He rushes too high and doesn't have enough moves in his arsenal...yet.

Once Kiwanuka develops, watch out. This guy was a consensus Top-10 pick prior to the '05 draft (...not to be confused with '06 draft). He decided to stay in school, but a knee injury and subpar play dropped him to the end of the 1st.

It will take patience with this guy. Is he worth a roster spot for the next 800 days?? That's for each owner to decide. I will say this...if Strahan was on my dynasty IDP roster, I would take a hard look at acquiring Kiwanuka.

 

[redman]

I just look at Strahan and I see a guy who's old by NFL DE standards but who still appears to be at the top of his game with no signs of slowing down. He's also on a team that is on the verge of making a deep playoff run, which is further incentive to stick around. If we use Bruce Smith as a sort of model, Strahan could have as many as six more years left in the league. Are the Giants really going to be that willing to cut ties to the guy who is arguably their most famous and best D-lineman of all time before he retires?

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Tom Coughlin really seems to love players from Boston College

 

[houndirish]

Giant fan here who's OK with the Kiwi pick. It was definitely a "George Young Best Player Available" pick. I was OK with the trade back. Unless they were considering a wideout in round 1 the Pittsburgh deal made a lot of sense. I have an awful lot of respect for Kiwi's game. He was a higher rated end prospect than Strahan, Osi or Tuck coming out. I'm convinced he'll be an absolute terror. They don't need to rush him either. He can just hang out with Strahan and learn the nuances of the game. Yes they had other needs to fill but it would've been a reach to address some of these at that slot. There wasn't a Defensive Tackle worth drafting at 25 or 32. You could make an argument for an Offensive Tackle. I wouldn't contest it much as I thought they really needed to add a quality prospect at that spot in this draft. But I wasn't high on the corners available at 25 or 32.

I honestly had a bigger problem with them trading up to get the smurf than trading down and taking Kiwanuka.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

There wasn't a Defensive Tackle worth drafting at 25 or 32.

The Giants certainly sound like the reason the Bills traded up for McCargo.

 

[redman]

Giant fan here who's OK with the Kiwi pick.  It was definitely a "George Young Best Player Available" pick.  I was OK with the trade back.  Unless they were considering a wideout in round 1 the Pittsburgh deal made a lot of sense.  I have an awful lot of respect for Kiwi's game.  He was a higher rated end prospect than Strahan, Osi or Tuck coming out.  I'm convinced he'll be an absolute terror.  They don't need to rush him either.  He can just hang out with Strahan and learn the nuances of the game.  Yes they had other needs to fill but it would've been a reach to address some of these at that slot.  There wasn't a Defensive Tackle worth drafting at 25 or 32.  You could make an argument for an Offensive Tackle.  I wouldn't contest it much as I thought they really needed to add a quality prospect at that spot in this draft.  But I wasn't high on the corners available at 25 or 32.

I honestly had a bigger problem with them trading up to get the smurf than trading down and taking Kiwanuka.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not critical of the theoretical value of of Kiwanuka at that draft spot. It just seems like he's less valuable to them than he would be to a team with an actual need at that spot. Most teams have at most 1 legit pass rushing DE, and a few have 2; the Giants, assuming that MK develops, have 4 now! What do you think this does to Justin Tuck's value?

I'm also shocked with the Moss pick although he too could turn into nice value for them. The could use more speed at the WR spot.

However, the Giants arguably have the weakest O-line in the division, so passing on some of the excellent OG's with that second pick is a bit strange to me.

 

[cracKer]

There wasn't a Defensive Tackle worth drafting at 25 or 32.

The Giants certainly sound like the reason the Bills traded up for McCargo.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This sounds about right from what I've read on the Giants MB. McCargo definitely would've filled a need better than Kiwanuka, but MK should be ready to perform when DE becomes a need. Although Umenyiora was a second round pick, maybe they have visions of Kiwanuka developing into a similar player. Maybe they're not as high on Tuck as many would think.

 

[Rovers]

I have read that Tuck may go to tackle, especially in passing situations.

 

[ThisGuy]

Strahan is long in the tooth and Kiwi needs at least one year of seasoning before he can make an impact. Personally, I would have liked to see them get another young corner, but Will Pete isn't 100% out and I like Frank Walker. Webster is starting and Madison is on the other side with McQuarters for depth. At Safety, Wilson and Demps should be solid for a few years and the staff is in love with James Butler. The DB's are deeper than most think.

On offense, the line came together pretty well. Petitgout is on his way out and the Giants will groom Whimper to eventually take that spot over. I love the Moss pick. He gives them yet another weapon!

 

[womb]

No matter how decent a pick and how helpful he may be for NYG, from an IDP fantasy point of view this can not be good news for Osi and Strahan owners for the time being. Noone likes a DE rotation.

 

[redman]

I have read that Tuck may go to tackle, especially in passing situations.

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[houndirish]

Giant fan here who's OK with the Kiwi pick.  It was definitely a "George Young Best Player Available" pick.  I was OK with the trade back.  Unless they were considering a wideout in round 1 the Pittsburgh deal made a lot of sense.  I have an awful lot of respect for Kiwi's game.  He was a higher rated end prospect than Strahan, Osi or Tuck coming out.  I'm convinced he'll be an absolute terror.  They don't need to rush him either.  He can just hang out with Strahan and learn the nuances of the game.  Yes they had other needs to fill but it would've been a reach to address some of these at that slot.  There wasn't a Defensive Tackle worth drafting at 25 or 32.  You could make an argument for an Offensive Tackle.  I wouldn't contest it much as I thought they really needed to add a quality prospect at that spot in this draft.  But I wasn't high on the corners available at 25 or 32.

I honestly had a bigger problem with them trading up to get the smurf than trading down and taking Kiwanuka.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not critical of the theoretical value of of Kiwanuka at that draft spot. It just seems like he's less valuable to them than he would be to a team with an actual need at that spot. Most teams have at most 1 legit pass rushing DE, and a few have 2; the Giants, assuming that MK develops, have 4 now! What do you think this does to Justin Tuck's value?

I'm also shocked with the Moss pick although he too could turn into nice value for them. The could use more speed at the WR spot.

However, the Giants arguably have the weakest O-line in the division, so passing on some of the excellent OG's with that second pick is a bit strange to me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For fantasy purposes Tuck's value takes a major nosedive. I've heard the same rumor of Tuck possibly being moved inside although I've only heard it amongst fans. To my knowledge there hasn't been any news from the team that this is the case. Training camp will go a long way towards determining how the players will be rotated but I don't see a situation where Tuck rots on the bench. He played too well in limited opportunities last year. Kiwi likely gets the least playing time of the bunch this year as he still needs to bulk up and add strength but I see him, not Tuck, as the eventual successor to Strahan's strong side end position.Of all the positions on the Giants O-Line, Guard is where they're deepest and arguably most talented. I would've been shocked if they went after a Guard in the draft. I also tend to think the Giants have every bit as good of a line as Dallas and Washington.

The Moss pick didn't surprise me. There were rumors Accorsi might even take him in the first.

 

[houndirish]

There wasn't a Defensive Tackle worth drafting at 25 or 32.

The Giants certainly sound like the reason the Bills traded up for McCargo.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If that's the case, I tend to think Buffalo made a major mistake. I haven't heard a word about McCargo from any of the Giants draft personnel. Yes the fans seemed desperate to add a DT early but I don't think NY had McCargo on their first round radar, despite the need at the position.

 

[Rovers]

Giant fan here who's OK with the Kiwi pick.  It was definitely a "George Young Best Player Available" pick.  I was OK with the trade back.  Unless they were considering a wideout in round 1 the Pittsburgh deal made a lot of sense.  I have an awful lot of respect for Kiwi's game.  He was a higher rated end prospect than Strahan, Osi or Tuck coming out.  I'm convinced he'll be an absolute terror.  They don't need to rush him either.  He can just hang out with Strahan and learn the nuances of the game.  Yes they had other needs to fill but it would've been a reach to address some of these at that slot.  There wasn't a Defensive Tackle worth drafting at 25 or 32.  You could make an argument for an Offensive Tackle.  I wouldn't contest it much as I thought they really needed to add a quality prospect at that spot in this draft.  But I wasn't high on the corners available at 25 or 32.

I honestly had a bigger problem with them trading up to get the smurf than trading down and taking Kiwanuka.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not critical of the theoretical value of of Kiwanuka at that draft spot. It just seems like he's less valuable to them than he would be to a team with an actual need at that spot. Most teams have at most 1 legit pass rushing DE, and a few have 2; the Giants, assuming that MK develops, have 4 now! What do you think this does to Justin Tuck's value?

I'm also shocked with the Moss pick although he too could turn into nice value for them. The could use more speed at the WR spot.

However, the Giants arguably have the weakest O-line in the division, so passing on some of the excellent OG's with that second pick is a bit strange to me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For fantasy purposes Tuck's value takes a major nosedive. I've heard the same rumor of Tuck possibly being moved inside although I've only heard it amongst fans. To my knowledge there hasn't been any news from the team that this is the case. Training camp will go a long way towards determining how the players will be rotated but I don't see a situation where Tuck rots on the bench. He played too well in limited opportunities last year. Kiwi likely gets the least playing time of the bunch this year as he still needs to bulk up and add strength but I see him, not Tuck, as the eventual successor to Strahan's strong side end position.Of all the positions on the Giants O-Line, Guard is where they're deepest and arguably most talented. I would've been shocked if they went after a Guard in the draft. I also tend to think the Giants have every bit as good of a line as Dallas and Washington.

The Moss pick didn't surprise me. There were rumors Accorsi might even take him in the first.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Tuck rumor that I read wasn't a "fan-based" rumor.... it was from a fairly credible source, which I can't recall at the moment... either a NY area beat reporter or some on-line draft report. It might have even been from Acorsi himself on 1050 ESPN radio.... but it was something I put some stock in, and remembered, just in case someone tried to trade Tuck to me! I'll see if I can find a link or something.

 

[Pick]

I have read that Tuck may go to tackle, especially in passing situations.

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[Rovers]

This comes from the Giants site.... it was either Coughlin or the DC..... lol, I've already forgotten, but the Tuck rumor has some legs...

One of those options could be to play Kiwanuka off the line.

“At the combine he worked out as a linebacker as well,” Reese said. “It’s not out of the question for this guy to stand up and play some kind of outside linebacker. Put them all in there, put him, Tuck, Osi, Strahan in there and let them all rush. Who says you can’t do that? On a passing down put them all in there and let them rush.”

This isn't the source I originally read, or heard, but yeah, it seems they want to use Tuck at tackle in situational pass rush downs. The Kiwi pick tells me they don't see Tuck as their future replacement for Strahan.

 

[redman]

I have read that Tuck may go to tackle, especially in passing situations.

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[Bizkiteer]

For what it's worth, I think Strahan has lasted this long only because he effectiveness was never due to his speed. He's always used strength and brains to disrupt the offense. If he had been a speed rusher, he'd have been done 2 years ago.

 

[redman]

For what it's worth, I think Strahan has lasted this long only because he effectiveness was never due to his speed.  He's always used strength and brains to disrupt the offense.  If he had been a speed rusher, he'd have been done 2 years ago.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed. In addition (and related to your points above) like Bruce Smith later in his career he's increased his effectiveness against the run, which has further helped him to retain value.

 

[Bizkiteer]

For what it's worth, I think Strahan has lasted this long only because he effectiveness was never due to his speed.  He's always used strength and brains to disrupt the offense.  If he had been a speed rusher, he'd have been done 2 years ago.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed. In addition (and related to your points above) like Bruce Smith later in his career he's increased his effectiveness against the run, which has further helped him to retain value.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree...even w/ an inflated contract that was past his prime.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

There wasn't a Defensive Tackle worth drafting at 25 or 32.

The Giants certainly sound like the reason the Bills traded up for McCargo.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If that's the case, I tend to think Buffalo made a major mistake. I haven't heard a word about McCargo from any of the Giants draft personnel. Yes the fans seemed desperate to add a DT early but I don't think NY had McCargo on their first round radar, despite the need at the position.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

maybe the Giants draft personnel kept it very quiet. who knows though.nobody had any clue the Broncos wanted Jay Cutler until they took him.

 

[redman]

For what it's worth, I think Strahan has lasted this long only because he effectiveness was never due to his speed.  He's always used strength and brains to disrupt the offense.  If he had been a speed rusher, he'd have been done 2 years ago.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed. In addition (and related to your points above) like Bruce Smith later in his career he's increased his effectiveness against the run, which has further helped him to retain value.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree...even w/ an inflated contract that was past his prime.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, but we 'Skins fans don't like to talk about that.

 

[houndirish]

Great Blue North had an excellent article on the Giants draft. It basically talked about how the Giants, like many teams, have a pyramid draft board where players are assigned a certain level. When NY went on the clock at 25 they had Kiwanuka alone as the only prospect at his respective level. They had a couple of other players they liked but they were the next rung down. When Pittsburgh came calling looking to move up the Giants jumped at the chance to get the extra picks while moving only 7 slots back. Well 7 picks later, Kiwi was still available. At that point Accorsi said ... can we use this guy? The question apparently got a resounding yes and they made the pick. Then they parlayed the trade picks into a move up to get the player they really wanted in Sinorice Moss.

 

[The Sandman]

No matter how decent a pick and how helpful he may be for NYG, from an IDP fantasy point of view this can not be good news for Osi and Strahan owners for the time being. Noone likes a DE rotation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Every NFL team has a DE rotation. Keeps the starters fresh for the 4th quarter. This pick wont effect either Osi or Strahan, and like others have said Strahan will be retired before Kiwi is even ready to contribute as a starter.

 

[Rovers]

TUCK: I'LL 'END' UP JUST FINE

By PAUL SCHWARTZ

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May 10, 2006 -- The Giants went with the theory that you cannot have too many pass rushers when they selected Mathias Kiwanuka in the first round of the NFL Draft.

Before they made the pick, Justin Tuck might have agreed.

Now, the second-year defensive end is not so sure.

"I think we got enough right now," Tuck said yesterday.

He smiled faintly as he spoke, knowing well that the addition of Kiwanuka means a potential diminution of his playing time.

The surprising thing was not that the Giants deemed Kiwanuka worthy of the final pick in the first round (they traded down to No. 32 to get him), but that they added him to an already well-stocked stable of defensive ends.

Michael Strahan and Osi Umenyiora are Pro Bowlers and double-digit sack artists, and in Tuck the Giants have a promising sophomore who contributed as a rookie and looks to be a keeper.

The Giants want Kiwanuka - Boston College's all-time sack leader - to immediately get on the field in some specialized role, and if he does, there's no way that won't adversely affect Tuck's playing time. Even if Tuck is pushed inside to tackle in certain pass-rushing situations, it is difficult to view this development as a positive reflection on him.

"After the pick came up, I got called from a couple of coaches letting me know it doesn't affect me," Tuck said, displaying no apparent acrimony. "It wasn't a reflection on how they view me as a player. I don't view this pick as a me-and-him issue."

That the Giants went for defense in the first round surprised no one; that they went for another end, however, caught many off guard.

"They have their reasons for doing things; I might not understand it, but they have their own reasons and you got to live with it," said Umenyiora, who is close with Tuck. "I'm not going to question their judgment. Everybody laughed at them when they drafted me."

Still, he admitted, "It looks like it might stunt somebody's growth."

Tuck sounds as if he's up to the challenge.

"I can see why we picked him," Tuck said of Kiwanuka. "Great athlete, and to get him at No. 32, it could be a steal. He's going to improve our defense, simple as that.

"It's competition," Tuck added. "Hopefully, we can bring out the best in each other."

paul.schwartz@nypost.com