gluehands (1 Viewer)

[fatness]

Lowest % of drops last year, per Bengals.com article.

1. T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Bengals: 78 catches, three drops, 2.6 percent2. Marvin Harrison, Colts: 82 catches, four drops, 3.2 percent3. Bobby Engram, Seahawks: 67 catches, four drops, 4.3 percent4. Jason Witten, Cowboys: 66 catches, four drops, 4.5 percent5. Steve Smith, Panthers: 103 catches, seven drops, 4.7 percent6. Scottie Vines, Lions: 40 catches, three drops, 4.8 percent7. Tony Gonzalez, Chiefs: 78 catches, six drops, 4.9 percent8. Eric Parker, Chargers: 57 catches, four drops, 4.9 percent9. Keyshawn Johnson, Cowboys: 71 catches, six drops, 5.1 percent10. Joe Jurevicius, Seahawks: 55 catches, four drops, 5.1 percent

 

[Polish Hammer]

Love seeing Engram at 3 there....one of my personal favorites. Parker at 8 is a surprise to me. One guy I am touting as a sleeper is Vines....very happy to see him up there. I wonder how this jives with FBG target/reception info??

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Love seeing Engram at 3 there....one of my personal favorites. Parker at 8 is a surprise to me. One guy I am touting as a sleeper is Vines....very happy to see him up there. I wonder how this jives with FBG target/reception info??

Parker has hands of glue, if he can get it, he gets it.I'm surprised he's not #1.

 

[Polish Hammer]

I'll be honest, I guess I really didn't know much about Parker. Saying he was a surprise was more due to my lack of knowledge than my belief in a lack of his talent.

 

[BassNBrew]

5. Steve Smith, Panthers: 103 catches, seven drops, 4.7 percent
Where's TO? Ratio Randy?

 

[stedman]

According to Stats.com

Moss had 124 targets and only 2 drops =1.6%. He caught 48.4%.

TO has 92 targets and 5 drops= 5.4%. He caught 51.1%

Houshmandzadeh had 115 targets and 1 drop. .87%. He caught 67.85

Looks like determining what is a catchable ball is subject to opinion.

 

[Jon_Moore]

Lowest % of drops last year, per Bengals.com article.

1. T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Bengals: 78 catches, three drops, 2.6 percent

2. Marvin Harrison, Colts: 82 catches, four drops, 3.2 percent

3. Bobby Engram, Seahawks: 67 catches, four drops, 4.3 percent

4. Jason Witten, Cowboys: 66 catches, four drops, 4.5 percent

5. Steve Smith, Panthers: 103 catches, seven drops, 4.7 percent

6. Scottie Vines, Lions: 40 catches, three drops, 4.8 percent

7. Tony Gonzalez, Chiefs: 78 catches, six drops, 4.9 percent

8. Eric Parker, Chargers: 57 catches, four drops, 4.9 percent

9. Keyshawn Johnson, Cowboys: 71 catches, six drops, 5.1 percent

10. Joe Jurevicius, Seahawks: 55 catches, four drops, 5.1 percent

Two from Seattle

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

Looks like determining what is a catchable ball is subject to opinion.

It's easy to introduce a bias into "normal effort".You expect Randy to make certain catches with normal effort that you subconsciously wouldn't expect other WRs to make.

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

Love seeing Engram at 3 there....one of my personal favorites. Parker at 8 is a surprise to me. One guy I am touting as a sleeper is Vines....very happy to see him up there. I wonder how this jives with FBG target/reception info??

Fastest way to see catches/target is here... Last column.http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr.php

 

[massraider]

Joyner's numbers don't jibe at all with STATS Inc., he lists every pass going to some guys as catchable, and others have double digit uncatchable.

He also doesn't explain what happened to all the catchable passes that weren't dropped.

 

[MLBrandow]

Joyner's numbers don't jibe at all with STATS Inc., he lists every pass going to some guys as catchable, and others have double digit uncatchable.

He also doesn't explain what happened to all the catchable passes that weren't dropped.

Yes he does. You just didn't read the article.Joyner watches every play of every game and breaks down every pass with the same criteria so as to eliminate most of the subjectivity in recording these types of stats.

He uses primary sources to get his stats, the actual football games, rather than getting them second hand from another source.

I think the more telling stat is the one he also talked about.... that 3 and 10 are Seahawks...

 

[Chase Stuart]

Lowest % of drops last year, per Bengals.com article.

1. T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Bengals: 78 catches, three drops, 2.6 percent

2. Marvin Harrison, Colts: 82 catches, four drops, 3.2 percent

3. Bobby Engram, Seahawks: 67 catches, four drops, 4.3 percent

4. Jason Witten, Cowboys: 66 catches, four drops, 4.5 percent

5. Steve Smith, Panthers: 103 catches, seven drops, 4.7 percent

6. Scottie Vines, Lions: 40 catches, three drops, 4.8 percent

7. Tony Gonzalez, Chiefs: 78 catches, six drops, 4.9 percent

8. Eric Parker, Chargers: 57 catches, four drops, 4.9 percent

9. Keyshawn Johnson, Cowboys: 71 catches, six drops, 5.1 percent

10. Joe Jurevicius, Seahawks: 55 catches, four drops, 5.1 percent

Two from Seattle

Things change pretty quickly, eh Jon_Moore?

 

[MLBrandow]

More interesting is that he goes on to break down drops by rookies, and shows that although Reggie Brown and Mark Clayton had I think 9 drops each, half of Clayton's "drops" were poorly thrown balls, whereas Brown's were simply butterfingers.

I really wish we could steal this man's statbook. He spends all summer in a film room watching every play of every regular season game like 20 times.

 

[Big Score]

According to Stats.com

Moss had 124 targets and only 2 drops =1.6%. He caught 48.4%.

TO has 92 targets and 5 drops= 5.4%. He caught 51.1%

Houshmandzadeh had 115 targets and 1 drop. .87%. He caught 67.85

Looks like determining what is a catchable ball is subject to opinion.

If you notice, the first post compares drops to actual catches, to arrive at the %You're comparing drops to targets, which is not the same.

To show the difference between the two.

Moss caught 60 & dropped 2 = 3.33%

TO caught 47 & dropped 5 = 10.17%

Houshmandzadeh caught 78 & dropped 1 = 1.11%

 

[There it is]

Lowest % of drops last year, per Bengals.com article.

1. T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Bengals: 78 catches, three drops, 2.6 percent

2. Marvin Harrison, Colts: 82 catches, four drops, 3.2 percent

3. Bobby Engram, Seahawks: 67 catches, four drops, 4.3 percent

4. Jason Witten, Cowboys: 66 catches, four drops, 4.5 percent

5. Steve Smith, Panthers: 103 catches, seven drops, 4.7 percent

6. Scottie Vines, Lions: 40 catches, three drops, 4.8 percent

7. Tony Gonzalez, Chiefs: 78 catches, six drops, 4.9 percent

8. Eric Parker, Chargers: 57 catches, four drops, 4.9 percent

9. Keyshawn Johnson, Cowboys: 71 catches, six drops, 5.1 percent

10. Joe Jurevicius, Seahawks: 55 catches, four drops, 5.1 percent

Two from Seattle

Things change pretty quickly, eh Jon_Moore?

Thanks. I look for this every year. Ever since J had it in an e-mail once, awhile ago.Seems like Engram is always on it. I know Joe Pa loved him.

EDIT: Chase I can't believe that you failed to mention that both Engram and JJ are Penn Staters.

 

[JohnnyU]

Fred Biletnikoff He used to run down the sidelines and didn't have to turn for the ball, it would just stick to his helmet, TD Biletnikoff !! I never seen anyone wear so much stickem' as him. I believe the stuff was outlawed because of Biletnikoff. I know this has nothing to do with this thread, but when you mentioned best hands, it made me think of Freddy B. Even without the stickem', Biletnikoff probably had the best hands in the history of the game.

Sorry for the hijack

 

[GroveDiesel]

Lowest % of drops last year, per Bengals.com article.

1. T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Bengals: 78 catches, three drops, 2.6 percent

2. Marvin Harrison, Colts: 82 catches, four drops, 3.2 percent

3. Bobby Engram, Seahawks: 67 catches, four drops, 4.3 percent

4. Jason Witten, Cowboys: 66 catches, four drops, 4.5 percent

5. Steve Smith, Panthers: 103 catches, seven drops, 4.7 percent

6. Scottie Vines, Lions: 40 catches, three drops, 4.8 percent

7. Tony Gonzalez, Chiefs: 78 catches, six drops, 4.9 percent

8. Eric Parker, Chargers: 57 catches, four drops, 4.9 percent

9. Keyshawn Johnson, Cowboys: 71 catches, six drops, 5.1 percent

10. Joe Jurevicius, Seahawks: 55 catches, four drops, 5.1 percent

Two from Seattle

And that was probably one of the major reasons that the Seahawks ended up in the Super Bowl instead of as a disappointment again. They had plenty of talent in previous years, but all of those dropped passes killed them game after game after game.

 

[SSOG]

Love seeing Engram at 3 there....one of my personal favorites. Parker at 8 is a surprise to me. One guy I am touting as a sleeper is Vines....very happy to see him up there. I wonder how this jives with FBG target/reception info??

Football Outsiders has been pimping Engram for 3 years now. They call him Bobby "The First Down Machine" Engram, because in 2003 he was far and away the #1 WR in the entire NFL at converting 3rd-downs.

More interesting is that he goes on to break down drops by rookies, and shows that although Reggie Brown and Mark Clayton had I think 9 drops each, half of Clayton's "drops" were poorly thrown balls, whereas Brown's were simply butterfingers.

I really wish we could steal this man's statbook. He spends all summer in a film room watching every play of every regular season game like 20 times.

Last year, he published and sold the statbook. I'd assume he'd do the same thing again this season, but I could be wrong.

 

[Kleck]

Lowest % of drops last year, per Bengals.com article.

1. T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Bengals: 78 catches, three drops, 2.6 percent

2. Marvin Harrison, Colts: 82 catches, four drops, 3.2 percent

3. Bobby Engram, Seahawks: 67 catches, four drops, 4.3 percent

4. Jason Witten, Cowboys: 66 catches, four drops, 4.5 percent

5. Steve Smith, Panthers: 103 catches, seven drops, 4.7 percent

6. Scottie Vines, Lions: 40 catches, three drops, 4.8 percent

7. Tony Gonzalez, Chiefs: 78 catches, six drops, 4.9 percent

8. Eric Parker, Chargers: 57 catches, four drops, 4.9 percent

9. Keyshawn Johnson, Cowboys: 71 catches, six drops, 5.1 percent

10. Joe Jurevicius, Seahawks: 55 catches, four drops, 5.1 percent

Two from Seattle

See ya Koren. Enjoy Viking fans.

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

Lowest % of drops last year, per Bengals.com article.

1. T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Bengals: 78 catches, three drops, 2.6 percent

2. Marvin Harrison, Colts: 82 catches, four drops, 3.2 percent

3. Bobby Engram, Seahawks: 67 catches, four drops, 4.3 percent

4. Jason Witten, Cowboys: 66 catches, four drops, 4.5 percent

5. Steve Smith, Panthers: 103 catches, seven drops, 4.7 percent

6. Scottie Vines, Lions: 40 catches, three drops, 4.8 percent

7. Tony Gonzalez, Chiefs: 78 catches, six drops, 4.9 percent

8. Eric Parker, Chargers: 57 catches, four drops, 4.9 percent

9. Keyshawn Johnson, Cowboys: 71 catches, six drops, 5.1 percent

10. Joe Jurevicius, Seahawks: 55 catches, four drops, 5.1 percent

Two from Seattle

See ya Koren. Enjoy Viking fans.

59% for him last year in limited action (59% is very good).

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I wonder how this jives with FBG target/reception info??

Fastest way to see catches/target is here... Last column.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr.php

It wouldn't jive at all with receptions/target info. Drops are a small subset of un-caught targets, so the numbers will be very different. (Other categories of un-caught targets are bad throws, passes defended, and passes batted down at the LOS.)

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Lowest % of drops last year, per Bengals.com article.

Here is the correct link.

 

[GRIDIRON ASSASSIN]

Sorry Engram fans, whenever I think of Engram, I think of him dropping that sure TD reception against the Rams in the '04 playoffs.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Lowest % of drops last year, per Bengals.com article.

Here is the correct link.

And here is the link to KC Joyner's article that the Bengals.com article was based on.

 

[Kleck]

Sorry Engram fans, whenever I think of Engram, I think of him dropping that sure TD reception against the Rams in the '04 playoffs.

That's not exactly fair. The ball was rifled from a short distance at his feet while Hasselbeck was moving one direction and Engram was moving the opposite. No statistician in the NFL would record that as a drop. Was it uncatchable? I wouldn't go that far, but it certainly shouldn't count as a drop.

 

[There it is]

Lowest % of drops last year, per Bengals.com article.

1. T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Bengals: 78 catches, three drops, 2.6 percent

2. Marvin Harrison, Colts: 82 catches, four drops, 3.2 percent

3. Bobby Engram, Seahawks: 67 catches, four drops, 4.3 percent

4. Jason Witten, Cowboys: 66 catches, four drops, 4.5 percent

5. Steve Smith, Panthers: 103 catches, seven drops, 4.7 percent

6. Scottie Vines, Lions: 40 catches, three drops, 4.8 percent

7. Tony Gonzalez, Chiefs: 78 catches, six drops, 4.9 percent

8. Eric Parker, Chargers: 57 catches, four drops, 4.9 percent

9. Keyshawn Johnson, Cowboys: 71 catches, six drops, 5.1 percent

10. Joe Jurevicius, Seahawks: 55 catches, four drops, 5.1 percent

Two from Seattle

And that was probably one of the major reasons that the Seahawks ended up in the Super Bowl instead of as a disappointment again. They had plenty of talent in previous years, but all of those dropped passes killed them game after game after game.

Actually I think it was a perfect storm.They had an easy Pass and Rush SOS.

They moved from a strong AFC to a weaker NFC.

They promoted Engram from #3 to starter.

They picked up JJ.

Thay had alot of luck.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Sorry Engram fans, whenever I think of Engram, I think of him dropping that sure TD reception against the Rams in the '04 playoffs.

That's not exactly fair. The ball was rifled from a short distance at his feet while Hasselbeck was moving one direction and Engram was moving the opposite. No statistician in the NFL would record that as a drop. Was it uncatchable? I wouldn't go that far, but it certainly shouldn't count as a drop.

I agree. I remember watching that play and thinking it would have been a great catch. Nice play by Engram to make it that close, although that's not much of a consolation.

 

[fatness]

Lowest % of drops last year, per Bengals.com article.

Here is the correct link.

Thank you.

And here is the link to KC Joyner's article that the Bengals.com article was based on.

"To continue reading this article you must be an Insider."Is there other good information in it you can relay?

 

[anborn]

2 on Carolina next year as well, now that KJ is a panther.

 

[Polish Hammer]

Any info on starting receivers with the most stone-like hands? Who are the top ten in terms of drops?

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Any info on starting receivers with the most stone-like hands? Who are the top ten in terms of drops?

Stone hands receivers, from the KC Joyner articlelayer Team Dropped passes Dropped pass %

Ernest Wilford Jacksonville 13 19.1%

Justin McCareins NY Jets 16 16.7%

Reggie Brown Philadelphia 13 16.3%

Roy Williams Detroit 13 14.6%

Brian Finneran Atlanta 11 14.3%

Erron Kinney Tennessee 10 14.1%

Antonio Bryant Cleveland 16 13.9%

M. Muhammad Chicago 18 13.6%

Greg Lewis Philadelphia 13 12.9%

Eddie Kennison Kansas City 14 12.8%

Randy McMichael Miami 12 12.0%

L.J. Smith Philadelphia 12 11.8%

Alge Crumpler Atlanta 13 11.5%

Mark Clayton Baltimore 9 11.3%

Donte' Stallworth New Orleans 14 11.2%

Chris Chambers Miami 17 11.0%

Todd Heap Baltimore 11 10.4%

Terrell Owens Philadelphia 9 10.2%

Plaxico Burress NY Giants 17 10.2%

Ben Troupe Tennessee 8 10.1%

 

[Doug Drinen]

Question: if two receivers had equal receptions, yards, and TDs last year, but one of them had a very high drop percentage and one of them had a very low drop percentage, which one do you want for this year? [Assuming all else equal.]

I don't know the answer to that question, but my gut says to take the high-drop guy.

 

[Franknbeans]

Question: if two receivers had equal receptions, yards, and TDs last year, but one of them had a very high drop percentage and one of them had a very low drop percentage, which one do you want for this year? [Assuming all else equal.]

I don't know the answer to that question, but my gut says to take the high-drop guy.

depends on their team/QB situation as well. It's not cut and dried.I'd like to see this for 2004 also. A two year average might be nice as well. I know he put out the book last year so he should have data on 2004.

 

[Big Score]

Question: if two receivers had equal receptions, yards, and TDs last year, but one of them had a very high drop percentage and one of them had a very low drop percentage, which one do you want for this year? [Assuming all else equal.]

I don't know the answer to that question, but my gut says to take the high-drop guy.

I would think the opposite.The guy with the high drops, they will still go to him, assuming he is their big play guy.

The guy with the low drops, you would think the Coaches & his QB noticed this and he will probably be getting more targets the next year.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Question: if two receivers had equal receptions, yards, and TDs last year, but one of them had a very high drop percentage and one of them had a very low drop percentage, which one do you want for this year? [Assuming all else equal.]

I don't know the answer to that question, but my gut says to take the high-drop guy.

I would also take the high-drop guy, but I've got no stats to back that up. These comments from Joyner seem to indicate that he'd probably agree:

This chart shows that Ernest Wilford dropped nearly one out of every five passes thrown to him last year. Despite this abysmal drop percentage, Wilford still ranked fourth in the league in total yards per catch attempt. Most of Wilford's drops came on accurate passes, so he has a ton of upside for the upcoming season.

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

Question: if two receivers had equal receptions, yards, and TDs last year, but one of them had a very high drop percentage and one of them had a very low drop percentage, which one do you want for this year? [Assuming all else equal.]

I don't know the answer to that question, but my gut says to take the high-drop guy.

I guess the answer depends on whether hands can be dramatically improved once you come into the NFL.All other things being equal, I go with the low drop guy, because in year N+1 the coaching staff should be more comfortable designing plays for him and the QB should look for him more often and willing to make more iffy throws in his direction.

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

Question: if two receivers had equal receptions, yards, and TDs last year, but one of them had a very high drop percentage and one of them had a very low drop percentage, which one do you want for this year? [Assuming all else equal.]

I don't know the answer to that question, but my gut says to take the high-drop guy.

I guess the answer depends on whether hands can be dramatically improved once you come into the NFL.All other things being equal, I go with the low drop guy, because in year N+1 the coaching staff should be more comfortable designing plays for him and the QB should look for him more often and willing to make more iffy throws in his direction.

One other thing I might add is whether or not they are the best hands on their team. If high drop guy still has the best hands on his team, that leaves room for some luck in year N+1. He's still going to be the most targetted receiver on the team, so if he gets lucky and catches balls he normally would drop, there is some built in upside that would not be accounted for in ADP.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I guess the answer depends on whether hands can be dramatically improved once you come into the NFL.

The first question is how strongly drop-catch ratios in a single season correlate with how good someone's hands are. A guy who dropped 15% of the catchable balls thrown to him last year could very well have better hands than someone who dropped 5% of the catchable balls thrown to him since we're dealing with such small sample sizes.If catchable targets have a stronger year-to-year correlation than do drop-catch ratios, you may want the guy with the hgher catchable targets and higher drop-catch ratio from last year than the guy with the lower catchable targets and lower drop-catch ratio from last year.

 

[GRIDIRON ASSASSIN]

Sorry Engram fans, whenever I think of Engram, I think of him dropping that sure TD reception against the Rams in the '04 playoffs.

That's not exactly fair. The ball was rifled from a short distance at his feet while Hasselbeck was moving one direction and Engram was moving the opposite. No statistician in the NFL would record that as a drop. Was it uncatchable? I wouldn't go that far, but it certainly shouldn't count as a drop.

I agree. I remember watching that play and thinking it would have been a great catch. Nice play by Engram to make it that close, although that's not much of a consolation.

Come on now, the ball hit his hands! It wouldn't have been a 'great' catch, but it would have been a 'clutch' catch. That ball was very catchable.

 

[redman]

5. Steve Smith, Panthers: 103 catches, seven drops, 4.7 percent

Where's TO? Ratio Randy?

TO drops a lot of passes, usually IMHO from trying to make a move with the ball before he's actually caught it. I'm not surprised at all that he's not on this list, and actually I think he'd probably appear on the list of the 10 most frequent droppers.

 

[Franknbeans]

5. Steve Smith, Panthers: 103 catches, seven drops, 4.7 percentWhere's TO?  Ratio Randy?

TO drops a lot of passes, usually IMHO from trying to make a move with the ball before he's actually caught it. I'm not surprised at all that he's not on this list, and actually I think he'd probably appear on the list of the 10 most frequent droppers.

Lot's of Eagles on that one...Player Team Dropped passes Dropped pass %

Ernest Wilford Jacksonville 13 19.1%

Justin McCareins NY Jets 16 16.7%

Reggie Brown Philadelphia 13 16.3%

Roy Williams Detroit 13 14.6%

Brian Finneran Atlanta 11 14.3%

Erron Kinney Tennessee 10 14.1%

Antonio Bryant Cleveland 16 13.9%

M. Muhammad Chicago 18 13.6%

Greg Lewis Philadelphia 13 12.9%

Eddie Kennison Kansas City 14 12.8%

Randy McMichael Miami 12 12.0%

L.J. Smith Philadelphia 12 11.8%

Alge Crumpler Atlanta 13 11.5%

Mark Clayton Baltimore 9 11.3%

Donte' Stallworth New Orleans 14 11.2%

Chris Chambers Miami 17 11.0%

Todd Heap Baltimore 11 10.4%

Terrell Owens Philadelphia 9 10.2%

Plaxico Burress NY Giants 17 10.2%

Ben Troupe Tennessee 8 10.1%

 

[redman]

5. Steve Smith, Panthers: 103 catches, seven drops, 4.7 percentWhere's TO?  Ratio Randy?

TO drops a lot of passes, usually IMHO from trying to make a move with the ball before he's actually caught it. I'm not surprised at all that he's not on this list, and actually I think he'd probably appear on the list of the 10 most frequent droppers.

Lot's of Eagles on that one...Player Team Dropped passes Dropped pass %

Ernest Wilford Jacksonville 13 19.1%

Justin McCareins NY Jets 16 16.7%

Reggie Brown Philadelphia 13 16.3%

Roy Williams Detroit 13 14.6%

Brian Finneran Atlanta 11 14.3%

Erron Kinney Tennessee 10 14.1%

Antonio Bryant Cleveland 16 13.9%

M. Muhammad Chicago 18 13.6%

Greg Lewis Philadelphia 13 12.9%

Eddie Kennison Kansas City 14 12.8%

Randy McMichael Miami 12 12.0%

L.J. Smith Philadelphia 12 11.8%

Alge Crumpler Atlanta 13 11.5%

Mark Clayton Baltimore 9 11.3%

Donte' Stallworth New Orleans 14 11.2%

Chris Chambers Miami 17 11.0%

Todd Heap Baltimore 11 10.4%

Terrell Owens Philadelphia 9 10.2%

Plaxico Burress NY Giants 17 10.2%

Ben Troupe Tennessee 8 10.1%

Well how can that be, what with McNabb delivering the ball so crisply and on target?

 

[Chase Stuart]

5. Steve Smith, Panthers: 103 catches, seven drops, 4.7 percentWhere's TO? Ratio Randy?

TO drops a lot of passes, usually IMHO from trying to make a move with the ball before he's actually caught it. I'm not surprised at all that he's not on this list, and actually I think he'd probably appear on the list of the 10 most frequent droppers.

Lot's of Eagles on that one...Player Team Dropped passes Dropped pass %

Ernest Wilford Jacksonville 13 19.1%

Justin McCareins NY Jets 16 16.7%

Reggie Brown Philadelphia 13 16.3%

Roy Williams Detroit 13 14.6%

Brian Finneran Atlanta 11 14.3%

Erron Kinney Tennessee 10 14.1%

Antonio Bryant Cleveland 16 13.9%

M. Muhammad Chicago 18 13.6%

Greg Lewis Philadelphia 13 12.9%

Eddie Kennison Kansas City 14 12.8%

Randy McMichael Miami 12 12.0%

L.J. Smith Philadelphia 12 11.8%

Alge Crumpler Atlanta 13 11.5%

Mark Clayton Baltimore 9 11.3%

Donte' Stallworth New Orleans 14 11.2%

Chris Chambers Miami 17 11.0%

Todd Heap Baltimore 11 10.4%

Terrell Owens Philadelphia 9 10.2%

Plaxico Burress NY Giants 17 10.2%

Ben Troupe Tennessee 8 10.1%

Well how can that be, what with McNabb delivering the ball so crisply and on target?

McNabb's accuracy doesn't have anything to do with % of drops.

 

[Kleck]

Sorry Engram fans, whenever I think of Engram, I think of him dropping that sure TD reception against the Rams in the '04 playoffs.

That's not exactly fair. The ball was rifled from a short distance at his feet while Hasselbeck was moving one direction and Engram was moving the opposite. No statistician in the NFL would record that as a drop. Was it uncatchable? I wouldn't go that far, but it certainly shouldn't count as a drop.

I agree. I remember watching that play and thinking it would have been a great catch. Nice play by Engram to make it that close, although that's not much of a consolation.

Come on now, the ball hit his hands! It wouldn't have been a 'great' catch, but it would have been a 'clutch' catch. That ball was very catchable.

Do you classify that play as a "drop"?

 

[This_Is_Not_VRR]

Good thread.

 

[Frenchy Fuqua]

I am amazed at the street cred that KC Joyner carries around here. If you read his "book" from last year he was actually missing games from early in the season, games he never taped. I admire what the guy is trying to do but his work is certainly open for interpretation. He grades players based on what he sees yet has zero football background.

I still believe in Stats Inc for catches/drops/etc., if they are good enough for NFL teams that's all I need to know.

 

[This_Is_Not_VRR]

I am amazed at the street cred that KC Joyner carries around here. If you read his "book" from last year he was actually missing games from early in the season, games he never taped. I admire what the guy is trying to do but his work is certainly open for interpretation. He grades players based on what he sees yet has zero football background.

I agree with you. KC "The football Scientist" Joyner is a bit of hack. In one of his latest articles he claimed that Matt Hasselbeck and Ben Roethlisberger were two of the worst decision makers in the NFL.

 

[Frenchy Fuqua]

I am amazed at the street cred that KC Joyner carries around here. If you read his "book" from last year he was actually missing games from early in the season, games he never taped. I admire what the guy is trying to do but his work is certainly open for interpretation. He grades players based on what he sees yet has zero football background.

I agree with you. KC "The football Scientist" Joyner is a bit of hack. In one of his latest articles he claimed that Matt Hasselbeck and Ben Roethlisberger were two of the worst decision makers in the NFL.

Good point, he's got another article on Insider where he "grades" defensive linemen based on his own "metrics". I am no D-coordinator but unless you know the defense called and each player's role on each play it's hard to grade them. A 3-4 D-lineman has a much different role than a 4-3 D-lineman.

 

[SSOG]

I am amazed at the street cred that KC Joyner carries around here. If you read his "book" from last year he was actually missing games from early in the season, games he never taped. I admire what the guy is trying to do but his work is certainly open for interpretation. He grades players based on what he sees yet has zero football background.

I agree with you. KC "The football Scientist" Joyner is a bit of hack. In one of his latest articles he claimed that Matt Hasselbeck and Ben Roethlisberger were two of the worst decision makers in the NFL.

Oh yeah, Ben Roethlisberger is a bastion of good decision making. Really beyond reproof. Clearly Joyner is a hack for calling him out here. I mean, just look at the numbers!Here's the rankings of all 32 leading passers from last season in terms of Int rate.

Pass Attempts per Interception:

73.5 - Brad Johnson

65.1 - Jake Plummer

60.4 - Byron Leftwich

50.7 - Trent Green

49.9 - Matt Hasselbeck

47.1 - Kerry Collins

45.4 - Mark Brunell

45.3 - Peyton Manning

44.7 - Chris Simms

44.3 - Brooks Bollinger

43.3 - Steve McNair

42.4 - Carson Palmer

41.7 - Kurt Warner

39.7 - Donovan McNabb

38.5 - David Carr

38.0 - Gus Frerotte

37.9 - Tom Brady

32.8 - Eli Manning

33.3 - Drew Brees

31.9 - Marc Bulger

29.8 - Michael Vick

29.8 - Ben Roethlisberger

29.4 - Drew Bledsoe

28.8 - Kelly Holcomb

28.0 - Kyle Orton

27.8 - Trent Dilfer

27.5 - Joey Harrington

27.1 - Jake Delhomme

25.4 - Aaron Brooks

24.4 - Kyle Boller

20.9 - Brett Favre

15.0 - Alex Smith

See? Ben is a GREAT decision maker! He throws fewer picks than... ummm... the legendary Kyle Orton! And he managed a better INT rate than Kyle Boller and Trent Dilfer, to boot! What a stud!

I think a lot of people could benefit from paying more attention to Joyner's numbers instead of conventional wisdom.

 

[This_Is_Not_VRR]

I am amazed at the street cred that KC Joyner carries around here. If you read his "book" from last year he was actually missing games from early in the season, games he never taped. I admire what the guy is trying to do but his work is certainly open for interpretation. He grades players based on what he sees yet has zero football background.

I agree with you. KC "The football Scientist" Joyner is a bit of hack. In one of his latest articles he claimed that Matt Hasselbeck and Ben Roethlisberger were two of the worst decision makers in the NFL.

Oh yeah, Ben Roethlisberger is a bastion of good decision making. Really beyond reproof. Clearly Joyner is a hack for calling him out here. I mean, just look at the numbers!Here's the rankings of all 32 leading passers from last season in terms of Int rate.

Pass Attempts per Interception:

73.5 - Brad Johnson

65.1 - Jake Plummer

60.4 - Byron Leftwich

50.7 - Trent Green

49.9 - Matt Hasselbeck

47.1 - Kerry Collins

45.4 - Mark Brunell

45.3 - Peyton Manning

44.7 - Chris Simms

44.3 - Brooks Bollinger

43.3 - Steve McNair

42.4 - Carson Palmer

41.7 - Kurt Warner

39.7 - Donovan McNabb

38.5 - David Carr

38.0 - Gus Frerotte

37.9 - Tom Brady

32.8 - Eli Manning

33.3 - Drew Brees

31.9 - Marc Bulger

29.8 - Michael Vick

29.8 - Ben Roethlisberger

29.4 - Drew Bledsoe

28.8 - Kelly Holcomb

28.0 - Kyle Orton

27.8 - Trent Dilfer

27.5 - Joey Harrington

27.1 - Jake Delhomme

25.4 - Aaron Brooks

24.4 - Kyle Boller

20.9 - Brett Favre

15.0 - Alex Smith

See? Ben is a GREAT decision maker! He throws fewer picks than... ummm... the legendary Kyle Orton! And he managed a better INT rate than Kyle Boller and Trent Dilfer, to boot! What a stud!

I think a lot of people could benefit from paying more attention to Joyner's numbers instead of conventional wisdom.

And what do those numbers say about Matt Hasselbeck? Why is it that you failed to put his name in bold? Afterall, Joyner's "research" makes him out to be one of the worst decision makers in the NFL...Lastly, "conventional wisdom" tells me that Big Ben is damn good QB that lead his team to the Super Bowl in just his second year.