God in the old testament (1 Viewer)

[Jayrod]

It's not black and white, absurd or not. Sure, from my point of view, belief in any god is to a certain extent, absurd, but I understand it. Belief that Noah's flood actually happened is a whole different level.

This. And if you can't understand this, your belief system is way out of whack.

I understand the stance. I don't agree with it, but I understand it.

 

[fatness]

And the Lord said

"I burn down your cities--how blind you must be

I take from you your children and you say how blessed are we

You must all be crazy to put your faith in me

That's why i love mankind."

I don't know if I've just never caught on to it before or what, but I'm surprised by your extreme stance on this topic. There is a surprising level of vitrol in this thread from you, and I feel like there is something deeper going on here...like you are a bit out of character on this topic.

Just so you know (in case you don't), those words are quoted from Randy Newman.

 

[timschochet]

And the Lord said

"I burn down your cities--how blind you must be

I take from you your children and you say how blessed are we

You must all be crazy to put your faith in me

That's why i love mankind."

I don't know if I've just never caught on to it before or what, but I'm surprised by your extreme stance on this topic. There is a surprising level of vitrol in this thread from you, and I feel like there is something deeper going on here...like you are a bit out of character on this topic.

I wasn't making a stance. I'm quoting Randy Newman lyrics.

Admittedly, HE'S taking a pretty extreme stance here, though in a typically satiric, funny style.

(As an aside- about 10 years ago I went and saw Randy Newman in concert, and he was talking about how many songs he had written for Disney movies. Then he laughed and said, "Here's one I didn't write for Disney- doubt they'd want it.", and he played "God's Song".)

 

[babydemon90]

The OT is one giant black eye for Christianity which is why so many of the Evangelicals and the New Christian movement try to ignore a lot of it or attempt at just letting folks know it's the New Testament that they follow. Some of the stuff written in the OT is pretty frightening.

All that said, it does not give atheists or anyone a license to blast Christians. Of course folks do but I think it only weakens your stance.

Actually, no... The OT prophets had some good #### to say. I think Amos and most Republicans would not get along.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

It's not black and white, absurd or not. Sure, from my point of view, belief in any god is to a certain extent, absurd, but I understand it. Belief that Noah's flood actually happened is a whole different level.

Pretty much every ancient civilization in the world has a flood story.I personally believe something major went down and if I had to wager, my money would be on the Biblical account being most accurate. But I'm not going to say I know for sure. Whether 100% factual or mostly symbolic, there is a lot of truth in the Biblical account of Noah regarding the relationship between God and man.

The something major that happened was rising sea levels from the end of the last ice age.

Global sea level rose by a total of more than 120 metres as the vast ice sheets of the last Ice Age melted back. This melt-back lasted from about 19,000 to about 6,000 years ago, meaning that the average rate of sea-level rise was roughly 1 metre per century.

This also flooded all of the fertile valleys (Edens) and corresponds to when man went from "God will provide" hunter-gathers to being "self sufficient" with the rise of agriculture and then "city life", God's chosen people were late to this party and left out. "Self sufficient" of course being "original sin".

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

It's not black and white, absurd or not. Sure, from my point of view, belief in any god is to a certain extent, absurd, but I understand it. Belief that Noah's flood actually happened is a whole different level.

Pretty much every ancient civilization in the world has a flood story.I personally believe something major went down and if I had to wager, my money would be on the Biblical account being most accurate. But I'm not going to say I know for sure. Whether 100% factual or mostly symbolic, there is a lot of truth in the Biblical account of Noah regarding the relationship between God and man.

Do you believe a man built a boat and took two of each animal on it, thereby saving them from the flood?

I do get stumped on why an all knowing God needs rainbows to remind him to not to do it again.

 

[Jayrod]

It's not black and white, absurd or not. Sure, from my point of view, belief in any god is to a certain extent, absurd, but I understand it. Belief that Noah's flood actually happened is a whole different level.

Pretty much every ancient civilization in the world has a flood story.I personally believe something major went down and if I had to wager, my money would be on the Biblical account being most accurate. But I'm not going to say I know for sure. Whether 100% factual or mostly symbolic, there is a lot of truth in the Biblical account of Noah regarding the relationship between God and man.

Do you believe a man built a boat and took two of each animal on it, thereby saving them from the flood?

I do get stumped on why an all knowing God needs rainbows to remind him to not to do it again.

 

[Jayrok]

I think it is funny how someone thinks these arguments are new or something when God addressed them in the Bible thousands of years ago in the book of Job.

If the Bible is real, then nothing surprises Him and man's mocking, scoffing and ranting probably doesn't change anything.

Calling God names like psychopath and childish is pointless and foolish.

While these types of rants are not surprising, I still find them saddening.

Job sure has to suffer a lot during that analysis. And in the end God's only defense seems to be "I am God and you're not, so shut the #### up! I can do what I want." Pretty lame IMO.

Just an fyi, the book of Job never happened. The whole book is a parable and completely made up. Not everything in the Bible is real.

The Author of the book of James seemed to think Job's story was real (James 5:11).

As you know, we count as blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job's perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.

Nothing in that quote indicates that the author sees Job as a real person as opposed to a parable that we're supposed to draw lessons from.

I said that he seemed to believe it was real. I think one could see it either way with no proof in either case. In the book of Ezekiel, God speaks to the prophet and names Job along with Noah and Daniel (two presumed historical figures in the OT), as 3 men that he would spare as he punished Israel. These 3 couldn't save their children or land, but they would be saved because of their righteousness. Sure, God is using a hypothetical here, but why use two historical figures and one fictional figure everyone knew only in a parable?

Maybe the simplest answer is that he was thought to be an historical figure along with Noah and Daniel. "I'm going to bring a famine on the United States, though these three men, Roger Goodell, Bill Gates, and Paul Bunyun are in it, they shall themselves be saved..." ?

 

[Buck Bradcanon]

Otis, did your kid winding up getting baptised and/or do you go to church? I am an atheist in a Christian family..just wondering how you have dealt with it. Causes some stress in the family for me.. just curious.

 

[Otis]

Otis, did your kid winding up getting baptised and/or do you go to church? I am an atheist in a Christian family..just wondering how you have dealt with it. Causes some stress in the family for me.. just curious.

It's a minor issue for us as well. Both grandmothers pushed for it hard. We did not baptize, or have not yet at least. The pressure isn't outrageous, but it remains there (it's a lot less prevalent than initially, and rarely comes up these days). My wife and I have talked about getting both baptized after the second arrives, if only so they can feel "included" and to satisfy our parents. I'd rather not, but don't feel strongly about it. In my generation growing up, the inclusion concern was valid, but where we live now and in today's day and age, it's a whole lot more mixed, and I just think more open/enlightened. So I'm not so sure it is a valid concern. And it's not enough that our parents want it. My in laws are a little more religious and will buy her Jesus crap here and there, and I mostly trash it all.

We probably won't end up doing it, but it's possible. If we don't, our families will have to suck it up and accept our decision.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

It may never matter to me, but I don't think I'd worry about the baptism thing. I got married in a Catholic church. It meant nothing to me, but it made my mother-in-law happy. And that made my wife less insane. I imagine a baptism would be the same deal. I might feel the twinge of hypocrisy, but it wouldn't be the first time or the last time.

 

[Buck Bradcanon]

Otis, did your kid winding up getting baptised and/or do you go to church? I am an atheist in a Christian family..just wondering how you have dealt with it. Causes some stress in the family for me.. just curious.

It's a minor issue for us as well. Both grandmothers pushed for it hard. We did not baptize, or have not yet at least. The pressure isn't outrageous, but it remains there (it's a lot less prevalent than initially, and rarely comes up these days). My wife and I have talked about getting both baptized after the second arrives, if only so they can feel "included" and to satisfy our parents. I'd rather not, but don't feel strongly about it. In my generation growing up, the inclusion concern was valid, but where we live now and in today's day and age, it's a whole lot more mixed, and I just think more open/enlightened. So I'm not so sure it is a valid concern. And it's not enough that our parents want it. My in laws are a little more religious and will buy her Jesus crap here and there, and I mostly trash it all.

We probably won't end up doing it, but it's possible. If we don't, our families will have to suck it up and accept our decision.

Thank you for the response. Sounds like your spouse doesn't really care either. Not the case for me, and that creates a much different dynamic than does pressure from extended family.

I agree with the more open/enlightened comment. Then again i live in South Texas.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Otis, did your kid winding up getting baptised and/or do you go to church? I am an atheist in a Christian family..just wondering how you have dealt with it. Causes some stress in the family for me.. just curious.

It's a minor issue for us as well. Both grandmothers pushed for it hard. We did not baptize, or have not yet at least. The pressure isn't outrageous, but it remains there (it's a lot less prevalent than initially, and rarely comes up these days). My wife and I have talked about getting both baptized after the second arrives, if only so they can feel "included" and to satisfy our parents. I'd rather not, but don't feel strongly about it. In my generation growing up, the inclusion concern was valid, but where we live now and in today's day and age, it's a whole lot more mixed, and I just think more open/enlightened. So I'm not so sure it is a valid concern. And it's not enough that our parents want it. My in laws are a little more religious and will buy her Jesus crap here and there, and I mostly trash it all.

We probably won't end up doing it, but it's possible. If we don't, our families will have to suck it up and accept our decision.

Thank you for the response. Sounds like your spouse doesn't really care either. Not the case for me, and that creates a much different dynamic than does pressure from extended family.

I agree with the more open/enlightened comment. Then again i live in South Texas.

I'll be going through this shortly. My wife wants to baptise to appease the religious folks in her family. My family couldn't care less (though my sister and I were both baptised and she has baptised her two kids). I'll go through the motions of it like I did with with my nephews (I'm their god-father) but if asked, I'll give my honest opinion.

Baptising is really creepy. Some random guy splashing water on your kid and chanting? Yeah...

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I think it is funny how someone thinks these arguments are new or something when God addressed them in the Bible thousands of years ago in the book of Job.

If the Bible is real, then nothing surprises Him and man's mocking, scoffing and ranting probably doesn't change anything.

Calling God names like psychopath and childish is pointless and foolish.

While these types of rants are not surprising, I still find them saddening.

Job sure has to suffer a lot during that analysis. And in the end God's only defense seems to be "I am God and you're not, so shut the #### up! I can do what I want." Pretty lame IMO.

Just an fyi, the book of Job never happened. The whole book is a parable and completely made up. Not everything in the Bible is real.

The Author of the book of James seemed to think Job's story was real (James 5:11).

As you know, we count as blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job's perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.

Nothing in that quote indicates that the author sees Job as a real person as opposed to a parable that we're supposed to draw lessons from.

I said that he seemed to believe it was real. I think one could see it either way with no proof in either case.

Right. Which is why it isn't relevant.

 

[FUBAR]

Baptising is really creepy. Some random guy splashing water on your kid and chanting? Yeah...

Protestants don't chant. The Roman Catholic Church lost it's way, a long time ago.

 

[FUBAR]

Otis, did your kid winding up getting baptised and/or do you go to church? I am an atheist in a Christian family..just wondering how you have dealt with it. Causes some stress in the family for me.. just curious.

It's a minor issue for us as well. Both grandmothers pushed for it hard. We did not baptize, or have not yet at least. The pressure isn't outrageous, but it remains there (it's a lot less prevalent than initially, and rarely comes up these days). My wife and I have talked about getting both baptized after the second arrives, if only so they can feel "included" and to satisfy our parents. I'd rather not, but don't feel strongly about it. In my generation growing up, the inclusion concern was valid, but where we live now and in today's day and age, it's a whole lot more mixed, and I just think more open/enlightened. So I'm not so sure it is a valid concern. And it's not enough that our parents want it. My in laws are a little more religious and will buy her Jesus crap here and there, and I mostly trash it all.

We probably won't end up doing it, but it's possible. If we don't, our families will have to suck it up and accept our decision.

If baptism means nothing to you, don't do it. You'd be lying to the Church.

But how would you feel if your kids decide to get baptized when they get old enough to make their own decisions in this area?

 

[Otis]

Otis, did your kid winding up getting baptised and/or do you go to church? I am an atheist in a Christian family..just wondering how you have dealt with it. Causes some stress in the family for me.. just curious.

It's a minor issue for us as well. Both grandmothers pushed for it hard. We did not baptize, or have not yet at least. The pressure isn't outrageous, but it remains there (it's a lot less prevalent than initially, and rarely comes up these days). My wife and I have talked about getting both baptized after the second arrives, if only so they can feel "included" and to satisfy our parents. I'd rather not, but don't feel strongly about it. In my generation growing up, the inclusion concern was valid, but where we live now and in today's day and age, it's a whole lot more mixed, and I just think more open/enlightened. So I'm not so sure it is a valid concern. And it's not enough that our parents want it. My in laws are a little more religious and will buy her Jesus crap here and there, and I mostly trash it all.

We probably won't end up doing it, but it's possible. If we don't, our families will have to suck it up and accept our decision.

Thank you for the response. Sounds like your spouse doesn't really care either. Not the case for me, and that creates a much different dynamic than does pressure from extended family.

I agree with the more open/enlightened comment. Then again i live in South Texas.

Oof. I'm in a NYC suburb. In south Texas my answer might be different. Good luck.

 

[Otis]

Otis, did your kid winding up getting baptised and/or do you go to church? I am an atheist in a Christian family..just wondering how you have dealt with it. Causes some stress in the family for me.. just curious.

It's a minor issue for us as well. Both grandmothers pushed for it hard. We did not baptize, or have not yet at least. The pressure isn't outrageous, but it remains there (it's a lot less prevalent than initially, and rarely comes up these days). My wife and I have talked about getting both baptized after the second arrives, if only so they can feel "included" and to satisfy our parents. I'd rather not, but don't feel strongly about it. In my generation growing up, the inclusion concern was valid, but where we live now and in today's day and age, it's a whole lot more mixed, and I just think more open/enlightened. So I'm not so sure it is a valid concern. And it's not enough that our parents want it. My in laws are a little more religious and will buy her Jesus crap here and there, and I mostly trash it all.

We probably won't end up doing it, but it's possible. If we don't, our families will have to suck it up and accept our decision.

If baptism means nothing to you, don't do it. You'd be lying to the Church.

But how would you feel if your kids decide to get baptized when they get old enough to make their own decisions in this area?

I'm not sure where your going with the second question here.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Otis, did your kid winding up getting baptised and/or do you go to church? I am an atheist in a Christian family..just wondering how you have dealt with it. Causes some stress in the family for me.. just curious.

It's a minor issue for us as well. Both grandmothers pushed for it hard. We did not baptize, or have not yet at least. The pressure isn't outrageous, but it remains there (it's a lot less prevalent than initially, and rarely comes up these days). My wife and I have talked about getting both baptized after the second arrives, if only so they can feel "included" and to satisfy our parents. I'd rather not, but don't feel strongly about it. In my generation growing up, the inclusion concern was valid, but where we live now and in today's day and age, it's a whole lot more mixed, and I just think more open/enlightened. So I'm not so sure it is a valid concern. And it's not enough that our parents want it. My in laws are a little more religious and will buy her Jesus crap here and there, and I mostly trash it all.

We probably won't end up doing it, but it's possible. If we don't, our families will have to suck it up and accept our decision.

If baptism means nothing to you, don't do it. You'd be lying to the Church.

If baptism means nothing to me, neither does lying to the Church. It's a completely trivial matter to me.

 

[Hilts]

It's not black and white, absurd or not. Sure, from my point of view, belief in any god is to a certain extent, absurd, but I understand it. Belief that Noah's flood actually happened is a whole different level.

Pretty much every ancient civilization in the world has a flood story.I personally believe something major went down and if I had to wager, my money would be on the Biblical account being most accurate. But I'm not going to say I know for sure. Whether 100% factual or mostly symbolic, there is a lot of truth in the Biblical account of Noah regarding the relationship between God and man.

I'm fairly certain floods are not a recent phenomenon.

 

[Otis]

Otis, did your kid winding up getting baptised and/or do you go to church? I am an atheist in a Christian family..just wondering how you have dealt with it. Causes some stress in the family for me.. just curious.

It's a minor issue for us as well. Both grandmothers pushed for it hard. We did not baptize, or have not yet at least. The pressure isn't outrageous, but it remains there (it's a lot less prevalent than initially, and rarely comes up these days). My wife and I have talked about getting both baptized after the second arrives, if only so they can feel "included" and to satisfy our parents. I'd rather not, but don't feel strongly about it. In my generation growing up, the inclusion concern was valid, but where we live now and in today's day and age, it's a whole lot more mixed, and I just think more open/enlightened. So I'm not so sure it is a valid concern. And it's not enough that our parents want it. My in laws are a little more religious and will buy her Jesus crap here and there, and I mostly trash it all.

We probably won't end up doing it, but it's possible. If we don't, our families will have to suck it up and accept our decision.

If baptism means nothing to you, don't do it. You'd be lying to the Church.

If baptism means nothing to me, neither does lying to the Church. It's a completely trivial matter to me.

Yeah I really don't care about lying to the church. I'm doing what's best for my kid and own sanity, even if it means I have to fib to get her into the Sunday club. In an ideal world, I wouldn't have to have any pressure to get her into the Sunday club, and I wouldn't.

As it stands, wife knows damn well that to the extent we do a baptism, if there are things like sunday school and church involved, she'll be doing the taking. I'll be on the couch. Luckily wife is about as disinterested in christianity and religion as I am, so she isn't exactly rushing to make this happen.

 

[FUBAR]

But how would you feel if your kids decide to get baptized when they get old enough to make their own decisions in this area?

I'm not sure where your going with the second question here.

Just asking. Christians whose kids turn away from the church are usually disappointed or upset. I'd assume it works the other way too. I'm not pretending to know whether you'd let them know you're upset, just your thoughts on it. Say the kid is 16 and living at home, and wants to be baptized at that point. To some degree, I think it makes more sense to get baptized as an adult anyway.

If baptism means nothing to you, don't do it. You'd be lying to the Church.

If baptism means nothing to me, neither does lying to the Church. It's a completely trivial matter to me.

ok then. Some of us don't choose to stand in front of dozens of people and promise to do something we have no intention of doing.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

But how would you feel if your kids decide to get baptized when they get old enough to make their own decisions in this area?

I'm not sure where your going with the second question here.

Just asking. Christians whose kids turn away from the church are usually disappointed or upset. I'd assume it works the other way too. I'm not pretending to know whether you'd let them know you're upset, just your thoughts on it. Say the kid is 16 and living at home, and wants to be baptized at that point. To some degree, I think it makes more sense to get baptized as an adult anyway.

If baptism means nothing to you, don't do it. You'd be lying to the Church.

If baptism means nothing to me, neither does lying to the Church. It's a completely trivial matter to me.

ok then. Some of us don't choose to stand in front of dozens of people and promise to do something we have no intention of doing.

Yeah, but you do your own stupid things.

Normally, theists get pissed when atheists are honest about being atheists. If someone's child dies, and she says "at least he's in a better place now," it's generally considered bad form for an atheist to say, "well, I don't believe that, but I'm glad he's not in pain."

Atheists have to live in a world with believers. Some of those believers actually spend mental energy worrying that their grandchildren will go to heaven if something were to happen to them. If I have to lie to the church to ease that anxiety a little, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

Besides, it's not as if I'd forbid a kid from going to (a relatively sane) church. I might make fun of the kid a bit, but I'm not going to waste any energy trying to oppose it.

 

[FUBAR]

But how would you feel if your kids decide to get baptized when they get old enough to make their own decisions in this area?

I'm not sure where your going with the second question here.

Just asking. Christians whose kids turn away from the church are usually disappointed or upset. I'd assume it works the other way too. I'm not pretending to know whether you'd let them know you're upset, just your thoughts on it. Say the kid is 16 and living at home, and wants to be baptized at that point. To some degree, I think it makes more sense to get baptized as an adult anyway.

If baptism means nothing to you, don't do it. You'd be lying to the Church.

If baptism means nothing to me, neither does lying to the Church. It's a completely trivial matter to me.

ok then. Some of us don't choose to stand in front of dozens of people and promise to do something we have no intention of doing.

Yeah, but you do your own stupid things.

Normally, theists get pissed when atheists are honest about being atheists. If someone's child dies, and she says "at least he's in a better place now," it's generally considered bad form for an atheist to say, "well, I don't believe that, but I'm glad he's not in pain."

Atheists have to live in a world with believers. Some of those believers actually spend mental energy worrying that their grandchildren will go to heaven if something were to happen to them. If I have to lie to the church to ease that anxiety a little, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

Besides, it's not as if I'd forbid a kid from going to (a relatively sane) church. I might make fun of the kid a bit, but I'm not going to waste any energy trying to oppose it.

All I'm asking for is for the adult to be true to their beliefs. If you're an atheist, don't pretend to be a believer just to make your parents happy.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

But how would you feel if your kids decide to get baptized when they get old enough to make their own decisions in this area?

I'm not sure where your going with the second question here.

Just asking. Christians whose kids turn away from the church are usually disappointed or upset. I'd assume it works the other way too. I'm not pretending to know whether you'd let them know you're upset, just your thoughts on it. Say the kid is 16 and living at home, and wants to be baptized at that point. To some degree, I think it makes more sense to get baptized as an adult anyway.

If baptism means nothing to you, don't do it. You'd be lying to the Church.

If baptism means nothing to me, neither does lying to the Church. It's a completely trivial matter to me.

ok then. Some of us don't choose to stand in front of dozens of people and promise to do something we have no intention of doing.

Yeah, but you do your own stupid things.

Normally, theists get pissed when atheists are honest about being atheists. If someone's child dies, and she says "at least he's in a better place now," it's generally considered bad form for an atheist to say, "well, I don't believe that, but I'm glad he's not in pain."

Atheists have to live in a world with believers. Some of those believers actually spend mental energy worrying that their grandchildren will go to heaven if something were to happen to them. If I have to lie to the church to ease that anxiety a little, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

Besides, it's not as if I'd forbid a kid from going to (a relatively sane) church. I might make fun of the kid a bit, but I'm not going to waste any energy trying to oppose it.

All I'm asking for is for the adult to be true to their beliefs. If you're an atheist, don't pretend to be a believer just to make your parents happy.

I know what you're asking. I'm saying, "no."

Not only because I don't see a need to make my life more miserable by starting a fight with family, but because I don't see a need to make my mother-in-law more miserable. Not for some meaningless show of personal integrity that literally means nothing. It's a lie that harms no one. Certainly not the Church, who by their own doctrine, have one more soul that can be saved.

 

[Otis]

But how would you feel if your kids decide to get baptized when they get old enough to make their own decisions in this area?

I'm not sure where your going with the second question here.

Just asking. Christians whose kids turn away from the church are usually disappointed or upset. I'd assume it works the other way too. I'm not pretending to know whether you'd let them know you're upset, just your thoughts on it. Say the kid is 16 and living at home, and wants to be baptized at that point. To some degree, I think it makes more sense to get baptized as an adult anyway.

Ah, I see what you're saying. No, I wouldn't be upset. I'd be upset to the extent that I would be worried that I deprived them of a choice by NOT doing the "traditional" thing and baptizing and enrolling them as kids. That's more the driving factor for me.

But I suspect there is very, very little likelihood of my children finding their way to Christianity unless we indoctrinate them into it. It just doesn't work that way.

 

[Buck Bradcanon]

Last page and a half has been one of the most level/calm religion chats I have seen around here. Kudos.

Its not always easy. I "became"(?) an atheist after I got married. Doesn't have to be an ender but it has and will make it difficult at times. I wish it was as easy to tell folks IRL that I am an atheist as it is on here.

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

It's not black and white, absurd or not. Sure, from my point of view, belief in any god is to a certain extent, absurd, but I understand it. Belief that Noah's flood actually happened is a whole different level.

Pretty much every ancient civilization in the world has a flood story.I personally believe something major went down and if I had to wager, my money would be on the Biblical account being most accurate. But I'm not going to say I know for sure. Whether 100% factual or mostly symbolic, there is a lot of truth in the Biblical account of Noah regarding the relationship between God and man.

I'm fairly certain floods are not a recent phenomenon.

Little known trivia, Uziah B. Flood invented the flood on April 3,1947. No floods occurred before that date. ANyone telling you otherwise is a bald-faced liar.

 

[Otis]

It may never matter to me, but I don't think I'd worry about the baptism thing. I got married in a Catholic church. It meant nothing to me, but it made my mother-in-law happy. And that made my wife less insane. I imagine a baptism would be the same deal. I might feel the twinge of hypocrisy, but it wouldn't be the first time or the last time.

Missed this. My wife and I got married in a "trendy" space in the NYC area (they filmed an episode of Gossip Girls or some crap there). It was a very cool space and made for an awesome party. We didn't bother with a church aspect. We got a local former judge to marry us. It was funny, but when we went to his office for a first meeting, he pulled out all his "gear" and asked if we wanted him to wear any of it. He had a jewish thing, and some catholic stuff. To keep the peace, we had him wear a sash thingy with crosses on it. It looked pretty religious, almost like a priest. There were the traditional wedding vows and all that stuff. But it made for a really quick ceremony, which I think was a lot different from what many of our family and friends were used to, and we dove right into a party that ended up being pretty epic as far as weddings go...

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

It may never matter to me, but I don't think I'd worry about the baptism thing. I got married in a Catholic church. It meant nothing to me, but it made my mother-in-law happy. And that made my wife less insane. I imagine a baptism would be the same deal. I might feel the twinge of hypocrisy, but it wouldn't be the first time or the last time.

Missed this. My wife and I got married in a "trendy" space in the NYC area (they filmed an episode of Gossip Girls or some crap there). It was a very cool space and made for an awesome party. We didn't bother with a church aspect. We got a local former judge to marry us. It was funny, but when we went to his office for a first meeting, he pulled out all his "gear" and asked if we wanted him to wear any of it. He had a jewish thing, and some catholic stuff. To keep the peace, we had him wear a sash thingy with crosses on it. It looked pretty religious, almost like a priest. There were the traditional wedding vows and all that stuff. But it made for a really quick ceremony, which I think was a lot different from what many of our family and friends were used to, and we dove right into a party that ended up being pretty epic as far as weddings go...

Righetti still has knee scrapes.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Just to add to the "lying to the church" thing, I'm an atheist that does all sorts of Jewish rituals and holidays and religious ceremonies. Nobody cares.

 

[Otis]

Just to add to the "lying to the church" thing, I'm an atheist that does all sorts of Jewish rituals and holidays and religious ceremonies. Nobody cares.

I go to church for funerals and weddings. I'll even take communion, and do the cross and say all the prayers. (Of course as I say them there's a thought bubble over my head with Alessandra Ambrosio on a beach applying suntan lotion). When in Rome...

 

[James Daulton]

But how would you feel if your kids decide to get baptized when they get old enough to make their own decisions in this area?

I'm not sure where your going with the second question here.

Just asking. Christians whose kids turn away from the church are usually disappointed or upset. I'd assume it works the other way too. I'm not pretending to know whether you'd let them know you're upset, just your thoughts on it. Say the kid is 16 and living at home, and wants to be baptized at that point. To some degree, I think it makes more sense to get baptized as an adult anyway.

If baptism means nothing to you, don't do it. You'd be lying to the Church.

If baptism means nothing to me, neither does lying to the Church. It's a completely trivial matter to me.

ok then. Some of us don't choose to stand in front of dozens of people and promise to do something we have no intention of doing.

Yeah, but you do your own stupid things.

Normally, theists get pissed when atheists are honest about being atheists. If someone's child dies, and she says "at least he's in a better place now," it's generally considered bad form for an atheist to say, "well, I don't believe that, but I'm glad he's not in pain."

Atheists have to live in a world with believers. Some of those believers actually spend mental energy worrying that their grandchildren will go to heaven if something were to happen to them. If I have to lie to the church to ease that anxiety a little, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

Besides, it's not as if I'd forbid a kid from going to (a relatively sane) church. I might make fun of the kid a bit, but I'm not going to waste any energy trying to oppose it.

All I'm asking for is for the adult to be true to their beliefs. If you're an atheist, don't pretend to be a believer just to make your parents happy.

So when you're at a wedding, and you think the two people getting married are 100% wrong for each other, and the priest asks if anyone has any objections, you have/would with 100% certainty stand up and object?

We all hold certain beliefs to ourselves if they're not appropriate in the moment.

 

[Politician Spock]

Baptising is really creepy. Some random guy splashing water on your kid and chanting? Yeah...

Protestants don't chant. The Roman Catholic Church lost it's way, a long time ago.

F'ing Romans!

 

[tonydead]

The OT is one giant black eye for Christianity which is why so many of the Evangelicals and the New Christian movement try to ignore a lot of it or attempt at just letting folks know it's the New Testament that they follow. Some of the stuff written in the OT is pretty frightening.

All that said, it does not give atheists or anyone a license to blast Christians. Of course folks do but I think it only weakens your stance.

Link to the post where one person in here blasts Christians. You won't likely find it. What you will find is people questioning stories in an absurd book from a brzillion years ago -- which book has been adopted as a foundational book in many religions -- and a couple of defensive Christians claiming we're on a witch hunt for them. We're really not.

It's probably the comments like calling the Bible an "absurd book", references to Hitler, other attempts to use "quotes" to make a point, "wondering" if the OT was menopause...

I'm sorry, did you read the stories in this thread/the story linked at the OP???

I'd like a good, literal-OT-loving Christian to come in here and tell me how the definition of absurd, as set forth in Webster's, is inapplicable.

Why? You wouldn't believe it anyways. You're definition of absurd is basically anything religious.

I think anything religious fits very well under the definition of absurd. And it's not Christian bashing, it's Christianity bashing.

 

[tonydead]

Lying to the church is pretty ironic.

 

[FUBAR]

But how would you feel if your kids decide to get baptized when they get old enough to make their own decisions in this area?

I'm not sure where your going with the second question here.

Just asking. Christians whose kids turn away from the church are usually disappointed or upset. I'd assume it works the other way too. I'm not pretending to know whether you'd let them know you're upset, just your thoughts on it. Say the kid is 16 and living at home, and wants to be baptized at that point. To some degree, I think it makes more sense to get baptized as an adult anyway.

If baptism means nothing to you, don't do it. You'd be lying to the Church.

If baptism means nothing to me, neither does lying to the Church. It's a completely trivial matter to me.

ok then. Some of us don't choose to stand in front of dozens of people and promise to do something we have no intention of doing.

Yeah, but you do your own stupid things.

Normally, theists get pissed when atheists are honest about being atheists. If someone's child dies, and she says "at least he's in a better place now," it's generally considered bad form for an atheist to say, "well, I don't believe that, but I'm glad he's not in pain."

Atheists have to live in a world with believers. Some of those believers actually spend mental energy worrying that their grandchildren will go to heaven if something were to happen to them. If I have to lie to the church to ease that anxiety a little, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

Besides, it's not as if I'd forbid a kid from going to (a relatively sane) church. I might make fun of the kid a bit, but I'm not going to waste any energy trying to oppose it.

All I'm asking for is for the adult to be true to their beliefs. If you're an atheist, don't pretend to be a believer just to make your parents happy.

So when you're at a wedding, and you think the two people getting married are 100% wrong for each other, and the priest asks if anyone has any objections, you have/would with 100% certainty stand up and object?

We all hold certain beliefs to ourselves if they're not appropriate in the moment.

IMO, that's a completely different situation.

"holding certain beliefs to yourself" doesn't work so well when you're voluntarily putting yourself in that situation.

I get why a person could justify it, I just couldn't do it myself.

 

[Oink Oink the Pig]

"Israel" is the name given to the three tribes that worshiped Isis, Ra & E. They of course were Egyptian gods and also explains how the "Israelites" were enslaved by Pharaoh.

The more you know.

 

[Jayrod]

"Israel" is the name given to the three tribes that worshiped Isis, Ra & E. They of course were Egyptian gods and also explains how the "Israelites" were enslaved by Pharaoh.

The more you know.

What? This is like saying that Barack Hussein Obama was named after Osama Bin Laden and Sadam Hussein.

Israel was the name given to Jacob by God after their Wrestlemania match in the desert. It likely was a name that meant "struggles with God". Jacob was the father of twelve sons who became the twelve tribes of Israel. One of those sons, Joseph was sold by his brothers into slavery where he was taken to Egypt and later became second in command. Then there was a famine, his brothers came to Egypt for some food, Joseph toyed with them, but then revealed himself and then the whole family moved to the land of Goshen in Egypt. It was hundreds of years later before they became a large people group and were enslaved by the Egyptians. They were the "Israelites" before even arriving in Egypt.

 

[Jayrod]

Baptising is really creepy. Some random guy splashing water on your kid and chanting? Yeah...

Protestants don't chant. The Roman Catholic Church lost it's way, a long time ago.

Some Catholic churches still do the whole thing in Latin. It isn't really "chanting" in the New-Agey sort of way, but reciting a memorized prayer in Latin.

A handful of Protestant churches do the infant baptism thing. Most do not and only baptize the person when they want to. Which is sometimes still pretty young, but only after the kid requests it and has sufficiently explained that they know what they are doing. Then there are the Mormons who baptize dead people.

There are no Biblical references for baptizing a baby or dead person. All baptisms that take place in the Bible are done so voluntarily.

 

[Oink Oink the Pig]

"Israel" is the name given to the three tribes that worshiped Isis, Ra & E. They of course were Egyptian gods and also explains how the "Israelites" were enslaved by Pharaoh.

The more you know.

What? This is like saying that Barack Hussein Obama was named after Osama Bin Laden and Sadam Hussein.

Israel was the name given to Jacob by God after their Wrestlemania match in the desert. It likely was a name that meant "struggles with God". Jacob was the father of twelve sons who became the twelve tribes of Israel. One of those sons, Joseph was sold by his brothers into slavery where he was taken to Egypt and later became second in command. Then there was a famine, his brothers came to Egypt for some food, Joseph toyed with them, but then revealed himself and then the whole family moved to the land of Goshen in Egypt. It was hundreds of years later before they became a large people group and were enslaved by the Egyptians. They were the "Israelites" before even arriving in Egypt.

I meant "El" not "E". This is 100% FACT. It's also the reason why "God" was so eager to kill other Israelites. They still had their own ideas on the one true god and fought all the time. Your Jacob version is pure fiction.

 

[Jayrod]

"Israel" is the name given to the three tribes that worshiped Isis, Ra & E. They of course were Egyptian gods and also explains how the "Israelites" were enslaved by Pharaoh.

The more you know.

What? This is like saying that Barack Hussein Obama was named after Osama Bin Laden and Sadam Hussein.

Israel was the name given to Jacob by God after their Wrestlemania match in the desert. It likely was a name that meant "struggles with God". Jacob was the father of twelve sons who became the twelve tribes of Israel. One of those sons, Joseph was sold by his brothers into slavery where he was taken to Egypt and later became second in command. Then there was a famine, his brothers came to Egypt for some food, Joseph toyed with them, but then revealed himself and then the whole family moved to the land of Goshen in Egypt. It was hundreds of years later before they became a large people group and were enslaved by the Egyptians. They were the "Israelites" before even arriving in Egypt.

I meant "El" not "E". This is 100% FACT. It's also the reason why "God" was so eager to kill other Israelites. They still had their own ideas on the one true god and fought all the time. Your Jacob version is pure fiction.

Oh, OK.

 

[mad sweeney]

Can someone start a "I hate Christians" thread? We don't see enough of those.

Christians weren't even brought up at all until jonnay brought them into the discussion. Being as how the whole new covenant between God and man (ie: God won't be such a psychotic as he was in the OT), the fact that this was about the reasons why God needed a new covenant makes this thread completely agreeing with the basic tenet of Chrisitanity. But I know we can always count on you and jonnay to come in and defend things that aren't being attacked!

 

[mad sweeney]

The obsession in this forum with bashing Christian beliefs is remarkable. You act like you were all repeatedly raped by priests.

I thought this was about the Old Testament.

The Old Testament is still the same God.

Yeah, and his litany of murderous deeds in the OT is the exact reason Christianity came to being. But you're so martyr obsessed that anything that talks about religion needs to be put down.

 

[mad sweeney]

I just wanted to let you know I did see this.

And your answer is?

Didn't really think it was worth one since all you did was parrot the article I already addressed.

I just wanted to let you know I did see this.

And your answer is?

Didn't really think it was worth one since all you did was parrot the article I already addressed.

So we don't count god killing people as murder or god didn't kill anyone?

Or it was just a story meant to teach us a lesson about the value of killing people?

Maybe there are more important things than what happens on this fallen planet.

Well hey, big congrats to God, the All Father, the Omnipotent and Omniscient Creator who loves all (later on of course)! A nice, shiny "participation" ribbon is coming his way for getting almost all the way to 3 whole human beings before his greatest creation became a fallen panet. Heckuva job Brownie!

 

[MaxThreshold]

Okay, who let the troll out out of her cage?

 

[mad sweeney]

Okay, who let the troll out out of her cage?

Like I said, jonnay brought up the Christians. Nice to see you're progressive enough to consider that God might be female though. That's growth I hadn't expected from you.

 

[MaxThreshold]

The troll thinks I'm talking about God?

 

[mad sweeney]

The troll thinks I'm talking about God?

:whoosh:

Double :whoosh: that a troll is calling me a troll. You and wrongay are a very fitting duo.

 

[Jayrok]

There are no Biblical references for baptizing a baby or dead person. All baptisms that take place in the Bible are done so voluntarily.

1 Corinthians 15:29 -- Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?

Some believers of Paul's gospel felt that those who had already died before they met Paul might need to be baptized before they were resurrected after Christ's coming. Since they couldn't be baptized, believers still living were baptized in their name. I don't believe the Bible indicates that Paul taught or endorsed the act specifically, nor does he condemn it. But it could be why some denominations baptize infants and/or for dead loved ones who were never baptized.