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Government Response To The Coronavirus (6 Viewers)
- Thread starter James Daulton
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jm192
Footballguy
But think about which side of this you're on.
The covid data is out there. And you're saying "I don't trust it." You aren't arguing science and numbers. That's when you get "discredited."
If this were something and you came in here with a mountain of scientific proof to your points--I'd listen. You might could convince me you were in the right. But you're not bringing scientific proof. You're telling me "I don't trust the data."
I can choose not to trust the data on anything I disagree with. That doesn't make me right. The burden of proof is on the person trying to "change the paradigm."
-fish-
Footballguy
Insein
Footballguy
You think your typical Maga hat wearing, government hating redneck is going to trust a magic medicine just invented and being forced on them because Trump said it's safe? Not even getting into the fact that probably half of those that won't get the vaccine right now don't even like Trump.meh....I don't believe for a second that if the last administration had told the faithful to put masks on, they would have and they wouldn't be pissed that the government was "making" them because they were told not to look at it that way...so they didn't. This isn't really hard to predict. It's one of the more "water is wet" predictions I've ever made here. That you have a problem with it is weird to me
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
This is pretty much were I am too. I'm not happy at the mandate at all, and I have no shortage of grumpy-sounding complaints about it. But the bottom line seems to be that we're being offered a choice between some flavor of coercion for everybody in the form of mask mandates, soft lockdowns, and other restrictions versus targeted coercion focused on the unvaccinated. That's not really a very difficult call, but I'm still irritated that we reached this point.
-fish-
Footballguy
Venn diagram of anti vaxxers and election fraud conspiracy theorists is probably a circle.
Bogeys
Footballguy
No, they are budgeting for a short term increase in census that happens every year and bringing in extra help. The alternative would be to hire extra staff, run them through months of orientation, then lay off after a few months. That would have devastating long term effects.
Insein
Footballguy
https://www.fiercehealthcare.com/hospitals/as-nnu-blames-hospital-cost-cutting-for-healthcare-s-labor-shortage-industry-groups-keep
“Hospitals cut and laid off staff from units that had temporarily low patient census, and canceled [registered nurse] traveler contracts,” NNU wrote. “Again, the industry was shortsightedly looking for immediate ways to cut costs and boost profits instead of planning for patient and public health needs. Hospitals’ actions, and inaction, have resulted in a lack of critical care staff during COVID.”
To bolster its case, the union pointed to a 2017 Department of Health and Human Services report suggesting that nurse shortages are regional and that the U.S. as a whole has an adequate supply of registered nurses. Any nationwide shortage would not be of those with degrees, NNU wrote, but of those “willing to risk their licenses or the safety of their patients by working under the unsafe conditions the hospital industry has created.”
CrossEyed2
Footballguy
There was no reason for anyone to believe that scurvy wasn't a contagious disease either. Until it was discovered that it wasn't. And that's just one example. But if nobody is willing to consider any ideas that happen to sound "kooky" to them, there's no chance of ever discovering that any of our current paradigms are wrong.
But I'm not going to continue the discussion. Seems pointless.
jm192
Footballguy
Sure.
I'm not real warm and fuzzy about the idea. I'm not a Biden fanboy by any means. I'll keep criticizing him for lots of other things.
But this pandemic can end. The vaccination rate being high enough is the ticket. And the people that are refusing to get vaccinated caused this more than anything Joe Biden ever did.
20 or 30 years ago, before facebook and Twitter, people would have just taken the shot because it's the good thing to do. You gotta be a good citizen. People would feel guilty they hadn't done their part yet.
And now it's all about me me me. I don't feel bad for those people. If you don't want the shot, don't get it. I'm not sure where you'll work or how you'll eat. But don't get it.
-fish-
Footballguy
You realize that article says that this is a contrarian position set forth by the nurses' union, right?
AAABatteries
Footballguy
No, because they aren’t educated in the field or in some cases because they are liars or nuts or believe bad science. As an example, I am 100% confident that no one should listen to anything I say about COVID that isn’t just repeating what experts say. I have no education or expertise in infectious diseases and viruses. I’m guessing you don’t either, no matter how much you’ve read.
-fish-
Footballguy
Yes, as long as you believe nonsense over science, it is pointless. But it would be helpful if you would stop trying to spread conspiracies. That's actually harmful and dangerous.
jm192
Footballguy
Again,
Scurvy had science. They figured out oranges fixed it. They did their own experiments and in an archaic way--had data.
But you guys just keep saying "We don't trust THAT data."
-fish-
Footballguy
Seriously, did we go through this with polio or small pox? "There's a vaccine that can help me not contract a horrible disease? Sign me up!"
Somehow that became "The virus is a hoax. The vaccine is a conspiracy. I can just get horse dewormer at the tractor store, and the government is covering it up so they can take my money and control me!"
Insein
Footballguy
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2783615
"Conclusions and Relevance This study found that vaccine hesitancy before the authorization of the COVID-19 vaccine was increased among Black, Hispanic or Latino, and Asian HCWs compared with White HCWs. These findings suggest that interventions focused on addressing vaccine hesitancy among HCWs are needed."
Clearly. Or do we concede that Trump has the minority vote on his side?
Insein
Footballguy
Got it. So you're saying Nurses and their unions are wrong and not overworked and underpaid. They should get back in there and suck it up.
The Commish
Footballguy
Yup.....not exactly a nuanced bunch. All you have to do is look at their desire to suck down HCQ
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Insein
Footballguy
Then I guess that's where we differ. Trump was saying to get the vax last year and most of this year. They didn't run out and get it. Other people that did not vote for Trump or care for him as person ALSO did not get the vax. See how there's not a real correlation there.Yup.....not exactly a nuanced bunch. All you have to do is look at their desire to suck down HCQ
Some people are sheep. Like how the average cable news watcher will sway their opinion based solely on what Fox or CNN tells them.
Last year Biden and Kamala "I'm not taking any vaccine Trump says to take." CNN: Trump vaccine unsafe! Foxnews: Trump vaccines a miracle!
This year. Biden and Kamala "these vaccines are so safe that I'm forcing you to take it." CNN: stunning and brave! Foxnews: Literally Hitler!
-fish-
Footballguy
I'm saying that it's a negotiating position specifically referencing a 2017 study. Again, you're all over the place. Your point started with claiming hospitals aren't overrun and their staffing issues are based on budget cuts. Now you're saying nurses are underpaid.
You can't just google "Nurses pay" and post random articles to support your nonsensical argument.
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-fish-
Footballguy
shader
Footballguy
Doug B
Footballguy
I've seen the quotes. Much context is missing -- essentially, it never happened as presented.
KingPrawn
Footballguy
Things that make you go hmmmmm. Why are American businesses with 100 or more employees required to vaccinate workers but migrants at the southern border are not required to vaccinate?
Despite the fact that 30% refuse to be vaccinated and are allowed to do so. Meanwhile, more than 18% of migrant families who recently crossed the border tested positive for COVID before being released by Border Patrol.
Don't get me wrong. I'm vaccinated and believe all should get the vaccine. But shouldn't we be consistent with our policies? This certainly sends the message that it's more about politics than it is about safety.
Despite the fact that 30% refuse to be vaccinated and are allowed to do so. Meanwhile, more than 18% of migrant families who recently crossed the border tested positive for COVID before being released by Border Patrol.
Don't get me wrong. I'm vaccinated and believe all should get the vaccine. But shouldn't we be consistent with our policies? This certainly sends the message that it's more about politics than it is about safety.
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
The Big Donkey
Footballguy
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
The degree of ICU bed and resource utilization during the pandemic is unprecedented.While many hospitals periodically operate at or above capacity during the winter, never during my 20 years in medicine have so many units and personnel been repurposed to care for one diagnosis. Never have elective procedures been put on hold, transfers for higher level of care been refused or healthcare facilities risked running out of PPE, ventilators and oxygen. While it's not every hospital in every state simultaneously, it's widespread enough that healthcare workers are being shuttled around the country to help with the burden, and talk of erecting field hospitals has been invoked.
I don't recall what you wife does in healthcare, but I'm guessing she doesn't take care of patients. Either that, or you live in a remote area that hasn't been hard hit by covid. Either way, it's pretty insulting for those of us who have experienced the badness firsthand to suggest this is some routine surge.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Yes. For HI: Too few ICU and regular beds, ICU doctors and ICU nurses. Ventilators and PPE are OK atm, but oxygen is in short supply.
None of those problems is readily remedied. Nurses are being brought in from around the country, doctors not trained in critical care are being asked to manage ICU patients, elective procedures have been cancelled and we are restricting oxygen use in the meantime. Our hospital has never operated this way - none of this is routine.
The cause: Too many covid patients in a profit-minded healthcare system.
The best fix: Mandate NPI for the short-term, and remove barriers to vaccination. Long term, we need major healthcare overhaul.
Insein
Footballguy
I agree on the major healthcare overhaul. Maybe that's the one good thing that will come out of this.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Another possible conclusion is you've misunderstood the science.I've done my best to understand rtPCR. I've read and listened to information shared by it's inventor/discoverer. I've compared statements from Fauci about cycle thresholds to the number of cycles that the FDA recommends that labs use. I've attempted to be as objective as I can be. I can arrive at no other conclusion than the test is essentially meaningless.
It's OK, that happens to the best of us. I did pretty well in school, and wanted to major in physics at one time. Unfortunately, my mind has trouble understanding electromagnetism and quantum mechanics, so I bowed out and studied biochem instead. But my failure didn't invalidate things said by Einstein and his peers. At some point, we all need to defer to experts, lest you are omniscient, infallible, or too proud to trust others.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
The history of scurvy (maybe you know this) is actually a really interesting read. There was an article written last year about how we literally lost the cure for scurvy.
Eta:
Older article
a bizarre tale of science gone wrong, and a really good explanation of why you should eat a bit of citrus once in a while.
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KingPrawn
Footballguy
Wait. So members of Congress and their staff are exempt from the mandate?
Members of Congress, staff exempt from Biden COVID-19 vaccine mandate
Do they have some sort of super-power that prevents them from getting and spreading COVID?
So your average Joe working in some paper mill making toilet paper has to get the vaccine but the government leaders do not?
Members of Congress, staff exempt from Biden COVID-19 vaccine mandate
Do they have some sort of super-power that prevents them from getting and spreading COVID?
So your average Joe working in some paper mill making toilet paper has to get the vaccine but the government leaders do not?
the rover
Footballguy
makes sense. order only applies to the executive branch. congress and federal courts are beyond the authority of the order.
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Max Power
Footballguy
the rover
Footballguy
there is a federal program that allows you to file a claim for a vaccine-related injury. IIRC it's been around for about 20 years.
Max Power
Footballguy
Out of curiosity, do you know what the acceptance/payout rates are? Veterans are still trying to link the anthrax vaccines to gulf war Syndrome with mixed results.
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
matuski
Footballguy
Good.
More resources for those that should get it.
Ridiculous that hopsitals are converting staff from other departments (particularly the OR) for ####### unvaccinated people.
matuski
Footballguy
The way people mock others regarding data and covid is fascinating. The left becomes the right becomes the left.
matuski
Footballguy
ICU's are indeed run on a tight surplus of staff.
What hospital operations are you referring to others not having a clue about. They got behind, hired furiously, let them go, now behind... transferring hospital resources to ICU.
It is a running joke that isn't funny among those affected (hospital staff that doesn't want to be in the ICU... anesthesiologists, etc.).
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