Grading the LT's (1 Viewer)

[chris1969]

Ok after getting feedback the first time I realized that I'll be watching tape well into the season before I can come up with proper grades. So I'm throwing out the scouting reports and rating all players based solely on the way I would personally rank them. I fully expect to make revisions to this list based on feedback, but like before I would prefer you to state why 1 guy is better than another more than how much a guy gets paid or how many pro bowls he has. Tell me what he does better on the football field.

Also as an added bonus...

I have included separate rankings for run and pass! These rankings are ribbed for her pleasure. This is where I expect the most arguements, but that is a good thing.

Team Lt New Run Pass

Seattle Seahawks Walter Jones 1 3 1

St Louis Rams Orlando Pace 2 1 3

Indianapolis Colts Tarik Glenn 3 4 2

San Diego Chargers Marcus McNeil 4 2 7

Cincinnati Bengals Levi Jones 5 5 4

New Orleans Saints Jammal Brown 6 6 5

Baltimore Ravens Jonathan Ogden 7 8 6

Washington Redskins Chris Samuels 8 13 8

Philadelphia Eagles William Thomas 9 12 9

Green Bay Packers Chad Clifton 10 15 10

Denver Broncos Matt Lepsis 11 7 13

Dallas Cowboys Flozell Adams 12 9 12

New England Patriots Matt Light 13 11 11

Minnesota Vikings Bryant McKinnie 14 10 16

New York Jets D'Brickashaw Ferguson 15 16 14

Jacksonville Jaguars Khalif Barnes 16 17 15

Pittsburgh Steelers Marvel Smith 17 14 17

Tampa Bay Buccaneers Luke Petitgout 18 18 18

Tennesee Titans Michael Roos 19 21 19

New York Giants David Diehl 20 19 22

Carolina Panthers Travelle Wharton 21 23 20

Chicago Bears John Tait 22 20 23

San Francisco 49ers Jonas Jennings 23 22 25

Detroit Lions Jeff Backus 24 24 26

Buffalo Bills Jason Peters 25 27 21

Arizona Cardinals Mike Gandy 26 26 28

Atlanta Falcons Wayne Gandy 27 29 24

Houston Texans Charles Spencer 28 25 29

Kansas City Chiefs Damion McIntosh 29 28 27

Miami Dolphins Vernon Carey 30 30 31

Oakland Raiders Barry Sims 31 31 30

Cleveland Browns Joe Thomas N/A

 

[Jiggyonthehut]

Team	                    Name     Overall   Run    Pass
Seattle Seahawks	Walter Jones	1	3	1
St Louis Rams	        Orlando Pace	2	1	3
Indianapolis Colts	Tarik Glenn	3	4	2
San Diego Chargers	Marcus McNeil	4	2	7
Cincinnati Bengals	Levi Jones	5	5	4
New Orleans Saints	Jammal Brown	6	6	5
Baltimore Ravens	Jonathan Ogden	7	8	6
Washington Redskins	Chris Samuels	8	13	8
Philadelphia Eagles	William Thomas	9	12	9
Green Bay Packers	Chad Clifton	10	15	10
Denver Broncos	        Matt Lepsis	11	7	13
Dallas Cowboys	        Flozell Adams	12	9	12
New England Patriots	Matt Light	13	11	11
Minnesota Vikings	Bryant McKinnie	14	10	16
New York Jets	        D. Ferguson	15	16	14
Jacksonville Jaguars	Khalif Barnes	16	17	15
Pittsburgh Steelers	Marvel Smith	17	14	17
Tampa Bay Buccaneers	Luke Petitgout	18	18	18
Tennesee Titans	        Michael Roos	19	21	19
New York Giants	        David Diehl	20	19	22
Carolina Panthers	T. Wharton	21	23	20
Chicago Bears	        John Tait	22	20	23
San Francisco 49ers	Jonas Jennings	23	22	25
Detroit Lions	        Jeff Backus	24	24	26
Buffalo Bills	        Jason Peters	25	27	21
Arizona Cardinals	Mike Gandy	26	26	28
Atlanta Falcons	        Wayne Gandy	27	29	24
Houston Texans	        Charles Spencer	28	25	29
Kansas City Chiefs	Damion McIntosh	29	28	27
Miami Dolphins	        Vernon Carey	30	30	31
Oakland Raiders	        Barry Sims	31	31	30
Cleveland Browns	Joe Thomas	N/A

YWIA

EDIT: Any way to make this non-scrolling?

EDIT(2): Would be interested in seeing the ranking methodology. It seems you have put a heavy emphasis on pass blocking as those rankings seem to dominate overall rankings. By rankings alone you have Chris Samuels with an added total of 21 (13 run + 8 pass) with an overall ranking of 8 while Broncos' Matt Lepsis actuall has a lower added total of 20 (7 run + 13 pass) but is ranked 5 spots lower at 21.

 

[chris1969]

Team	                    Name     Overall   Run    PassSeattle Seahawks	Walter Jones	1	3	1St Louis Rams	        Orlando Pace	2	1	3Indianapolis Colts	Tarik Glenn	3	4	2San Diego Chargers	Marcus McNeil	4	2	7Cincinnati Bengals	Levi Jones	5	5	4New Orleans Saints	Jammal Brown	6	6	5Baltimore Ravens	Jonathan Ogden	7	8	6Washington Redskins	Chris Samuels	8	13	8Philadelphia Eagles	William Thomas	9	12	9Green Bay Packers	Chad Clifton	10	15	10Denver Broncos	        Matt Lepsis	11	7	13Dallas Cowboys	        Flozell Adams	12	9	12New England Patriots	Matt Light	13	11	11Minnesota Vikings	Bryant McKinnie	14	10	16New York Jets	        D. Ferguson	15	16	14Jacksonville Jaguars	Khalif Barnes	16	17	15Pittsburgh Steelers	Marvel Smith	17	14	17Tampa Bay Buccaneers	Luke Petitgout	18	18	18Tennesee Titans	        Michael Roos	19	21	19New York Giants	        David Diehl	20	19	22Carolina Panthers	T. Wharton	21	23	20Chicago Bears	        John Tait	22	20	23San Francisco 49ers	Jonas Jennings	23	22	25Detroit Lions	        Jeff Backus	24	24	26Buffalo Bills	        Jason Peters	25	27	21Arizona Cardinals	Mike Gandy	26	26	28Atlanta Falcons	        Wayne Gandy	27	29	24Houston Texans	        Charles Spencer	28	25	29Kansas City Chiefs	Damion McIntosh	29	28	27Miami Dolphins	        Vernon Carey	30	30	31Oakland Raiders	        Barry Sims	31	31	30Cleveland Browns	Joe Thomas	N/A

YWIAEDIT: Any way to make this non-scrolling?

I would love to learn how you did that and thanks!

 

[chris1969]

Team	                    Name     Overall   Run    PassSeattle Seahawks	Walter Jones	1	3	1St Louis Rams	        Orlando Pace	2	1	3Indianapolis Colts	Tarik Glenn	3	4	2San Diego Chargers	Marcus McNeil	4	2	7Cincinnati Bengals	Levi Jones	5	5	4New Orleans Saints	Jammal Brown	6	6	5Baltimore Ravens	Jonathan Ogden	7	8	6Washington Redskins	Chris Samuels	8	13	8Philadelphia Eagles	William Thomas	9	12	9Green Bay Packers	Chad Clifton	10	15	10Denver Broncos	        Matt Lepsis	11	7	13Dallas Cowboys	        Flozell Adams	12	9	12New England Patriots	Matt Light	13	11	11Minnesota Vikings	Bryant McKinnie	14	10	16New York Jets	        D. Ferguson	15	16	14Jacksonville Jaguars	Khalif Barnes	16	17	15Pittsburgh Steelers	Marvel Smith	17	14	17Tampa Bay Buccaneers	Luke Petitgout	18	18	18Tennesee Titans	        Michael Roos	19	21	19New York Giants	        David Diehl	20	19	22Carolina Panthers	T. Wharton	21	23	20Chicago Bears	        John Tait	22	20	23San Francisco 49ers	Jonas Jennings	23	22	25Detroit Lions	        Jeff Backus	24	24	26Buffalo Bills	        Jason Peters	25	27	21Arizona Cardinals	Mike Gandy	26	26	28Atlanta Falcons	        Wayne Gandy	27	29	24Houston Texans	        Charles Spencer	28	25	29Kansas City Chiefs	Damion McIntosh	29	28	27Miami Dolphins	        Vernon Carey	30	30	31Oakland Raiders	        Barry Sims	31	31	30Cleveland Browns	Joe Thomas	N/A

YWIAEDIT: Any way to make this non-scrolling?EDIT(2): Would be interested in seeing the ranking methodology. It seems you have put a heavy emphasis on pass blocking as those rankings seem to dominate overall rankings. By rankings alone you have Chris Samuels with an added total of 21 (13 run + 8 pass) with an overall ranking of 8 while Broncos' Matt Lepsis actuall has a lower added total of 20 (7 run + 13 pass) but is ranked 5 spots lower at 21.

I actually ranked the players first before making run and pass grades on purpose. I wanted to avoid pasteurizing the rankings. The difference between the 8th and 9th best pass blockers may be a lot more or less than the difference of equally ranked run blockers. After making the grades I noticed the emphasis on pass blocking too. I guess that makes sense since it's LT's and not RT's we're grading, but it wasn't planned.

 

[chris1969]

Wow no comments on this at all? At least flame me! This is a lot of work.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Looks very solid.

Dont want to be too ticky tacky about a tough list.

 

[Despyzer]

Marcus McNeil did not give up a sack from his position all year, despite playing much of the season with two broken hands. I know you moved him up about ten spots, but he may already be better than the 7th-best pass protector at his position. Considering that a jump in skill level isn't out of the question after one year in the league, he might still be underrated.

 

[chris1969]

Marcus McNeil did not give up a sack from his position all year, despite playing much of the season with two broken hands. I know you moved him up about ten spots, but he may already be better than the 7th-best pass protector at his position. Considering that a jump in skill level isn't out of the question after one year in the league, he might still be underrated.

I know I said I threw out the scouting reports, but I saw a lot of flaws in his technique. It's not anything he can't correct, but It's hard to put his pass blocking above a guy like Levi Jones when his footwork is so poor. I think He'll be the best LT in the NFL in a short time, but it's hard to say that time is now. I'm taking everything into consideration though, so if enough people beat me up about it, I may adjust it.

 

[Biabreakable]

Reranked overall:

Team Lt

St Louis Rams Orlando Pace

New Orleans Saints Jammal Brown

San Diego Chargers Marcus McNeil

Cincinnati Bengals Levi Jones

Seattle Seahawks Walter Jones

Washington Redskins Chris Samuels

Philadelphia Eagles William Thomas

Indianapolis Colts Tarik Glenn

Baltimore Ravens Jonathan Ogden

Green Bay Packers Chad Clifton

Denver Broncos Matt Lepsis

Jacksonville Jaguars Khalif Barnes

New England Patriots Matt Light

Minnesota Vikings Bryant McKinnie

Chicago Bears John Tait

New York Jets D'Brickashaw Ferguson

Pittsburgh Steelers Marvel Smith

Dallas Cowboys Flozell Adams

Buffalo Bills Jason Peters

Tennesee Titans Michael Roos

New York Giants David Diehl

Carolina Panthers Travelle Wharton

San Francisco 49ers Jonas Jennings

Detroit Lions Jeff Backus

Tampa Bay Buccaneers Luke Petitgout

Arizona Cardinals Mike Gandy

Atlanta Falcons Wayne Gandy

Houston Texans Charles Spencer

Kansas City Chiefs Damion McIntosh

Miami Dolphins Vernon Carey

Oakland Raiders Barry Sims

Cleveland Browns Joe Thomas

I like that your breaking the linemen down for pass blocking and run blocking but as far as I can tell your ranking them 1-32 in this way instead on a point scale or somthing that might be a bit more objective. I think some of the rankings just happen to fall where the guy fits which is how I re-ordered the list. While this is somewhat critical I do like the effort of breaking them down this way I just dont see ranking them 1-32 in pass blocking as being the best way to use such a comparision. Using a ranking that was 1.0-9.9 might be more effective for example and then adding up the totals for the overall ranking. I also think it would be useful to use result based analysis such as 3 years of how well the team ranked in rushing the ball.. or even better broken down by YPC and what side of the field those runs were on to better isolate the players in question. I know my suggestions take a lot of work and time to compile the information.. thats why I am not doing it.. but I think the results you would get would be better and more of a starting point to make minor adjustments from suggestions of the pool from.

I recomend talking to Chris Smith about this if you haven't allready as he may be able to give you a head start on some of the research.

Still this list is looking a lot better than the 1st version and that may be a result of the breakdown you have done so far.

My revision of your overall ranking is just purely opinion on my part. I have a feeling that if I dug deeper like I am suggesting you do I would have some players like David Diehl and Damion McIntosh higher based off of past performance of those respective teams running games.. right or wrongly.. I suspect wrongly.. but still I think some objectivity and fact should be part of this rather than too much opinion basis. Those are the hardest players to rank.. the ones who are in new roles or with new teams.

 

[chris1969]

Reranked overall:Team LtSt Louis Rams Orlando Pace New Orleans Saints Jammal Brown San Diego Chargers Marcus McNeil Cincinnati Bengals Levi Jones Seattle Seahawks Walter Jones Washington Redskins Chris Samuels Philadelphia Eagles William Thomas Indianapolis Colts Tarik Glenn Baltimore Ravens Jonathan Ogden Green Bay Packers Chad Clifton Denver Broncos Matt Lepsis Jacksonville Jaguars Khalif Barnes New England Patriots Matt Light Minnesota Vikings Bryant McKinnie Chicago Bears John Tait New York Jets D'Brickashaw Ferguson Pittsburgh Steelers Marvel Smith Dallas Cowboys Flozell Adams Buffalo Bills Jason Peters Tennesee Titans Michael Roos New York Giants David DiehlCarolina Panthers Travelle Wharton San Francisco 49ers Jonas Jennings Detroit Lions Jeff Backus Tampa Bay Buccaneers Luke Petitgout Arizona Cardinals Mike Gandy Atlanta Falcons Wayne Gandy Houston Texans Charles Spencer Kansas City Chiefs Damion McIntosh Miami Dolphins Vernon Carey Oakland Raiders Barry Sims Cleveland Browns Joe Thomas I like that your breaking the linemen down for pass blocking and run blocking but as far as I can tell your ranking them 1-32 in this way instead on a point scale or somthing that might be a bit more objective. I think some of the rankings just happen to fall where the guy fits which is how I re-ordered the list. While this is somewhat critical I do like the effort of breaking them down this way I just dont see ranking them 1-32 in pass blocking as being the best way to use such a comparision. Using a ranking that was 1.0-9.9 might be more effective for example and then adding up the totals for the overall ranking. I also think it would be useful to use result based analysis such as 3 years of how well the team ranked in rushing the ball.. or even better broken down by YPC and what side of the field those runs were on to better isolate the players in question. I know my suggestions take a lot of work and time to compile the information.. thats why I am not doing it.. but I think the results you would get would be better and more of a starting point to make minor adjustments from suggestions of the pool from.I recomend talking to Chris Smith about this if you haven't allready as he may be able to give you a head start on some of the research.Still this list is looking a lot better than the 1st version and that may be a result of the breakdown you have done so far.My revision of your overall ranking is just purely opinion on my part. I have a feeling that if I dug deeper like I am suggesting you do I would have some players like David Diehl and Damion McIntosh higher based off of past performance of those respective teams running games.. right or wrongly.. I suspect wrongly.. but still I think some objectivity and fact should be part of this rather than too much opinion basis. Those are the hardest players to rank.. the ones who are in new roles or with new teams.

Thanks for the well thought out suggestion. The only way I can see grading each player on such a scale though is by doing scouting reports on each player, which is what I initially tried to do. It became apparent fairly quickly though, that I had not seen enough tape on all the players to be accurate on the scouting reports. Since it took me 3 months to get to this point, I don't think it's even feasible to watch enough tape on 256 players to get together anything tangible this season. So I went for a more subjective grading system and figured to adjust it to something more of a consensus. If anyone else can think of a happy medium between the 2 ranking styles, I'd be happy to listen but a point scale system needs to have exact criteria that needs to be graded consistently and meticulously to be effective. That takes more time than the 1st games kickoff will allow.

 

[Despyzer]

I know I said I threw out the scouting reports, but I saw a lot of flaws in his technique.

Even if this is true (and it'd be wonderful if you were more specific), don't results weigh higher than technique? Dominic Hasek comes to mind.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Marcus McNeil did not give up a sack from his position all year, despite playing much of the season with two broken hands.

I believe you're thinking of holding penalties, not sacks. He didn't commit a holding penalty all year, but he did give up a few sacks (including two in one game to Jared Allen, I believe).

 

[Biabreakable]

Reranked overall:Team LtSt Louis Rams Orlando Pace New Orleans Saints Jammal Brown San Diego Chargers Marcus McNeil Cincinnati Bengals Levi Jones Seattle Seahawks Walter Jones Washington Redskins Chris Samuels Philadelphia Eagles William Thomas Indianapolis Colts Tarik Glenn Baltimore Ravens Jonathan Ogden Green Bay Packers Chad Clifton Denver Broncos Matt Lepsis Jacksonville Jaguars Khalif Barnes New England Patriots Matt Light Minnesota Vikings Bryant McKinnie Chicago Bears John Tait New York Jets D'Brickashaw Ferguson Pittsburgh Steelers Marvel Smith Dallas Cowboys Flozell Adams Buffalo Bills Jason Peters Tennesee Titans Michael Roos New York Giants David DiehlCarolina Panthers Travelle Wharton San Francisco 49ers Jonas Jennings Detroit Lions Jeff Backus Tampa Bay Buccaneers Luke Petitgout Arizona Cardinals Mike Gandy Atlanta Falcons Wayne Gandy Houston Texans Charles Spencer Kansas City Chiefs Damion McIntosh Miami Dolphins Vernon Carey Oakland Raiders Barry Sims Cleveland Browns Joe Thomas I like that your breaking the linemen down for pass blocking and run blocking but as far as I can tell your ranking them 1-32 in this way instead on a point scale or somthing that might be a bit more objective. I think some of the rankings just happen to fall where the guy fits which is how I re-ordered the list. While this is somewhat critical I do like the effort of breaking them down this way I just dont see ranking them 1-32 in pass blocking as being the best way to use such a comparision. Using a ranking that was 1.0-9.9 might be more effective for example and then adding up the totals for the overall ranking. I also think it would be useful to use result based analysis such as 3 years of how well the team ranked in rushing the ball.. or even better broken down by YPC and what side of the field those runs were on to better isolate the players in question. I know my suggestions take a lot of work and time to compile the information.. thats why I am not doing it.. but I think the results you would get would be better and more of a starting point to make minor adjustments from suggestions of the pool from.I recomend talking to Chris Smith about this if you haven't allready as he may be able to give you a head start on some of the research.Still this list is looking a lot better than the 1st version and that may be a result of the breakdown you have done so far.My revision of your overall ranking is just purely opinion on my part. I have a feeling that if I dug deeper like I am suggesting you do I would have some players like David Diehl and Damion McIntosh higher based off of past performance of those respective teams running games.. right or wrongly.. I suspect wrongly.. but still I think some objectivity and fact should be part of this rather than too much opinion basis. Those are the hardest players to rank.. the ones who are in new roles or with new teams.

Thanks for the well thought out suggestion. The only way I can see grading each player on such a scale though is by doing scouting reports on each player, which is what I initially tried to do. It became apparent fairly quickly though, that I had not seen enough tape on all the players to be accurate on the scouting reports. Since it took me 3 months to get to this point, I don't think it's even feasible to watch enough tape on 256 players to get together anything tangible this season. So I went for a more subjective grading system and figured to adjust it to something more of a consensus. If anyone else can think of a happy medium between the 2 ranking styles, I'd be happy to listen but a point scale system needs to have exact criteria that needs to be graded consistently and meticulously to be effective. That takes more time than the 1st games kickoff will allow.

I think sporting news does this with players grading them out using a 9 point scale including some backups in different categories so you might look into that. I don't know if they have published yet or honestly if they are still doing this or not as I have not seen somthing like this for a couple years now (but I wasn't looking either). I do not always agree with thier rankings but I do think it is useful information that is gathered from scouts and professionals near the game. It would be a good starting point.Get with Chris Smith on this as I know he has done a lot of research.And again thanks for putting these out there I definitly think its a very good topic for discussion and I apprechiate the effort you are putting into it. Just trying to make suggestions that might help improve upon what your allready doing. Perhaps that can be a project you can work on for 2008. I do understand the timing of wanting to come to some conclushion on this for 2007 even if that conclushion is not ideal it can still be useful.

 

[chris1969]

I know I said I threw out the scouting reports, but I saw a lot of flaws in his technique.

Even if this is true (and it'd be wonderful if you were more specific), don't results weigh higher than technique? Dominic Hasek comes to mind.

This is what I wrote in my original scouting report...McNeill took the NFL by storm in his rookie season last year. He's got a great frame and exceptional lower body strength. Terrific knee bend and great balance. He does however get caught making lunges, has terrible footwork and really needs to work on his technique. All of these things should get better in the future as he works with his o-line coach. He's a mauler run blocking and is already one of the best in the NFL. He must keep his weight under control and work out in the off-season as he tends to wear down late in games. I think he'll be a Pro-Bowl for years if he can stay conditioned and improve his technique. Grade 7.5Now if you'd like me to get more specific, pick any Chargers game you have on tape and watch him from the waist down. His footwork is bad in the run game too, but he seemed to have the upper body strength to overcome it. (In that case results do beat technique) In order to be an effective lineman you have to keep your feet chopping rapidly and keep on your toes. Marcus tends to block flat footed and his feet are slower than molasses. When he's pass blocking you'll notice that rather than keeping his shoulders square to his opponent they're sea-sawing back and forth because he's using his upper body to compensate for what he's not doing in his lower body. He may not have given up a sack last year, but he did get beat more than a few times. Statistics do lie and especially when you only have 1 season's stats to go by. Last but not least, late in a game you'll notice he wears down. I'm not sure if it is because his conditioning is a problem or because he's overcompensating with his upper body. His technique is actually pretty weak even for the college level but that's one reasons I think he has so much upside. If his o-line coach can correct it, his physical abilities are through the roof. The other side of that coin is if he doesn't correct those flaws, he'll be hurt more than most LT's. He gets his body so far out of position that he'll sustain a lot weird injuries. If you want him to be the elite LT you have to count on him year in and year out. Also in his second year, DE's looking at his technique are gonna try to set him up for more double moves and if they really want to be devious, they set it up so another player unloads on him from the side while the DE has got his upper body extended. I may be wrong, but that's the reason I ranked him the way I ranked him.

 

[JaxBill]

I like the list but I think I'd look at it more as terms of buckets.

IMO, from your list, I'd put Walter Jones through Ogden in the elite tier, Samuels thru barnes in the above average tier, Smith thru Jennings in the average tier and the rest in the below average tier.

 

[Despyzer]

Marcus McNeil did not give up a sack from his position all year, despite playing much of the season with two broken hands.

I believe you're thinking of holding penalties, not sacks. He didn't commit a holding penalty all year, but he did give up a few sacks (including two in one game to Jared Allen, I believe).

My mistake. Sorry.

 

[chris1969]

I like the list but I think I'd look at it more as terms of buckets.IMO, from your list, I'd put Walter Jones through Ogden in the elite tier, Samuels thru barnes in the above average tier, Smith thru Jennings in the average tier and the rest in the below average tier.

I like that idea! At least it gives people a barometer.

 

[chris1969]

What about left handed QBs?I thought the true strength of a LT was he protected the QBs blind side, which would be in reverse for a southpaw. And I'd take a stab that defensive schemes adjust to that reality accordingly. The last time the 49ers won a SuperBowl, Steve Young was the QB. I think Steve Wallace was the LT and the RT was Harris Barton? So in that situation would it be fair to rank Wallace on a list like this when it was Barton who really protected the blind side? Who out there is lefty? Leinart? Vick? Maybe Simms if Garcia gets hurt? If the point of the importance of the LT is the protection of the blindside, don't know if that's your intent, then shouldn't the list be blind side tackles instead of left tackles?

This is actually part of grading the o-lines as a whole. The most important thing is not what a lineman's job is, but how well he does it. After I rate all the guys at each position, I'm coming up with a team score that will be adjusted by several other factors like depth, injury risk, ect... The blindside thing should work itself out in the total. But thanks for being incitefull and making a contribution.