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Great Defensive Linemen playing together (1 Viewer)

Chase Stuart

Footballguy
You guys may remember this post about great linebackers playing on the same team during the peak years of their career. I've done the same thing for defensive lineman -- available here at the PFR blog.

Here's what I wrote in the beginning of the Shark Pool post on linebackers; the same thing applies for the DL table below.

This post is not a look at the greatest linebacking corps ever. We might attempt to do that one day, but today I’ve got another thought on my mind today. What teams have seen a bunch of great linebackers playing together while those players were in their primes?

The first thing we need to do is rate the linebackers. You could use Pro Bowl nominations, or games started, or some combination of sacks, turnovers and tackles. Here at PFR, Doug developed the Approximate Value system — it assigns an approximate value to measure the approximate contribution of each player in each season since 1950. While none of us claim that the Approximate Value system is a perfect measure of player performance, we believe it’s a big improvement on things like games started or other objective criteria one might use to create a set of inter-positional rankings.

You could simply look at a list of the top linebacker by AV per team for each season. For various reasons, I chose a different approach. I looked at the peak three years of every linebacker ever, and assigned that as a rating for each linebacker. Then I gave him an age adjusted score for each season. That age adjusted score is the rating I’m giving each linebacker for each season of play, not his actual AV grade.

....
More methodology discussion available here. I know you guys won't read that, though :goodposting: , so here's the very quick explanation.The number in parentheses is the player's age that season; the second number is a very approximate guess at his average value during his best seasons. Then based on a player's age (28-30 = very good, really young or really old = bad) and his APPROXIMATE value at his peak (18 = excellent; 10 = good; 5 = bad), I gave a score to each player for each age. Note that repeat seasons are deleted -- so the '85 Bears won't show up here since the '87 Bears had the exact same LBs and they ranked higher. And why are they ranked higher? Because Singletary at 29, Marshall at 25 and Wilson at 30 are assumed to be better than Singeltary at 27, Marshall at 23 and Wilston at 28. Actual production in any given season is not considered. This is not a look at the best LBs ever, or the best LB corps ever. Just a look at the best set of great linebackers playing at their best seasons for the same team.

As for approximate value, note that it's very approximate. All I'll say is it's better than any other method of ranking defensive players. But it's far from perfect. E.g., Swilling's peak value is 19.0 while LT's peak value is 18.0. Taylor was the better player, of course; the only thing I'll say about the approximate value system is generally, a group of players with a rating of 19.0 will be better than a group of players with a rating of 15.0. Certainly any one player at 18 can be better than any one player at 19.

So here is the list. Commentary on this list along with the same for 3-4 DL is available here: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=2370

Code:
min-1970   16.4   Carl Eller (28): 22		Alan Page (25): 23.7		Gary Larsen (30): 14.3	  Jim Marshall (33): 13.3ram-1967   14.6   Deacon Jones (29): 18	  Merlin Olsen (27): 18	   Roger Brown (30): 16		Lamar Lundy (32): 8.3dal-1981   14.3   Randy White (28): 17.7	 Too Tall Jones (30): 14.7   Harvey Martin (31): 14.3	John Dutton (30): 12chi-1987   14.1   Dan Hampton (30): 17.7	 Steve McMichael (30): 16.7  Richard Dent (27): 16.3	 William Perry (25): 8.7chi-1988   14.0   Dan Hampton (31): 17.7	 Richard Dent (28): 16.3	 Steve McMichael (31): 16.7  Al Harris (32): 8.7pit-1976   13.9   Joe Greene (30): 19		L.C. Greenwood (30): 16.3   Dwight White (27): 12	   Ernie Holmes (28): 9.3min-1974   13.8   Alan Page (29): 23.7	   Carl Eller (32): 22		 Doug Sutherland (26): 9.3   Jim Marshall (37): 13.3phi-1991   13.6   Reggie White (30): 20	  Clyde Simmons (27): 15.3	Jerome Brown (26): 13.3	 Mike Pitts (31): 8.7ram-1969   13.6   Merlin Olsen (29): 18	  Deacon Jones (31): 18	   Coy Bacon (27): 11		  Diron Talbert (25): 11chi-1984   13.6   Dan Hampton (27): 17.7	 Steve McMichael (27): 16.7  Richard Dent (24): 16.3	 Mike Hartenstine (31): 10.3ram-1968   13.5   Merlin Olsen (28): 18	  Deacon Jones (30): 18	   Roger Brown (31): 16		Gregg Schumacher (26): 3.7ram-1965   13.2   Deacon Jones (27): 18	  Merlin Olsen (25): 18	   Rosey Grier (33): 16.3	  Lamar Lundy (30): 8.3ram-1978   13.1   Jack Youngblood (28): 18   Larry Brooks (28): 13	   Fred Dryer (32): 14		 Cody Jones (27): 10cle-1953   13.1   Len Ford (27): 20.7		Don Colo (28): 15.3		 Doug Atkins (23): 16		Derrell Palmer (31): 8.3cle-1954   13.0   Len Ford (28): 20.7		Don Colo (29): 15.3		 John Kissell (31): 10	   Carlton Massey (24): 9.7cle-1957   13.0   Len Ford (31): 20.7		Don Colo (32): 15.3		 Bob Gain (28): 13		   Bill Quinlan (25): 8dal-1980   13.0   Randy White (27): 17.7	 Too Tall Jones (29): 14.7   Harvey Martin (30): 14.3	Larry Cole (34): 9.7pit-1977   12.9   Joe Greene (31): 19		L.C. Greenwood (31): 16.3   Dwight White (28): 12	   Steve Furness (27): 7tam-2002   12.8   Warren Sapp (30): 19	   Simeon Rice (28): 16.7	  Greg Spires (28): 9.3	   Anthony McFarland (25): 8.3phi-1990   12.7   Reggie White (29): 20	  Clyde Simmons (26): 15.3	Jerome Brown (25): 13.3	 Mike Golic (28): 6pit-1978   12.6   Joe Greene (32): 19		L.C. Greenwood (32): 16.3   Dwight White (29): 12	   John Banaszak (28): 8clt-1957   12.6   Gino Marchetti (30): 17.3  Gene Lipscomb (26): 13.7	Art Donovan (32): 13.7	  Don Joyce (28): 9.3nyg-1952   12.6   Arnie Weinmeister (29): 20 Ray Poole (31): 11.7		Ray Krouse (25): 12.7	   Jim Duncan (27): 9.3dal-1978   12.6   Randy White (25): 17.7	 Harvey Martin (28): 14.3	Too Tall Jones (27): 14.7   Jethro Pugh (34): 11.3min-1966   12.5   Carl Eller (24): 22		Jim Marshall (29): 13.3	 Gary Larsen (26): 14.3	  Paul Dickson (29): 8nyg-1959   12.5   Rosey Grier (27): 16.3	 Jim Katcavage (25): 16	  Andy Robustelli (34): 18.3  **** Modzelewski (28): 9min-1967   12.3   Carl Eller (25): 22		Jim Marshall (30): 13.3	 Alan Page (22): 23.7		Paul Dickson (30): 8ram-1976   12.3   Jack Youngblood (26): 18   Fred Dryer (30): 14		 Larry Brooks (26): 13	   Merlin Olsen (36): 18gnb-1962   12.2   Willie Davis (28): 17.3	Henry Jordan (27): 17	   Bill Quinlan (30): 8		Dave Hanner (32): 8.7nyg-1951   12.2   Arnie Weinmeister (28): 20 Ray Poole (30): 11.7		Al DeRogatis (24): 12.7	 Jim Duncan (26): 9.3ram-1979   12.0   Jack Youngblood (29): 18   Larry Brooks (29): 13	   Fred Dryer (33): 14		 Mike Fanning (26): 7clt-1960   12.0   Ordell Braase (28): 14	 Gene Lipscomb (29): 13.7	Gino Marchetti (33): 17.3   Art Donovan (35): 13.7rai-1995   11.9   Pat Swilling (31): 19	  Chester McGlockton (26): 14 Jerry Ball (31): 11.7	   Anthony Smith (28): 6.3chi-1983   11.9   Dan Hampton (26): 17.7	 Steve McMichael (26): 16.7  Mike Hartenstine (30): 10.3 Jim Osborne (34): 9.7min-1992   11.9   Chris Doleman (31): 16.7   John Randle (25): 16		Henry Thomas (27): 11	   Al Noga (27): 8.3sea-1999   11.8   Cortez Kennedy (31): 17	Sam Adams (26): 13.3		Michael Sinclair (31): 11   Phillip Daniels (26): 10tam-2001   11.8   Warren Sapp (29): 19	   Simeon Rice (27): 16.7	  Marcus Jones (28): 6.3	  Anthony McFarland (24): 8.3den-1997   11.8   Neil Smith (31): 15.3	  Michael Dean Perry (32): 16 Alfred Williams (29): 11	Keith Traylor (28): 8chi-1990   11.6   Richard Dent (30): 16.3	Dan Hampton (33): 17.7	  William Perry (28): 8.7	 Trace Armstrong (25): 10sea-1996   11.6   Cortez Kennedy (28): 17	Michael Sinclair (28): 11   Michael McCrary (26): 12	Sam Adams (23): 13.3
 
That Philly defense in '90 & '91 was tremendous. Shame it didn't last long. The loss of Jerome Brown was huge. Could have been dominant for years.

 
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Only three from the last 10 years, and two were the Bucs in consecutive years with one different player... :ouch:

Code:
tam-2002   12.8   Warren Sapp (30): 19	   Simeon Rice (28): 16.7	  Greg Spires (28): 9.3	   Anthony McFarland (25): 8.3tam-2001   11.8   Warren Sapp (29): 19	   Simeon Rice (27): 16.7	  Marcus Jones (28): 6.3	  Anthony McFarland (24): 8.3sea-1999   11.8   Cortez Kennedy (31): 17	Sam Adams (26): 13.3		Michael Sinclair (31): 11   Phillip Daniels (26): 10
 
Only three from the last 10 years, and two were the Bucs in consecutive years with one different player... :ouch:

Code:
tam-2002   12.8   Warren Sapp (30): 19	   Simeon Rice (28): 16.7	  Greg Spires (28): 9.3	   Anthony McFarland (25): 8.3tam-2001   11.8   Warren Sapp (29): 19	   Simeon Rice (27): 16.7	  Marcus Jones (28): 6.3	  Anthony McFarland (24): 8.3sea-1999   11.8   Cortez Kennedy (31): 17	Sam Adams (26): 13.3		Michael Sinclair (31): 11   Phillip Daniels (26): 10
that's what I noticed too. Kind of puts it into perspective as to how great those DL of the 70's were.eta: any correlation between quality of league DL and RB production, league wide?
 
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Where does the Jet's Sack Exchange dline rank?

Klecko, Salaam, Lyons and Goofineau were a really solid dline for a couple of seasons.

ETA _ Nevermind, I'm reading the article right now and see them specifically mentioned.

 
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Chicago make a well deserved strong showing. :popcorn:
According to the rankings, the 87 Bears had the fourth best group of defensive lineman in history and also the third best group of linebackers in history for a 4-3 defense.I wish I was just a bit older (age 9 in 87). To have seen Hampton, Dent, McMicheal, Perry, Singletary, Wilson, and Marshall and understand what I was seeing. I watch every old game from 84-90 that I can.
 
Only three from the last 10 years, and two were the Bucs in consecutive years with one different player... :ouch:

Code:
tam-2002   12.8   Warren Sapp (30): 19	   Simeon Rice (28): 16.7	  Greg Spires (28): 9.3	   Anthony McFarland (25): 8.3tam-2001   11.8   Warren Sapp (29): 19	   Simeon Rice (27): 16.7	  Marcus Jones (28): 6.3	  Anthony McFarland (24): 8.3sea-1999   11.8   Cortez Kennedy (31): 17	Sam Adams (26): 13.3		Michael Sinclair (31): 11   Phillip Daniels (26): 10
I noticed that too, and I don't have a good explanation why. Parity and free agency are the usual answers throw out to questions like these, but I find that is rarely the correct answer. It might be here, though.One thing I know for sure -- AV does a great job of giving equal treatment to players across different eras. Very modern players will be undervalued by this because those players may not have had three great seasons yet. But I'm not sure why there are so few DL groups from '91 to say, '04.
 
Chase Stuart said:
SuperJohn96 said:
Only three from the last 10 years, and two were the Bucs in consecutive years with one different player... :ouch:

Code:
tam-2002   12.8   Warren Sapp (30): 19	   Simeon Rice (28): 16.7	  Greg Spires (28): 9.3	   Anthony McFarland (25): 8.3tam-2001   11.8   Warren Sapp (29): 19	   Simeon Rice (27): 16.7	  Marcus Jones (28): 6.3	  Anthony McFarland (24): 8.3sea-1999   11.8   Cortez Kennedy (31): 17	Sam Adams (26): 13.3		Michael Sinclair (31): 11   Phillip Daniels (26): 10
I noticed that too, and I don't have a good explanation why. Parity and free agency are the usual answers throw out to questions like these, but I find that is rarely the correct answer. It might be here, though.One thing I know for sure -- AV does a great job of giving equal treatment to players across different eras. Very modern players will be undervalued by this because those players may not have had three great seasons yet. But I'm not sure why there are so few DL groups from '91 to say, '04.
How do the Passing Stats rate over the last decade? Without looking at anything, I'd say Passing is on the rise.Is it because we don't have as strong D-lines? Or have the D-Lines suffered over the last decade against better passing attacks?
 
How do the Passing Stats rate over the last decade? Without looking at anything, I'd say Passing is on the rise.Is it because we don't have as strong D-lines? Or have the D-Lines suffered over the last decade against better passing attacks?
The above list isn't saying that we don't have strong D-lines anymore; overall, DL grades will be the same every year (or just about). It's just that it appears the good ones are all on different teams now. But honestly I wouldn't even go that far based on the analysis I performed.
 
How do the Passing Stats rate over the last decade? Without looking at anything, I'd say Passing is on the rise.Is it because we don't have as strong D-lines? Or have the D-Lines suffered over the last decade against better passing attacks?
The above list isn't saying that we don't have strong D-lines anymore; overall, DL grades will be the same every year (or just about). It's just that it appears the good ones are all on different teams now. But honestly I wouldn't even go that far based on the analysis I performed.
The common sense idea is that keeping together or trying to accumulate a group is much much harder with the salary cap and free agency of today. The Steelers, Vikings, or Bears would not have been able to keep together their tremendous groups of defenders in today's financial era.
 
I think the recent giants teams are hurt by Strahan being not in peak, but Osi in peak. we might see the new look G-Men crack this list.

 
I think the recent giants teams are hurt by Strahan being not in peak, but Osi in peak. we might see the new look G-Men crack this list.
agreeThey slipped my mind.Only Kiwi hasn't made pro bowl right? 4 pro bowlers soon enough and a title (arguably) won by them
 
where's 86 Giants?none of the Pats Supe teams qualify?
The Pats actually look best going forward; there was a time when it looked like Seymour/Wilfork/Warren was going to be deadly for years. They still have high grades in my system and ranked well in '08 and will again in '09 if all three start. It's easy to forget that last year all three men were still under 30.The '86 giants were solid, but George Martin was already 33 and Leonard Marshall is probably undervalued in this system. He was "just" 25 in '86, but he only made two Pro Bowls in his career -- at ages 24 and 25. To the extent that the Pro Bowl nominations reflected his ability, he's a rare guy who peaked super early. This system would think his best years would be in the '89-'91 years, not '86.
 
Chicago make a well deserved strong showing. :mellow:
According to the rankings, the 87 Bears had the fourth best group of defensive lineman in history and also the third best group of linebackers in history for a 4-3 defense.I wish I was just a bit older (age 9 in 87). To have seen Hampton, Dent, McMicheal, Perry, Singletary, Wilson, and Marshall and understand what I was seeing. I watch every old game from 84-90 that I can.
Very entertaining to watch the Bears back then.Although I am a Viking fan I have a lot of respect for the Bears defense back in the 80's. Best I have seen.The most memorable play for me was Steve "the animal" McMichael somehow jumping right over the guard and totaly crushing the QB. Yes he climbed right over the guard and used him as a ledge to jump off from. And this happened very quickly. 1.5-2 seconds before the QB was killed.Guess that is what you get for trying to win the leverage game.
 
where's 86 Giants?none of the Pats Supe teams qualify?
The Pats actually look best going forward; there was a time when it looked like Seymour/Wilfork/Warren was going to be deadly for years. They still have high grades in my system and ranked well in '08 and will again in '09 if all three start. It's easy to forget that last year all three men were still under 30.The '86 giants were solid, but George Martin was already 33 and Leonard Marshall is probably undervalued in this system. He was "just" 25 in '86, but he only made two Pro Bowls in his career -- at ages 24 and 25. To the extent that the Pro Bowl nominations reflected his ability, he's a rare guy who peaked super early. This system would think his best years would be in the '89-'91 years, not '86.
thanks for clarifying
 

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