Gun Control Laws - Where are we really? Where to go? (1 Viewer)

[KarmaPolice]

You don't know that. We haven't actually tried it.

It's just absurd that this logic is applied here. If one applies that same logic to literally ANY other law, the flaw is easily seen, however, with guns, it becomes perfectly logical. It's so ridiculously weird. Is it going to stop all of them? No. Is there a single law ever created that stops criminals 100% of the time, no. And around and around and around and around we go.

This topic has to be the most common where that line of thinking shows up too.

 

[Max Power]

Shooter was a 19 year old with known mental health issues. Former student who graduated last year.

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

Shooter was a 19 year old with known mental health issues. Former student who graduated last year.

This seems to be a fairly common profile. Male, by the way, as well. It’s too bad there’s enough of these criminals to construct a profile. Not saying this is always the case, but there’s a pretty consistent pattern it seems.

 

[Stealthycat]

You don't know that. We haven't actually tried it.

yes, we know this

how many laws/rules/restrictions are there that says do not take a gun to a school and shoot people ? 500 ? 1,000 ?

a lot


people walk through them - and when evil people do things like this, the core problem isn't the weapon they're using, its the evil person

 

[The Z Machine]

the core problem isn't the weapon they're using, its the evil person

Right... There's just so many more evil people per capita in the USA compared to other countries. It's not the massive difference in the number of firearms per capita. Sure.

 

[Stealthycat]

Right... There's just so many more evil people per capita in the USA compared to other countries. It's not the massive difference in the number of firearms per capita. Sure.

that's true, because we have a Constitution that grans US Citizens many freedoms other countries don't have/allow

with those freedoms comes responsibilities ......... the exceptionally few that want to abuse those freedoms needs dealt with, absolutely. lets focus on them

 

[Max Power]

You don't know that. We haven't actually tried it.

yes, we know this

how many laws/rules/restrictions are there that says do not take a gun to a school and shoot people ? 500 ? 1,000 ?

a lot


people walk through them - and when evil people do things like this, the core problem isn't the weapon they're using, its the evil person

Its mental health as well. America is the midst of a mental health surge we have never seen before. I don't have a good answer on how we should identify mental health risks vs 2A rights.

There seems to be a common misconception that passing more gun laws makes everyone safer. I'd entertain laws that make sense and don't infringe too much on gun ownership. The calls to "just do something!" about gun control are on the same level as passing along thoughts and prayers after a shooting.

 

[Stealthycat]

Its mental health as well. America is the midst of a mental health surge we have never seen before. I don't have a good answer on how we should identify mental health risks vs 2A rights.

There seems to be a common misconception that passing more gun laws makes everyone safer. I'd entertain laws that make sense and don't infringe too much on gun ownership. The calls to "just do something!" about gun control are on the same level as passing along thoughts and prayers after a shooting.

if mentally ill = violent = untrustworthy .......... we need to stop those people because they're a danger to society

right ?

 

[Max Power]

Its mental health as well. America is the midst of a mental health surge we have never seen before. I don't have a good answer on how we should identify mental health risks vs 2A rights.

There seems to be a common misconception that passing more gun laws makes everyone safer. I'd entertain laws that make sense and don't infringe too much on gun ownership. The calls to "just do something!" about gun control are on the same level as passing along thoughts and prayers after a shooting.

if mentally ill = violent = untrustworthy .......... we need to stop those people because they're a danger to society

right ?

We categorize too many things as mentally illness for my tastes. Not all are violent or untrustworthy. Take returning war vets with PTSD, depression, alcoholism, and such. I don't think those people are a danger to society so it really becomes a too fine of line to walk imo. I want to get guns out of the wrong hands, but I'm not for restricting gun ownership of average citizens or passing laws that could criminalize gun owners who responsibly own firearms.

 

[Stealthycat]

We categorize too many things as mentally illness for my tastes. Not all are violent or untrustworthy. Take returning war vets with PTSD, depression, alcoholism, and such. I don't think those people are a danger to society so it really becomes a too fine of line to walk imo. I want to get guns out of the wrong hands, but I'm not for restricting gun ownership of average citizens or passing laws that could criminalize gun owners who responsibly own firearms.

true but how can you separate them all ?

I guess find a way to do it - institutionalize the ones who can harm themselves and others is probably the best solution.

 

[The Z Machine]

that's true, because we have a Constitution that grans US Citizens many freedoms other countries don't have/allow

with those freedoms comes responsibilities ......... the exceptionally few that want to abuse those freedoms needs dealt with, absolutely. lets focus on them

Yup, we get the responsibility of burying thousands of people due to gun violence (including innocent children gunned down in schools) every year while other societies don't.

 

[Stealthycat]

Yup, we get the responsibility of burying thousands of people due to gun violence (including innocent children gunned down in schools) every year while other societies don't.

how many have we buried for

1. knife violence
2. fists violence
3. ball bat violence

No? none of those are called blank violence .......... its called "gun" violence but its only called that to generate a reaction. Its no more "gun" than it is knife, fist of bat is it ? no ............ its violence


lets work to stop the violence and the violent people ........... you know, the core problem

 

[Terminalxylem]

You don't know that. We haven't actually tried it.

yes, we know this

how many laws/rules/restrictions are there that says do not take a gun to a school and shoot people ? 500 ? 1,000 ?

a lot


people walk through them - and when evil people do things like this, the core problem isn't the weapon they're using, its the evil person

Its mental health as well. America is the midst of a mental health surge we have never seen before. I don't have a good answer on how we should identify mental health risks vs 2A rights.

There seems to be a common misconception that passing more gun laws makes everyone safer. I'd entertain laws that make sense and don't infringe too much on gun ownership. The calls to "just do something!" about gun control are on the same level as passing along thoughts and prayers after a shooting.

There is data that specific gun control policies make people safer, summarized Here and Here.

Across all of the 18 policies that we examined, only two—child-access prevention laws and stand-your-ground laws—had evidence that we classified as supportive, our highest evidence rating, for an effect on a particular outcome. Specifically, there is supportive evidence that child-access prevention laws reduce firearm self-injuries (including suicides) and unintentional firearm injuries and deaths among children In addition, we found supportive evidence that stand-your-ground laws increase firearm homicides.

We found moderate evidence, our second-highest evidence rating, that dealer background checks reduce firearm homicides. Most of the studies in this area examined the effects of dealer background checks or the combined effects of dealer and private-seller background checks when both are required by a state. Therefore, the evidence base for universal background checks—that is, background checks for all sales, public and private—is quite limited compared with that for the dealer background checks currently required under federal law. Of course, if there is moderate evidence that dealer background checks reduce firearm homicides, it seems likely that extending background checks to private sales of firearms could further reduce those deaths. But we must emphasize that currently available research on this question is insufficient to prove that conclusion.

We also found moderate evidence that waiting periods reduce rates of firearm suicide and total homicide and that some gun possession prohibitions associated with domestic violence reduce intimate partner homicides.

Admittedly, the database is incomplete (in part because the NRA stymied research for years), but coupled with the well-established association between stringency of gun regulation and firearm deaths (in the US and abroad), I’d hardly characterize the beliefs of gun control advocates as “misconceptions”.

On the contrary, you’d be hard-pressed to provide an evidenced-based argument that less gun regulation makes Americans safer. Dogmatically pointing to 2A doesn’t cut it IMO.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Its mental health as well. America is the midst of a mental health surge we have never seen before. I don't have a good answer on how we should identify mental health risks vs 2A rights.

There seems to be a common misconception that passing more gun laws makes everyone safer. I'd entertain laws that make sense and don't infringe too much on gun ownership. The calls to "just do something!" about gun control are on the same level as passing along thoughts and prayers after a shooting.

if mentally ill = violent = untrustworthy .......... we need to stop those people because they're a danger to society

right ?

We categorize too many things as mentally illness for my tastes. Not all are violent or untrustworthy. Take returning war vets with PTSD, depression, alcoholism, and such. I don't think those people are a danger to society so it really becomes a too fine of line to walk imo. I want to get guns out of the wrong hands, but I'm not for restricting gun ownership of average citizens or passing laws that could criminalize gun owners who responsibly own firearms.

PTSD and substance abuse are associated with increased risk of violence, and vets have higher rates of those mental illnesses than the general population.

The best epidemiological evidence on violence and PTSD comes from studies of the U.S. general population and of post-9/11 Veterans in the U.S. and the United Kingdom. According to these studies, the prevalence of violence among individuals with PTSD ranged from 7.5% among US adults to 8.6% to 19.5% among post-9/11 Veterans (2-4). In the same studies, the prevalence of violence ranged from 2.0% in US adults with no mental health disorders and 3.0 to 6.4% among post-9/11 Veterans without PTSD.

There have been no comparable studies of PTSD and violence in other Veteran cohorts. However, a large epidemiological study of Vietnam and Vietnam-era Veterans that was conducted in the mid-1980s examined intimate partner violence (ranging from slapping and pushing to using a knife or gun), and found that 33.0% of Veterans with PTSD compared to 13.5% of those without PTSD reported intimate partner violence in the past year (1).

 

[Stealthycat]

There is data that specific gun control policies make people safer, summarized Here and Here.

funny thing about rules/laws/restrictions .... they're only good if people follow them

from your link "For four of the outcomes we studied— defensive gun use, hunting and recreation, mass shootings, and officer-involved shootings—we found inconclusive evidence, at best, on the effects of any of the policies."


how many laws did Orlando Harris break shooting the school up in St Louis ? the answer is dozens and dozens - more laws wouldn't have stopped him either

now, what DID stop Harris? a good guy with a gun ......... and had the school security had guns or the teachers, they might have been able to put him down without anyone students/staff being injured. Guns are good, they are what can be used to stop the bad guys who are trying to hurt people. the core problem - the bad guys

 

[Stealthycat]

PTSD and substance abuse are associated with increased risk of violence, and vets have higher rates of those mental illnesses than the general population.

veterans would go head first into a school shooting and lay their lives down for the kids in order to stop a school shooting without hesitation

please don't disrespect our veterans

 

[Stealthycat]

St. Louis school shooter's family sought mental health treatment for him and had his gun taken away, police said. Yet tragedy still unfolded | CNN

When family members of 19-year-old Orlando Harris grew concerned about his mental health, they seemed to do everything right, the St. Louis police commissioner said.

www.cnn.com

known mental health problems, got as much help as they could ............. these are the kind of people you lock away in insane asylums, they're too great a risk to themselves and others, do you agree ?



a couple of things on that article - what kind of rifle is that? off looking, like home made ?

"The security guards stationed in the district’s schools are not armed" ............ worthless for the most part then bring literally nothing to a gun fight


Matt Davis is wrong "“I know what would have been different is if this high-powered rifle was not available to this individual. That would have made the difference.”"

That kind of person would have got a shotgun and did massive damage - Matt Davis is uneducated on violence, and what the core problem is

 

[Stealthycat]

I doubt we ever hear how this guy got that gun, or the ammunition or how he got into a fully locked school ............. but those things are really important