Had Griffey never had that horrific injury (1 Viewer)

[Deranged Hermit]

A buddy and I were arguing yesterday about Ken Griffey:

* I was of the belief that had Junior never had that injury in his first year in Cincy, we'd be talking about him as the best player of all time in MLB. He'd likely have at least 100 HR's added to his total and Bonds' chase would be almost meaningless because Griffey would pass him in two years anyway.

*My buddy disagreed saying that he was over-rated and struggled when he didn't have a lineup with A-Rod, Buhner, and Martinez protecting him.

What say the Baseball forum?

 

[Anthony Borbely]

I don't know about the greatest, but I would definitely have him very high. He would be making a run at the HR record. He would easily have 700 right now if not for all of his injuries. We would be talking about him going for 800. His talent is just sick.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

from what I heard recently, if you take his HR/year average during the years before his injury and pro-rate it over his entire career as if he had stayed healthy, he'd be at around 850 HR right now

 

[Anthony Borbely]

from what I heard recently, if you take his HR/year average during the years before his injury and pro-rate it over his entire career as if he had stayed healthy, he'd be at around 850 HR right now

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

greatest of all time if healthy, same could be said about mickey mantle though, No?

Injuries are part of the game

 

[Greco]

Sweetest left handed swing of all time. Great glove man. Babe, Willie, Hank, Mickey, Junior. So I say even with injury, top 5. Still not greatest ever without injury. Babe Ruth 4EVAH.

 

[Sammy3469]

from what I heard recently, if you take his HR/year average during the years before his injury and pro-rate it over his entire career as if he had stayed healthy, he'd be at around 850 HR right now

He was only really hurt for those 3 years. If you give him 20 more HRs each of those years, he'd be sitting around 650 right now. To put it into some perspective Bonds had something like 567 at the same age (ESPN had the comparison on this morning), so even at this point Griff is ahead of his pace. Of course Griff is coming up to some Bonds superhuman years, so the comparison is a little off, but Griff has been pretty "historic" in any respect.Edit: the 850 number comes from prorating his pace over something like 22 years or until he's 42ish

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Edit: the 850 number comes from prorating his pace over something like 22 years or until he's 42ish

my bad. yeah, they must have been saying if he played as long as Bonds has and kept his same average during his pre-injury career, he'd be at 850. that makes more sense.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

from what I heard recently, if you take his HR/year average during the years before his injury and pro-rate it over his entire career as if he had stayed healthy, he'd be at around 850 HR right now

He was only really hurt for those 3 years. If you give him 20 more HRs each of those years, he'd be sitting around 650 right now. To put it into some perspective Bonds had something like 567 at the same age (ESPN had the comparison on this morning), so even at this point Griff is ahead of his pace. Of course Griff is coming up to some Bonds superhuman years, so the comparison is a little off, but Griff has been pretty "historic" in any respect.Edit: the 850 number comes from prorating his pace over something like 22 years or until he's 42ish

 

[ThisGuy]

greatest of all time if healthy, same could be said about mickey mantle though, No?Injuries are part of the game

Griffey is not, nor has he ever been overrated.

 

[David Yudkin]

By my math . . .

From 96-00, Griffey averaged .326 HR/game. He's missed a fair amount of time in 8 seasons. Assuming he played 150 games in the years he got hurt, he missed 465 games. Assuming he could have kept the same HR rate (unlikely but fun to do anyway) . . .

465 * .326 = 152 more home runs

153+ 587 = 739 home runs at this point in his career

 

[Bob Henry]

from what I heard recently, if you take his HR/year average during the years before his injury and pro-rate it over his entire career as if he had stayed healthy, he'd be at around 850 HR right now

He was only really hurt for those 3 years. If you give him 20 more HRs each of those years, he'd be sitting around 650 right now. To put it into some perspective Bonds had something like 567 at the same age (ESPN had the comparison on this morning), so even at this point Griff is ahead of his pace. Of course Griff is coming up to some Bonds superhuman years, so the comparison is a little off, but Griff has been pretty "historic" in any respect.Edit: the 850 number comes from prorating his pace over something like 22 years or until he's 42ish

Yep, they were talking about this on Mike & Mike this morning (unless I'm getting myself confused from surfing the dial on the way in this morning).

 

[Koya]

Greatest EVER? No. He still is the greatest of our generation (Bonds gets eliminated for his cheating, and pre roid's I would put him behind Griff because he had a lot less power and was not close defensively), which so many seem to forget. For a full ten years, Griff was the "best player in baseball" - but then roids took over and 55 HRs with stellar defense didnt seem the same.

That said, had he not been injured Griff would be argued for the top 5-10 players ever and after the Mays/Dimaggio tier of CFs, he would be right there.

 

[the moops]

Greatest EVER? No. He still is the greatest of our generation (Bonds gets eliminated for his cheating, and pre roid's I would put him behind Griff because he had a lot less power and was not close defensively), which so many seem to forget. For a full ten years, Griff was the "best player in baseball" - but then roids took over and 55 HRs with stellar defense didnt seem the same.That said, had he not been injured Griff would be argued for the top 5-10 players ever and after the Mays/Dimaggio tier of CFs, he would be right there.

Griffey is probably third best of this generation. Behind Bonds and A-Rod. No way he would have put up any season numbers like Bonds did. And S-Rod wil have the career numbers that will surpass Griffey.

 

[cobalt_27]

Griffey is probably third second best of this generation. Behind Ahead of Bonds and behind A-Rod.

Fixed for accuracy.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Griffey is probably the third best of this generation. Behind Bonds and behind A-Rod.

When I'm not acting like such a tool I enjoy the piano and walking in the woods with my boyfriend Paul. I love baseball, it's so great! Thanks for posting.

 

[MrPhoenix]

Griffey is probably the third best of this generation. Behind Bonds and behind A-Rod.

When I'm not acting like such a tool I enjoy the piano and walking in the woods with my boyfriend Paul. I love baseball, it's so great! Thanks for posting.

 

[commisholio]

Griffey is probably the third best of this generation. Behind Bonds and behind A-Rod.

When I'm not acting like such a tool I enjoy the piano and walking in the woods with my boyfriend Paul. I love baseball, it's so great! Thanks for posting.

lol

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

greatest of all time if healthy, same could be said about mickey mantle though, No?

Injuries are part of the game

Griffey is not, nor has he ever been overrated.

Please see the Stats 1995 Baseball ScoreboardHere is a summary from Stats 1996 Baseball Scoreboard

A year ago, we devoted six pages to the possibility that maybe we were wrong about Griffey, that perhaps something in our methodology [Zone Ratings] was penalizing Junior unfairly. Well, we looked at it every way we could think of, almost hoping to find something wrong ... but our conclusion was no different: Griffey simply isn't as good [defensively] as people think.

Griffey was considered for most of his career as one of the best defensive players ever, yet his defensive statistics are below average for most of those seasons. (Bonds, statistically is above average defensively.)

 

[dparker713]

No player ever will be as dominant as Babe Ruth was when he played. If you wanted to talk about #2 all time, then go right ahead, but you might as well carve #1 in stone for eternity.

 

[Despyzer]

By my math . . .

From 96-00, Griffey averaged .326 HR/game. He's missed a fair amount of time in 8 seasons. Assuming he played 150 games in the years he got hurt, he missed 465 games. Assuming he could have kept the same HR rate (unlikely but fun to do anyway) . . .

465 * .326 = 152 more home runs

153+ 587 = 739 home runs at this point in his career

Historically, good swingers tend to add HR production at about the time that Griffey started experiencing injuries. I don't think it's unlikely at all that he could have kept up that pace.

 

[SofaKings]

I loved watching Griff roam the outfield in old Tiger Stadium. He's a special talent.

 

[Koya]

Greatest EVER? No. He still is the greatest of our generation (Bonds gets eliminated for his cheating, and pre roid's I would put him behind Griff because he had a lot less power and was not close defensively), which so many seem to forget. For a full ten years, Griff was the "best player in baseball" - but then roids took over and 55 HRs with stellar defense didnt seem the same.That said, had he not been injured Griff would be argued for the top 5-10 players ever and after the Mays/Dimaggio tier of CFs, he would be right there.

Griffey is probably third best of this generation. Behind Bonds and A-Rod. No way he would have put up any season numbers like Bonds did. And S-Rod wil have the career numbers that will surpass Griffey.

I always considered A-Rod as joining just enough after Griff however during the 10 year span during which Griff was widely considered the "best player in baseball" A-Rod had not yet reached his peak. By the time Griff got hurt though, A-Rod perhaps was the best player in the game.He is not before pre-roid's Bonds however, with Defense (and position) perhaps being the determining factor.

 

[David Yudkin]

By my math . . .

From 96-00, Griffey averaged .326 HR/game. He's missed a fair amount of time in 8 seasons. Assuming he played 150 games in the years he got hurt, he missed 465 games. Assuming he could have kept the same HR rate (unlikely but fun to do anyway) . . .

465 * .326 = 152 more home runs

153+ 587 = 739 home runs at this point in his career

Historically, good swingers tend to add HR production at about the time that Griffey started experiencing injuries. I don't think it's unlikely at all that he could have kept up that pace.

In a 162-game season, that worked out to an average of 53 HR a year. Not too many guys have been able to keep that up for very long. If Griffey kept pace with the other power hitters, then maybe, but that may have had to involve some medicinal help.

 

[cobalt_27]

Griffey is probably the third best of this generation. Behind Bonds and behind A-Rod.

When I'm not acting like such a tool I enjoy the piano and walking in the woods with my boyfriend Paul. I love baseball, it's so great! Thanks for posting.

Good stuff, DD.

 

[PrestonV20]

i saw a stat on tv that if he kept his home run pace that he had with the reds.... he is missing out on about 115 homers. This puts him right around 700. Either way "the kid" was and is a stud. He needs to go back to his home, SEATTLE!!!

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Griffey is probably the third best of this generation. Behind Bonds and behind A-Rod.

When I'm not acting like such a tool I enjoy the piano and walking in the woods with my boyfriend Paul. I love baseball, it's so great! Thanks for posting.

Good stuff, DD.

:(

 

[Greco]

I loved watching Griff roam the outfield in old Tiger Stadium. He's a special talent.

Bleachers were where it was at, my friend. I remember chanting as a bleacher creature "Griffey Sucks! Griffey Sucks!" and the whole time he was giving us the bird behind his back in rythm with the chant. Crowd roared with appreciation and he turned and flashed that million dollar smile. And remember how much Sparky Anderson feared/respected him? "Old days, good times I remember"...

 

[[scooter]]

Extrapolating Griffey's stats from all the seasons where he missed more than 20 games, here's how many homers he missed out on:

1994 - 18 HRs

1995 - 21 HRs

1996 - 7 HRs

2001 - 10 HRs

2002 - 10 HRs

2003 - 27 HRs

2004 - 19 HRs

2005 - 9 HRs

2006 - 13 HRs

Total missed HRs: 134

Add that to his actual total of 587 and he'd have 721 HRs right now -- and that doesn't even account for the fact that Griffey's production dipped significantly after his first injury in Cincinnati. Had Griffey remained healthy his entire career AND kept up the home run production that he had in Seattle, he'd be sitting on about 780 home runs right now.

 

[SofaKings]

I loved watching Griff roam the outfield in old Tiger Stadium. He's a special talent.

Bleachers were where it was at, my friend. I remember chanting as a bleacher creature "Griffey Sucks! Griffey Sucks!" and the whole time he was giving us the bird behind his back in rythm with the chant. Crowd roared with appreciation and he turned and flashed that million dollar smile. And remember how much Sparky Anderson feared/respected him? "Old days, good times I remember"...

I would not have participated in such a chant.

 

[posty]

He would be one of the best of our generation...

 

[Koya]

He would be one of the best of our generation...

Did you miss a decade? He IS one of the best of our generation.

 

[Despyzer]

He would be one of the best of our generation...

Did you miss a decade? He IS one of the best of our generation.

Are you sure?13 All-star appearances'97 MVP (Top Ten in voting 7 times)10 gold gloves7 silver sluggersTop 25 all-time slugging (.556)Top 25 all-time total bases (4797)Top 25 all-time RBIs (1673)5th all-time intentional walks (227)6th all-time HRs (587)140 OPS+

 

[Koya]

He would be one of the best of our generation...

Did you miss a decade? He IS one of the best of our generation.

Are you sure?13 All-star appearances'97 MVP (Top Ten in voting 7 times)10 gold gloves7 silver sluggersTop 25 all-time slugging (.556)Top 25 all-time total bases (4797)Top 25 all-time RBIs (1673)5th all-time intentional walks (227)6th all-time HRs (587)140 OPS+

(you are being sarcastic and agreeing with me, yes? No way Griff was not one of his generations best. His injury only precluded his chance to be one of the top 5 ever and a near shoo-in for top 10 ever)

 

[Despyzer]

you are being sarcastic and agreeing with me, yes?

Yes, he is absolutely one of the best of of our generation. I couldn't imagine anyone actually questioning that. Without his injury, I think we would be remarking on him being THE greatest of our generation and one of the greatest of ALL TIME.