Has Antsports LOWERED its payouts? (1 Viewer)

[Bailiver]

I usually enter 2-3 antsports leagues a year. In the past, I remember getting 80-85% payout of the league fees. Now it is down to 65-70% in the $50, $100 redraft leagues.

I am surprised that with the number of alternatives out there that Antsports would actually LOWER the payouts.

Weird.

 

[Snickersnack]

I usually enter 2-3 antsports leagues a year. In the past, I remember getting 80-85% payout of the league fees. Now it is down to 65-70% in the $50, $100 redraft leagues.

I am surprised that with the number of alternatives out there that Antsports would actually LOWER the payouts.

Weird.

There is a link on one of their home pages to an explanation. Apparently the credit card processing problem is related to the fact that they are being asked to pay almost double the fees of previous years to the credit card companies because the banks are telling them they have been reclassified as a gambling site.Personally, I think that the game of skill element overshadows any gambling element, but someone is going to have to sue to make that stick. And these days everyone has an Arbitration clause to prevent lawsuits, so who knows if that would do any good or not.

But basically, if you double the primary costs to an FF site, it has to come from somewhere, and Steve is forced to reduce payouts. In some cases he has eliminated payouts to lower places in order to prop the payouts to higher ones, but there is a reduction at every level of some sort.

This same problem is why he is delayed getting a credit card company to process his credit card orders. Last I checked, he was forced to accept pay-by-check enrollment only, though he may have corrected that by now.

Here is the link to a full explanation: http://www.antsports.com/info/New_2006.aspx

 

[Longshot88]

I usually enter 2-3 antsports leagues a year.  In the past, I remember getting 80-85% payout of the league fees.  Now it is down to 65-70% in the $50, $100 redraft leagues.

I am surprised that with the number of alternatives out there that Antsports would actually LOWER the payouts.

Weird.

There is a link on one of their home pages to an explanation. Apparently the credit card processing problem is related to the fact that they are being asked to pay almost double the fees of previous years to the credit card companies because the banks are telling them they have been reclassified as a gambling site.Personally, I think that the game of skill element overshadows any gambling element, but someone is going to have to sue to make that stick. And these days everyone has an Arbitration clause to prevent lawsuits, so who knows if that would do any good or not.

But basically, if you double the primary costs to an FF site, it has to come from somewhere, and Steve is forced to reduce payouts. In some cases he has eliminated payouts to lower places in order to prop the payouts to higher ones, but there is a reduction at every level of some sort.

This same problem is why he is delayed getting a credit card company to process his credit card orders. Last I checked, he was forced to accept pay-by-check enrollment only, though he may have corrected that by now.

Here is the link to a full explanation: http://www.antsports.com/info/New_2006.aspx

Hey Snickersnack....I am from Vincennes,IN small world huh.....anyway.. I am Still debating returning to my antsports leagues..it seems there has to be away around these fees....I like the format there ,(3 man Keeper) but this seems like big cut in too our money...Also I dont like the new rule for gametime subsitution.Alowing a sub.. Incase one of your players doesnt start... ..thats part of the Game...Taking chances on who to start if they are questionable..

 

[Holy Schneikes]

Well, Antsports can charge whatever they want, and if the market will support it, good for them. But the math on that explanation page doesn't add up.

He blames the payout descrease on bank fees, which he claims went from 2.5% to "over 5%". Cool - that means you can drop payouts by about 2.5% right?

Nope, they drop by about 15% or 20% (based on original post - I don't personally remember). So either there is some other increase in operating costs, or he wants to make more profit, or both, but to blame everything on a 2.5% increase in credit card fees seems a bit lame to me.

 

[Snickersnack]

Also I dont like the new rule for gametime subsitution.Alowing a sub.. Incase one of your players doesnt start... ..thats part of the Game...Taking chances on who to start if they are questionable..

Yes, its a small world, indeed. I actually like the sub rule, though I think he is timing it bad, since changes in established rules will often cause attrition before resulting in growth, and he is already going to have an attrition problem with the credit card and payout troubles.But the reasons I like it are several.

One, Steve has always tried to reduce the 'luck factor' influence on the game in everyway possible short of a round robin format. Its why he designed the victory point system, among other changes he has implemented over the years. This change just eliminates the detrimental effect of the unlucky injury a bit. Now, the first guy who loses a game he would have won if his opponent's gametime decision hadn't had a sub is going to holler louder than anyone, but it IS the gametime decision this is primarily meant to resolve.

Two, it enhances the strategic value of all your bench players, and that is a real tactical edge over leagues that do not use this option. It still requires skill and preparation to have a decent sub ready and choose the right one. Giving benchwarmers an actual use besides what we are used to is an enhancement to the concept of team building.

Three, innovation has always been one of Steve's specialties, his niche so-to-speak. It is a dynamic and competitive environment, the fantasy football league market, and he has to play to his strengths. If it turns out that the "Game Time Decision" feature is not widely liked after thoroughly tested, he will either nix it or make it optional, like some of his scoring features. But as is, its a selling point, a trademarkable feature that he can use to differentiate his product from the competition's. Which he needs because his site is not the prettiest, smoothest run, or most intuitively setup. Those are not his strengths, but they are areas where he could, if he got the time or the staff, eventually 'catch up' to the rest of the world and improve his draw even more.

As for it being part of the game, the rules are what make it part of the game...change the rules, you change the game.

 

[Raskell5]

Well, Antsports can charge whatever they want, and if the market will support it, good for them. But the math on that explanation page doesn't add up.

He blames the payout descrease on bank fees, which he claims went from 2.5% to "over 5%". Cool - that means you can drop payouts by about 2.5% right?

Nope, they drop by about 15% or 20% (based on original post - I don't personally remember). So either there is some other increase in operating costs, or he wants to make more profit, or both, but to blame everything on a 2.5% increase in credit card fees seems a bit lame to me.

 

[Snickersnack]

So either there is some other increase in operating costs, or he wants to make more profit, or both, but to blame everything on a 2.5% increase in credit card fees seems a bit lame to me.

I have no inside line on what those extra costs might be, but consider that the delay in collecting league fees has been significant, that chatter on many boards was indicating that a lot of his customers were already switching to other sites because of the delay, and that now he may also have no way to accept credit card payments in a timely fashion...it all translates to lost business. That is a cost. If, like most people who become accustomed to a steady growth rate in their income stream, he increased his lifestyle costs, or even just his other business costs (like staff or bandwidth) in line with expectations of continued growth, and now he is looking to suffer a loss instead...this is ground that has to be made up for somewhere. If you have decreasing sales (for all the above reasons) the only way to maintain a profit margin, or even to simply meet operating costs which stayed the same while your gross dropped, is to lower other costs. The easiest cost to control in his business model is likely the payout...You cant always assume the worst. The world sometimes warrants it, but business is usually just business. Steve knows that these kinds of feelings are going to arise and if he didn't have to risk losing the goodwill, he wouldn't do it. That makes the least sense of all.

 

[BigTex]

Well, Antsports can charge whatever they want, and if the market will support it, good for them. But the math on that explanation page doesn't add up.

He blames the payout descrease on bank fees, which he claims went from 2.5% to "over 5%". Cool - that means you can drop payouts by about 2.5% right?

Nope, they drop by about 15% or 20% (based on original post - I don't personally remember). So either there is some other increase in operating costs, or he wants to make more profit, or both, but to blame everything on a 2.5% increase in credit card fees seems a bit lame to me.

Good post HS,

I'll be looking else, to Antsports.

 

[Snickersnack]

Before you assume that you are being ripped off, if you have a question about why something is being done (and I'll warrant that if the math doesn't add up, you certainly have a good question) you should ask for an answer.

One reason I do try to participate in at least one league a year at Antsports is because Steve (owner/operator), unlike most site owners, has a toll-free number, which if you call it during business hours and allow that as a busy number you may have to try a few times, he will personally answer and handle your call. I have, over the years, had to call him for maybe one issue or another, on average, about once a year. He has never failed to resolve my complaints, whether it be with a problem league member, a technical issue, a billing question, whatever. If you call him, he will tell you straight up whatever you want to know, I assure you. His number is 1-888-444-4ANT or 1-888-444-4265. An answering machine picks up after hours, and it can be frequently busy during the day, but I always get through eventually. He also answers e-mails on about a 2-3 day lag ( AntSports@Yahoo.com ), but its quicker to use the phone.

Now I'll concede that Antsports has some issues, like this year's credit card thing, and that it has never been a slick site. But I give it props for some of things it does right, like the toll-free number (I can not name one other site that has one; sure there are some, but I know the big sites do not, and I haven't seen one for any other site I use). Antsports was one of the pioneers on ADP info, and still feeds that info to the FF community. It was one of the mock draft and free Survivor league pioneers. There aren't a lot of places you can play a somewhat casual trophy league for less than $15, and in return for my sole Antsports trophy league entry last year ($13 at the time) I got a free subscription to The Sporting News paid up till late 2007. I have in the last few years enjoyed free subscriptions to Maxim, FHM, and Stuff, courtesy of Antsports also, and when they each expired, I did not have any hassles from the magazine companies for not renewing them. With my three user accounts there, I will be entered at least 4 times in his annual free survivor leagues trying to win whatever he gives away (last year was a nice HD tv).

There are, no doubt, slicker sites, with better features. But Steve does enough right, that I am not giving up my one piddly trophy league and all the free perks that come with it annually just because he is having some trouble with the greedy banking industry.

Now if you are in his higher stakes leagues...I totally understand that its a different perspective. A 10+ percent payout reduction on a large kitty is a different ballgame than a $2 increase in a trophy league fee. I personally would never play a large stakes game on a site like Antsports that is so feature poor and klunky. But if I was there already for some reason, these problems would have my faith shaken enough to be looking around, especially if you can find better payout percentages on a nicer site. I mean...the payout is what its about in money leagues. No doubt. If his previously high payout percentage was the only reason you tolerated the lack of slickness, the lack of a news service, the minimal stat coverage, the lack of customizability...hey, when the only draw is gone, there aint no reason to stay.

But lets not encourage a stampede of the little gamers too. My high stakes games are elsewhere anyway, and would never be going to Antsports until he does a LOT different. But Steve's got the best place around for a low stakes (ie trophy) game when you weigh all the freebies you get and the cheap price.

I also think its important to subsidize in some small way the places that serve the industry, and his ADP data is a service we all need and use, whether we go there for the info or get it second hand from all the other places that recycle it. I certainly get my money's worth for my one trophy league a year.

Anyway...I guess its a good thing I type almost 200 words a minute, lol. I just know from personal experience that I have seen enough good things come from Steve and Antsports to outweigh the bad...to the degree which I qualified my support. I dont think its fair to either the company or the industry which it helps serve, even indirectly, to categorically dismiss the site and its entire slate of services.

And since I got on a soapbox, I might as well state for the record that I do NOT have any personal stake in the company. I dont know Steve well enough to tell you his last name or anything like that. Its just my personal experience I wanted to share, to lend some perspective. Other than that, if you are looking elsewhere, hey it doesn't mean squat to me. I personally prefer Sportsline, and I hear people massacre it all the time. Each to their own.

 

[Bri]

snickersnack is right in that Steve is quite approachable if you guys wanna chat with him.....go ahead

 

[Holy Schneikes]

So either there is some other increase in operating costs, or he wants to make more profit, or both, but to blame everything on a 2.5% increase in credit card fees seems a bit lame to me.

I have no inside line on what those extra costs might be, but consider that the delay in collecting league fees has been significant, that chatter on many boards was indicating that a lot of his customers were already switching to other sites because of the delay, and that now he may also have no way to accept credit card payments in a timely fashion...it all translates to lost business. That is a cost. If, like most people who become accustomed to a steady growth rate in their income stream, he increased his lifestyle costs, or even just his other business costs (like staff or bandwidth) in line with expectations of continued growth, and now he is looking to suffer a loss instead...this is ground that has to be made up for somewhere. If you have decreasing sales (for all the above reasons) the only way to maintain a profit margin, or even to simply meet operating costs which stayed the same while your gross dropped, is to lower other costs. The easiest cost to control in his business model is likely the payout...

You cant always assume the worst. The world sometimes warrants it, but business is usually just business. Steve knows that these kinds of feelings are going to arise and if he didn't have to risk losing the goodwill, he wouldn't do it. That makes the least sense of all.

I'm with you. Like I said before, if that's what he needs to charge, that's what he needs to charge. I've run a business with people questioining my price structure all the time because folks don't understand everything that goes into the final product. My only point was and is, it's not very smart to blame it ALL on credit card fees, especially when he comes right out and tells you the actual difference and it isn't close to the decrease in payout.

 

[Spiderman]

Does AntSports offer the best payout on the Internet ?

I know in Sportsline leagues, you only get 50% of the total amount that was paid into the league.

 

[Team Legacy]

What's wrong with the site? I think its great.

You'll be hard pressed to find a better blind bid waiver system than his.

 

[Ron_Mexico]

What's wrong with the site? I think its great.

You'll be hard pressed to find a better blind bid waiver system than his.

It is a great site.The problem is justifying a 15 to 20%

hike, and attributing it to credit card fees.

stay tuned

 

[reg]

Does AntSports offer the best payout on the Internet ?

I know in Sportsline leagues, you only get 50% of the total amount that was paid into the league.

Phenoms gives back between 80-95%. I have never played in one of Unlucky's leagues, but know quite a few around here do.

 

[menobrown]

Does AntSports offer the best payout on the Internet ?

I know in Sportsline leagues, you only get 50% of the total amount that was paid into the league.

Phenoms gives back between 80-95%. I have never played in one of Unlucky's leagues, but know quite a few around here do.

Does anyone have any experience with the Phenoms site? Their payouts for the $500 and $1,000 league look excellent but I'm concerned about 2 things and I wanted to know if someone could shed some light:1. Payouts. How quickly do they pay?

2. Trades. They are the only fairly high stakes fantasy league I've seen that allows trades. This makes me nervous playing in a league were you can win over $5k. I've been shafted out of championships in CBS Sportsline due to collusion and was steamed about losing $150 so something on this magnitude would have me besides myself. Can anyone comment on the trading process and should I not have any fears of collusion?

 

[Bailiver]

Does AntSports offer the best payout on the Internet ?

I know in Sportsline leagues, you only get 50% of the total amount that was paid into the league.

Phenoms gives back between 80-95%. I have never played in one of Unlucky's leagues, but know quite a few around here do.

Does anyone have any experience with the Phenoms site? Their payouts for the $500 and $1,000 league look excellent but I'm concerned about 2 things and I wanted to know if someone could shed some light:1. Payouts. How quickly do they pay?

2. Trades. They are the only fairly high stakes fantasy league I've seen that allows trades. This makes me nervous playing in a league were you can win over $5k. I've been shafted out of championships in CBS Sportsline due to collusion and was steamed about losing $150 so something on this magnitude would have me besides myself. Can anyone comment on the trading process and should I not have any fears of collusion?

I was in a few of Unlucky's leagues and never had a problem. I don't recall whether I finished in the money, but I would be surprised if payouts and/or collusion was ever a problem. A whole unch of FBGs play these leagues and everybody seemed to be happy.

 

[cscmtp]

I commish 8 private dynasty leagues at Antsports. There are lots of things i love about the software, and the boards are great. But Steve desperately needs to upgrade his servers, because last year things REALLY bogged down to a crawl near kickoff time. But that is my only real complaint. Speed issues.

 

[Team Legacy]

I commish 8 private dynasty leagues at Antsports. There are lots of things i love about the software, and the boards are great. But Steve desperately needs to upgrade his servers, because last year things REALLY bogged down to a crawl near kickoff time. But that is my only real complaint. Speed issues.

Yes this is fair. Live Scoring was not great last season. Hopefully this has been addressed.

 

[Sinrman]

He also answers e-mails on about a 2-3 day lag ( AntSports@Yahoo.com ), but its quicker to use the phone.

Actually, I have found it to be a LOT quicker than 2-3 days. Steve is really good in replying back to you, which is a surprise over the years, as big as Antsports has gotten. You would think that the bigger they get, the less "customer friendly" and the less customer service you get.I've been one that has played in Antsports leagues in the past, and have enjoyed that quite a bit. Good level of competition. If you're looking for higher payouts, then I would agree that you may want to look elsewhere. But Antsports has a good track record, and Steve pays the payouts quickly. You don't have to worry about him keeping the money or any shannanigans. Besides, if you think the payouts are too low now, then the power of the marketplace will come into play. Also, you can always try out the trophy leagues, which are pretty neat, if you're not so worried about $$.