Has Peyton Manning ever had a special receiver? (1 Viewer)

[shader]

Now I know alot of people are going to jump up and yell about how great Marvin Harrison was, and how good Reggie Wayne is.

Yes, they are great route runners and nice players. They have made incredible catches.

But in terms of sheer talent, how good were they?

Harrison didn't have elite speed. He didn't have elite size.

But he could run great routes and had great hands. Reggie Wayne is similar to Harrison, but with better speed...although he isnt quite as precise of a route runner.

Would either Harrison or Wayne have been as good if they were on the Bengals? Titans? Eagles? I think they'd be good players, but nowhere NEAR where they are now. Some WR's are so good that they would probably succeed in 90% of the situations in the league. I just don't think that's the case with any receiver Peyton has ever had.

Peyton has been so awesome that it's almost irrelevent who his receivers were. Last year, Gonzalez looked like a great young player. He gets hurt, Harrison retires, and you figure this year Peyton might struggle. Instead he turns Collie and Garcon into relevant players.

What would happen if you put a truly elite talent on Peyton's team? A Fitzgerald, a Calvin Johnson, an Andre Johnson, a Moss, a TO?

He's never had that imposing beast of a WR at his disposal. I personally would love to see it though I doubt we ever will

 

[Gr00vus]

Marvin Harrison would have succeeded wherever he was. Yes, he was a very good receiver.

 

[valhallan]

Harrison, Wayne, Clark, and Gonzalez were all first round picks so I'd have to say he's been given some good weapons over the years.

 

[Native]

Would you make the same argument about Jerry Rice? He wasnt elite physically either.

I think Marvin ran a sub 4.4 40 coming out of Syracuse. Both he and Wayne were first round draft picks so clearly they had talent. Sure, theyre not physical freaks like Moss, Owens, Marshall and Calvin Johnson, but theyre still exceptional receivers.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Harrison was absolutely an elite talent. Yes, Manning is awesome at making receivers look better than most would, but Harrison was special. He had 8 straight seasons with at least 80 catches, 1,100 yards, and 10 TDs. Let me know when Wayne, Collie or any of those other Colts WRs do that.

 

[Michael Brown]

Would you make the same argument about Jerry Rice? He wasnt elite physically either.I think Marvin ran a sub 4.4 40 coming out of Syracuse. Both he and Wayne were first round draft picks so clearly they had talent. Sure, theyre not physical freaks like Moss, Owens, Marshall and Calvin Johnson, but theyre still exceptional receivers.

I don't think the OP is bashing Harrison/Wayne as much as he's praising Manning. I think people are focusing on defending those guys, which is fine but it's not what is being asked. If Manning is doing what he's doing with "very good" talent at receiver, imagine how insane he'd be if he DID have a physical freak at his disposal.

 

[Gr00vus]

Would you make the same argument about Jerry Rice? He wasnt elite physically either.I think Marvin ran a sub 4.4 40 coming out of Syracuse. Both he and Wayne were first round draft picks so clearly they had talent. Sure, theyre not physical freaks like Moss, Owens, Marshall and Calvin Johnson, but theyre still exceptional receivers.

I don't think the OP is bashing Harrison/Wayne as much as he's praising Manning. I think people are focusing on defending those guys, which is fine but it's not what is being asked. If Manning is doing what he's doing with "very good" talent at receiver, imagine how insane he'd be if he DID have a physical freak at his disposal.

The OP said:

But in terms of sheer talent, how good were they?Harrison didn't have elite speed. He didn't have elite size....Would either Harrison or Wayne have been as good if they were on the Bengals? Titans? Eagles? I think they'd be good players, but nowhere NEAR where they are now. Some WR's are so good that they would probably succeed in 90% of the situations in the league. I just don't think that's the case with any receiver Peyton has ever had.

That's totally selling Harrison short. He would have been a stud regardless of where he played. Check out his '96 and '97 seasons - he was doing just fine before Manning ever got there at a point in his career where most receivers don't do much at all.

 

[benm3218]

Good question. Could make for nice discussion if the Harrison fanclub relaxes. Sheesh.

Rephrasing: How would Peyton look with Fitzgerald and Boldin on his team with Breaston too?

 

[scrumptrulescent]

I believe that if Peyton were paired with Calvin Johnson, the rest of the league would cry "unfair", take their ball and go home.

 

[ADP]

Wayne came out of Miami as one of the best wide receivers Miami has ever had. Drafted 1st round, and has lived up to that billing. Manning is good, but your selling Harrison and Wayne short here. They would both still be elite talents on whatever team they were on.

The most prolific and consistent receiver in the storied history of Miami football . . . Owns the UM career receptions mark and is a close second on UM's receiving yards list . . . Perhaps the finest pure receiver in Miami history . . . Ranks first on UM's career receptions with 173 catches and second with 2,510 yards . . . Made 43 career starts, which places first by receivers since the 1983 season . . . Was a Biletnikoff Award Watch List candidate in 2000 . . . Caught at least one pass in a school-record 37 consecutive games dating back to the 1997 season . . . Had 20 career touchdown receptions, good for third place all-time among Miami receivers . . . Caught TD passes in seven straight games, one-shy of the school-record, from the end of 1999 into the first four games of the 2000 season . . . Caught 12 TD passes from Ken Dorsey to become the fourth-highest frequent QB/WR scoring combination at UM . . . Runs excellent routes and is dangerous after the catch . . . Provides Hurricane quarterbacks with a big target and soft hands . . . Is Excellent at knowing when the blitz is coming and breaking his route so the quarterback can get rid of the ball . . . Missed last two contests of the 1998 season with a left knee ACL injury, which required reconstructive surgery . . . Recovered to post another excellent season in 1999 . . . Is one of the team's best conditioned athletes . . . Ran the 40-yard dash in 4.4 seconds during this past spring and squatted 440 pounds, benched 300 pounds and power-cleaned 255 pounds, all of which were wide receiver team-highs.

 

[Demian]

Oh......I thought this....was.....about something else.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I believe that if Peyton were paired with Calvin Johnson, the rest of the league would cry "unfair", take their ball and go home.

Or you would have people questioning whether Johnson was really that good, or if Manning just make him look that good.

 

[golfguy]

I believe that if Peyton were paired with Calvin Johnson, the rest of the league would cry "unfair", take their ball and go home.

really? calvin johnson? maybe andre johnson or fitz. calvin has had 1 really good season and 2 seasons with injuries now.and honestly it wouldn't change much. if anything it would take away from peyton because people would say look at this WRs.and besides when you are the worst team in the league at running the ball, you can only throw if so much anyway.

 

[shader]

I knew this would spark a reaction from some, though I'm not fishing. I've been a Manning-hater too for a long time. But I've seen the light.

My point (and I even posted this) is not that Wayne and Harrison aren't good. It's that Manning turned them from good receivers to GREAT receivers. Is Marvin Harrison a top 5 receiver in this league without Peyton? I doubt it. He never broke 1,000 yards in his first three seasons. Then in Peyton's second year, when Peyton exploded, lookey there, Harrison has 1,600 yards.

Maybe these are the perfect guys for Peyton...smart, intelligent route runners with very good speed.

I'm just saying that they aren't so amazing that they would put up 1500 yards on any team they played on.

I argue that if you swap career paths, Derrick Mason could have had almost as good of a career as Marvin Harrison if he was on the Colts and Harrison was on the Titans. Now Harrison is probably a little more talented than Mason, but that's the point I'm getting at.

I'd love to have seen a big, physical, elite receiver play with Peyton.

Although as a Titans fan...that probably wouldn't be a good thing....

 

[shader]

He has had phenomenal offensive options his entire career. Probably as good as anyone who has ever played the game.

Hmmm...I just don't think this is true at all.

 

[Michael Brown]

He has had phenomenal offensive options his entire career. Probably as good as anyone who has ever played the game.

I agree with this. While there wasn't one freak of nature option, he's always had a ton of talent around him.Groovus, you're right...he was selling them short. I had thought the OP was doing it more as a compliment to Manning, but admittedly it looks like I read between the lines where there were no lines to read between. This was just a knock on the WRs, nothing more. And yeah, I disagree with it. Harrison and Wayne may not have been HOFers but they'd easily be top-flight options regardless of where they played.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I'm just saying that they aren't so amazing that they would put up 1500 yards on any team they played on.

Find me any receiver in the history of this league would put up 1,500 yards on any team he played on. Jerry Rice is probably the only one.

 

[valhallan]

He has had phenomenal offensive options his entire career. Probably as good as anyone who has ever played the game.

Hmmm...I just don't think this is true at all.

1st round picks:RB Marshall FaulkRB Edgerrin JamesRB Joseph AddaiRB Donald BrownWR Marvin HarrisonWR Reggie WayneWR Anthony GonzalezTE Dallas Clark

 

[EBF]

Yes. Wayne and Harrison are both elite.

They both fall into the category of "sneaky good" along with guys like Holt, Bruce, Ochocinco, and Mason.

 

[benm3218]

I'm just saying that they aren't so amazing that they would put up 1500 yards on any team they played on.

Find me any receiver in the history of this league would put up 1,500 yards on any team he played on. Jerry Rice is probably the only one.

You realize you are making his point???? Hello!

 

[Koya]

I'd rather have a guy who isnt super fast, had great hands and ran great routes than a tall physical freak who was fast but missed either hands OR routes.

And, FWIW, as noted Harrison was pretty darn fast.

For a QB like Manning who does have great accuracy and touch, I dont think you could get much better than a very fast, super reliable, great hands and always exactly where he is supposed to be route runner like Marv.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I'm just saying that they aren't so amazing that they would put up 1500 yards on any team they played on.

Find me any receiver in the history of this league would put up 1,500 yards on any team he played on. Jerry Rice is probably the only one.

You realize you are making his point???? Hello!

Eh, it all depends on your perspective. To reiterate, Harrison had 8 straight seasons with at least 80 catches, 1,100 yards, and 10 TDs. I don't care who your quarterback is; you don't do that without being elite and being special.

 

[Gr00vus]

I'm just saying that they aren't so amazing that they would put up 1500 yards on any team they played on.

Find me any receiver in the history of this league would put up 1,500 yards on any team he played on. Jerry Rice is probably the only one.

You realize you are making his point???? Hello!

His point is what would happen if Peyton Manning had Jerry Rice on his team?

 

[Buckna]

You don't not only break but SMASH the single season reception record by just being a nice player.

 

[benm3218]

I'm just saying that they aren't so amazing that they would put up 1500 yards on any team they played on.

Find me any receiver in the history of this league would put up 1,500 yards on any team he played on. Jerry Rice is probably the only one.

You realize you are making his point???? Hello!

Eh, it all depends on your perspective. To reiterate, Harrison had 8 straight seasons with at least 80 catches, 1,100 yards, and 10 TDs. I don't care who your quarterback is; you don't do that without being elite and being special.

The problem really is what everyone's different opinion of elite is. I think playing with a Randy Moss, Fitzgerald, Jerry Rice, Andre Johnson receiver would have made Manning EVEN more insane. I think thats the OP's point, but everyone is hung up on haggling over what elite is and if Harrison was best of the best receiver.

 

[scrumptrulescent]

I believe that if Peyton were paired with Calvin Johnson, the rest of the league would cry "unfair", take their ball and go home.

really? calvin johnson? maybe andre johnson or fitz. calvin has had 1 really good season and 2 seasons with injuries now.

I believe Fitz has only had one really good season without Warner as his QB. And AJ has always had a better QB than Calvin to this point....although Calvin may have a bright future with his QB situation settled now.

 

[benm3218]

Does anyone here think that Culpepper went from being a dominant QB to a lousy QB because Moss left his team?

If you do think Moss made Culpepper look better than he was, then why could Peyton not be taking good receivers and making them look like giants?

 

[Ghost Rider]

Oh, and it is worth mentioning that as good as Garcon and Collie were last week, their season totals were:

47-765-4 (Garcon)

60-767-7 (Collie)

In other words, very good seasons by number 2 and 3 WR standards; no more, no less.

And as good as Reggie Wayne is, he has only scored double digit TDs three times, and his yardage totals do not touch the obscene ones that Harrison was putting up in his prime.

 

[Buckna]

I believe that if Peyton were paired with Calvin Johnson, the rest of the league would cry "unfair", take their ball and go home.

really? calvin johnson? maybe andre johnson or fitz. calvin has had 1 really good season and 2 seasons with injuries now.

I believe Fitz has only had one really good season without Warner as his QB. And AJ has always had a better QB than Calvin to this point....although Calvin may have a bright future with his QB situation settled now.

AJ might be a nice comparison for Calvin. AJ has a better QB now, but had to deal with awful, awful David Carr his first 4 seasons. No one outside of Houston thought AJ was any good until Carr finally got run out of town.

 

[benm3218]

Does anyone here think that Culpepper went from being a dominant QB to a lousy QB because Moss left his team?If you do think Moss made Culpepper look better than he was, then why could Peyton not be taking good receivers and making them look like giants?

CPep blew out his knee.That year, without Moss, he was on pace for 4100 yards.Bad td/int #s though... but he really had almost no talent to throw tbviously good/great targets make you a better quarterback.

As do great QB's make you a better WR...It's just a difference of opinion, But I agree that with the Cards receivers Manning would be putting up 5k seasons.

 

[jackdubl]

Harrison didn't have elite speed. He didn't have elite size.

But he could run great routes and had great hands. Reggie Wayne is similar to Harrison, but with better speed...although he isnt quite as precise of a route runner.

Harrison had elite speed, no doubt about that. And he had MUCH better speed than Wayne on his best day. You must not have been watching when Harrison was in his prime with Manning.

 

[FavreCo]

Harrison didn't have elite speed. He didn't have elite size.

But he could run great routes and had great hands. Reggie Wayne is similar to Harrison, but with better speed...although he isnt quite as precise of a route runner.

Harrison had elite speed, no doubt about that. And he had MUCH better speed than Wayne on his best day. You must not have been watching when Harrison was in his prime with Manning.

Excellent speed. Marvin Harrison circa 1999 made Deion Sanders fake a hamstring injury when he smoked him for a 40 yard TD. Deion looked like a clown. Sanders thought he could cover Marvin. He was wrong.

 

[Buckna]

Harrison is one of only 4 players ever with 10,000 receiving yards. He is one of only 7 WR's with over 100 career TD's. He has the 2nd most receptions by a player ever, 2nd only to the Jerry Rice. He holds the single season reception record. 8 time pro-bowler, 6 time ALL-PRO. He ran a 4.38 40.

It's sad people have forgotten how good Harrison was. There are very few WR's that could touch him in his prime.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

This is really silly. Manning benefitted nearly as much from having Harrison as Harrison did from having Manning. It was a symbioitic relationship like most of the best combos. Would Harrison strive under any conditions? No, but then no WR would (see Randy Moss in Oakland). As people pointed out Regge Wayne is a very talented WR as well. Just because a WR in not a physical freak doesn't mean they can't play the position at an elite level

Manning would be a great QB with lesser WRs, but would Manning be Manning if he had Todd Pinkston and James Thrash as his starting WRs for most of his career? A QB should consider himself very very lucky for having Harrison and Wayne to throw to for most of his career.

Manning will go down as one of the all time greats. There's really no need to build him up more by suggesting he did it with little support.

Most "elite" WRs did not play with poor QBs.

Most "elite" QBs were supported by great talent around them.

 

[scrumptrulescent]

I believe that if Peyton were paired with Calvin Johnson, the rest of the league would cry "unfair", take their ball and go home.

really? calvin johnson? maybe andre johnson or fitz. calvin has had 1 really good season and 2 seasons with injuries now.

I believe Fitz has only had one really good season without Warner as his QB. And AJ has always had a better QB than Calvin to this point....although Calvin may have a bright future with his QB situation settled now.

AJ might be a nice comparison for Calvin. AJ has a better QB now, but had to deal with awful, awful David Carr his first 4 seasons. No one outside of Houston thought AJ was any good until Carr finally got run out of town.

Kitna, Orlovsky, Stanton, Culpepper, and rookie year Stafford were probably all about equally as bad as Carr.

 

[Stillers Jr.]

Excellent speed. Marvin Harrison circa 1999 made Deion Sanders fake a hamstring injury when he smoked him for a 40 yard TD. Deion looked like a clown. Sanders thought he could cover Marvin. He was wrong.

That one got me...LOL.Gotta love Neon Deion.

 

[Jerry Lawler]

If you want to say Reggie Wayne is merely a very good all-around receiver, I could agree. Marvin Harrison is a completely different conversation. Harrison got separation better than anyone I've ever seen. He was getting several yards of separation from man coverage on goal line plays. In his 143 reception season in 2002, Edge played ineffectively with a high ankle sprain all season, and Reggie Wayne wasn't much of a threat yet. 3rd downs basically consisted of two DB's waiting for Harrison at the first down marker, where he would proceed to make a catch anyway.

I've been wondering how this would play out when Harrison is up for HoF voting, as Manning's undeniable influence on Harrison's receiving stats will understandably become a criticism. fwiw, I think he would be at least as successful as other future Hall of Famers did in similar situations (Cris Carter, Fitzgerald, Andre Johnson, etc.).

 

[CalBear]

He has had phenomenal offensive options his entire career. Probably as good as anyone who has ever played the game.

Hmmm...I just don't think this is true at all.

1st round picks:RB Marshall FaulkRB Edgerrin JamesRB Joseph AddaiRB Donald BrownWR Marvin HarrisonWR Reggie WayneWR Anthony GonzalezTE Dallas Clark

1st round picks:QB Tim CouchRB William GreenTE Kellen Winslow Jr.WR Braylon EdwardsOr:QB Joey HarringtonWR Charles RogersWR Roy WilliamsWR Mike WilliamsOr: QB Jamarcus RussellRB Darren McFaddenWR Darrius Heyward-Bey

 

[Wadsworth]

I think Marvin Harrison is a killer WR.



But on the field I have no doubt that Harrison would have at the least been very good on other teams. Watching him play live once a year in Jacksonville, I never had any doubt that he was a legit WR, Manning or not. He disguised his routes as well as anyone I've seen and exploded into his cuts. As much as I can't stand him, I have no problem calling him an elite WR.

 

[Polar Dude]

1st round picks:RB Marshall FaulkRB Edgerrin JamesRB Joseph AddaiRB Donald BrownWR Marvin HarrisonWR Reggie WayneWR Anthony GonzalezTE Dallas Clark

1st round picks:QB Tim CouchRB William GreenTE Kellen Winslow Jr.WR Braylon EdwardsOr:QB Joey HarringtonWR Charles RogersWR Roy WilliamsWR Mike WilliamsOr: QB Jamarcus RussellRB Darren McFaddenWR Darrius Heyward-Bey

Are you imagining that comparing the 1st round picks to one of the greatest talent evaluators the NFL has ever seen to those of the Browns, Lions, and Raiders is actually making a point? If so, you are really slipping.

 

[CalBear]

Are you imagining that comparing the 1st round picks to one of the greatest talent evaluators the NFL has ever seen to those of the Browns, Lions, and Raiders is actually making a point? If so, you are really slipping.

I'm noting that just because someone's a first round pick, doesn't mean they'll be successful. Is the success of Colts first-round picks due to talent evaluation, or due to Manning providing an easy environment for offensive players to be productive? (Or both?)

 

[Polar Dude]

Are you imagining that comparing the 1st round picks to one of the greatest talent evaluators the NFL has ever seen to those of the Browns, Lions, and Raiders is actually making a point? If so, you are really slipping.

I'm noting that just because someone's a first round pick, doesn't mean they'll be successful. Is the success of Colts first-round picks due to talent evaluation, or due to Manning providing an easy environment for offensive players to be productive? (Or both?)

Considering he has also drafted well on the other side of the ball, just not with the same insistence, I think it's pretty fair to give Polian a good amount of credit for bringing in talent.But now you seem to be suggesting that if Peyton was on the Lions, Rogers/Williams/Williams would be the equivalent of Harrison/Wayne/Clark, and I'm not ready to swallow that.

 

[CalBear]

Are you imagining that comparing the 1st round picks to one of the greatest talent evaluators the NFL has ever seen to those of the Browns, Lions, and Raiders is actually making a point? If so, you are really slipping.

I'm noting that just because someone's a first round pick, doesn't mean they'll be successful. Is the success of Colts first-round picks due to talent evaluation, or due to Manning providing an easy environment for offensive players to be productive? (Or both?)

Considering he has also drafted well on the other side of the ball, just not with the same insistence, I think it's pretty fair to give Polian a good amount of credit for bringing in talent.But now you seem to be suggesting that if Peyton was on the Lions, Rogers/Williams/Williams would be the equivalent of Harrison/Wayne/Clark, and I'm not ready to swallow that.

I don't know if they would be Harrison/Wayne/Clarke, but I know they'd have been a lot more likely to succeed than they were with Joey Harrington throwing them the ball.

 

[loose circuits]

Are you imagining that comparing the 1st round picks to one of the greatest talent evaluators the NFL has ever seen to those of the Browns, Lions, and Raiders is actually making a point? If so, you are really slipping.

I'm noting that just because someone's a first round pick, doesn't mean they'll be successful. Is the success of Colts first-round picks due to talent evaluation, or due to Manning providing an easy environment for offensive players to be productive? (Or both?)

Considering he has also drafted well on the other side of the ball, just not with the same insistence, I think it's pretty fair to give Polian a good amount of credit for bringing in talent.But now you seem to be suggesting that if Peyton was on the Lions, Rogers/Williams/Williams would be the equivalent of Harrison/Wayne/Clark, and I'm not ready to swallow that.

I don't know if they would be Harrison/Wayne/Clarke, but I know they'd have been a lot more likely to succeed than they were with Joey Harrington throwing them the ball.

I think it's possible that Manning would have beat the snot out of Rogers & Mike Williams for being so damn lazy

 

[Spike]

Harrison is one of only 4 players ever with 10,000 receptions. He is one of only 7 WR's with over 100 career TD's. He has the 2nd most receptions by a player ever, 2nd only to the Jerry Rice. He holds the single season reception record. 8 time pro-bowler, 6 time ALL-PRO. He ran a 4.38 40.

It's sad people have forgotten how good Harrison was. There are very few WR's that could touch him in his prime.

Most prolific WR ever. In his 13 year career, with the aforementioned 10,000 receptions, he averaged a hair over 769 receptions a season. That's an average of a little over 48 a game.You don't do that unless you're a special receiver.

 

[Spike]

Manning has also greatly benefited (in my mind, at least) in that he's had incredible stability at the coaching positions.

 

[inzanitee]

Harrison is one of only 4 players ever with 10,000 receptions. He is one of only 7 WR's with over 100 career TD's. He has the 2nd most receptions by a player ever, 2nd only to the Jerry Rice. He holds the single season reception record. 8 time pro-bowler, 6 time ALL-PRO. He ran a 4.38 40.

It's sad people have forgotten how good Harrison was. There are very few WR's that could touch him in his prime.

Most prolific WR ever. In his 13 year career, with the aforementioned 10,000 receptions, he averaged a hair over 769 receptions a season. That's an average of a little over 48 a game.You don't do that unless you're a special receiver.

That is special!

 

[gonzobill5]

Here's some homework for the OP

Watch this...

And count how many times Harrison breaks someone's ankles and gets 20 yards of separation between him and the nearest defender. Then write an essay on what qualities make a WR special.

Seriously, Harrison is right alongside TO and Moss among this generation's greatest WRs.

 

[Saints-Man]

Not to discount the others, but Marvin Harrison was a very special receiver. A HOF receiver.

 

[shader]

He has had phenomenal offensive options his entire career. Probably as good as anyone who has ever played the game.

Hmmm...I just don't think this is true at all.

1st round picks:RB Marshall FaulkRB Edgerrin JamesRB Joseph AddaiRB Donald BrownWR Marvin HarrisonWR Reggie WayneWR Anthony GonzalezTE Dallas Clark

Seriously? In an argument about someone having the "greatest weapons in the history of the game", you're including Joseph Addai, Donald Brown and Anthony Gonzalez? Yes, Faulk was great.....but Peyton had him for one year. Edgerrin also was amazing...for two years. But after his knee injury he was never an elite talent. In reality he had Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark....which gets back to the root of my entire argument.