HBO - Song of Ice&Fire Series -Varsity Thread - no TV only whiners (3 Viewers)

[kupcho1]

Can I get a refresher here? Are you talking about Jaquen? Was it known he was there until Arya was on her way north?

Well, we know Jaqen was in the Black Cells at the same time as Ned since Yoren said that is where he got Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter from.

Here is where the theory starts:

Faceless men are the world's premiere assassins. From what we have seen of Arya's training and Jaqen's abilities it seems highly unlikely that he was just caught and tossed in the dungeon. It seems far more likely that he was put there for a reason.

Going off of that premise - who would be Jaqen's potential target? The only person in the dungeons would be Ned. Also, the plan for Ned once he confessed to being a traitor was to go to The Wall with Yoren - so Jaqen is perfectly placed there as well. So - who wants Ned dead and who has had contact with Faceless men? Littlefinger.

Littlefinger hates the Starks - has for a long time. We also know that Littlefinger has approached/had dealings with the Faceless men (he talks about their prices when the Small Council is discussing killing Dany). We also know that Littlefinger's family was initially from Braavos (where the Faceless men reside). On top of that we know that Littlefinger wants chaos. Assuming that Littlefinger wants Ned dead it seems likely that he is the one that influenced Joffrey to execute him (and might have told Slynt since we know Slynt didn't hesitate when Joff called for Ned's head). However, if Cersei, or Varys, or anyone prevented the execution from happening - he has the backup plan of Jaqen going to The Wall. Jaqen is also very skilled about making deaths look like accidents. I wouldn't be surprised if Ned's death was to look like an accident or to look like a Lannister killed him.

This would also explain Jaqen knowing who Arya was when he came across her in the Harrenhal godswood.

Interesting. But where this falls apart for me is after Ned is killed. Why would the Faceless Man consent to continue to be a prisoner and be locked in a cage headed north with Biter and Rorge?

 

[Psychopav]

Maybe the FM was there to conspire with Ned, maybe even was retained by Robert before his death as a contingency plan that was put into action once Ned was arrested. Just spitballin'.

 

[sn0mm1s]

Can I get a refresher here? Are you talking about Jaquen? Was it known he was there until Arya was on her way north?

Well, we know Jaqen was in the Black Cells at the same time as Ned since Yoren said that is where he got Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter from.

Here is where the theory starts:

Faceless men are the world's premiere assassins. From what we have seen of Arya's training and Jaqen's abilities it seems highly unlikely that he was just caught and tossed in the dungeon. It seems far more likely that he was put there for a reason.

Going off of that premise - who would be Jaqen's potential target? The only person in the dungeons would be Ned. Also, the plan for Ned once he confessed to being a traitor was to go to The Wall with Yoren - so Jaqen is perfectly placed there as well. So - who wants Ned dead and who has had contact with Faceless men? Littlefinger.

Littlefinger hates the Starks - has for a long time. We also know that Littlefinger has approached/had dealings with the Faceless men (he talks about their prices when the Small Council is discussing killing Dany). We also know that Littlefinger's family was initially from Braavos (where the Faceless men reside). On top of that we know that Littlefinger wants chaos. Assuming that Littlefinger wants Ned dead it seems likely that he is the one that influenced Joffrey to execute him (and might have told Slynt since we know Slynt didn't hesitate when Joff called for Ned's head). However, if Cersei, or Varys, or anyone prevented the execution from happening - he has the backup plan of Jaqen going to The Wall. Jaqen is also very skilled about making deaths look like accidents. I wouldn't be surprised if Ned's death was to look like an accident or to look like a Lannister killed him.

This would also explain Jaqen knowing who Arya was when he came across her in the Harrenhal godswood.

Interesting. But where this falls apart for me is after Ned is killed. Why would the Faceless Man consent to continue to be a prisoner and be locked in a cage headed north with Biter and Rorge?

1) He was locked in a cage before Ned was killed. Yoren already had everyone ready to go north - Ned was supposed to be his last pickup.

2) Jaqen might not have thought he was going to be locked up the whole way (or even part way). Getting locked up for so long might just have been unlucky.

3) Rorge and Biter were afraid of Jaqen - so they knew there was something badass about him.

 

[Rick James]

Yoren was a cool character.

That's no law, just a sword. Happens I got one, too.

 

[Sabertooth]

Always liked Yoren in the books too.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Can I get a refresher here? Are you talking about Jaquen? Was it known he was there until Arya was on her way north?

Well, we know Jaqen was in the Black Cells at the same time as Ned since Yoren said that is where he got Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter from.

Here is where the theory starts:

Faceless men are the world's premiere assassins. From what we have seen of Arya's training and Jaqen's abilities it seems highly unlikely that he was just caught and tossed in the dungeon. It seems far more likely that he was put there for a reason.

Going off of that premise - who would be Jaqen's potential target? The only person in the dungeons would be Ned. Also, the plan for Ned once he confessed to being a traitor was to go to The Wall with Yoren - so Jaqen is perfectly placed there as well. So - who wants Ned dead and who has had contact with Faceless men? Littlefinger.

Littlefinger hates the Starks - has for a long time. We also know that Littlefinger has approached/had dealings with the Faceless men (he talks about their prices when the Small Council is discussing killing Dany). We also know that Littlefinger's family was initially from Braavos (where the Faceless men reside). On top of that we know that Littlefinger wants chaos. Assuming that Littlefinger wants Ned dead it seems likely that he is the one that influenced Joffrey to execute him (and might have told Slynt since we know Slynt didn't hesitate when Joff called for Ned's head). However, if Cersei, or Varys, or anyone prevented the execution from happening - he has the backup plan of Jaqen going to The Wall. Jaqen is also very skilled about making deaths look like accidents. I wouldn't be surprised if Ned's death was to look like an accident or to look like a Lannister killed him.

This would also explain Jaqen knowing who Arya was when he came across her in the Harrenhal godswood.

Meh - why would littlefinger need a back-up plan? GRRM knew that Ned would die before reaching the wall, so I don't understand why he would build a backstory about a potential back-up plan in case he forgot to kill Ned in Kings Landing.

Playing it out - it seems that the only value is for Arya to somehow find out that Littlefinger is the real culprit, and she would want revenge, which goes against everything she is being trained for now.

I can see that he would be there intentionally, rather than randomly, but not to kill Ned. He could have been there to protect/recruit Arya.

 

[Gnat Berries]

I don't think the Faceless Men are in the protecting business.

 

[sn0mm1s]

Can I get a refresher here? Are you talking about Jaquen? Was it known he was there until Arya was on her way north?

Well, we know Jaqen was in the Black Cells at the same time as Ned since Yoren said that is where he got Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter from.

Here is where the theory starts:

Faceless men are the world's premiere assassins. From what we have seen of Arya's training and Jaqen's abilities it seems highly unlikely that he was just caught and tossed in the dungeon. It seems far more likely that he was put there for a reason.

Going off of that premise - who would be Jaqen's potential target? The only person in the dungeons would be Ned. Also, the plan for Ned once he confessed to being a traitor was to go to The Wall with Yoren - so Jaqen is perfectly placed there as well. So - who wants Ned dead and who has had contact with Faceless men? Littlefinger.

Littlefinger hates the Starks - has for a long time. We also know that Littlefinger has approached/had dealings with the Faceless men (he talks about their prices when the Small Council is discussing killing Dany). We also know that Littlefinger's family was initially from Braavos (where the Faceless men reside). On top of that we know that Littlefinger wants chaos. Assuming that Littlefinger wants Ned dead it seems likely that he is the one that influenced Joffrey to execute him (and might have told Slynt since we know Slynt didn't hesitate when Joff called for Ned's head). However, if Cersei, or Varys, or anyone prevented the execution from happening - he has the backup plan of Jaqen going to The Wall. Jaqen is also very skilled about making deaths look like accidents. I wouldn't be surprised if Ned's death was to look like an accident or to look like a Lannister killed him.

This would also explain Jaqen knowing who Arya was when he came across her in the Harrenhal godswood.

Meh - why would littlefinger need a back-up plan? GRRM knew that Ned would die before reaching the wall, so I don't understand why he would build a backstory about a potential back-up plan in case he forgot to kill Ned in Kings Landing.

Playing it out - it seems that the only value is for Arya to somehow find out that Littlefinger is the real culprit, and she would want revenge, which goes against everything she is being trained for now.

I can see that he would be there intentionally, rather than randomly, but not to kill Ned. He could have been there to protect/recruit Arya.

Why would Varys and Illyrio need multiple backup plans - like Viserys, Aegon, and Daenerys? Why would Cersei need backup plans like killing Robert in the melee or on a hunt?

If you are truly looking at this with GRRMs point of view - GRRM needed a reason why there was a Faceless man in the dungeon in order to develop Arya's story the way he wanted to. She doesn't get the iron coin without dealing with a Faceless man first. From what we have seen of the Faceless men, the likelihood of Jaqen being captured/rounded up is slim to none. He is a good fighter and change appearance at will. Assuming no one would catch him and place him in a dungeon the only other explanation is that he was in there on purpose and willingly.

Recruiting and protecting don't seem to be part of their training. Also, for Jaqen to be there to protect Arya a character would have to know that:

1) She is still alive.

2) That she would run into Yoren

3) That Yoren would take her north.

No one thinks Arya is alive until she is found by Beric's men.

 

[CBusAlex]

Yoren was a cool character.

That's no law, just a sword. Happens I got one, too.

"I hate crossbows. Take too long to reload."

 

[thecatch]

Why did the Faceless Man stick around after Ned Stark was killed, if Stark was the target? He could have left at any time.

 

[sn0mm1s]

Why did the Faceless Man stick around after Ned Stark was killed, if Stark was the target? He could have left at any time.

He couldn't have left at any time - he was locked up in a cage. In fact, he was locked up prior to Ned Stark being killed. Yoren was to take Ned to The Wall and had everyone else ready to go. Ned was the last pickup.

 

[thecatch]

Why did the Faceless Man stick around after Ned Stark was killed, if Stark was the target? He could have left at any time.

He couldn't have left at any time - he was locked up in a cage. In fact, he was locked up prior to Ned Stark being killed. Yoren was to take Ned to The Wall and had everyone else ready to go. Ned was the last pickup.

I don't think the standard lock up would stop one of those guys from getting free at will.

 

[sn0mm1s]

Why did the Faceless Man stick around after Ned Stark was killed, if Stark was the target? He could have left at any time.

He couldn't have left at any time - he was locked up in a cage. In fact, he was locked up prior to Ned Stark being killed. Yoren was to take Ned to The Wall and had everyone else ready to go. Ned was the last pickup.

I don't think the standard lock up would stop one of those guys from getting free at will.

Evidence would suggest otherwise. Arya had to save them from the fire. Not only that, Jaqen recognizes being saved because he gives Arya three deaths.

 

[thecatch]

Why did the Faceless Man stick around after Ned Stark was killed, if Stark was the target? He could have left at any time.

He couldn't have left at any time - he was locked up in a cage. In fact, he was locked up prior to Ned Stark being killed. Yoren was to take Ned to The Wall and had everyone else ready to go. Ned was the last pickup.

I don't think the standard lock up would stop one of those guys from getting free at will.

Evidence would suggest otherwise. Arya had to save them from the fire. Not only that, Jaqen recognizes being saved because he gives Arya three deaths.

Jaqen might have been stuck in that particular instance, but are we really supposed to believe a magical ninja assassin is capable of being subdued so easily, as a general matter?

 

[Sabertooth]

Escaping from a rag tag caravan going through a lawless land might have been a bit easier for Jaqen. Maybe he just hadn't escaped....yet. :mindblown:

 

[sn0mm1s]

Why did the Faceless Man stick around after Ned Stark was killed, if Stark was the target? He could have left at any time.

He couldn't have left at any time - he was locked up in a cage. In fact, he was locked up prior to Ned Stark being killed. Yoren was to take Ned to The Wall and had everyone else ready to go. Ned was the last pickup.

I don't think the standard lock up would stop one of those guys from getting free at will.

Evidence would suggest otherwise. Arya had to save them from the fire. Not only that, Jaqen recognizes being saved because he gives Arya three deaths.

Jaqen might have been stuck in that particular instance, but are we really supposed to believe a magical ninja assassin is capable of being subdued so easily, as a general matter?

No, which is pretty much what the theory hinges on:

A magical ninja assassin is not easily subdued

Ergo

If a magical ninja assassin is subdued then said assassin allowed it to happen.

----

Jaqen was in the dungeon due to his choosing to be in the dungeon. He was caged because Yoren is cautious with men in the Black Cells. Jaqen wanted to be in the dungeons and he wanted to go to The Wall because he wanted to be where Ned was - he likely just didn't expect Yoren's caution.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Unless Jaqen was not a faceless man, but a common criminal, and Syrio killed him and assumed his face to escape the city...

 

[sn0mm1s]

Unless Jaqen was not a faceless man, but a common criminal, and Syrio killed him and assumed his face to escape the city...

Makes no sense.

1) If Syrio was a Faceless man (which is really only a theory because readers didn't want him dead) he would not need to kill anyone to assume their identity. He could just change his face and go - no death required, no dungeon required, no trip to The Wall required.

2) If Syrio is still alive (and a Faceless man) then Meryn Trant is dead - so who is Meryn Trant? It would have to be Syrio, and Jaqen would need to be Jaqen and not Syrio.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Can I get a refresher here? Are you talking about Jaquen? Was it known he was there until Arya was on her way north?

Well, we know Jaqen was in the Black Cells at the same time as Ned since Yoren said that is where he got Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter from.

Here is where the theory starts:

Faceless men are the world's premiere assassins. From what we have seen of Arya's training and Jaqen's abilities it seems highly unlikely that he was just caught and tossed in the dungeon. It seems far more likely that he was put there for a reason.

Going off of that premise - who would be Jaqen's potential target? The only person in the dungeons would be Ned. Also, the plan for Ned once he confessed to being a traitor was to go to The Wall with Yoren - so Jaqen is perfectly placed there as well. So - who wants Ned dead and who has had contact with Faceless men? Littlefinger.

Littlefinger hates the Starks - has for a long time. We also know that Littlefinger has approached/had dealings with the Faceless men (he talks about their prices when the Small Council is discussing killing Dany). We also know that Littlefinger's family was initially from Braavos (where the Faceless men reside). On top of that we know that Littlefinger wants chaos. Assuming that Littlefinger wants Ned dead it seems likely that he is the one that influenced Joffrey to execute him (and might have told Slynt since we know Slynt didn't hesitate when Joff called for Ned's head). However, if Cersei, or Varys, or anyone prevented the execution from happening - he has the backup plan of Jaqen going to The Wall. Jaqen is also very skilled about making deaths look like accidents. I wouldn't be surprised if Ned's death was to look like an accident or to look like a Lannister killed him.

This would also explain Jaqen knowing who Arya was when he came across her in the Harrenhal godswood.

Does this theory then continue with Jaqen / Pate in Oldtown?

 

[sn0mm1s]

Can I get a refresher here? Are you talking about Jaquen? Was it known he was there until Arya was on her way north?

Well, we know Jaqen was in the Black Cells at the same time as Ned since Yoren said that is where he got Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter from.

Here is where the theory starts:

Faceless men are the world's premiere assassins. From what we have seen of Arya's training and Jaqen's abilities it seems highly unlikely that he was just caught and tossed in the dungeon. It seems far more likely that he was put there for a reason.

Going off of that premise - who would be Jaqen's potential target? The only person in the dungeons would be Ned. Also, the plan for Ned once he confessed to being a traitor was to go to The Wall with Yoren - so Jaqen is perfectly placed there as well. So - who wants Ned dead and who has had contact with Faceless men? Littlefinger.

Littlefinger hates the Starks - has for a long time. We also know that Littlefinger has approached/had dealings with the Faceless men (he talks about their prices when the Small Council is discussing killing Dany). We also know that Littlefinger's family was initially from Braavos (where the Faceless men reside). On top of that we know that Littlefinger wants chaos. Assuming that Littlefinger wants Ned dead it seems likely that he is the one that influenced Joffrey to execute him (and might have told Slynt since we know Slynt didn't hesitate when Joff called for Ned's head). However, if Cersei, or Varys, or anyone prevented the execution from happening - he has the backup plan of Jaqen going to The Wall. Jaqen is also very skilled about making deaths look like accidents. I wouldn't be surprised if Ned's death was to look like an accident or to look like a Lannister killed him.

This would also explain Jaqen knowing who Arya was when he came across her in the Harrenhal godswood.

Does this theory then continue with Jaqen / Pate in Oldtown?

Not really - or at least not unless there is some evidence that Littlefinger wants something/someone at the Citadel of Oldtown - which I don't think we have directly read or seen. We know Littlefinger is preparing for Dany but making a leap that he wants something from the Citadel seems a bit much without any proof. As it stands here is what I think happened.

1) Littlefinger hires a Faceless man (as detailed above) who turns out to be Jaqen

2) Jaqen, while waiting to escape, has his life, Rorge, and Biter's saved by Arya.

3) Jaqen's contract with Littlefinger is over, he now needs to get in contact with Braavos

4) Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter join the Brave Companions - likely to save their skins, but Jaqen's iron coin might have come into play as well... who knows how this happened.

5) At Harrenhal, Jaqen now has the means to contact Braavos (raven or messenger) - but also meets Arya - to whom he owes a debt.

6) Jaqen, while waiting for a response kills Arya's first two targets (she searched him out both times), once receiving his orders, Jaqen tracks down Arya to ask for her 3rd name so he can fulfill his obligation to her and move on to his next mission.

7) Arya blackmails Jaqen with his own name to help her. Once the northmen are freed then Jaqen gives Arya his coin, changes his face, and moves on to his next assignment.

Now, I would have to check the timing in regards to Littlefinger see if it would still work out if you replaced "contact with Braavos" with "contact with Littlefinger". If Littlefinger was away from King's Landing (going to the Tyrell's) I think we would have to assume that Jaqen is no longer working for Littlefinger at that time.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Can I get a refresher here? Are you talking about Jaquen? Was it known he was there until Arya was on her way north?

Well, we know Jaqen was in the Black Cells at the same time as Ned since Yoren said that is where he got Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter from.

Here is where the theory starts:

Faceless men are the world's premiere assassins. From what we have seen of Arya's training and Jaqen's abilities it seems highly unlikely that he was just caught and tossed in the dungeon. It seems far more likely that he was put there for a reason.

Going off of that premise - who would be Jaqen's potential target? The only person in the dungeons would be Ned. Also, the plan for Ned once he confessed to being a traitor was to go to The Wall with Yoren - so Jaqen is perfectly placed there as well. So - who wants Ned dead and who has had contact with Faceless men? Littlefinger.

Littlefinger hates the Starks - has for a long time. We also know that Littlefinger has approached/had dealings with the Faceless men (he talks about their prices when the Small Council is discussing killing Dany). We also know that Littlefinger's family was initially from Braavos (where the Faceless men reside). On top of that we know that Littlefinger wants chaos. Assuming that Littlefinger wants Ned dead it seems likely that he is the one that influenced Joffrey to execute him (and might have told Slynt since we know Slynt didn't hesitate when Joff called for Ned's head). However, if Cersei, or Varys, or anyone prevented the execution from happening - he has the backup plan of Jaqen going to The Wall. Jaqen is also very skilled about making deaths look like accidents. I wouldn't be surprised if Ned's death was to look like an accident or to look like a Lannister killed him.

This would also explain Jaqen knowing who Arya was when he came across her in the Harrenhal godswood.

Does this theory then continue with Jaqen / Pate in Oldtown?

Not really - or at least not unless there is some evidence that Littlefinger wants something/someone at the Citadel of Oldtown - which I don't think we have directly read or seen. We know Littlefinger is preparing for Dany but making a leap that he wants something from the Citadel seems a bit much without any proof. As it stands here is what I think happened.

1) Littlefinger hires a Faceless man (as detailed above) who turns out to be Jaqen

2) Jaqen, while waiting to escape, has his life, Rorge, and Biter's saved by Arya.

3) Jaqen's contract with Littlefinger is over, he now needs to get in contact with Braavos

4) Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter join the Brave Companions - likely to save their skins, but Jaqen's iron coin might have come into play as well... who knows how this happened.

5) At Harrenhal, Jaqen now has the means to contact Braavos (raven or messenger) - but also meets Arya - to whom he owes a debt.

6) Jaqen, while waiting for a response kills Arya's first two targets (she searched him out both times), once receiving his orders, Jaqen tracks down Arya to ask for her 3rd name so he can fulfill his obligation to her and move on to his next mission.

7) Arya blackmails Jaqen with his own name to help her. Once the northmen are freed then Jaqen gives Arya his coin, changes his face, and moves on to his next assignment.

Now, I would have to check the timing in regards to Littlefinger see if it would still work out if you replaced "contact with Braavos" with "contact with Littlefinger". If Littlefinger was away from King's Landing (going to the Tyrell's) I think we would have to assume that Jaqen is no longer working for Littlefinger at that time.

Where does the Host Of High Heart's premonition of Balon Greyjoy's death by a man without a face come into this? A different FM? Who whistled up that wind?

 

[Thunderlips]

Can I get a refresher here? Are you talking about Jaquen? Was it known he was there until Arya was on her way north?

Well, we know Jaqen was in the Black Cells at the same time as Ned since Yoren said that is where he got Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter from.

Here is where the theory starts:

Faceless men are the world's premiere assassins. From what we have seen of Arya's training and Jaqen's abilities it seems highly unlikely that he was just caught and tossed in the dungeon. It seems far more likely that he was put there for a reason.

Going off of that premise - who would be Jaqen's potential target? The only person in the dungeons would be Ned. Also, the plan for Ned once he confessed to being a traitor was to go to The Wall with Yoren - so Jaqen is perfectly placed there as well. So - who wants Ned dead and who has had contact with Faceless men? Littlefinger.

Littlefinger hates the Starks - has for a long time. We also know that Littlefinger has approached/had dealings with the Faceless men (he talks about their prices when the Small Council is discussing killing Dany). We also know that Littlefinger's family was initially from Braavos (where the Faceless men reside). On top of that we know that Littlefinger wants chaos. Assuming that Littlefinger wants Ned dead it seems likely that he is the one that influenced Joffrey to execute him (and might have told Slynt since we know Slynt didn't hesitate when Joff called for Ned's head). However, if Cersei, or Varys, or anyone prevented the execution from happening - he has the backup plan of Jaqen going to The Wall. Jaqen is also very skilled about making deaths look like accidents. I wouldn't be surprised if Ned's death was to look like an accident or to look like a Lannister killed him.

This would also explain Jaqen knowing who Arya was when he came across her in the Harrenhal godswood.

Does this theory then continue with Jaqen / Pate in Oldtown?

Not really - or at least not unless there is some evidence that Littlefinger wants something/someone at the Citadel of Oldtown - which I don't think we have directly read or seen. We know Littlefinger is preparing for Dany but making a leap that he wants something from the Citadel seems a bit much without any proof. As it stands here is what I think happened.

1) Littlefinger hires a Faceless man (as detailed above) who turns out to be Jaqen

2) Jaqen, while waiting to escape, has his life, Rorge, and Biter's saved by Arya.

3) Jaqen's contract with Littlefinger is over, he now needs to get in contact with Braavos

4) Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter join the Brave Companions - likely to save their skins, but Jaqen's iron coin might have come into play as well... who knows how this happened.

5) At Harrenhal, Jaqen now has the means to contact Braavos (raven or messenger) - but also meets Arya - to whom he owes a debt.

6) Jaqen, while waiting for a response kills Arya's first two targets (she searched him out both times), once receiving his orders, Jaqen tracks down Arya to ask for her 3rd name so he can fulfill his obligation to her and move on to his next mission.

7) Arya blackmails Jaqen with his own name to help her. Once the northmen are freed then Jaqen gives Arya his coin, changes his face, and moves on to his next assignment.

Now, I would have to check the timing in regards to Littlefinger see if it would still work out if you replaced "contact with Braavos" with "contact with Littlefinger". If Littlefinger was away from King's Landing (going to the Tyrell's) I think we would have to assume that Jaqen is no longer working for Littlefinger at that time.

It works better with Varys controlling Jaqen as opposed to L-Fingah.

 

[jplvr]

sn0mm1s, do you think Aegon is legit or fake?

 

[sn0mm1s]

Can I get a refresher here? Are you talking about Jaquen? Was it known he was there until Arya was on her way north?

Well, we know Jaqen was in the Black Cells at the same time as Ned since Yoren said that is where he got Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter from.

Here is where the theory starts:

Faceless men are the world's premiere assassins. From what we have seen of Arya's training and Jaqen's abilities it seems highly unlikely that he was just caught and tossed in the dungeon. It seems far more likely that he was put there for a reason.

Going off of that premise - who would be Jaqen's potential target? The only person in the dungeons would be Ned. Also, the plan for Ned once he confessed to being a traitor was to go to The Wall with Yoren - so Jaqen is perfectly placed there as well. So - who wants Ned dead and who has had contact with Faceless men? Littlefinger.

Littlefinger hates the Starks - has for a long time. We also know that Littlefinger has approached/had dealings with the Faceless men (he talks about their prices when the Small Council is discussing killing Dany). We also know that Littlefinger's family was initially from Braavos (where the Faceless men reside). On top of that we know that Littlefinger wants chaos. Assuming that Littlefinger wants Ned dead it seems likely that he is the one that influenced Joffrey to execute him (and might have told Slynt since we know Slynt didn't hesitate when Joff called for Ned's head). However, if Cersei, or Varys, or anyone prevented the execution from happening - he has the backup plan of Jaqen going to The Wall. Jaqen is also very skilled about making deaths look like accidents. I wouldn't be surprised if Ned's death was to look like an accident or to look like a Lannister killed him.

This would also explain Jaqen knowing who Arya was when he came across her in the Harrenhal godswood.

Does this theory then continue with Jaqen / Pate in Oldtown?

Not really - or at least not unless there is some evidence that Littlefinger wants something/someone at the Citadel of Oldtown - which I don't think we have directly read or seen. We know Littlefinger is preparing for Dany but making a leap that he wants something from the Citadel seems a bit much without any proof. As it stands here is what I think happened.

1) Littlefinger hires a Faceless man (as detailed above) who turns out to be Jaqen

2) Jaqen, while waiting to escape, has his life, Rorge, and Biter's saved by Arya.

3) Jaqen's contract with Littlefinger is over, he now needs to get in contact with Braavos

4) Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter join the Brave Companions - likely to save their skins, but Jaqen's iron coin might have come into play as well... who knows how this happened.

5) At Harrenhal, Jaqen now has the means to contact Braavos (raven or messenger) - but also meets Arya - to whom he owes a debt.

6) Jaqen, while waiting for a response kills Arya's first two targets (she searched him out both times), once receiving his orders, Jaqen tracks down Arya to ask for her 3rd name so he can fulfill his obligation to her and move on to his next mission.

7) Arya blackmails Jaqen with his own name to help her. Once the northmen are freed then Jaqen gives Arya his coin, changes his face, and moves on to his next assignment.

Now, I would have to check the timing in regards to Littlefinger see if it would still work out if you replaced "contact with Braavos" with "contact with Littlefinger". If Littlefinger was away from King's Landing (going to the Tyrell's) I think we would have to assume that Jaqen is no longer working for Littlefinger at that time.

Where does the Host Of High Heart's premonition of Balon Greyjoy's death by a man without a face come into this? A different FM? Who whistled up that wind?

IMO a different Faceless man - likely one hired by Euron (since he showed up basically as soon as Balon died). From the Arya chapters it is pretty clear there are quite a few Faceless men active in the world.

 

[sn0mm1s]

Can I get a refresher here? Are you talking about Jaquen? Was it known he was there until Arya was on her way north?

Well, we know Jaqen was in the Black Cells at the same time as Ned since Yoren said that is where he got Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter from.

Here is where the theory starts:

Faceless men are the world's premiere assassins. From what we have seen of Arya's training and Jaqen's abilities it seems highly unlikely that he was just caught and tossed in the dungeon. It seems far more likely that he was put there for a reason.

Going off of that premise - who would be Jaqen's potential target? The only person in the dungeons would be Ned. Also, the plan for Ned once he confessed to being a traitor was to go to The Wall with Yoren - so Jaqen is perfectly placed there as well. So - who wants Ned dead and who has had contact with Faceless men? Littlefinger.

Littlefinger hates the Starks - has for a long time. We also know that Littlefinger has approached/had dealings with the Faceless men (he talks about their prices when the Small Council is discussing killing Dany). We also know that Littlefinger's family was initially from Braavos (where the Faceless men reside). On top of that we know that Littlefinger wants chaos. Assuming that Littlefinger wants Ned dead it seems likely that he is the one that influenced Joffrey to execute him (and might have told Slynt since we know Slynt didn't hesitate when Joff called for Ned's head). However, if Cersei, or Varys, or anyone prevented the execution from happening - he has the backup plan of Jaqen going to The Wall. Jaqen is also very skilled about making deaths look like accidents. I wouldn't be surprised if Ned's death was to look like an accident or to look like a Lannister killed him.

This would also explain Jaqen knowing who Arya was when he came across her in the Harrenhal godswood.

Does this theory then continue with Jaqen / Pate in Oldtown?

Not really - or at least not unless there is some evidence that Littlefinger wants something/someone at the Citadel of Oldtown - which I don't think we have directly read or seen. We know Littlefinger is preparing for Dany but making a leap that he wants something from the Citadel seems a bit much without any proof. As it stands here is what I think happened.

1) Littlefinger hires a Faceless man (as detailed above) who turns out to be Jaqen

2) Jaqen, while waiting to escape, has his life, Rorge, and Biter's saved by Arya.

3) Jaqen's contract with Littlefinger is over, he now needs to get in contact with Braavos

4) Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter join the Brave Companions - likely to save their skins, but Jaqen's iron coin might have come into play as well... who knows how this happened.

5) At Harrenhal, Jaqen now has the means to contact Braavos (raven or messenger) - but also meets Arya - to whom he owes a debt.

6) Jaqen, while waiting for a response kills Arya's first two targets (she searched him out both times), once receiving his orders, Jaqen tracks down Arya to ask for her 3rd name so he can fulfill his obligation to her and move on to his next mission.

7) Arya blackmails Jaqen with his own name to help her. Once the northmen are freed then Jaqen gives Arya his coin, changes his face, and moves on to his next assignment.

Now, I would have to check the timing in regards to Littlefinger see if it would still work out if you replaced "contact with Braavos" with "contact with Littlefinger". If Littlefinger was away from King's Landing (going to the Tyrell's) I think we would have to assume that Jaqen is no longer working for Littlefinger at that time.

It works better with Varys controlling Jaqen as opposed to L-Fingah.

I don't think so - (you seemed to like the truthfulness of Varys) if the story Varys told Tyrion was true about how he lost his manly parts then you would think that Varys would not work with any group that practices magic. That exchange seems pretty honest to me - it would be an odd thing to make up otherwise. Also, we know that Varys has access to the dungeons so why would he hire a Faceless man?

 

[sn0mm1s]

sn0mm1s, do you think Aegon is legit or fake?

Fake - but that is really just a guess. There is a fair amount of evidence for either side. The strongest for him being the real deal is Varys' discussion with Kevan as he is dying. As for fake, the House of the Undying, Quaithe, and Moquorro's visions/prophecies.

 

[Mister Martie]

sn0mm1s - Excellent work in here.

 

[Thunderlips]

Can I get a refresher here? Are you talking about Jaquen? Was it known he was there until Arya was on her way north?

Well, we know Jaqen was in the Black Cells at the same time as Ned since Yoren said that is where he got Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter from.

Here is where the theory starts:

Faceless men are the world's premiere assassins. From what we have seen of Arya's training and Jaqen's abilities it seems highly unlikely that he was just caught and tossed in the dungeon. It seems far more likely that he was put there for a reason.

Going off of that premise - who would be Jaqen's potential target? The only person in the dungeons would be Ned. Also, the plan for Ned once he confessed to being a traitor was to go to The Wall with Yoren - so Jaqen is perfectly placed there as well. So - who wants Ned dead and who has had contact with Faceless men? Littlefinger.

Littlefinger hates the Starks - has for a long time. We also know that Littlefinger has approached/had dealings with the Faceless men (he talks about their prices when the Small Council is discussing killing Dany). We also know that Littlefinger's family was initially from Braavos (where the Faceless men reside). On top of that we know that Littlefinger wants chaos. Assuming that Littlefinger wants Ned dead it seems likely that he is the one that influenced Joffrey to execute him (and might have told Slynt since we know Slynt didn't hesitate when Joff called for Ned's head). However, if Cersei, or Varys, or anyone prevented the execution from happening - he has the backup plan of Jaqen going to The Wall. Jaqen is also very skilled about making deaths look like accidents. I wouldn't be surprised if Ned's death was to look like an accident or to look like a Lannister killed him.

This would also explain Jaqen knowing who Arya was when he came across her in the Harrenhal godswood.

Does this theory then continue with Jaqen / Pate in Oldtown?

Not really - or at least not unless there is some evidence that Littlefinger wants something/someone at the Citadel of Oldtown - which I don't think we have directly read or seen. We know Littlefinger is preparing for Dany but making a leap that he wants something from the Citadel seems a bit much without any proof. As it stands here is what I think happened.

1) Littlefinger hires a Faceless man (as detailed above) who turns out to be Jaqen

2) Jaqen, while waiting to escape, has his life, Rorge, and Biter's saved by Arya.

3) Jaqen's contract with Littlefinger is over, he now needs to get in contact with Braavos

4) Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter join the Brave Companions - likely to save their skins, but Jaqen's iron coin might have come into play as well... who knows how this happened.

5) At Harrenhal, Jaqen now has the means to contact Braavos (raven or messenger) - but also meets Arya - to whom he owes a debt.

6) Jaqen, while waiting for a response kills Arya's first two targets (she searched him out both times), once receiving his orders, Jaqen tracks down Arya to ask for her 3rd name so he can fulfill his obligation to her and move on to his next mission.

7) Arya blackmails Jaqen with his own name to help her. Once the northmen are freed then Jaqen gives Arya his coin, changes his face, and moves on to his next assignment.

Now, I would have to check the timing in regards to Littlefinger see if it would still work out if you replaced "contact with Braavos" with "contact with Littlefinger". If Littlefinger was away from King's Landing (going to the Tyrell's) I think we would have to assume that Jaqen is no longer working for Littlefinger at that time.

It works better with Varys controlling Jaqen as opposed to L-Fingah.

I don't think so - (you seemed to like the truthfulness of Varys) if the story Varys told Tyrion was true about how he lost his manly parts then you would think that Varys would not work with any group that practices magic. That exchange seems pretty honest to me - it would be an odd thing to make up otherwise. Also, we know that Varys has access to the dungeons so why would he hire a Faceless man?

to insert Jaqen into the Night's Watch via as a prisoner. As one of (and maybe the head jailer as I don't think they've ever said who was) jailer....he would have say in which prisoners would have access to repenting in order to join the Night's Watch.

 

[sn0mm1s]

Can I get a refresher here? Are you talking about Jaquen? Was it known he was there until Arya was on her way north?

Well, we know Jaqen was in the Black Cells at the same time as Ned since Yoren said that is where he got Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter from.

Here is where the theory starts:

Faceless men are the world's premiere assassins. From what we have seen of Arya's training and Jaqen's abilities it seems highly unlikely that he was just caught and tossed in the dungeon. It seems far more likely that he was put there for a reason.

Going off of that premise - who would be Jaqen's potential target? The only person in the dungeons would be Ned. Also, the plan for Ned once he confessed to being a traitor was to go to The Wall with Yoren - so Jaqen is perfectly placed there as well. So - who wants Ned dead and who has had contact with Faceless men? Littlefinger.

Littlefinger hates the Starks - has for a long time. We also know that Littlefinger has approached/had dealings with the Faceless men (he talks about their prices when the Small Council is discussing killing Dany). We also know that Littlefinger's family was initially from Braavos (where the Faceless men reside). On top of that we know that Littlefinger wants chaos. Assuming that Littlefinger wants Ned dead it seems likely that he is the one that influenced Joffrey to execute him (and might have told Slynt since we know Slynt didn't hesitate when Joff called for Ned's head). However, if Cersei, or Varys, or anyone prevented the execution from happening - he has the backup plan of Jaqen going to The Wall. Jaqen is also very skilled about making deaths look like accidents. I wouldn't be surprised if Ned's death was to look like an accident or to look like a Lannister killed him.

This would also explain Jaqen knowing who Arya was when he came across her in the Harrenhal godswood.

Does this theory then continue with Jaqen / Pate in Oldtown?

Not really - or at least not unless there is some evidence that Littlefinger wants something/someone at the Citadel of Oldtown - which I don't think we have directly read or seen. We know Littlefinger is preparing for Dany but making a leap that he wants something from the Citadel seems a bit much without any proof. As it stands here is what I think happened.

1) Littlefinger hires a Faceless man (as detailed above) who turns out to be Jaqen

2) Jaqen, while waiting to escape, has his life, Rorge, and Biter's saved by Arya.

3) Jaqen's contract with Littlefinger is over, he now needs to get in contact with Braavos

4) Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter join the Brave Companions - likely to save their skins, but Jaqen's iron coin might have come into play as well... who knows how this happened.

5) At Harrenhal, Jaqen now has the means to contact Braavos (raven or messenger) - but also meets Arya - to whom he owes a debt.

6) Jaqen, while waiting for a response kills Arya's first two targets (she searched him out both times), once receiving his orders, Jaqen tracks down Arya to ask for her 3rd name so he can fulfill his obligation to her and move on to his next mission.

7) Arya blackmails Jaqen with his own name to help her. Once the northmen are freed then Jaqen gives Arya his coin, changes his face, and moves on to his next assignment.

Now, I would have to check the timing in regards to Littlefinger see if it would still work out if you replaced "contact with Braavos" with "contact with Littlefinger". If Littlefinger was away from King's Landing (going to the Tyrell's) I think we would have to assume that Jaqen is no longer working for Littlefinger at that time.

It works better with Varys controlling Jaqen as opposed to L-Fingah.

I don't think so - (you seemed to like the truthfulness of Varys) if the story Varys told Tyrion was true about how he lost his manly parts then you would think that Varys would not work with any group that practices magic. That exchange seems pretty honest to me - it would be an odd thing to make up otherwise. Also, we know that Varys has access to the dungeons so why would he hire a Faceless man?

to insert Jaqen into the Night's Watch via as a prisoner. As one of (and maybe the head jailer as I don't think they've ever said who was) jailer....he would have say in which prisoners would have access to repenting in order to join the Night's Watch.

You don't need to be a criminal to join the Night's Watch. You can just join - like Mormont and Jon Snow. There is no need to join The Watch as a criminal. Varys is already a jailer - he is Rugen. He could already choose who would be allowed to join if this was actually a possibility.

 

[shuke]

How do the the jabrones in the TV thread not see that the cup is basically at the Tyrell table, right in front of the Queen of Thorns for the entire pie cutting scene?

1) It wasn't poisoned before as Joffery dumped it on Tyrions head......and Tyrion would have died if inadvertanly tasted some of it (which he claimed to "good vintage")

Christ they frame The QoT watching Tyrion pick the cup up and watching Joffery drink it.

I sure wouldn't want any of those clowns in that thread trying to solve my murder.

I agree, but flysack heard a *clink*.

GO WATCH IT YOURSELF!!#@#$@$

I did again, last night. No clink.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

How do the the jabrones in the TV thread not see that the cup is basically at the Tyrell table, right in front of the Queen of Thorns for the entire pie cutting scene?

1) It wasn't poisoned before as Joffery dumped it on Tyrions head......and Tyrion would have died if inadvertanly tasted some of it (which he claimed to "good vintage")

Christ they frame The QoT watching Tyrion pick the cup up and watching Joffery drink it.

I sure wouldn't want any of those clowns in that thread trying to solve my murder.

I agree, but flysack heard a *clink*.

GO WATCH IT YOURSELF!!#@#$@$

I did again, last night. No clink.

Thank you.

 

[Gnat Berries]

How do the the jabrones in the TV thread not see that the cup is basically at the Tyrell table, right in front of the Queen of Thorns for the entire pie cutting scene?

1) It wasn't poisoned before as Joffery dumped it on Tyrions head......and Tyrion would have died if inadvertanly tasted some of it (which he claimed to "good vintage")

Christ they frame The QoT watching Tyrion pick the cup up and watching Joffery drink it.

I sure wouldn't want any of those clowns in that thread trying to solve my murder.

I agree, but flysack heard a *clink*.

GO WATCH IT YOURSELF!!#@#$@$

I did again, last night. No clink.

Open your mind to the clink, and it will be there.

(you seriously didn't hear it?)

 

[Gnat Berries]

It's exactly at 32:22 into the episode. You hear the clink as Grandma Tyrell's arm strays over the table at Joffery's spot.

How can you not hear it?

 

[shuke]

It's exactly at 32:22 into the episode. You hear the clink as Grandma Tyrell's arm strays over the table at Joffery's spot.

How can you not hear it?

Post a clip.

 

[Mister Martie]

You guys seriously can't hear it?

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Nothing distinguishable. Plus there are people eating with forks etc. I think you guys are hearing what you want to.

 

[Mister Martie]

I don't know why I would want to hear a clink. It happens right after she palms the stone from Sansa's necklace. The necklace being the show's version of the hairnet from the books. It happens with the character identified as the poisoner in the books. I guess it could be just a random fork clink, but I doubt it. I'm sure that scene was carefully orchestrated by the show.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I thought I heard something a couple times, but like Leroy said, I just chalked it up to cups/silverware during dinner.

 

[Gnat Berries]

It's exactly at 32:22 into the episode. You hear the clink as Grandma Tyrell's arm strays over the table at Joffery's spot.

How can you not hear it?

Post a clip.

I'm too tech dumb-dumb to do stuff like that, Shuke.

Someone around here has to be able to do it though.

 

[Gnat Berries]

I've watched that segment around ten times now. It's so loud. Brief, yes, but loud. Like too loud to not be amplified on purpose.

I'm frankly astounded Shuke and others can't hear it when they know what they're looking for. It's THAT obvious.

 

[Sinn Fein]

I've watched that segment around ten times now. It's so loud. Brief, yes, but loud. Like too loud to not be amplified on purpose.

I'm frankly astounded Shuke and others can't hear it when they know what they're looking for. It's THAT obvious.

when is it? I watched it again last night, and have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

How do the the jabrones in the TV thread not see that the cup is basically at the Tyrell table, right in front of the Queen of Thorns for the entire pie cutting scene?

1) It wasn't poisoned before as Joffery dumped it on Tyrions head......and Tyrion would have died if inadvertanly tasted some of it (which he claimed to "good vintage")

Christ they frame The QoT watching Tyrion pick the cup up and watching Joffery drink it.

I sure wouldn't want any of those clowns in that thread trying to solve my murder.

I agree, but flysack heard a *clink*.

GO WATCH IT YOURSELF!!#@#$@$

I did again, last night. No clink.

Agreed. There definite fork on plates sounds though, so we have that going for us.

 

[Thunderlips]

I've watched that segment around ten times now. It's so loud. Brief, yes, but loud. Like too loud to not be amplified on purpose.

I'm frankly astounded Shuke and others can't hear it when they know what they're looking for. It's THAT obvious.

Wouldn't it technically be a BLOOP....as she drops it in a glass filled with wine?

 

[jplvr]

sn0mm1s, do you think Aegon is legit or fake?

Fake - but that is really just a guess. There is a fair amount of evidence for either side. The strongest for him being the real deal is Varys' discussion with Kevan as he is dying. As for fake, the House of the Undying, Quaithe, and Moquorro's visions/prophecies.

Thanks. Theres another place i visit with a lot of got/asoiaf discussion, and one guy totally locked into thinking he is real. He believes Aegon was put into place so Martin can kill Dany. Drogon is going to roast him like that moron from Dorne, but thats me. I just think its a theory for contrarians.

 

[kupcho1]

If you watch with closed captioning they even transcribe "CLINK" during the scene.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

If you watch with closed captioning they even transcribe "CLINK" during the scene.

If this is for real

I almost posted that GRRM wasn't going to put a big neon sign over anything to make sure everyone got it, but then it turns out that he might have.

 

[Gnat Berries]

If you watch with closed captioning they even transcribe "CLINK" during the scene.

This can't be true.

 

[Mjolnirs]

I watched again and I hear nothing. I'm curious, if you are hearing a clink, what is your age range?

Could be some of us are too old.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

I'm old and I did hear a *clink*. But there is no way you can say that it absolutely came from the QoT dropping a jewel in the chalice.

 

[Gnat Berries]

I love that this isn't confirmed yet even mentioning it in the TV only thread got me lynched and banned for a week.