HBO - Song of Ice&Fire Series -Varsity Thread - no TV only whiners (3 Viewers)

[sn0mm1s]

Budding anarchist that I am, I'm starting to wish that Martin never gets Dany to Westeros. There are 7 million fan threads that start with something like "Ok, so when Dany lands.....THEN", like it's a done deal.Why does she have to get there?

We all expect the pieces to fit together nicely at the end. Dany takes her seat as Queen of Westeros. 2 other Targaryans emerge so there are 3 riders for 3 dragons. The white walkers are repelled and the Starks are back at Winterfell. Although we also expected the main protagonist to not die before the end of the first book. Uruk - I agree that things will probably not be wrapped up as nicely as most readers expect.

I think there has to be acceptance....maybe not "wrapped up as nicely". An example in the book would be the North. The readers want the Starks back in charge. The characters in the books (as much as the reader might not like it) MIGHT accept the Boltons as the Wardens of the North. I don't think the books can end without resolution(by the characters) to the main conflicts that have been introduced.

Martin isn't really known for happy endings. From some of the foreshadowing it seems like a few of the Starks will come out OK. However, I wouldn't expect anyone in particular to get what they want when the series ends.

 

[sn0mm1s]

Why don't you reference which post you are trying to support and think I am ignoring.

I'm not the one that's got it wrong. The posts are all here within the last few hours. Read it yourself.

I don't think I have anything wrong - maybe you just don't understand the importance of being a 1st born son of a Lord (which Littlefinger is) compared to being a 3rd born with no prospect of land or inheritance. You obviously don't understand the importance of Harrenhall - which you blow off as being a cursed, token gift when in fact it is the only reason Littlefinger is considered an acceptable match for Lysa Arryn nee Tully. Harrenhall makes Littlefinger a great lord - which is why he asked for it.

 

[mad sweeney]

Why don't you reference which post you are trying to support and think I am ignoring.

I'm not the one that's got it wrong. The posts are all here within the last few hours. Read it yourself.

I don't think I have anything wrong - maybe you just don't understand the importance of being a 1st born son of a Lord (which Littlefinger is) compared to being a 3rd born with no prospect of land or inheritance. You obviously don't understand the importance of Harrenhall - which you blow off as being a cursed, token gift when in fact it is the only reason Littlefinger is considered an acceptable match for Lysa Arryn nee Tully. Harrenhall makes Littlefinger a great lord - which is why he asked for it.

 

[encaitar]

His house was nothing but a name. The Fingers are rocky lands with little resources or income stream, just sheep. Marrying into any other House would be an upward move. So in a sense he's more like the common man than anyone else that has a Name.

Not really, in a feudal society you were someone if you owned land. He wasn't a nothing - he was just one of the least influential nobles.

Yeah, really. You're just reiterating exactly what I said, he was the least of the Houses. The phrase "in a sense" means that it's "not exactly like". And note the capitalized Name in my post. My last sentence above doesn't mean he was common, it means that he was closest to common person than anyone else when you evaluate the wealth and power of all the Houses.

His house was nothing but a name. The Fingers are rocky lands with little resources or income stream, just sheep. Marrying into any other House would be an upward move. So in a sense he's more like the common man than anyone else that has a Name.

Not really, in a feudal society you were someone if you owned land. He wasn't a nothing - he was just one of the least influential nobles.

LittleFinger might be something to the small folk of the realm......but he's nothing to those Houses that are above him. It's said as much. The actions of the Houses in regards are as much. He jokes about it as much. His Name has no power.....but him as a man does.

This is true regarding almost every Lord though. There are only a few Great Houses but even a House such as the Freys are considered well below the Great Houses. Littlefinger wouldn't have been raised with the Tullys if he was just a half step above common folk.

The Freys have an exceptionally useful piece of land that provides the only real place to cross the rivers. All trade in the realm goes through their Twins. They're nothing like the Baelish House, who is probably as low as the Reeds. Brienne was treated by others as a valuable member of another House even though Tarth is a near useless island. Being in a House carries weight, so yes he could be the lowest of the low, but if he's still in a House then he will get raised with the Tullys. It happened, so I am not sure how you can say he wouldn't.

The point is, that even as a relatively low ranking Lord his name still has some weight behind it. It wasn't Littlefinger the clever boy that convinced the great Hoster Tully to take him in due to what he accomplished in his preteen years. His name and rank got him that opportunity.

No, his father befriending Hoster Tully in the War of the NinePenny Kings got him that opportunity. His name was little more than worthless being that his father was a recently landed knight.

 

[sn0mm1s]

His house was nothing but a name. The Fingers are rocky lands with little resources or income stream, just sheep. Marrying into any other House would be an upward move. So in a sense he's more like the common man than anyone else that has a Name.

Not really, in a feudal society you were someone if you owned land. He wasn't a nothing - he was just one of the least influential nobles.

Yeah, really. You're just reiterating exactly what I said, he was the least of the Houses. The phrase "in a sense" means that it's "not exactly like". And note the capitalized Name in my post. My last sentence above doesn't mean he was common, it means that he was closest to common person than anyone else when you evaluate the wealth and power of all the Houses.

His house was nothing but a name. The Fingers are rocky lands with little resources or income stream, just sheep. Marrying into any other House would be an upward move. So in a sense he's more like the common man than anyone else that has a Name.

Not really, in a feudal society you were someone if you owned land. He wasn't a nothing - he was just one of the least influential nobles.

LittleFinger might be something to the small folk of the realm......but he's nothing to those Houses that are above him. It's said as much. The actions of the Houses in regards are as much. He jokes about it as much. His Name has no power.....but him as a man does.

This is true regarding almost every Lord though. There are only a few Great Houses but even a House such as the Freys are considered well below the Great Houses. Littlefinger wouldn't have been raised with the Tullys if he was just a half step above common folk.

The Freys have an exceptionally useful piece of land that provides the only real place to cross the rivers. All trade in the realm goes through their Twins. They're nothing like the Baelish House, who is probably as low as the Reeds. Brienne was treated by others as a valuable member of another House even though Tarth is a near useless island. Being in a House carries weight, so yes he could be the lowest of the low, but if he's still in a House then he will get raised with the Tullys. It happened, so I am not sure how you can say he wouldn't.

The point is, that even as a relatively low ranking Lord his name still has some weight behind it. It wasn't Littlefinger the clever boy that convinced the great Hoster Tully to take him in due to what he accomplished in his preteen years. His name and rank got him that opportunity.

No, his father befriending Hoster Tully in the War of the NinePenny Kings got him that opportunity. His name was little more than worthless being that his father was a recently landed knight.

His father was still a land owning lord and it was exactly his name and rank that got him that opportunity - no different than the Cleganes or any other relatively new house whose progenitor did something to garner favor with the leige lord. Landed Knights are still part of the nobility in Westeros.Here is what I was rebutting. His house was nothing but a name. - Untrue. His house actually has land and a keep unlike someone like Dontos Hollard who only has a name or even the Targs who were laughed at in the Free Cities as their wealth diminished. The Fingers are rocky lands with little resources or income stream, just sheep. - Irrelevant. Marrying into any other House would be an upward move. - Untrue. There are plenty of other houses that hold just as little weight as Littlefinger unless we are claiming there are no other landed knights in Westeros. Not to mention marrying a 3rd daughter or some such of an impoverished house would be a downgrade. So in a sense he's more like the common man than anyone else that has a Name. - See Dontos Hollard or the Norreys.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Budding anarchist that I am, I'm starting to wish that Martin never gets Dany to Westeros. There are 7 million fan threads that start with something like "Ok, so when Dany lands.....THEN", like it's a done deal.Why does she have to get there?

We all expect the pieces to fit together nicely at the end. Dany takes her seat as Queen of Westeros. 2 other Targaryans emerge so there are 3 riders for 3 dragons. The white walkers are repelled and the Starks are back at Winterfell. Although we also expected the main protagonist to not die before the end of the first book. Uruk - I agree that things will probably not be wrapped up as nicely as most readers expect.

I think there has to be acceptance....maybe not "wrapped up as nicely". An example in the book would be the North. The readers want the Starks back in charge. The characters in the books (as much as the reader might not like it) MIGHT accept the Boltons as the Wardens of the North. I don't think the books can end without resolution(by the characters) to the main conflicts that have been introduced.

Martin isn't really known for happy endings. From some of the foreshadowing it seems like a few of the Starks will come out OK. However, I wouldn't expect anyone in particular to get what they want when the series ends.

Agreed. Oh there will be "resolution" alright, but I don't think it'll be what most fans will consider the "right" one. I don't trust Martin as far as I could throw his fat, scraggly ### (I say that with all due affection).

Martin has said the ending will be "bittersweet". What the hell does that mean?

What if Dany decides, instead of sitting the Iron Throne, she wants to resurrect Old Valyria?

Hell - for all we know, the Others may be the good guys.

 

[Thunderlips]

His house was nothing but a name. The Fingers are rocky lands with little resources or income stream, just sheep. Marrying into any other House would be an upward move. So in a sense he's more like the common man than anyone else that has a Name.

Not really, in a feudal society you were someone if you owned land. He wasn't a nothing - he was just one of the least influential nobles.

Yeah, really. You're just reiterating exactly what I said, he was the least of the Houses. The phrase "in a sense" means that it's "not exactly like". And note the capitalized Name in my post. My last sentence above doesn't mean he was common, it means that he was closest to common person than anyone else when you evaluate the wealth and power of all the Houses.

His house was nothing but a name. The Fingers are rocky lands with little resources or income stream, just sheep. Marrying into any other House would be an upward move. So in a sense he's more like the common man than anyone else that has a Name.

Not really, in a feudal society you were someone if you owned land. He wasn't a nothing - he was just one of the least influential nobles.

LittleFinger might be something to the small folk of the realm......but he's nothing to those Houses that are above him. It's said as much. The actions of the Houses in regards are as much. He jokes about it as much. His Name has no power.....but him as a man does.

This is true regarding almost every Lord though. There are only a few Great Houses but even a House such as the Freys are considered well below the Great Houses. Littlefinger wouldn't have been raised with the Tullys if he was just a half step above common folk.

Not anymore.

The story has shown that there are Bannerman who carry almost as much clout as the Seven Houses; and who have the ability and resources to be pushed or go up; as the Boltons and Freys have. Jamie says as much to Brienne "

"“Every great lord has unruly bannermen who envy him his place,” he told her afterward. “My father had the Reynes and Tarbecks, the Tyrells have the Florents, Hoster Tully had Walder Frey. Only strength keeps such men in their place. The moment they smell weakness... during the Age of Heroes, the Boltons used to flay the Starks and wear their skins as cloaks.”

 

[mad sweeney]

sn0mm1s, on 11 May 2013 - 23:33, said:

encaitar, on 11 May 2013 - 22:18, said:

sn0mm1s, on 11 May 2013 - 15:11, said:

mad sweeney, on 11 May 2013 - 15:03, said:

sn0mm1s, on 11 May 2013 - 14:58, said:

Thunderlips, on 11 May 2013 - 11:20, said:

mad sweeney, on 11 May 2013 - 09:51, said:

sn0mm1s, on 11 May 2013 - 09:43, said:Not really, in a feudal society you were someone if you owned land. He wasn't a nothing - he was just one of the least influential nobles.

Yeah, really. You're just reiterating exactly what I said, he was the least of the Houses. The phrase "in a sense" means that it's "not exactly like". And note the capitalized Name in my post. My last sentence above doesn't mean he was common, it means that he was closest to common person than anyone else when you evaluate the wealth and power of all the Houses.

>sn0mm1s said:

mad sweeney, on 11 May 2013 - 09:06, said:His house was nothing but a name. The Fingers are rocky lands with little resources or income stream, just sheep. Marrying into any other House would be an upward move. So in a sense he's more like the common man than anyone else that has a Name.

Not really, in a feudal society you were someone if you owned land. He wasn't a nothing - he was just one of the least influential nobles.>

LittleFinger might be something to the small folk of the realm......but he's nothing to those Houses that are above him. It's said as much. The actions of the Houses in regards are as much. He jokes about it as much. His Name has no power.....but him as a man does.

This is true regarding almost every Lord though. There are only a few Great Houses but even a House such as the Freys are considered well below the Great Houses. Littlefinger wouldn't have been raised with the Tullys if he was just a half step above common folk.

The Freys have an exceptionally useful piece of land that provides the only real place to cross the rivers. All trade in the realm goes through their Twins. They're nothing like the Baelish House, who is probably as low as the Reeds. Brienne was treated by others as a valuable member of another House even though Tarth is a near useless island. Being in a House carries weight, so yes he could be the lowest of the low, but if he's still in a House then he will get raised with the Tullys. It happened, so I am not sure how you can say he wouldn't.

The point is, that even as a relatively low ranking Lord his name still has some weight behind it. It wasn't Littlefinger the clever boy that convinced the great Hoster Tully to take him in due to what he accomplished in his preteen years. His name and rank got him that opportunity.

No, his father befriending Hoster Tully in the War of the NinePenny Kings got him that opportunity. His name was little more than worthless being that his father was a recently landed knight.

His father was still a land owning lord and it was exactly his name and rank that got him that opportunity - no different than the Cleganes or any other relatively new house whose progenitor did something to garner favor with the leige lord. Landed Knights are still part of the nobility in Westeros.Here is what I was rebutting.His house was nothing but a name. - Untrue. His house actually has land and a keep unlike someone like Dontos Hollard who only has a name or even the Targs who were laughed at in the Free Cities as their wealth diminished.The Fingers are rocky lands with little resources or income stream, just sheep. - Irrelevant.Marrying into any other House would be an upward move. - Untrue. There are plenty of other houses that hold just as little weight as Littlefinger unless we are claiming there are no other landed knights in Westeros. Not to mention marrying a 3rd daughter or some such of an impoverished house would be a downgrade.So in a sense he's more like the common man than anyone else that has a Name. - See Dontos Hollard or the Norreys.

I love how the fact that proves my point is irrelevant because it goes against your rebuttal. You want to get super semantic about it, fine, then ad "just about" to every statement, but it doesn't change the point at all, that Baeilsh is just about the very bottom of the Names.

 

[sn0mm1s]

His house was nothing but a name. The Fingers are rocky lands with little resources or income stream, just sheep. Marrying into any other House would be an upward move. So in a sense he's more like the common man than anyone else that has a Name.

Not really, in a feudal society you were someone if you owned land. He wasn't a nothing - he was just one of the least influential nobles.

Yeah, really. You're just reiterating exactly what I said, he was the least of the Houses. The phrase "in a sense" means that it's "not exactly like". And note the capitalized Name in my post. My last sentence above doesn't mean he was common, it means that he was closest to common person than anyone else when you evaluate the wealth and power of all the Houses.

His house was nothing but a name. The Fingers are rocky lands with little resources or income stream, just sheep. Marrying into any other House would be an upward move. So in a sense he's more like the common man than anyone else that has a Name.

Not really, in a feudal society you were someone if you owned land. He wasn't a nothing - he was just one of the least influential nobles.ockquote>

LittleFinger might be something to the small folk of the realm......but he's nothing to those Houses that are above him. It's said as much. The actions of the Houses in regards are as much. He jokes about it as much. His Name has no power.....but him as a man does.

This is true regarding almost every Lord though. There are only a few Great Houses but even a House such as the Freys are considered well below the Great Houses. Littlefinger wouldn't have been raised with the Tullys if he was just a half step above common folk.

Not anymore.

The story has shown that there are Bannerman who carry almost as much clout as the Seven Houses; and who have the ability and resources to be pushed or go up; as the Boltons and Freys have. Jamie says as much to Brienne "

"“Every great lord has unruly bannermen who envy him his place,” he told her afterward. “My father had the Reynes and Tarbecks, the Tyrells have the Florents, Hoster Tully had Walder Frey. Only strength keeps such men in their place. The moment they smell weakness... during the Age of Heroes, the Boltons used to flay the Starks and wear their skins as cloaks.”

The story has shown that the power structure isn't static.

Spoiler

Just because the Tullys are more or less a destroyed House doesn't change the fact that, when it comes to marriage, the Freys were well beneath the Tullys in Hoster Tully's eyes. He wed one of his daughters to the heir of Winterfell. He tried to marry the other of his daughters to Jaime Lannister. He later married a stained daughter to Jon Arryn. Tywin didn't want his sister to wed a Frey for that same reason. The point is comparing someone like Littlefinger to the Great Houses doesn't mean all that much when even Houses such as the Freys aren't considered good enough for the Great Houses. Hell, the Tyrells even turned down Cersei.

 

[sn0mm1s]

I love how the fact that proves my point is irrelevant because it goes against your rebuttal. You want to get super semantic about it, fine, then ad "just about" to every statement, but it doesn't change the point at all, that Baeilsh is just about the very bottom of the Names.

I am not being super semantic when you compare Baelish to the common man. He is light years ahead of the common man. He is a lord with land - that is nothing close to the common man in Westeros. Just because that land isn't anything special is irrelevant.

 

[ScottNorwood]

I love how the fact that proves my point is irrelevant because it goes against your rebuttal. You want to get super semantic about it, fine, then ad "just about" to every statement, but it doesn't change the point at all, that Baeilsh is just about the very bottom of the Names.

I am not being super semantic when you compare Baelish to the common man. He is light years ahead of the common man. He is a lord with land - that is nothing close to the common man in Westeros. Just because that land isn't anything special is irrelevant.

Take it to PM guys. No one else besides you 2 cares

 

[Psychopav]

Don't his commoners treat Littlefinger like a lord when he goes home in the books? That doesn't put an end to the argument but might add some context.

 

[ScottNorwood]

Don't his commoners treat Littlefinger like a lord when he goes home in the books? That doesn't put an end to the argument but might add some context.

Don't encourage them

 

[bonesman]

Don't his commoners treat Littlefinger like a lord when he goes home in the books? That doesn't put an end to the argument but might add some context.

Don't encourage them

#### that... the only interesting topic of convo in this thread for pages and pages. And it doesn't need to be put in spoilers.... carry on!

(sn0m is clearly pwning BTW)

 

[sn0mm1s]

Budding anarchist that I am, I'm starting to wish that Martin never gets Dany to Westeros. There are 7 million fan threads that start with something like "Ok, so when Dany lands.....THEN", like it's a done deal.Why does she have to get there?

We all expect the pieces to fit together nicely at the end. Dany takes her seat as Queen of Westeros. 2 other Targaryans emerge so there are 3 riders for 3 dragons. The white walkers are repelled and the Starks are back at Winterfell. Although we also expected the main protagonist to not die before the end of the first book. Uruk - I agree that things will probably not be wrapped up as nicely as most readers expect.

I think there has to be acceptance....maybe not "wrapped up as nicely". An example in the book would be the North. The readers want the Starks back in charge. The characters in the books (as much as the reader might not like it) MIGHT accept the Boltons as the Wardens of the North. I don't think the books can end without resolution(by the characters) to the main conflicts that have been introduced.

Martin isn't really known for happy endings. From some of the foreshadowing it seems like a few of the Starks will come out OK. However, I wouldn't expect anyone in particular to get what they want when the series ends.

Agreed. Oh there will be "resolution" alright, but I don't think it'll be what most fans will consider the "right" one. I don't trust Martin as far as I could throw his fat, scraggly ### (I say that with all due affection).

Martin has said the ending will be "bittersweet". What the hell does that mean?

What if Dany decides, instead of sitting the Iron Throne, she wants to resurrect Old Valyria?

Hell - for all we know, the Others may be the good guys.

Spoiler

Bittersweet - The Others are defeated but The Wall falls, the dragons are once again killed, Dany dies (or since she may be barren) and their is no heir even if she does conquer Westeros. The Children of the Forest all die and R'hllor and his followers end up ruling Westeros.

 

[Thunderlips]

Don't his commoners treat Littlefinger like a lord when he goes home in the books? That doesn't put an end to the argument but might add some context.

IIRC....he only was Lord of like 3 people.

 

[EYLive]

Not sure who's point this supports but:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Petyr_Baelish

Petyr Baelish’s great-grandfather was a Braavosi sellsword in the service of Lord Corbray; when his son became a hedge knight he took the stone head of the Titan of Braavos as his sigil. Lord Baelish’s father was the smallest of small lords of a few rocky acres on the smallest of the Fingers. His father befriended Hoster Tully during their service in the War of the Ninepenny Kings, which led to Petyr being sent to be fostered at Riverrun with Lord Tully’s children.[2]

Being labled a "lord" in this instance is like any of us declaring ourselves masters of our domain. And his "land" is like having a large back yard. The guy is a nobody, his name doesn't help him one bit. His brain is what got him his position.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

I thnk we get Arya meeting her new friend tonight because grrm will have enjoyed writing the dialogue.

 

[Abrantes]

The Littlefinger lord/merchant discussion is mind-numbingly boring, and even worse that it stems from Westeros.org nonsense. Carry on, though.

The Robb/Talisa and Jon/Ygritte scenes were really good this week, and added a sense of weight to their relationships that had been missing up to this point. Sansa/Margaery was great too. The Theon storyline had been mostly treading water, but has now jumped the shark. Felt queasy watching GRRM living out his sexual fantasies vicariously on screen with Theon and Zoot. Not really sure what they're doing with the whole storyline, other than just saying "hey, don't forget this character! He still exists!" I'm not sure if the reveal that the torturer is the ******* of Bolton will be that big of a deal either, so I'm not sure why they're waiting for it.

 

[mad sweeney]

I love how the fact that proves my point is irrelevant because it goes against your rebuttal. You want to get super semantic about it, fine, then ad "just about" to every statement, but it doesn't change the point at all, that Baeilsh is just about the very bottom of the Names.

I am not being super semantic when you compare Baelish to the common man. He is light years ahead of the common man. He is a lord with land - that is nothing close to the common man in Westeros. Just because that land isn't anything special is irrelevant.

I didn't compare him to the common man, that's why it's so funny that you keep throwing out loads of nonsense. You can tell (or at least someone with basic English skills can tell) that I am not comparing him to the common man by when I say he's more than the common man.

 

[mad sweeney]

Don't his commoners treat Littlefinger like a lord when he goes home in the books? That doesn't put an end to the argument but might add some context.

Don't encourage them

#### that... the only interesting topic of convo in this thread for pages and pages. And it doesn't need to be put in spoilers.... carry on!

(sn0m is clearly pwning BTW)

If he was actually arguing against people who said what he thinks they said, then maybe. But since his entire premise he's arguing against is wrong, he pretty much can't own. In point of fact, everything he writes owns himself.

 

[mad sweeney]

The Littlefinger lord/merchant discussion is mind-numbingly boring, and even worse that it stems from Westeros.org nonsense. Carry on, though. The Robb/Talisa and Jon/Ygritte scenes were really good this week, and added a sense of weight to their relationships that had been missing up to this point. Sansa/Margaery was great too. The Theon storyline had been mostly treading water, but has now jumped the shark. Felt queasy watching GRRM living out his sexual fantasies vicariously on screen with Theon and Zoot. Not really sure what they're doing with the whole storyline, other than just saying "hey, don't forget this character! He still exists!" I'm not sure if the reveal that the torturer is the ******* of Bolton will be that big of a deal either, so I'm not sure why they're waiting for it.

I'm pretty shuked about Theon myself. I'm just trusting that they have a reason for it. I didn't care for much of the rest of the episode either. It could be just be coming down from what I thought have been the best episodes of the season. I expected some payoff for all the setup episodes, though that means even more in the remaining ones. No Oona-boobs, and screw Dany for making Misandei change out of her cleavage outfit!

Spoiler

They're setting up the Red Wedding spectacularly though for the book fans. And some Joffrey wedding too. All the triumphant music with Robb and his chess board, the giant upswing in the Robb/Oona relationship, the baby, the idiot uncle... Over in the whiney non book thread someone posited that the last episode would be the assault on Casterly Rock!!! I think they're buying it and some might even start to complain that the build up to the assault, or whatever they think is going to happen, is too formulaic... As for the Joffrey foreshadowing, it seems like the last 2-3 episodes have featured a lot emphasis on wine pitchers and people accepting/refusing glasses poured by others. I wonder if I'm right that they are featuring it more, if they're going to go bang-bang with the Red Wedding that crushes the hearts of viewers and then the final episode kill off Joffrey to give them a small consolation prize.

eta:

Spoiler

IIRC, Robb's wife doesn't go to the RW in the book and just shuffles off out of the story afterwards. I think she's dead too now after the baby news. Not sure how a Stark prince wandering around would affect the future storylines, but not enough IMO to bother with.

 

[Abrantes]

Spoiler

The "Robb attacks Casterly Rock in the last episode" speculation is almost as amusing as "Dany storms Westeros with her dragons/khalasar in season 2" in between seasons 1 and 2.

The conspiracy theory revolving around the description of Jeyne's hips in the books is one of the few that I buy as legit, so indirectly, Talisa's pregnancy is very interesting to me. I realize that they make it a point to say that Jeyne was force-fed milk of the poppy to stop any potential pregnancy, and Talisa's baby could be taken out of the equation in the show as well, but it will be very interesting if this is a case of the show pointing the way to something that's still coming up in the books. I hope that's the case. More interesting than the baby just being killed 'cause whatever.

 

[mad sweeney]

Spoiler

The "Robb attacks Casterly Rock in the last episode" speculation is almost as amusing as "Dany storms Westeros with her dragons/khalasar in season 2" in between seasons 1 and 2. The conspiracy theory revolving around the description of Jeyne's hips in the books is one of the few that I buy as legit, so indirectly, Talisa's pregnancy is very interesting to me. I realize that they make it a point to say that Jeyne was force-fed milk of the poppy to stop any potential pregnancy, and Talisa's baby could be taken out of the equation in the show as well, but it will be very interesting if this is a case of the show pointing the way to something that's still coming up in the books. I hope that's the case. More interesting than the baby just being killed 'cause whatever.

Jayne and Talisa are both names for Robb's queen, right? I'm sticking with the matter being resolved in the way I predicted it above, though it would be interesting if/when things in the show point to things in future books.

 

[mad sweeney]

Spoiler

The "Robb attacks Casterly Rock in the last episode" speculation is almost as amusing as "Dany storms Westeros with her dragons/khalasar in season 2" in between seasons 1 and 2. The conspiracy theory revolving around the description of Jeyne's hips in the books is one of the few that I buy as legit, so indirectly, Talisa's pregnancy is very interesting to me. I realize that they make it a point to say that Jeyne was force-fed milk of the poppy to stop any potential pregnancy, and Talisa's baby could be taken out of the equation in the show as well, but it will be very interesting if this is a case of the show pointing the way to something that's still coming up in the books. I hope that's the case. More interesting than the baby just being killed 'cause whatever.

Jayne and Talisa are both names for Robb's queen, right? I'm sticking with the matter being resolved in the way I predicted it above, though it would be interesting if/when things in the show point to things in future books. I find the current speculation far more interesting than the other one you mention by how things work out.

 

[mad sweeney]

More foreshadowing for book finishers...

Spoiler

Tyrion's gift of a nice thick chain as a gift to try and soothe Shae. Just thick enough for Wayne Brady to choke a #####.

And the dragons looked great!

 

[anakin]

More foreshadowing for book finishers...

Spoiler

Tyrion's gift of a nice thick chain as a gift to try and soothe Shae. Just thick enough for Wayne Brady to choke a #####.

And the dragons looked great!

LOL truer words have never been typed.

 

[pantherclub]

Danys whole freeing the slaves bit is just as annoying on TV as it is in the books.

Really not understanding the Theon angle.

Lots and lots of foreshadowing in last nights episode.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

The Theon "thing" is that he's a main character of the show and a good actor. Instead of disappearing a guy for a few seasons and discovering him all fuxked up, we get to watch him dissolve. It's sadistic, but I don't mind seeing it it real time rather than flashbacks. I wonder if Robb will get his gift from Ransay though.

I think there's a real good chance that

Spoiler

Talisa's letter was to Tywin, not her "mother" and I'm 99.9% certain that Joffrey's wedding will be episode 2 or 3 next season.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Did Tywin smile while walking away from Joffrey? Tywin never smiles.

 

[Thunderlips]

Wasn't there a guestion in the books if Ramsey cut Theon's twig and berries off?......If so, I guess Martin wanted to settle that one personally.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

I liked the episode, but felt they wasted GRRM on it. He didn't have much to work with really.

 

[Sabertooth]

I don't recall Theon being castratedin the books. I thought it was stated otherwise actually.

 

[ScottNorwood]

Wasn't there a guestion in the books if Ramsey cut Theon's twig and berries off?......If so, I guess Martin wanted to settle that one personally.

I think it was left ambiguous as to whether it happens or if they are just scaring him.

 

[Abrantes]

The Theon "thing" is that he's a main character of the show and a good actor. Instead of disappearing a guy for a few seasons and discovering him all fuxked up, we get to watch him dissolve. It's sadistic, but I don't mind seeing it it real time rather than flashbacks. I wonder if Robb will get his gift from Ransay though.I think there's a real good chance that

Spoiler

Talisa's letter was to Tywin, not her "mother" and I'm 99.9% certain that Joffrey's wedding will be episode 2 or 3 next season.

I get that they want to keep Alfie on screen, and said as much. What puzzles me is that they're making his storyline ridiculous. Was there really no way to tell the story other than torture porn and sub-fanfic-level sexual setups? The Ramsay/Reek storyline is responsible for one of the most over-the-top scenes in the books as well (Ramsay's "wedding gift" from Theon), so it shouldn't surprise me that GRRM wants to get his rocks off, but I was hoping for less of that.

As for your spoiler:

Spoiler

I agree that the letter was suspicious. Being written in Valyrian was handy to throw off suspicion, but if the letter was meaningless, why would they have shown it at all? Does Tywin (or whomever's plotting against Robb) know Valyrian? I suppose he could have a translator, if necessary, but if she's really going to be a spy, they're doing a good job of not tipping their hand.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Danys whole freeing the slaves bit is just as annoying on TV as it is in the books.

Really not understanding the Theon angle.

Lots and lots of foreshadowing in last nights episode.

Really not understanding people not understanding the Theon angle.

In the books we learned what happened to Theon after the fact. In the show - they are simply filling in the blanks - i.e. all of this happened to Theon in the books during this time frame. For a non-bookreader - I could understand why it might be tough to bring an actor back after a few seasons, only he is playing a completely broken character.

Maybe it could have been interesting to introduce Reek in Season 5 or 6 and have the audience try to guess who he is - but this is also a reasonable approach. I'll assume that the torture will be complete this season, and next season, he'll spend his time as Reek, completely subservient.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Didn't the bear pit and aftermath go differently in the book? I can't recall.

 

[sn0mm1s]

Didn't the bear pit and aftermath go differently in the book? I can't recall.

Spoiler

Yes, Jaime jumped down and the bear was killed by Steelshanks + others with crossbows. There was no Locke - Vargo Hoat held Brienne and he had to give her up because he was outnumbered by Bolton's men.

 

[mad sweeney]

Did Tywin smile while walking away from Joffrey? Tywin never smiles.

Well, it was more of a smirk, but yes.

 

[sn0mm1s]

Wasn't there a guestion in the books if Ramsey cut Theon's twig and berries off?......If so, I guess Martin wanted to settle that one personally.

I think it was left ambiguous as to whether it happens or if they are just scaring him.

Spoiler

It is pretty clear in the books that Theon was castrated.

 

[mad sweeney]

Danys whole freeing the slaves bit is just as annoying on TV as it is in the books.

Really not understanding the Theon angle.

Lots and lots of foreshadowing in last nights episode.

Really not understanding people not understanding the Theon angle.

In the books we learned what happened to Theon after the fact. In the show - they are simply filling in the blanks - i.e. all of this happened to Theon in the books during this time frame. For a non-bookreader - I could understand why it might be tough to bring an actor back after a few seasons, only he is playing a completely broken character.

Maybe it could have been interesting to introduce Reek in Season 5 or 6 and have the audience try to guess who he is - but this is also a reasonable approach. I'll assume that the torture will be complete this season, and next season, he'll spend his time as Reek, completely subservient.

My question is why is there two scenes of it every week. Not all the characters get scenes every week, yet Theon is prominent in every episode. It's curious, with so much ahead for so many characters that they give this much time to his torture.

 

[Runningman]

Danys whole freeing the slaves bit is just as annoying on TV as it is in the books.

Really not understanding the Theon angle.

Lots and lots of foreshadowing in last nights episode.

Really not understanding people not understanding the Theon angle.

In the books we learned what happened to Theon after the fact. In the show - they are simply filling in the blanks - i.e. all of this happened to Theon in the books during this time frame. For a non-bookreader - I could understand why it might be tough to bring an actor back after a few seasons, only he is playing a completely broken character.

Maybe it could have been interesting to introduce Reek in Season 5 or 6 and have the audience try to guess who he is - but this is also a reasonable approach. I'll assume that the torture will be complete this season, and next season, he'll spend his time as Reek, completely subservient.

My question is why is there two scenes of it every week. Not all the characters get scenes every week, yet Theon is prominent in every episode. It's curious, with so much ahead for so many characters that they give this much time to his torture.

Yeah not so sure why so much screen time every week. Maybe Martin is hinting to them an ending. not yet written in the books.

 

[pantherclub]

Danys whole freeing the slaves bit is just as annoying on TV as it is in the books. Really not understanding the Theon angle. Lots and lots of foreshadowing in last nights episode.

Really not understanding people not understanding the Theon angle. In the books we learned what happened to Theon after the fact. In the show - they are simply filling in the blanks - i.e. all of this happened to Theon in the books during this time frame. For a non-bookreader - I could understand why it might be tough to bring an actor back after a few seasons, only he is playing a completely broken character. Maybe it could have been interesting to introduce Reek in Season 5 or 6 and have the audience try to guess who he is - but this is also a reasonable approach. I'll assume that the torture will be complete this season, and next season, he'll spend his time as Reek, completely subservient.

My question is why is there two scenes of it every week. Not all the characters get scenes every week, yet Theon is prominent in every episode. It's curious, with so much ahead for so many characters that they give this much time to his torture.

Spoiler

plus his storyline pretty much is stagnant and left alone until the last book. Maybe they are just hammering home that he is being tortured and they will drop him out of sight for a few seasons.

 

[Sabertooth]

I think GRRM is a bit of a sadist perv to be honest. I think he gets his rocks off on it.

 

[ScottNorwood]

Danys whole freeing the slaves bit is just as annoying on TV as it is in the books. Really not understanding the Theon angle. Lots and lots of foreshadowing in last nights episode.

Really not understanding people not understanding the Theon angle. In the books we learned what happened to Theon after the fact. In the show - they are simply filling in the blanks - i.e. all of this happened to Theon in the books during this time frame. For a non-bookreader - I could understand why it might be tough to bring an actor back after a few seasons, only he is playing a completely broken character. Maybe it could have been interesting to introduce Reek in Season 5 or 6 and have the audience try to guess who he is - but this is also a reasonable approach. I'll assume that the torture will be complete this season, and next season, he'll spend his time as Reek, completely subservient.

My question is why is there two scenes of it every week. Not all the characters get scenes every week, yet Theon is prominent in every episode. It's curious, with so much ahead for so many characters that they give this much time to his torture.

Spoiler

plus his storyline pretty much is stagnant and left alone until the last book. Maybe they are just hammering home that he is being tortured and they will drop him out of sight for a few seasons.

Spoiler

I think the scenes are meant more the establish Ramsey Bolton, because he becomes a major player later. However I think they could've waited until next season for this, and I agree that they are spending too much time there.

 

[Abrantes]

I think GRRM is a bit of a sadist perv to be honest. I think he gets his rocks off on it.

Absolutely. Making his characters suffer seems to come more naturally than giving them even the slightest measure of happiness.

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

The Theon story line has been one of the better ones in the HBO version. In the show, we got his POV well before he became Reek so we had a more intimate look at his story arc. The gravity of his choices was something the book really didn't delve into (it was presumed - reading between the lines).

Showing his descent this way makes sense to me. Also, it might make his attempt at redemption down the road a little more meaningful (Jeyne Poole, ect.). Essentially, the Show has created a pretty significant POV that never existed in the books (until Reek emerges).

 

[Thunderlips]

The Theon story line has been one of the better ones in the HBO version. In the show, we got his POV well before he became Reek so we had a more intimate look at his story arc. The gravity of his choices was something the book really didn't delve into (it was presumed - reading between the lines). Showing his descent this way makes sense to me. Also, it might make his attempt at redemption down the road a little more meaningful (Jeyne Poole, ect.). Essentially, the Show has created a pretty significant POV that never existed in the books (until Reek emerges).

I agree. They nailed with his admission that he wrong and that his father died at Kings Landing.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

The Theon story line has been one of the better ones in the HBO version. In the show, we got his POV well before he became Reek so we had a more intimate look at his story arc. The gravity of his choices was something the book really didn't delve into (it was presumed - reading between the lines). Showing his descent this way makes sense to me. Also, it might make his attempt at redemption down the road a little more meaningful (Jeyne Poole, ect.). Essentially, the Show has created a pretty significant POV that never existed in the books (until Reek emerges).

I agree. They nailed with his admission that he wrong and that his father died at Kings Landing.

Yea, I don't get all the Theon hate. While I like reading the reviews and analysis over at Westeros.org, they really come off as whiny when complaining about Theon, Cat Stark, and any nudity/sex/love whatsoever.

 

[Gr00vus]

The Theon story line has been one of the better ones in the HBO version. In the show, we got his POV well before he became Reek so we had a more intimate look at his story arc. The gravity of his choices was something the book really didn't delve into (it was presumed - reading between the lines). Showing his descent this way makes sense to me. Also, it might make his attempt at redemption down the road a little more meaningful (Jeyne Poole, ect.). Essentially, the Show has created a pretty significant POV that never existed in the books (until Reek emerges).

I agree. They nailed with his admission that he wrong and that his father died at Kings Landing.

Yea, I don't get all the Theon hate. While I like reading the reviews and analysis over at Westeros.org, they really come off as whiny when complaining about Theon, Cat Stark, and any nudity/sex/love whatsoever.

It feels a little bit like a waste of time though, considering how much other stuff we're expecting them to deal with. In fact, much of last night's episode seemed like a waste of time, and most of the stuff that wasn't a waste of time wasn't very interesting. It would be awesome if Robb's wife is Tywin's agent though. They showed the first two words she'd written in that letter - anyone know what they were?