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HBO - Song of Ice&Fire Series -Varsity Thread - no TV only whiners (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter Sabertooth
- Start date
Thunderlips
Footballguy
Another thing about the Theon stuff is that after the end of Season III, Theon is pretty much the last tie to the North from the first Season still in the North....at least for the next two or three seasons. The show didn't develop any northerners other than the Starks and Theon. Theon will be the POV for the viewer and it wouldn't surprise me if the show kind of condenses the Iron Islanders and the remaining Northern Houses as the opposition to the Boltons.
Instinctive
Footballguy
Wow. Love this thread:
Qyburn "healed" the Mountain, resulting in the silent Kingsguard member. In case we needed more confirmation on this.
I had no idea about the Sandor stuff. That's kinda cool.
I had no idea about the Sandor stuff. That's kinda cool.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
I caught the Hound stuff but don't remember the Mountain. I tried to start book 3 last week but then I found myself getting temporally displaced when watching the show, so I put it down and will probably read it and 4&5 after this season. That ought to get me straight in most plot lines and I won't have to reread if there's ever another book.
Notorious T.R.E.
Showdown!™ Administrator
Yeah, I pretty much agree with this. It's not like I thought he was a good dude in the books.
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
He is pretty bold right from the outset - at least in hindsight.
Lots of spoilers forthcoming from all books:
1) He is likely responsible for telling Jon Arryn and Stannis that the royal children are really bastards of Jaime and Cersei
2) He is responsible for murdering Jon Arryn.
3) He is responsible for framing the Lannisters for that murder
These first three all happen in the first 50 pages or so in the first book.
4) He is responsible for framing Tyrion for the attempt on Bran.
5) He is responsible for the betrayal of Ned.
6) He is likely responsible for Jaqen Hghar being part of the group headed to the wall, and he might be partly responsible for Ned's beheading.
1-6 are in the first book/season.
7) He is responsible for the betrayal of Sansa's marriage into the Tyrells.
Future spoilers
8) He is directly involved in Joffrey's death and Sansa's disappearance.
9) He is responsible for Lysa's murder.
10) He is planning on supporting (or at least appearing to support) whichever Targaryen that returns to Westeros.
That is just the stuff off the top of my head.
Lots of spoilers forthcoming from all books:
1) He is likely responsible for telling Jon Arryn and Stannis that the royal children are really bastards of Jaime and Cersei
2) He is responsible for murdering Jon Arryn.
3) He is responsible for framing the Lannisters for that murder
These first three all happen in the first 50 pages or so in the first book.
4) He is responsible for framing Tyrion for the attempt on Bran.
5) He is responsible for the betrayal of Ned.
6) He is likely responsible for Jaqen Hghar being part of the group headed to the wall, and he might be partly responsible for Ned's beheading.
1-6 are in the first book/season.
7) He is responsible for the betrayal of Sansa's marriage into the Tyrells.
Future spoilers
8) He is directly involved in Joffrey's death and Sansa's disappearance.
9) He is responsible for Lysa's murder.
10) He is planning on supporting (or at least appearing to support) whichever Targaryen that returns to Westeros.
That is just the stuff off the top of my head.
Shadowfax
Footballguy
The actor playing Greatjon had a scheduling conflict for season 2. Rumor has it, he wasn't invited back for season 3 and his character and personalities were rolled into the Blackfish. Not sure how they're going to handle the Umbers and the Blackfish going forward.Leeroy Jenkins said:Yea, I'm realizing how lazily I read the last 2 books. Maybe I need to reread now and again when wow comes out. When I went and read the theory yesterday though, I recalled thinking the same thing at the time if my first read. It's just I'm forgetting entire storylines apparently. Getting old.shuke said:Where has great Jon umber been this season?
JerseyToughGuys
Tough Guy
I wonder if we will get to see Grey Wind's head mounted on Robb's shoulders. I always thought that was a particularly stunning example of the brutality of the whole event. Reading it allowed me to conjure up the visual, but I am not sure anything short of a visual depiction in the show will do it justice (i.e., a convo about it)
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
The books are definitely worth the read. The show, as good as it is, is very condensed. Of course, you will already know the big reveals but in some ways that is good because it is like you are reading the books a second time and can pick up on hints and clues that you would likely miss on the first read.
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
mad sweeney
Footballguy
I am sure they will do it. Yes. Wouldn't be surprised to see the top half of that pairing get featured more soon.
The Gator
Footballguy
Amused to Death
Footballguy
I posted this in the non-book thread:
If you have the time, I recommend reading them. Even watching the series through season 2, I started book 1 during the last off-season. Knowing some of the outcomes didn't ruin my enjoyment at all. I am not a fast reader by any stretch but got through 1 & 2 and started book 3 around the same time S3 started. I've thoroughly enjoyed reading while watching and have now passed what they will probably cover during this season. Part of the fun has been contrasting the books with the series. I hope to finish all the available books before S4 starts.
(6) is new to me - what's the basis for that?
This is an interesting post. Varys recently said in the show that Littlefinger would set fire to the world to rule over the ashes (or something to that effect) - he literally is directly responsible for this whole conflict.
This is an interesting post. Varys recently said in the show that Littlefinger would set fire to the world to rule over the ashes (or something to that effect) - he literally is directly responsible for this whole conflict.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
mad sweeney
Footballguy
(6) is new to me - what's the basis for that? This is an interesting post. Varys recently said in the show that Littlefinger would set fire to the world to rule over the ashes (or something to that effect) - he literally is directly responsible for this whole conflict.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
The thought occurred to me as we'll, with the spoilers in the subject line. CC to shadyridr and Crisco.
(6) is new to me - what's the basis for that? This is an interesting post. Varys recently said in the show that Littlefinger would set fire to the world to rule over the ashes (or something to that effect) - he literally is directly responsible for this whole conflict.
Thanks?
shuke
Black Ice Skeptic
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
(6) is new to me - what's the basis for that? This is an interesting post. Varys recently said in the show that Littlefinger would set fire to the world to rule over the ashes (or something to that effect) - he literally is directly responsible for this whole conflict.
Littlefinger is also somewhat responsible for the debts of the Throne -which are huge. The evidence for the Faceless man and Ned's beheading is circumstantial but here is my reasoning. Littlefinger's family was originally from Braavos. When the small council discusses assassinating Dany, Littlefinger has obviously looked into dealing with Faceless men because he knows how much they cost. It is highly unlikely a Faceless man would allow himself to be caught and thrown into the dungeon. Littlefinger is something of a plotter and doesn't particularly like Starks.The only two targets of any value that people would know would be in Yoren's party going to the Wall are Ned and Gendry - Gendry was not killed. Which means Jaqen was likely there for Ned - it also might be how he knew who Arya was. We know that Littlefinger influences the king (he is responsible for the jousting dwarves at Joff's wedding). So let's assume Littlefinger wants Ned dead. Maybe for spite, maybe because he thinks he might not go to the Wall, but more than likely he knows that war will be inevitable if Ned is killed - and it is pretty obvious Littlefinger doesn't want peace. So Littlefinger convinces Joff to kill Ned. It is mentioned that Varys, the Queen, and Pycelle didn't know Joff was going to kill Ned and they all want peace. Slynt and Payne didn't hesitate to carry out the order (and Slynt is loyal to Littlefinger) so one or both might have known beforehand. However, it was also a possibility that someone would stop the execution so a solid backup plan would be to kill Ned on the road North - or at the Wall. Littlefinger doesn't want the job botched or wants it to look a particular way so he hires a Faceless man.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
The iq in that thread is somewhere between larryboy and mop. I don't get it.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
(6) is new to me - what's the basis for that? This is an interesting post. Varys recently said in the show that Littlefinger would set fire to the world to rule over the ashes (or something to that effect) - he literally is directly responsible for this whole conflict.
Littlefinger is also somewhat responsible for the debts of the Throne -which are huge. The evidence for the Faceless man and Ned's beheading is circumstantial but here is my reasoning. Littlefinger's family was originally from Braavos. When the small council discusses assassinating Dany, Littlefinger has obviously looked into dealing with Faceless men because he knows how much they cost. It is highly unlikely a Faceless man would allow himself to be caught and thrown into the dungeon. Littlefinger is something of a plotter and doesn't particularly like Starks.The only two targets of any value that people would know would be in Yoren's party going to the Wall are Ned and Gendry - Gendry was not killed. Which means Jaqen was likely there for Ned - it also might be how he knew who Arya was. We know that Littlefinger influences the king (he is responsible for the jousting dwarves at Joff's wedding). So let's assume Littlefinger wants Ned dead. Maybe for spite, maybe because he thinks he might not go to the Wall, but more than likely he knows that war will be inevitable if Ned is killed - and it is pretty obvious Littlefinger doesn't want peace. So Littlefinger convinces Joff to kill Ned. It is mentioned that Varys, the Queen, and Pycelle didn't know Joff was going to kill Ned and they all want peace. Slynt and Payne didn't hesitate to carry out the order (and Slynt is loyal to Littlefinger) so one or both might have known beforehand. However, it was also a possibility that someone would stop the execution so a solid backup plan would be to kill Ned on the road North - or at the Wall. Littlefinger doesn't want the job botched or wants it to look a particular way so he hires a Faceless man.
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
If Ned is part of that party the dynamic changes - they aren't attacked by Lannisters. Why he stayed in the cage I don't know, maybe he was waiting for a better time to escape, but I think the initial plan was to kill Ned at The Wall. However, it seems highly unlikely that a man thrown into the dungeons for legitimate purposes would be allowed to keep any coins and it isn't like he found the one he gave to Arya.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
My non book reader friend just basically predicted episode 9. I'm glad my friends are smarter than those in the other thread.
Abrantes
Footballguy
As impressive as the quote pyramid is becoming, I'll avoid it.
Littlefinger and Varys are the two characters that I see people building up the most due through inference, assumption, reading between the lines, or whatever you want to call it. Bit too
for me, but I get why people have fun with it. I don't buy point 6 from the spoiler at all, but hey - people will speculate when it takes 5+ years between books.
In the show, Littlefinger is definitely portrayed differently than what I imagined from the books. More James Bond villain-type deliberations with Varys, perpetual smugness, more flaunting of power. The machinations listed above are all calculated chess moves, but not outwardly bold in the same manner as the veiled threats he threw in Cersei's face in season 2, for instance. In the books, he always seemed low-key. Why would he want to draw attention to himself, even knowing that he could probably outsmart the other guy? I'm fine with the show version, but it's certainly a different approach, in my eyes. That's partly by necessity, as they don't have the screen time to have to show Littlefinger pulling the strings, so they just have him outright saying it.
Littlefinger and Varys are the two characters that I see people building up the most due through inference, assumption, reading between the lines, or whatever you want to call it. Bit too
for me, but I get why people have fun with it. I don't buy point 6 from the spoiler at all, but hey - people will speculate when it takes 5+ years between books.In the show, Littlefinger is definitely portrayed differently than what I imagined from the books. More James Bond villain-type deliberations with Varys, perpetual smugness, more flaunting of power. The machinations listed above are all calculated chess moves, but not outwardly bold in the same manner as the veiled threats he threw in Cersei's face in season 2, for instance. In the books, he always seemed low-key. Why would he want to draw attention to himself, even knowing that he could probably outsmart the other guy? I'm fine with the show version, but it's certainly a different approach, in my eyes. That's partly by necessity, as they don't have the screen time to have to show Littlefinger pulling the strings, so they just have him outright saying it.
EYLive
Footballguy
Still clueless.
Warning - spoilers from future HBO seasons potentially
In the 4th book, Brienne, Hyle Hunt, Podrick, and the Septon travel to an island called the Quiet Isle looking for Sansa Stark. On that island there is a huge acolyte digging graves - the throws dirt at the group. He also has a lame leg (the wound that was infected when he fought the Tickler and Polliver in book 3) and there is a large mean warhorse on the island that had bit off one of the acolyte's ears when they tried to geld it. Since the priest/Septon that ran the island had actually talked to Sandor as he was "dying" there is a lot of evidence to point to that the silent gravedigger is Sandor.
In the 5th book, it is pretty clear that the new Kingsguard is a resurrected or healed Gregor Clegane (the Mountain). Qyburn prevented the poison from killing Gregor after his duel with Oberyn Martell.
In the 4th book, Brienne, Hyle Hunt, Podrick, and the Septon travel to an island called the Quiet Isle looking for Sansa Stark. On that island there is a huge acolyte digging graves - the throws dirt at the group. He also has a lame leg (the wound that was infected when he fought the Tickler and Polliver in book 3) and there is a large mean warhorse on the island that had bit off one of the acolyte's ears when they tried to geld it. Since the priest/Septon that ran the island had actually talked to Sandor as he was "dying" there is a lot of evidence to point to that the silent gravedigger is Sandor.
In the 5th book, it is pretty clear that the new Kingsguard is a resurrected or healed Gregor Clegane (the Mountain). Qyburn prevented the poison from killing Gregor after his duel with Oberyn Martell.
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
That fight with the Bloody Mummers happens prior to the Quiet Isle visit but it is around that time in the book.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
I liked last episode, although it was probably my least favorite stand alone this season. I had a bad feeling based on the title The Bear and the Maiden Fair because that scene as the highlight of the episode just didn't seem fitting to me, but I had faith being that GRRM was writing it. They changed the title several times and added the bear scene to his episode. So he didn't have much to work with. I wonder though if anything he wrote for the show made it into another episode.
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
As impressive as the quote pyramid is becoming, I'll avoid it.
Littlefinger and Varys are the two characters that I see people building up the most due through inference, assumption, reading between the lines, or whatever you want to call it. Bit too
In the show, Littlefinger is definitely portrayed differently than what I imagined from the books. More James Bond villain-type deliberations with Varys, perpetual smugness, more flaunting of power. The machinations listed above are all calculated chess moves, but not outwardly bold in the same manner as the veiled threats he threw in Cersei's face in season 2, for instance. In the books, he always seemed low-key. Why would he want to draw attention to himself, even knowing that he could probably outsmart the other guy? I'm fine with the show version, but it's certainly a different approach, in my eyes. That's partly by necessity, as they don't have the screen time to have to show Littlefinger pulling the strings, so they just have him outright saying it.
Why do you that idea? I mean, if someone made the claim after book 1 that Littlefinger was responsible for all the stuff we *know* he is responsible for that person would garner more of a response than what I posted. From the intensity and thoroughness of training that Arya is receiving in the 4th and 5th books does it really seem likely that a full fledged Faceless man would just be hanging out in the dungeon, be allowed to keep his coins, and know who Arya Stark is? How would you explain those three things? Also, from what we know of Littlefinger and his plotting doesn't it seem likely that if he wanted Ned dead that he would have backup plans to do it if the beheading failed?
that idea? I mean, if someone made the claim after book 1 that Littlefinger was responsible for all the stuff we *know* he is responsible for that person would garner more of a response than what I posted. From the intensity and thoroughness of training that Arya is receiving in the 4th and 5th books does it really seem likely that a full fledged Faceless man would just be hanging out in the dungeon, be allowed to keep his coins, and know who Arya Stark is? How would you explain those three things? Also, from what we know of Littlefinger and his plotting doesn't it seem likely that if he wanted Ned dead that he would have backup plans to do it if the beheading failed?
Sabertooth
Footballguy
are we thinking this is the Red Wedding episode. I think its called Rains of Castemere.
(HULK)
(Smash)
Hodor
Footballguy
Last episode Robb and his crew were on their way to the wedding and Blackfish/Robb's wife were with them. In the books those two stay at Riverrun and have roles in the 4th book. If Blackfish is sort of taking on Umber's role I am wondering if they are going to include him in the red wedding or if next episode those two head back. Really hoping they don't go that route with Blackfish. I'd like to see him hold Riverrun in dead Robb's name next season.
SmoovySmoov
The Way of the Samurai
I was pretty positive that the spoiler above was just going to contain the word "Hodor"
Abrantes
Footballguy
I was pretty positive that the spoiler above was just going to contain the word "Hodor"
Same here. 
Hodor
Footballguy
I was pretty positive that the spoiler above was just going to contain the word "Hodor"
Same here.
hodor
parrot
Footballguy
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Abrantes
Footballguy
The tinfoil hat is for the rampant speculation in general. I'm not disputing that Littlefinger is basically Westeros' Moriarty, but I don't feel the need to ascribe even more stuff to him than what's already been confirmed. You admitted yourself that the evidence for those particular theories is circumstantial. It's more interesting than "Tyrion is a secret Targ~!" but the hat fits.As impressive as the quote pyramid is becoming, I'll avoid it.
Littlefinger and Varys are the two characters that I see people building up the most due through inference, assumption, reading between the lines, or whatever you want to call it. Bit too
In the show, Littlefinger is definitely portrayed differently than what I imagined from the books. More James Bond villain-type deliberations with Varys, perpetual smugness, more flaunting of power. The machinations listed above are all calculated chess moves, but not outwardly bold in the same manner as the veiled threats he threw in Cersei's face in season 2, for instance. In the books, he always seemed low-key. Why would he want to draw attention to himself, even knowing that he could probably outsmart the other guy? I'm fine with the show version, but it's certainly a different approach, in my eyes. That's partly by necessity, as they don't have the screen time to have to show Littlefinger pulling the strings, so they just have him outright saying it.Why do you
Even after 5 books, we know precious little about the Faceless Men. Most of this hinges on our different interpretations of their capabilities. I have no idea why he'd be hanging out in the dungeon, but as Leroy brought up, he had to be freed from his cage by Arya, so I wouldn't assume that he's Harry Houdini and could escape at will. Maybe he could, but that's not the way the book portrays it, so if you choose to believe otherwise, it goes counter to the evidence we've been given. Despite that, given that we're dealing with dudes who can change faces at will, I think that using a hidden coin as evidence of anything is specious. The same goes for his knowledge of Arya's identity. The Faceless are taught how to see through people. Even without magical crystal balls, it's not unreasonable to expect Jaqen to have identified Arya by inference.
As for Littlefinger's intentions, there's a sizable jump from "he didn't care much for the Starks" to "he not only plotted to have Ned killed, but had a backup plan in place".
Despite Martin's talent, I find that people grossly overrate his structural prowess. He describes himself as more of a "gardener" than an "architect", and as boring as it may seem, it's far more likely that there isn't an explanation for Jaqen's presence in the Black Cells or in the party headed to the Night's Watch. Frankly, that's fine by me. Not every strand needs to be tied off, much less to the same knot.
As for Littlefinger's intentions, there's a sizable jump from "he didn't care much for the Starks" to "he not only plotted to have Ned killed, but had a backup plan in place".
Despite Martin's talent, I find that people grossly overrate his structural prowess. He describes himself as more of a "gardener" than an "architect", and as boring as it may seem, it's far more likely that there isn't an explanation for Jaqen's presence in the Black Cells or in the party headed to the Night's Watch. Frankly, that's fine by me. Not every strand needs to be tied off, much less to the same knot.
JerseyToughGuys
Tough Guy
ya, things are going to be "slow" again this week.
Story lines based on the preview:
Arya + Hound
Sam and Gilly
Dario
Davos
Joff v. Tyrion
oh, the pissing and moaning that will occur!
Story lines based on the preview:
Arya + Hound
Sam and Gilly
Dario
Davos
Joff v. Tyrion
oh, the pissing and moaning that will occur!
wonder if Sam the Slayer (and maybe Coldhands) will appease the masses. I hope they shoot it well.
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
I could certainly see this with Littlefinger!As impressive as the quote pyramid is becoming, I'll avoid it.
Littlefinger and Varys are the two characters that I see people building up the most due through inference, assumption, reading between the lines, or whatever you want to call it. Bit too
In the show, Littlefinger is definitely portrayed differently than what I imagined from the books. More James Bond villain-type deliberations with Varys, perpetual smugness, more flaunting of power. The machinations listed above are all calculated chess moves, but not outwardly bold in the same manner as the veiled threats he threw in Cersei's face in season 2, for instance. In the books, he always seemed low-key. Why would he want to draw attention to himself, even knowing that he could probably outsmart the other guy? I'm fine with the show version, but it's certainly a different approach, in my eyes. That's partly by necessity, as they don't have the screen time to have to show Littlefinger pulling the strings, so they just have him outright saying it.Why do you
Hodor
Footballguy
Probably also will have Snow and his crew run into Bran and his bunch hiding, IIRC that is when Snow gets away from them
mad sweeney
Footballguy
I thought there was a very quick clip in the preview that led me to believe your spoiler character's title will appear this ep.
JerseyToughGuys
Tough Guy
I thought there was a very quick clip in the preview that led me to believe your spoiler character's title will appear this ep.ya, there is a clip. That list is based on the clips.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
I'm sure the Arya/Hound scene(s) will have some nice dialogue and minor drama. Probably necessary before future events.
Sam/Gilly definite potential
Daario could be awesome as well.
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
I was understating his dislike for the Starks. He was trying to get the Starks and Lannisters to go after one another. We see that from the very outset of the books. He wants war and Ned confessing was a way to prevent war, get back Jaime, have Robb Stark lay down his arms, etc. etc. Littlefinger doesn't want that. Killing Ned guarantees war.
I explained the freeing from the cage. Maybe he didn't know he would be kept in there. Maybe he was waiting for the Wall. *shrug* Very few plans work out perfectly and I find that a Faceless man planted there far more likely than the most notorious assassins in the world just getting picked up and tossed in the cells.
I explained the freeing from the cage. Maybe he didn't know he would be kept in there. Maybe he was waiting for the Wall. *shrug* Very few plans work out perfectly and I find that a Faceless man planted there far more likely than the most notorious assassins in the world just getting picked up and tossed in the cells.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
I could certainly see this with Littlefinger!As impressive as the quote pyramid is becoming, I'll avoid it.
Littlefinger and Varys are the two characters that I see people building up the most due through inference, assumption, reading between the lines, or whatever you want to call it. Bit too
In the show, Littlefinger is definitely portrayed differently than what I imagined from the books. More James Bond villain-type deliberations with Varys, perpetual smugness, more flaunting of power. The machinations listed above are all calculated chess moves, but not outwardly bold in the same manner as the veiled threats he threw in Cersei's face in season 2, for instance. In the books, he always seemed low-key. Why would he want to draw attention to himself, even knowing that he could probably outsmart the other guy? I'm fine with the show version, but it's certainly a different approach, in my eyes. That's partly by necessity, as they don't have the screen time to have to show Littlefinger pulling the strings, so they just have him outright saying it.Why do you
question about littlefinger or even varys for that matter. couldnt someone just kill either one without much of an issue? I mean they have no family no real lands (I know peter has harrenhal (thatsa dump, no army there but bolton men now)) no bannermen.
ScottNorwood
Footballcutie
Danerys being naked/sexing with Daario might help, but probably doesn't happen this week
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