Hernandez convicted of first-degree murder; found deceased in his cell. (7 Viewers)

[DropKick]

Documents: Hernandez told pal he fired fatal shots

ATTLEBORO, Mass. (AP) — A man linked to the murder case against former New England Patriots tight end Aaron Hernandez told police Hernandez admitted firing the fatal shots, and a vehicle wanted in a double killing in Boston a year before had been rented in Hernandez's name, according to documents filed Tuesday in Florida that provide the most damning evidence yet against the star athlete.

The documents say Hernandez associate Carlos Ortiz told Massachusetts investigators that another man, Ernest Wallace, said Hernandez admitted shooting semi-pro football player Odin Lloyd in an industrial park near Hernandez's home in North Attleborough. The documents were filed in court by the Miramar, Fla., police department to justify a search of Wallace's home in that city.

....

But Ortiz told police that the two men shook hands and the problem seemed smoothed over. But soon the car stopped, and everyone but Ortiz got out to urinate, according to Ortiz's account.

The witness also told police he then heard gunshots before Hernandez and Wallace got back into the car without Lloyd and the vehicle sped away.

Uncorroborated accomplice testimony. Of hearsay. Great.

"Yeah, um, I was there officer. But everyone got out of the car except for me, and they went somewhere where I couldn't see them. Then they came back, and one of the guys told me another guy killed a third guy. But it totally wasn't me, because I was the guy there doing absolutely nothing illegal at all and have nothing to do with the crime you're investigating, at all. I'm 100% innocent."

Exactly what the guy who did it and is now framing Hernandez (taking advantage of the fact that the police seem to be hell-bent on bagging the biggest target) would say.

You take issue with the police working hard and effectively? The suggestion that they're railroading Hernandez because of his celebrity is laughable.

 

[Sarnoff]

Documents: Hernandez told pal he fired fatal shots

ATTLEBORO, Mass. (AP) — A man linked to the murder case against former New England Patriots tight end Aaron Hernandez told police Hernandez admitted firing the fatal shots, and a vehicle wanted in a double killing in Boston a year before had been rented in Hernandez's name, according to documents filed Tuesday in Florida that provide the most damning evidence yet against the star athlete.

The documents say Hernandez associate Carlos Ortiz told Massachusetts investigators that another man, Ernest Wallace, said Hernandez admitted shooting semi-pro football player Odin Lloyd in an industrial park near Hernandez's home in North Attleborough. The documents were filed in court by the Miramar, Fla., police department to justify a search of Wallace's home in that city.

Gonna go out on a limb and say thats not good for his case.

It's gonna have no impact at all on his case. It's hearsay, and inadmissible in court. A witness can't testify to something heard third-hand. If he didn't witness AH pulling the trigger, he won't take the stand. He can't testify that someone else told him that it happened.

The only reason this made "news" is that someone wanted this info out in public. A respectable police department or a respectable district attorney wouldn't let this kind of BS see the light of day in the media.

 

[GoBirds]

Documents: Hernandez told pal he fired fatal shots

ATTLEBORO, Mass. (AP) — A man linked to the murder case against former New England Patriots tight end Aaron Hernandez told police Hernandez admitted firing the fatal shots, and a vehicle wanted in a double killing in Boston a year before had been rented in Hernandez's name, according to documents filed Tuesday in Florida that provide the most damning evidence yet against the star athlete.

The documents say Hernandez associate Carlos Ortiz told Massachusetts investigators that another man, Ernest Wallace, said Hernandez admitted shooting semi-pro football player Odin Lloyd in an industrial park near Hernandez's home in North Attleborough. The documents were filed in court by the Miramar, Fla., police department to justify a search of Wallace's home in that city.

Gonna go out on a limb and say thats not good for his case.

It's gonna have no impact at all on his case. It's hearsay, and inadmissible in court. A witness can't testify to something heard third-hand. If he didn't witness AH pulling the trigger, he won't take the stand. He can't testify that someone else told him that it happened.

The only reason this made "news" is that someone wanted this info out in public. A respectable police department or a respectable district attorney wouldn't let this kind of BS see the light of day in the media.

Ha OK.

 

[bengalbuck]

What ever happened to "Innocent Until Proven Guilty"?

Common sense in looking at everything as a whole. You have basically what the media has provided and one side of the story from the cops. So you're not using common sense to form a judgment already since you don't have the whole picture.

On Hernandez, do you really REALLY REALLY think he's not guilty here? I think he's most likely guilty but understand those that protect our constitution of innocent until proven guilty

You think the police are that stupid ? Yeah, many of them are actually.

Glad you are here to "protect our constitution of innocent until proven guilty."

Just curious, what part of the constitution is that in exactly?

 

[kutta]

Sarnoff, you gotta stop. We know you are just being a contrarian, but it's getting kind of silly.

 

[cstu]

Documents: Hernandez told pal he fired fatal shots

ATTLEBORO, Mass. (AP) — A man linked to the murder case against former New England Patriots tight end Aaron Hernandez told police Hernandez admitted firing the fatal shots, and a vehicle wanted in a double killing in Boston a year before had been rented in Hernandez's name, according to documents filed Tuesday in Florida that provide the most damning evidence yet against the star athlete.

The documents say Hernandez associate Carlos Ortiz told Massachusetts investigators that another man, Ernest Wallace, said Hernandez admitted shooting semi-pro football player Odin Lloyd in an industrial park near Hernandez's home in North Attleborough. The documents were filed in court by the Miramar, Fla., police department to justify a search of Wallace's home in that city.

Gonna go out on a limb and say thats not good for his case.

It's gonna have no impact at all on his case. It's hearsay, and inadmissible in court. A witness can't testify to something heard third-hand. If he didn't witness AH pulling the trigger, he won't take the stand. He can't testify that someone else told him that it happened.

The only reason this made "news" is that someone wanted this info out in public. A respectable police department or a respectable district attorney wouldn't let this kind of BS see the light of day in the media.

He can definitely testify about everything except for the hearsay. That alone is very damning for AH.

 

[bengalbuck]

Documents: Hernandez told pal he fired fatal shots

ATTLEBORO, Mass. (AP) — A man linked to the murder case against former New England Patriots tight end Aaron Hernandez told police Hernandez admitted firing the fatal shots, and a vehicle wanted in a double killing in Boston a year before had been rented in Hernandez's name, according to documents filed Tuesday in Florida that provide the most damning evidence yet against the star athlete.

The documents say Hernandez associate Carlos Ortiz told Massachusetts investigators that another man, Ernest Wallace, said Hernandez admitted shooting semi-pro football player Odin Lloyd in an industrial park near Hernandez's home in North Attleborough. The documents were filed in court by the Miramar, Fla., police department to justify a search of Wallace's home in that city.

Gonna go out on a limb and say thats not good for his case.

It's gonna have no impact at all on his case. It's hearsay, and inadmissible in court. A witness can't testify to something heard third-hand. If he didn't witness AH pulling the trigger, he won't take the stand. He can't testify that someone else told him that it happened.

The only reason this made "news" is that someone wanted this info out in public. A respectable police department or a respectable district attorney wouldn't let this kind of BS see the light of day in the media.

I'm guessing from this post and your previous one about the constitution that you aren't an attorney?

 

[Faust]

Aaron Hernandez documents detailing home search are released

 

[Penguin]

Documents: Hernandez told pal he fired fatal shots

ATTLEBORO, Mass. (AP) — A man linked to the murder case against former New England Patriots tight end Aaron Hernandez told police Hernandez admitted firing the fatal shots, and a vehicle wanted in a double killing in Boston a year before had been rented in Hernandez's name, according to documents filed Tuesday in Florida that provide the most damning evidence yet against the star athlete.

The documents say Hernandez associate Carlos Ortiz told Massachusetts investigators that another man, Ernest Wallace, said Hernandez admitted shooting semi-pro football player Odin Lloyd in an industrial park near Hernandez's home in North Attleborough. The documents were filed in court by the Miramar, Fla., police department to justify a search of Wallace's home in that city.

Gonna go out on a limb and say thats not good for his case.

It's gonna have no impact at all on his case. It's hearsay, and inadmissible in court. A witness can't testify to something heard third-hand. If he didn't witness AH pulling the trigger, he won't take the stand. He can't testify that someone else told him that it happened.

The only reason this made "news" is that someone wanted this info out in public. A respectable police department or a respectable district attorney wouldn't let this kind of BS see the light of day in the media.

You're still hanging on to Hernandez in your Dynasty right?

 

[Faust]

@McCannSportsLaw

According to Carlos Ortiz: Ernest Wallace told him Aaron Hernandez confided in Wallace he shot Odin Lloyd. Admission admissible? Probably.

@Nick_Underhill

AP story says Hernandez, Lloyd and Wallace got out to urine, at which point Ortiz heard shots

@Nick_Underhill

Ortiz told cops that he was in car when Lloyd was killed. Hernandez and Wallace were not.

@Nick_Underhill

Here are the things that stood out to me while reading through Hernandez court docs. blog.masslive.com/patriots/2013/…

 

[Faust]

Released evidence damning for Aaron Hernandez, but questions remain

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

It's gonna have no impact at all on his case. It's hearsay, and inadmissible in court. A witness can't testify to something heard third-hand. If he didn't witness AH pulling the trigger, he won't take the stand. He can't testify that someone else told him that it happened.

Hernandez's statement is non-hearsay, so Wallace can testify about what he heard Hernandez say. It's unclear whether Ortiz would be able to testify about what he heard Wallace say.

The only reason this made "news" is that someone wanted this info out in public. A respectable police department or a respectable district attorney wouldn't let this kind of BS see the light of day in the media.

How were the police department or the district attorney supposed to keep this stuff from seeing the light of day? The documents are public, having been released by the court.

 

[renesauz]

Can't believe there are still some thinking AH might be innocent.

 

[DropKick]

Can't believe there are still some thinking AH might be innocent.

And a little scared they could breed.

 

[MAC_32]

Can't believe there are still some thinking AH might be innocent.

i don't think that's it. It's that no one has put the gun in his hand yet and so many celebs have gotten off before.

 

[gump]

The details at the park are still odd...Lloyd wasn't suspicious that they pulled over to urinate a mile from AHs house? Did he not know where he was...even though he was from Boston?

 

[The Kerminator]

The details at the park are still odd...Lloyd wasn't suspicious that they pulled over to urinate a mile from AHs house? Did he not know where he was...even though he was from Boston?

How do you know he wasn't suspicious?

 

[gump]

The details at the park are still odd...Lloyd wasn't suspicious that they pulled over to urinate a mile from AHs house? Did he not know where he was...even though he was from Boston?

How do you know he wasn't suspicious?

I don't....but the witness seems to give the impression it became a pretty relaxed situation when they got out. Maybe I'm reading too much into it.

 

[Anarchy99]

I heard them discussing the whole hearsay stuff on the radio this morning, and it sounded like the prosecution would not be introducing it if that was all they had and/or the way it got listed on the documentation was described wrong. Bottom line, the legal expert said the prosecution would not serve that up to the defense in a trial, as they would get hammered. It also sounded like the prosecution's case would not be impacted by that unless they were the ones that introduced it, so the expert felt they would just it out.

 

[Mr Non Sequitur]

Hernandez told police he rented a vehicle for Odin and that he had no idea where Odin was(We know that to be a huge lie at this point). He also never asked police who died when they said they were investigating a death.

In conjunction with that statement police have video of Hernandez that night and eye witness testimony that he was driving the vehicle with Odin in it. Add in the fact they found the clothes that match up with the videos...even if we don't get much deeper into the case, this alone pretty much implicates Hernandez and is one of the reasons I don't see any way he can walk.

Juries do not need suspects to admit they did it or have video showing the whole crime in order to convict. We have lots of people in prison, some of whom probably should not have ben found guilty. There is so much evidence against Hernandez that it's shocking. I have never seen so much evidence point to someone being guilty prior to trial.

It's mind boggling other than fishing in here how someone could defend Hernandez at this point.

 

[Anarchy99]

Hernandez told police he rented a vehicle for Odin and that he had no idea where Odin was(We know that to be a huge lie at this point). He also never asked police who died when they said they were investigating a death.

In conjunction with that statement police have video of Hernandez that night and eye witness testimony that he was driving the vehicle with Odin in it. Add in the fact they found the clothes that match up with the videos...even if we don't get much deeper into the case, this alone pretty much implicates Hernandez and is one of the reasons I don't see any way he can walk.

Juries do not need suspects to admit they did it or have video showing the whole crime in order to convict. We have lots of people in prison, some of whom probably should not have ben found guilty. There is so much evidence against Hernandez that it's shocking. I have never seen so much evidence point to someone being guilty prior to trial.

It's mind boggling other than fishing in here how someone could defend Hernandez at this point.

While I agree with everything you said, what remains as an unknown is whether the prosecution can prove it, if the defense can pull a rabbit out of a hat, or if a jury can be systematically brain dead. There have been plenty of cases that should have been slam dunks that the defendant ended up walking. Being guilty and being found guilty are two different things (unfortunately).

 

[NJ]

While I think its obvious that Hernandez is guilty of something here, I'm not sure why people keep bringing up the fact that he didn't ask who died when the police told him they were investigating a death. I mean, the first thing they do is notify the family right? If we pretend for one second that Hernandez had nothing to do it with the murder, its certainly plausible that he would have heard from one of the family members that the guy was dead before the police showed up at his door asking questions so he would have already known what they were there for either way IMHO. Unless you think they found the body and went straight to AH's house before doing anything else...

 

[QuizGuy66]

Aaron Hernandez documents detailing home search are released

Hmm wonder why someone would keep a scale in their safe....

-QG

 

[unckeyherb]

Hernandez told police he rented a vehicle for Odin and that he had no idea where Odin was(We know that to be a huge lie at this point). He also never asked police who died when they said they were investigating a death.

In conjunction with that statement police have video of Hernandez that night and eye witness testimony that he was driving the vehicle with Odin in it. Add in the fact they found the clothes that match up with the videos...even if we don't get much deeper into the case, this alone pretty much implicates Hernandez and is one of the reasons I don't see any way he can walk.

Juries do not need suspects to admit they did it or have video showing the whole crime in order to convict. We have lots of people in prison, some of whom probably should not have ben found guilty. There is so much evidence against Hernandez that it's shocking. I have never seen so much evidence point to someone being guilty prior to trial.

It's mind boggling other than fishing in here how someone could defend Hernandez at this point.

While I agree with the assessment that he is guilty based on what the prosecution has laid out, any host of things could happen. What we've all heard so far is only the prosecution's side of the case. They can present whatever 'evidence' they want-this is not a trial yet. The defense isn't idling by-they are working diligently to disprove and disallow as much of the 'evidence' that was presented at the arraignment as possible.

What if the defense is able to convince the jury that the alleged video of Hernandez is far too fuzzy to determine identification? They'll have expert testimony from somewhere stating that its inconclusive that the images are even of Hernandez. What if the text messages were not obtained legally and are not allowed in as evidence? What if the pending investigations against him are not allowed to be considered by the jury and as such, an obvious motive for murder (to shut up Lloyd before he talks about a previous crime) is not allowed in either. Add in no murder weapon and all the sudden reasonable doubt isn't too hard to accomplish.

I'm not suggesting that the above will happen-but crazier stuff has gone down before. The point is, very guilty people walk away from court as free men all the time. Hernandez has Millions of dollars to throw at this problem and from what I understand, a pretty heavyweight attorney. He'll have plenty of tricks up his sleeves.

 

[moleculo]

Aaron Hernandez documents detailing home search are released

Hmm wonder why someone would keep a scale in their safe....

-QG

so someone doesn't steal it?

 

[moleculo]

Hernandez told police he rented a vehicle for Odin and that he had no idea where Odin was(We know that to be a huge lie at this point). He also never asked police who died when they said they were investigating a death.

In conjunction with that statement police have video of Hernandez that night and eye witness testimony that he was driving the vehicle with Odin in it. Add in the fact they found the clothes that match up with the videos...even if we don't get much deeper into the case, this alone pretty much implicates Hernandez and is one of the reasons I don't see any way he can walk.

Juries do not need suspects to admit they did it or have video showing the whole crime in order to convict. We have lots of people in prison, some of whom probably should not have ben found guilty. There is so much evidence against Hernandez that it's shocking. I have never seen so much evidence point to someone being guilty prior to trial.

It's mind boggling other than fishing in here how someone could defend Hernandez at this point.

While I agree with the assessment that he is guilty based on what the prosecution has laid out, any host of things could happen. What we've all heard so far is only the prosecution's side of the case. They can present whatever 'evidence' they want-this is not a trial yet. The defense isn't idling by-they are working diligently to disprove and disallow as much of the 'evidence' that was presented at the arraignment as possible.

What if the defense is able to convince the jury that the alleged video of Hernandez is far too fuzzy to determine identification? They'll have expert testimony from somewhere stating that its inconclusive that the images are even of Hernandez. What if the text messages were not obtained legally and are not allowed in as evidence? What if the pending investigations against him are not allowed to be considered by the jury and as such, an obvious motive for murder (to shut up Lloyd before he talks about a previous crime) is not allowed in either. Add in no murder weapon and all the sudden reasonable doubt isn't too hard to accomplish.

I'm not suggesting that the above will happen-but crazier stuff has gone down before. The point is, very guilty people walk away from court as free men all the time. Hernandez has Millions of dollars to throw at this problem and from what I understand, a pretty heavyweight attorney. He'll have plenty of tricks up his sleeves.

he's gonna go to jail on the gun charges, regardless of murder 1. That's a slam dunk. No way to weasel around that, he will do jail time. Illegal weapons were found while officers exercised a legitimate search warrant.

As far as the death of Odin Lloyd - his best case, IMO, is that he gets it reduced to a conspiracy or accessory or manslaughter or something like that. Best case. Most likely is murder 1, IMO, with potential for other murder/manslaughter charges to follow.

AH will not walk out of court a free man, I guarantee you that.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

It's mind boggling other than fishing in here how someone could defend Hernandez at this point.

I don't see anyone defending Hernandez. I have seen people point out that we are only hearing one side of the story (the police and prosecuters side). While I think most of us here believe Hernandez committed the murder there is history in this country of inept prosecution and shady cops planting evidence. See the OJ Simpson case, for example.

 

[massraider]

It's mind boggling other than fishing in here how someone could defend Hernandez at this point.

I don't see anyone defending Hernandez. I have seen people point out that we are only hearing one side of the story (the police and prosecuters side). While I think most of us here believe Hernandez committed the murder there is history in this country of inept prosecution and shady cops planting evidence. See the OJ Simpson case, for example.

People keep making this point, over and over and over, but I am not sure this point really applies to Hernandez.

There is a massive amount of evidence, which seems to increase every day. One of the guys in the car has flipped, and is talking. At this point, a plea deal seems a lot more likely than some prosecution flub.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

It's mind boggling other than fishing in here how someone could defend Hernandez at this point.

I don't see anyone defending Hernandez. I have seen people point out that we are only hearing one side of the story (the police and prosecuters side). While I think most of us here believe Hernandez committed the murder there is history in this country of inept prosecution and shady cops planting evidence. See the OJ Simpson case, for example.

Oh come on.

 

[kutta]

People seem to be arguing different things:

1. He did it and will be found guilty.

2. He did it and will be found not guilty.

3. He didn't do it and will be found not guilty.

4. He didn't do it and will be found guilty.

I don't think anyone is arguing #4, so let's ignore that one.

I think it's 1, but I completely understand someone arguing 2 because of what might happen in a courtroom.

Is anyone really arguing 3?

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

It's mind boggling other than fishing in here how someone could defend Hernandez at this point.

I don't see anyone defending Hernandez. I have seen people point out that we are only hearing one side of the story (the police and prosecuters side). While I think most of us here believe Hernandez committed the murder there is history in this country of inept prosecution and shady cops planting evidence. See the OJ Simpson case, for example.

Oh come on.

Are you saying the cops didn't plant any evidence in the Simpson case? Too long ago for me to remember any details but I recall one of them (Furman maybe?) was caught tampering with the evidence. And the prosecution was totally inept and owned by Johnnie Cochran.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

It's mind boggling other than fishing in here how someone could defend Hernandez at this point.

I don't see anyone defending Hernandez. I have seen people point out that we are only hearing one side of the story (the police and prosecuters side). While I think most of us here believe Hernandez committed the murder there is history in this country of inept prosecution and shady cops planting evidence. See the OJ Simpson case, for example.

People keep making this point, over and over and over, but I am not sure this point really applies to Hernandez.

There is a massive amount of evidence, which seems to increase every day. One of the guys in the car has flipped, and is talking. At this point, a plea deal seems a lot more likely than some prosecution flub.

I said most of us here believe he is guilty.

But can you really say you've heard the other side of the story? One of the guys in the car flipped? Of course he did either because that thug all of a sudden decided to be an honest citizen or because that thug is interested in saving his own ### as best he can?

The text messages that were released and stuff from Hernandez's own security system are enough to make most people think he's guilty. Pardon me if I don't believe one word his two gang member drug addicts are saying though.

 

[unckeyherb]

There is a massive amount of evidence, which seems to increase every day. One of the guys in the car has flipped, and is talking. At this point, a plea deal seems a lot more likely than some prosecution flub.

As I said earlier, there is no guarantee that half of that evidence makes it into the trial. A prosecutor at an arraignment can site all sorts of things that may or may not be admissible as evidence during the actual trial. No one has seen the video (to my knowledge) allegedly showing Hernandez walking around with a gun in his hand minutes after the murder. This is obviously damning evidence, but what if its not nearly as clear cut as the prosecutor is saying? What if its not clear at all and actually raises doubts as to who it is on screen? What if some tricky lawyering gets the entire video thrown out before it ever goes to trial?

Again, I believe he is guilty and I believe that he will be found guilty. Just saying, his lawyers aren't playing brick-breaker at their office. They are breaking their backs to break down and pick apart every modicum of evidence they can.

ETA:

The text messages that were released and stuff from Hernandez's own security system are enough to make most people think he's guilty. Pardon me if I don't believe one word his two gang member drug addicts are saying though.

This is my point. The main pieces of evidence that convict him in the public's eye are the existence of something on a security camera and a couple of text messages from the victim. Tangentially are the new investigations into other shootings that may have been motive for Hernandez to kill a witness (Lloyd).

So, what if the judge orders no mention of the ongoing investigations? There goes motive.

What if the camera footage is actually inconclusive? There is still no murder weapon.

 

[massraider]

It's mind boggling other than fishing in here how someone could defend Hernandez at this point.

I don't see anyone defending Hernandez. I have seen people point out that we are only hearing one side of the story (the police and prosecuters side). While I think most of us here believe Hernandez committed the murder there is history in this country of inept prosecution and shady cops planting evidence. See the OJ Simpson case, for example.

People keep making this point, over and over and over, but I am not sure this point really applies to Hernandez.

There is a massive amount of evidence, which seems to increase every day. One of the guys in the car has flipped, and is talking. At this point, a plea deal seems a lot more likely than some prosecution flub.

I said most of us here believe he is guilty.

But can you really say you've heard the other side of the story? One of the guys in the car flipped? Of course he did either because that thug all of a sudden decided to be an honest citizen or because that thug is interested in saving his own ### as best he can?

That's how it happens. A lot. I actually posted this umpteen pages ago, that one of the guys not named Hernandez, that didn't pull the trigger, was going to flip. His options were to be found guilty of murder along with the other two, or cut a deal. Is this surprising, or even remotely suspicious?

 

[stbugs]

It's mind boggling other than fishing in here how someone could defend Hernandez at this point.

I don't see anyone defending Hernandez. I have seen people point out that we are only hearing one side of the story (the police and prosecuters side). While I think most of us here believe Hernandez committed the murder there is history in this country of inept prosecution and shady cops planting evidence. See the OJ Simpson case, for example.

People keep making this point, over and over and over, but I am not sure this point really applies to Hernandez.

There is a massive amount of evidence, which seems to increase every day. One of the guys in the car has flipped, and is talking. At this point, a plea deal seems a lot more likely than some prosecution flub.

I said most of us here believe he is guilty.

But can you really say you've heard the other side of the story? One of the guys in the car flipped? Of course he did either because that thug all of a sudden decided to be an honest citizen or because that thug is interested in saving his own ### as best he can?

The text messages that were released and stuff from Hernandez's own security system are enough to make most people think he's guilty. Pardon me if I don't believe one word his two gang member drug addicts are saying though.

OK, I think most of you are fishing on this one. Can you actually say that there is any evidence that doesn't place Hernandez at the scene? Can you actually say that there is any evidence that doesn't show that the other two guys were requested from out of state by Hernandez? How do you refute the texts by Hernandez telling Lloyd he was going to pick him up before he was murdered? How do you explain away the security footage of Hernandez coming into his house with a gun at exactly the time he should have gotten home leaving the place where Lloyd was killed?

I hate to say it, but there is a mountain of evidence in this case and to be honest, we have the other side of the story. Pardon me if I do believe the word of two gang member drug addicts that were summoned to the scene of a murder by Hernandez and didn't hesitate to get his back.

Do people seriously equate this case to OJ or Casey Anthony? If you do, you may want to go back and review those cases and sift through the real evidence because AH has given the DAs so much more evidence. I believe OJ and Casey were the ones that committed those crimes, but there was a lot more wiggle room in those cases to expose some reasonable doubt. AH literally wrapped his case in a bow and handed it over to police.

 

[massraider]

There is a massive amount of evidence, which seems to increase every day. One of the guys in the car has flipped, and is talking. At this point, a plea deal seems a lot more likely than some prosecution flub.

As I said earlier, there is no guarantee that half of that evidence makes it into the trial. A prosecutor at an arraignment can site all sorts of things that may or may not be admissible as evidence during the actual trial. No one has seen the video (to my knowledge) allegedly showing Hernandez walking around with a gun in his hand minutes after the murder. This is obviously damning evidence, but what if its not nearly as clear cut as the prosecutor is saying? What if its not clear at all and actually raises doubts as to who it is on screen? What if some tricky lawyering gets the entire video thrown out before it ever goes to trial?

Again, I believe he is guilty and I believe that he will be found guilty. Just saying, his lawyers aren't playing brick-breaker at their office. They are breaking their backs to break down and pick apart every modicum of evidence they can.

ETA:

The text messages that were released and stuff from Hernandez's own security system are enough to make most people think he's guilty. Pardon me if I don't believe one word his two gang member drug addicts are saying though.

This is my point. The main pieces of evidence that convict him in the public's eye are the existence of something on a security camera and a couple of text messages from the victim. Tangentially are the new investigations into other shootings that may have been motive for Hernandez to kill a witness (Lloyd).

So, what if the judge orders no mention of the ongoing investigations? There goes motive.

What if the camera footage is actually inconclusive? There is still no murder weapon.

I have seen nothing that any evidence is questionable, or won't be allowed. Is it possible? Sure.

By the way, text messages are NOT the main pieces of evidence that incriminate AH. One I can think of offhand is, gee, the shell casing he returned in his rental car that matches the gun that killed Odin.

 

[Sarnoff]

People seem to be arguing different things:

1. He did it and will be found guilty.

2. He did it and will be found not guilty.

3. He didn't do it and will be found not guilty.

4. He didn't do it and will be found guilty.

I don't think anyone is arguing #4, so let's ignore that one.

I think it's 1, but I completely understand someone arguing 2 because of what might happen in a courtroom.

Is anyone really arguing 3?

What's "it"? Actually pulling the trigger, or just being in the area when it happened? I've seen no evidence at all that AH has committed murder. He may have had some thugs in his car in a situation that got out of hand before he realized how far it was going to go. AH may be able to argue that some low-life friends from his past got carried away trying to live the Thug Life and now are trying to tell police that he was the one who did it. He may be an accessory, he may be a co-conspirator, but no one's shown proof that AH 1) knew the final result of that car ride beforehand, and 2) actually fired the murder weapon.

 

[Anarchy99]

People seem to be arguing different things:

1. He did it and will be found guilty.

2. He did it and will be found not guilty.

3. He didn't do it and will be found not guilty.

4. He didn't do it and will be found guilty.

I don't think anyone is arguing #4, so let's ignore that one.

I think it's 1, but I completely understand someone arguing 2 because of what might happen in a courtroom.

Is anyone really arguing 3?

What's "it"? Actually pulling the trigger, or just being in the area when it happened? I've seen no evidence at all that AH has committed murder. He may have had some thugs in his car in a situation that got out of hand before he realized how far it was going to go. AH may be able to argue that some low-life friends from his past got carried away trying to live the Thug Life and now are trying to tell police that he was the one who did it. He may be an accessory, he may be a co-conspirator, but no one's shown proof that AH 1) knew the final result of that car ride beforehand, and 2) actually fired the murder weapon.

The problems with this argument are multiple. Recapping what the legal folks have been saying here on radio and tv . . .

1) If several people are together and a homicide is committed, they ALL can be charged with murder.

2) For someone to NOT be charged with murder, that party must come forward and report the incident to the police and assist law enforcement officials ASAP.

3) Given that AH did not report it immediately, that leaves him not only open to murder charges but also to accessory and obstruction charges. He won't get much play now that he was an innocent bystander as he did not report what happened and had many opportunities to do so.

4) AH also fails cooperating with the police component, so he can't claim he was open, forthright, and honest and alerted the authorities in a timely manner.

5) Since ALL parties can be charged with murder, that opens up each individual to reach a deal with prosecutors to identify the true killer and the circumstances of the murder. If they get the 3rd participant to roll over on AH, IMO his goose could be cooked.

Given all that, AH may or may not be found guilty of murder in the first degree, but it seems like he may be found guilty of a lesser charge (murder in a lesser degree, manslaughter, aggravated assault, etc.) which could still carry a life sentence (or extended time being incarcerated).

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

It's mind boggling other than fishing in here how someone could defend Hernandez at this point.

I don't see anyone defending Hernandez. I have seen people point out that we are only hearing one side of the story (the police and prosecuters side). While I think most of us here believe Hernandez committed the murder there is history in this country of inept prosecution and shady cops planting evidence. See the OJ Simpson case, for example.

People keep making this point, over and over and over, but I am not sure this point really applies to Hernandez.

There is a massive amount of evidence, which seems to increase every day. One of the guys in the car has flipped, and is talking. At this point, a plea deal seems a lot more likely than some prosecution flub.

I said most of us here believe he is guilty.

But can you really say you've heard the other side of the story? One of the guys in the car flipped? Of course he did either because that thug all of a sudden decided to be an honest citizen or because that thug is interested in saving his own ### as best he can?

The text messages that were released and stuff from Hernandez's own security system are enough to make most people think he's guilty. Pardon me if I don't believe one word his two gang member drug addicts are saying though.

OK, I think most of you are fishing on this one. Can you actually say that there is any evidence that doesn't place Hernandez at the scene? Can you actually say that there is any evidence that doesn't show that the other two guys were requested from out of state by Hernandez? How do you refute the texts by Hernandez telling Lloyd he was going to pick him up before he was murdered? How do you explain away the security footage of Hernandez coming into his house with a gun at exactly the time he should have gotten home leaving the place where Lloyd was killed?

I hate to say it, but there is a mountain of evidence in this case and to be honest, we have the other side of the story. Pardon me if I do believe the word of two gang member drug addicts that were summoned to the scene of a murder by Hernandez and didn't hesitate to get his back.

Do people seriously equate this case to OJ or Casey Anthony? If you do, you may want to go back and review those cases and sift through the real evidence because AH has given the DAs so much more evidence. I believe OJ and Casey were the ones that committed those crimes, but there was a lot more wiggle room in those cases to expose some reasonable doubt. AH literally wrapped his case in a bow and handed it over to police.

I think you're so busy thinking about fishing that you didn't even read one word of my post.

 

[Bob Magaw]

It's mind boggling other than fishing in here how someone could defend Hernandez at this point.

I don't see anyone defending Hernandez. I have seen people point out that we are only hearing one side of the story (the police and prosecuters side). While I think most of us here believe Hernandez committed the murder there is history in this country of inept prosecution and shady cops planting evidence. See the OJ Simpson case, for example.

no doubt about inept prosecution... see outrage by bugliosi, former LA prosecuting attorney who also wrote helter skelter about manson trial... he was of the opinion that changing the venue from santa monica (where it should have been), maybe partly because the commute would be easier for attorneys, was a horrific decision. also, i forget the rationale at time, but the prosecution incomprehensibly elected to not enter into evidence seemingly suggestive material such as possible suicide note, and things like "escape kit" (cash, disguise, passport)...

the defense obviously alleged evidence planting, and did their best to cast doubt on as many links in the chain of evidence as they could... one thing is, if someone from law enforcement were caught doing this in a murder trial, i think they could get the death penalty (or maybe life in CA?)... there must be documented cases of this happening, but it is serious... at some point in trial, clark mentioned that a conspiracy was absurd, as with all the blood and other cloth, hair, trace, etc evidence in so many places, everybody in the LAPD, including lab techs would have had to have been in on it (maybe rent out the convention center for conspiracy meetings and discussion groups?)... but that wouldn't seem necessarily so... if furman or van atter got there first, they could have hypothetically planted blood evidence... there was never a conclusive or definitive explanation for why one glove was at scene and one at OJs house... planting was not the only explanation for how it could have got there... that is why the outing of furman as racist tainting other aspects of investigation was one of the thrusts of the defense... other irregularities hammered at by defense was a vial of blood that wasn't immediately turned into custody, and in some cases problematic evidence collection/storage, contamination potential, faulty testing, etc... also none of which necessarily implies something as sinister as tampering, but maybe more likely run of the mill human error. which why you sort of have to take the whole mosaic into account...

i found one jury comment troubling... she said that the part of prosecution strategy talking about possible linkage between prior physical violence and subsequent murder (defense cited percentage that high average of cases where a spouse is beaten and they aren't later murdered... prosecution flipped it around and said, yeah, but in cases where a spouse is murdered that had earlier been beaten by spouse, a much different and higher percentage would emerge than the one cited in the earlier defense's framing of how to interpret the "stats")... she actually said she didn't even consider it, because it wasn't meaningful or important in her mind... it just sounded like not only blatant willful disobedience of jury instructions, but seeming obliviousness that she had done so (paraphrasing, but i don't think she said she considered it but didn't think it should be weighted very heavily, but that she had literally refused to consider it)...

to me the most damning evidence about OJ cited in bugliosi book is that an important part of the case the prosecution could never prove was that that OJ owned and wore a pair of bruno magli shoes (identified by FBI shoe print expert witness)... because of the fact that they were expensive, an unusually large size, not sold in very many places, etc., they were pretty rare... he denied owning them, and they couldn't prove otherwise... AFTER the acquittal, photos emerged (possibly football commentary gigs? he was an actor and public figure, so it could have been elsewhere) with him wearing the key evidence that could have further linked him to the murder scene, which he alleged under oath he never had (no murder double jeopardy, but too bad they couldn't later charge perjury)...

BTW, i thought i heard in past photo or video evidence is not allowed in court, as it can be tampered with? but in some cities in LA, they use traffic intersection cameras to issue tickets, so that can't be entirely true... maybe because it is their property they can be reasonably assured that tampering unlikely... also, big difference between traffic ticket and murder trial.

more to the point of hernandez looming trial (wow, this thread is going to peter out for the next year interim, than spike again at that time), is the footage they captured from the disable internal security video at his house admissable, where he is pacing with a gun in his hand, muttering about not being able to trust certain people, shortly before picking up deceased?

and back to OJ, and any possible connection between that and this (could another high profile athlete walk with possibility of expensive, competent defense team?)... to make an analogy between the two cases... if some of the particulars that seem to be factual (as opposed to inferred) in this case, were mirrored in the OJ case, it would be like if nicole simpson's body was found a few blocks from OJs mansion, with the WHITE BRONCO PARKED RIGHT BY THE BODY. think about it.

 

[Bob Magaw]

People seem to be arguing different things:

1. He did it and will be found guilty.

2. He did it and will be found not guilty.

3. He didn't do it and will be found not guilty.

4. He didn't do it and will be found guilty.

I don't think anyone is arguing #4, so let's ignore that one.

I think it's 1, but I completely understand someone arguing 2 because of what might happen in a courtroom.

Is anyone really arguing 3?

What's "it"? Actually pulling the trigger, or just being in the area when it happened? I've seen no evidence at all that AH has committed murder. He may have had some thugs in his car in a situation that got out of hand before he realized how far it was going to go. AH may be able to argue that some low-life friends from his past got carried away trying to live the Thug Life and now are trying to tell police that he was the one who did it. He may be an accessory, he may be a co-conspirator, but no one's shown proof that AH 1) knew the final result of that car ride beforehand, and 2) actually fired the murder weapon.

hypothetically, if you were to assign a LOOSE percentage of the chance that he DID or DIDN'T have an instrumental role (orchestrator), what would they be?

 

[Anarchy99]

I get the OJ references (in that OJ walked when many, if not most, people thought he did it). A lot has changed in almost 20 years. So to re-engineer the OJ case with AH elements and play the what if game.

- Suppose police had texts between Nicole and her family and friends that OJ was coming to pick her and Ron up.

- Let's say that the white Bronco was tracked by GPS to and from Nicole's house and where the bodies were found, with multiple sources of video showing OJ as the driver.

- Throw in video of OJ outside McDonald's or home CCTV less than a mile from the crime scene where he is seen holding a knife at 3:33 AM when the murders were known to occur at 3:30 AM.

- Add in OJ being seen buying gum on video after picking up Nicole and say there was the same bubble gum with his DNA on it at the scene or in his house.

- Also factor in if OJ had another car in his garage that was tied to another double homicide.

Overlaying that type of evidence to the OJ case, would that make the prosecution's case stronger, weaker or the same?

 

[Bob Magaw]

regardless of how evil some may think OJ is, he was a bit more organized (well, aside from the whole bronco chase thing, and the inconsistent, mutating nap/putting on the lawn alibi).

the first thing i thought when i heard about AH possible involvement, and the way it was carried out, with the mountain of evidence levelled directly at him, was he seems like what FBI profiler-types called a disorganized sociopath.

i've seen three stooges movies that were better and more cleverly, intricately plotted.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

It's mind boggling other than fishing in here how someone could defend Hernandez at this point.

I don't see anyone defending Hernandez. I have seen people point out that we are only hearing one side of the story (the police and prosecuters side). While I think most of us here believe Hernandez committed the murder there is history in this country of inept prosecution and shady cops planting evidence. See the OJ Simpson case, for example.

Oh come on.

Are you saying the cops didn't plant any evidence in the Simpson case? Too long ago for me to remember any details but I recall one of them (Furman maybe?) was caught tampering with the evidence. And the prosecution was totally inept and owned by Johnnie Cochran.

No, they did not (from what I recall). They bungled the handling of the evidence, but they did not "plant" anything. That last part about the inept prosecution was true and the judge was pretty inept too.

 

[Amused to Death]

regardless of how evil some may think OJ is, he was a bit more organized (well, aside from the whole bronco chase thing, and the inconsistent, mutating nap/putting on the lawn alibi).

the first thing i thought when i heard about AH possible involvement, and the way it was carried out, with the mountain of evidence levelled directly at him, was he seems like what FBI profiler-types called a disorganized sociopath.

i've seen three stooges movies that were better and more cleverly, intricately plotted.

Bob - have you read up on the theory/evidence against OJ's son Jason? Not to hijack this into an OJ thread....

 

[Bob Magaw]

yes, amused to death,

i think aaron posted something about it in FFA...

there were a lot of "coinicidences", so many that i remember immediately after thinking it sounded pretty compelling, and wondering how such a seemingly well presented angle had been completely "missed" or ignored by prosecution and journalists/media... later when i googled for more info, i read what i found an even more compelling article demolishing several pieces (though not sure now which?) of the puzzle that just couldn't be made to fit in key places... plus, it sounded like the proponent of the unorthodox theory had written a book about it, and was on a publicity tour at the time? the counter article may have alluded to the author misrepresenting some of people he quoted, which made it seem less credible to me.

 

[Sarnoff]

People seem to be arguing different things:

1. He did it and will be found guilty.

2. He did it and will be found not guilty.

3. He didn't do it and will be found not guilty.

4. He didn't do it and will be found guilty.

I don't think anyone is arguing #4, so let's ignore that one.

I think it's 1, but I completely understand someone arguing 2 because of what might happen in a courtroom.

Is anyone really arguing 3?

What's "it"? Actually pulling the trigger, or just being in the area when it happened? I've seen no evidence at all that AH has committed murder. He may have had some thugs in his car in a situation that got out of hand before he realized how far it was going to go. AH may be able to argue that some low-life friends from his past got carried away trying to live the Thug Life and now are trying to tell police that he was the one who did it. He may be an accessory, he may be a co-conspirator, but no one's shown proof that AH 1) knew the final result of that car ride beforehand, and 2) actually fired the murder weapon.

The problems with this argument are multiple. Recapping what the legal folks have been saying here on radio and tv . . .

1) If several people are together and a homicide is committed, they ALL can be charged with murder.

2) For someone to NOT be charged with murder, that party must come forward and report the incident to the police and assist law enforcement officials ASAP.

3) Given that AH did not report it immediately, that leaves him not only open to murder charges but also to accessory and obstruction charges. He won't get much play now that he was an innocent bystander as he did not report what happened and had many opportunities to do so.

4) AH also fails cooperating with the police component, so he can't claim he was open, forthright, and honest and alerted the authorities in a timely manner.

5) Since ALL parties can be charged with murder, that opens up each individual to reach a deal with prosecutors to identify the true killer and the circumstances of the murder. If they get the 3rd participant to roll over on AH, IMO his goose could be cooked.

Given all that, AH may or may not be found guilty of murder in the first degree, but it seems like he may be found guilty of a lesser charge (murder in a lesser degree, manslaughter, aggravated assault, etc.) which could still carry a life sentence (or extended time being incarcerated).

I'm not talking about the legal definition of Felony Murder or anything like that, I'm just talking about who actually killed the guy.

 

[karmarooster]

Hearsay is an out of cour statement offered to prove the truth of the matter asserted. So Hernandez saying to the stooge "I killed Lloyd" is clearly hearsay, but there are tons of exceptions and exemptions.

I think you guys are getting too far ahead of yourselves to say that Hernandez could get off because the DA won't be able to get the evidence into the record. There is clearly tons of evidence, such that the case is so strong, Hernandez would be a fool not to plea out to anything ~10 years.

 

[I Am the Stig]

A lot of people in here are too quick to close the door on this one. What ever happened to "Innocent Until Proven Guilty"? All these crimes are alleged, and all the evidence is circumstantial at best. Oh, it's the same flavor of Bubbilicious, he must be guilty! Oh, uncorroborated accomplice testimony, it must be 100% accurate!

There's more evidence of George Zimmerman's guilt in the Trayvon Martin case than what we've seen here so far, but people can't wait to call him guilty. Let's wait for some real facts to come out, instead of hearsay and conjecture, and see what the real story is before we start nailing up the coffin.

The two cases are not even close. Nobody is questioning that Zimmerman pulled the trigger. That case is about intent. Was it self defense or was a case of vigilantism?

The circumstantial evidence against Hernandez is strong, but there are also others involved. But the video evidence alone places Hernandez within proximity to the crime scene shortly before and after the crime. It looks bad walking into your house minutes after your car was scene leaving the crime scene.

What would be more amazing is the incredible effort it would take to frame Hernandez. Most things in life are answered by the more logical and obvious solution. If it looks like a horse, sounds like a horse, and walks like a horse, more likely than not it is in fact a horse and not the Zebra you wish it was.

 

[karmarooster]

People seem to be arguing different things:

1. He did it and will be found guilty.

2. He did it and will be found not guilty.

3. He didn't do it and will be found not guilty.

4. He didn't do it and will be found guilty.

I don't think anyone is arguing #4, so let's ignore that one.

I think it's 1, but I completely understand someone arguing 2 because of what might happen in a courtroom.

Is anyone really arguing 3?

What's "it"? Actually pulling the trigger, or just being in the area when it happened? I've seen no evidence at all that AH has committed murder. He may have had some thugs in his car in a situation that got out of hand before he realized how far it was going to go. AH may be able to argue that some low-life friends from his past got carried away trying to live the Thug Life and now are trying to tell police that he was the one who did it. He may be an accessory, he may be a co-conspirator, but no one's shown proof that AH 1) knew the final result of that car ride beforehand, and 2) actually fired the murder weapon.

The problems with this argument are multiple. Recapping what the legal folks have been saying here on radio and tv . . .

1) If several people are together and a homicide is committed, they ALL can be charged with murder.

2) For someone to NOT be charged with murder, that party must come forward and report the incident to the police and assist law enforcement officials ASAP.

3) Given that AH did not report it immediately, that leaves him not only open to murder charges but also to accessory and obstruction charges. He won't get much play now that he was an innocent bystander as he did not report what happened and had many opportunities to do so.

4) AH also fails cooperating with the police component, so he can't claim he was open, forthright, and honest and alerted the authorities in a timely manner.

5) Since ALL parties can be charged with murder, that opens up each individual to reach a deal with prosecutors to identify the true killer and the circumstances of the murder. If they get the 3rd participant to roll over on AH, IMO his goose could be cooked.

Given all that, AH may or may not be found guilty of murder in the first degree, but it seems like he may be found guilty of a lesser charge (murder in a lesser degree, manslaughter, aggravated assault, etc.) which could still carry a life sentence (or extended time being incarcerated).

I'm not talking about the legal definition of Felony Murder or anything like that, I'm just talking about who actually killed the guy.

Felony murder is an otherwise unintentional killing that occurs during the course of a felony. So, you rob a bank and the gun accidentally goes off, killing the teller, you are guilty of murder and not manslaughter as it would be for most other unintentional killings. The idea is to discourage the commission of felonies by making the perp strictly liable for any deaths that occur.

The idea that Hern could be found guilty or murder despite not having pulled the trigger himself (who knows, at this point it seems to me likely that he did) could rest on any number of grounds - aiding and abetting, accomplice liability, and conspiracy liability.