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Unbelievable that this thread is still going when obviously only huge Steeler homers think Ward has a chance at getting into the Hall. I'm sorry you guys choked out of the SB (no I'm not) but there are better ways to spend your off-season. Seriously.Since you asked, I looked at yardage. Since we know the catches per game are rather equal (slight lead to Ward), and we can all state Carter gets more TDs (except in playoffs, Ward barely edges Carter).Carter 16 seasons... 9 seasons top 25. 0 in top 5. Ward in 13 seasons... 8 seasons in top 25. 1 in top 5. Not bad considering the vast differences in passing philosophies between the two teams (about 12% difference).
Steeler fans, take comfort. You can set up your very own special wing for the Hall of Not Bad now, with Hines Ward as your first entrant. Maybe his plaque should read: "He was top-25 a lot of times."
:whoosh: And make no mistake about it, Smith was as good of a blocker as Ward is. I remember Mike Anderson busting off an 80-yard TD against Seattle (IIRC) because Smith completely destroyed someone with a block, and took someone else out in the process (he blocked his guy backwards into another defender, taking them both out of the play). But on a team with Elway, Terrell Davis and Shannon Sharpe, getting a lot of talk about a WR's blocking skills was hard to come by (although it was talked about quite a bit), as opposed to Ward, who it was easier to talk about since the Steelers never really had any flashy offensive stars to go on and on about in the early 00s.
Classic example of Steeler fan cherry picking:Big Steel thrill includes top 25 finishes and top 5, but for some reason, omits top 10 (even though that is how data is often categorizedFrom profootball referenceTop 10 (who has ever done top 25 finishes) YardsCarter 5/ 0 top 51993 NFL 1071 (7) 1994 NFL 1256 (7) 1995 NFL 1371 (7) 1996 NFL 1163 (10) 1999 NFL 1241 (8) Ward 3/ 1 top 52002 NFL 1329 (4) 2003 NFL 1163 (9) 2009 NFL 1167 (9)
Exactly. And, even his cherry-picking the numbers isn't even that compelling.I'm pretty conservative when it comes to the HOF. A lot of guys are in that don't belong, imo...not because they weren't great, but because they didn't rise to the level I see worthy of HOF status. Carter is one of those borderline candidates that I really go back and forth on. He's a classic tweener.But, if Steeler fans are struggling to even make an equivocal comparison to justify their guy, Ward, in relation to already a tweener HOF candidate in Carter (and failing each time they post), that says something.Ward was never an elite amongst his peers. There's no place for him in the already-crowded wing in Canton.
So finally we all agree that it was Pittsburgh giving the game away more than the Packers earning it, just remember that...
So Carter only has 2 more? As I said, that's pretty close. Especially given the teams they played on.BTW, I wasn't picking at stats, Colbat was, he requested them. This isn't about the Hall of Stats.
Get his name right before you go off spouting about players. It will help in your credibility or lack thereof in this case.
wow dude that's horrible. You are ragging on him because of spelling? Guess your vag is sandy from.this thread and the superbowl loss.Get his name right before you go off spouting about players. It will help in your credibility or lack thereof in this case.
Cherry picking is selecting stats that you want and omitting the rest, or try to minimize their differences. That is what you do. So, you excluded top five finishes where Ward is worse, and included the one area where he was better. Then since he is worse in that same category if you include top 10 finishes, you skipped that category. Instead, you went to top 25 finishes, which is hardly an indicator of dominance.Similarly, in an effort to minimize the difference between Ward and Carter's TDs, you portray the difference like this:So Carter only has 2 more? As I said, that's pretty close. Especially given the teams they played on.BTW, I wasn't picking at stats, Colbat was, he requested them. This isn't about the Hall of Stats.
as opposed toCarter 130 Ward 83The point I was making is, you never miss a stat that you portray Ward as superior. Similarly, you will go to great efforts to try to minimize clear areas where Carter is superior. When you go to such lengths to cloud historical data, you make your arguments weaker.
To bump this from a year ago- he had one of his worst statistical seasons in a decade: 750 and 5 over 16 games. I see this as close to his ceiling next year. I see him as a very good player who definitely is not a first ballot hall of famer and has a coin flip chance of making it in- aided primarily because he was a very good player on a very good team. However, it is likely that if he doesn't get in quickly, he will have an issue, as his final numbers and perceived dominance will likely not look favorable in comparison to players like Wayne, Ftzgerald, and Andre Johnson and are similar to players like Boldin and Roddy WHite.
Never.
Reed was projected to be one of the top, if not the top, WR one year if not more than one year. (see projections above)I also stated above I think both Bruce and Holt get in so I don't get the second Q.
They were very close in 1996 which led to differences of opinion for the 97 FF season's projections.CC had like 1100 and 10 TDs while Jake had 1300 and 7 TDs. Prob 8th and 9th FF WR that year.
It's funny. It never even occurred to me--never noticed--that he spelled his name that way until now Thanks for correcting the record here, Steelfan7. But, I doubt my lack of attention to this detail undermines the position that, relative to his peers, Carter was a more noteworthy wide receiver in his era compared to Ward in his.wow dude that's horrible. You are ragging on him because of spelling? Guess your vag is sandy from.this thread and the superbowl loss.Get his name right before you go off spouting about players. It will help in your credibility or lack thereof in this case.
It's funny. It never even occurred to me--never noticed--that he spelled his name that way until now Thanks for correcting the record here, Steelfan7. But, I doubt my lack of attention to this detail undermines the position that, relative to his peers, Carter was a more noteworthy wide receiver in his era compared to Ward in his.wow dude that's horrible. You are ragging on him because of spelling? Guess your vag is sandy from.this thread and the superbowl loss.
But you really never knew this
I know, right? I'm 39, so it's not like I can play the "stupid kid" card on this, either. In the 16 years of watching him play, and the years since his retirement, my brain never once registered it as anything but "Chris."What the #### kind of parents does he have to leave out the H in his name? Sheesh.It's funny. It never even occurred to me--never noticed--that he spelled his name that way until now Thanks for correcting the record here, Steelfan7. But, I doubt my lack of attention to this detail undermines the position that, relative to his peers, Carter was a more noteworthy wide receiver in his era compared to Ward in his.wow dude that's horrible. You are ragging on him because of spelling? Guess your vag is sandy from.this thread and the superbowl loss.
It makes him unique. Isn't that the goal for parents? to make their kid think they're special...........I know, right? I'm 39, so it's not like I can play the "stupid kid" card on this, either. In the 16 years of watching him play, and the years since his retirement, my brain never once registered it as anything but "Chris."What the #### kind of parents does he have to leave out the H in his name? Sheesh.It's funny. It never even occurred to me--never noticed--that he spelled his name that way until now Thanks for correcting the record here, Steelfan7. But, I doubt my lack of attention to this detail undermines the position that, relative to his peers, Carter was a more noteworthy wide receiver in his era compared to Ward in his.wow dude that's horrible. You are ragging on him because of spelling? Guess your vag is sandy from.this thread and the superbowl loss.Get his name right before you go off spouting about players. It will help in your credibility or lack thereof in this case.
But you really never knew this
Reed was the 10th WR selected in the 1991 draft. He didn't do much for 3-4 years and then had 4 solid seasons in a row until Randy Moss came to town.That draft class ended up having 10 WR that had 5,000 or more career receiving yads:Keenan McCardell 11373 Herman Moore 9174 Jeff Graham 8172 Ed McCaffrey 7422 Shawn Jefferson 7023 Jake Reed 6999 Michael Jackson 5393 Rocket Ismail 5295 Mike Pritchard 5187 Yancey Thigpen 5081 To put things in perspective, IIRC, the only other draft class that featured 10 wide receivers with 5,000+ career reciving yards was the 1996 (with such notables as T.O., Marvin Harrison, Muhshy Muhammad, Eric Moulds, Keyshawn, Amani Toomer, Terry Glenn, Joe Horn, Eddie Kennison, and Bobby Engram).
Just because some fantasy "expert" projects Reed to have the same or better numbers doesn't mean that he is or was better than Carter. He didn't finish the season with better numbers, did he?One of your arguements against Carter is the fact that for a while he wasn't the best WR on his team, so that gives me the impression that you don't think 2 WR's from the same team should be in the HOF. (BTW, there already are WR teammates in the HOF)
At this point you've jumped on one word (projections) and snipped the rest of my post to form your own opinion of what my opinion is.Twice now I've written how I think both holt and Bruce should get in, yet here you go again saying how you don't think that I think two will make it. As far as the two versus one (quality-top) WR, I clearly stated that I would give a little bit of credit to the one's that were the only top WR on their team. Please see original post.
http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...&p=12910557Is this the original post you are referring to?And I want to clear up another question I have. Do you think Cris Carter won't get in the HOF? or shouldn't get in the HOF? or both?
cobalt_27 said:
Given how he epitomizes the Steelers of this era, I fully expect that he would/will be in whatever Steelers ring of honor or HOF that the team has.Looking beyond the stats is fine, but he is not distinguished enough in any other area to gloss over the fact that his production is pedestrian compared to his contemporaries who are (or will be) HOF candidates.1st ballot HOF? No way.Later on in life will he make the HOF? Very doubtful.
Like I said earlier, your points were even more true of Art Monk, and he's in now. Monk got in before Andre Reed because he had a bigger fan club; Ward will have a big enough fan club to get him in eventually.
Ward will need the support of a huge lobby, like Monk, to get in. No doubt. I am more skeptical that he gets that. Isn't he routinely recognized as the dirtiest WR in the league? That, at least, can't help his already marginal cause from his body of work.
In the Pittsburgh area, maybe, and maybe in South Korea, but nowhere else.
This wouldn't be quite as bad as Patriots fans trying to force Troy Brown into the Hall of Fame, but it doesn't seem all that far off, either.
Please, at least try to be serious.Hines Ward:
This wouldn't be quite as bad as Patriots fans trying to force Troy Brown into the Hall of Fame, but it doesn't seem all that far off, either.
954 catches
11,702 yds
83 TDs
Troy Brown:
557 catches
6,366 yds
31 TDs
(and by the way, Ward has even outrushed Brown by more than 2X)
Hines Ward: #21 all time in receiving yards
Troy Brown: #143
Hines Ward: #19 in receiving TDs
Troy Brown: not in the top-250
Let's not pretend these two should even be in the same conversation.
Way to completely miss the point.
Agree on this point.And could the Steelers fans be more biased than other teams fans because practically everyone on the 70's Dynastygot into the hall of fame? Therefore, they expect a lot of players from this era who played on the Steelers to get in also?Just a thought.
Uh, you're the one acting like a ####### hereAdebisi said:In the Pittsburgh area, maybe, and maybe in South Korea, but nowhere else.
This wouldn't be quite as bad as Patriots fans trying to force Troy Brown into the Hall of Fame, but it doesn't seem all that far off, either.
954 catches
11,702 yds
83 TDs
Troy Brown:
557 catches
6,366 yds
31 TDs
(and by the way, Ward has even outrushed Brown by more than 2X)
Hines Ward: #21 all time in receiving yards
Troy Brown: #143
Hines Ward: #19 in receiving TDs
Troy Brown: not in the top-250
Let's not pretend these two should even be in the same conversation.
Best 5 seasons? Seems like an odd way to measure a career.How about career performance in the postseason?Ward: 17 games, 88-1181-10 (5-100 yard games, 2 SB wins & 1 MVP)Mason: 16 games, 49-601-2 (0-100 yard games, 0 SB wins)
He's not trying to measure a career. He's showing:
Deion Branch has 4-100 yard games, 2 SB wins, and 1 MVP (he's played in 5 fewer post season games). So should we put Branch in the HOF?
He's really not *close* to Mason or McCardell.....to put it differently, "closer" is a different concept than "close"
Ha! Branch is only 34 receptions, 400 yards and 7 TD behind Ward in postseason numbers.
