Hines Ward HOF? (1 Viewer)

[JimOtto#2]

His lifetime stats....

818 recetions,

10k rec yards,

72 rec tds.

He could crack the top 10 in Receptions.

 

[Ghost Rider]

No.

 

[Addai's Adidas]

Oh yes. First Ballot. His stats don't tell the whole story.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Did he play for a Steelers team that won a Super Bowl? There's your answer.

 

[Zaphod]

Certainly, he is one of the most complete WRs of his time. 2 time SB winner and 1 time SB MVP/

 

[David Yudkin]

5 page thread

4 page thread

Att his point, his career stats are similar to Mason, Fryar, Rod Smith, Keyshawn, and Ellard. Are those guys getting in any time soon?

There are several active guys that he will have a tough time catching up to reception wise. The longer he plays the better his chances will be.

 

[Jewell]

Thank you for bringing up this topic. I've been pushing for this for a bit now, and everyone seems to think I'm insane.

Ward's numbers alone don't tell the full story, but those numbers are far greater than fellow Steeler HOF receiver, Lynn Swann. Hines' detractors will argue that he won his two Super Bowls while playing for a run first team. That's true. But that's, in part, due to the fact that Hines is one of the (if not THE) best blocking receivers ever. That has to be taken into consideration for HOF voting.

That plus his tenacity, leadership, and two Championship rings make him an HOFer in my mind. Great player.

 

[David Yudkin]

Thank you for bringing up this topic. I've been pushing for this for a bit now, and everyone seems to think I'm insane.Ward's numbers alone don't tell the full story, but those numbers are far greater than fellow Steeler HOF receiver, Lynn Swann. Hines' detractors will argue that he won his two Super Bowls while playing for a run first team. That's true. But that's, in part, due to the fact that Hines is one of the (if not THE) best blocking receivers ever. That has to be taken into consideration for HOF voting.That plus his tenacity, leadership, and two Championship rings make him an HOFer in my mind. Great player.

As spelled out in those other thread I mentioned, there are a glut of great WRs from this era, and up until now the HOF has not inducted many WRs. Ward currently ranks 19th in career receptions (17th for WR). But 14 of those 17 WR were active at some point when Ward played. Where would Ward rank HOF wise compared to the guys ahead of him:Jerry RiceMarvin HarrisonCris CarterTim Brown Isaac Bruce Terrell Owens Andre ReedKeenan McCardellTorry HoltRandy Moss Jimmy Smith Irving Fryar Rod Smith Muhsin Muhammad I would think many people will say Rice, Harrison, Carter, Brown, Bruce, Owens, and Moss would get in before Ward (with Holt and Reed getting consideration). A case could be made for most of those players.That being said, will the HOF really induct that many WR from roughly the same era? They haven't before.

 

[Sea Bass]

NO

 

[fantasysharkctb]

F No

 

[Chaka]

No

 

[David Yudkin]

Chase has Ward ranked 29th most valuable WR of all time

 

[Jewell]

Thank you for bringing up this topic. I've been pushing for this for a bit now, and everyone seems to think I'm insane.Ward's numbers alone don't tell the full story, but those numbers are far greater than fellow Steeler HOF receiver, Lynn Swann. Hines' detractors will argue that he won his two Super Bowls while playing for a run first team. That's true. But that's, in part, due to the fact that Hines is one of the (if not THE) best blocking receivers ever. That has to be taken into consideration for HOF voting.That plus his tenacity, leadership, and two Championship rings make him an HOFer in my mind. Great player.

As spelled out in those other thread I mentioned, there are a glut of great WRs from this era, and up until now the HOF has not inducted many WRs. Ward currently ranks 19th in career receptions (17th for WR). But 14 of those 17 WR were active at some point when Ward played. Where would Ward rank HOF wise compared to the guys ahead of him:Jerry RiceMarvin HarrisonCris CarterTim Brown Isaac Bruce Terrell Owens Andre ReedKeenan McCardellTorry HoltRandy Moss Jimmy Smith Irving Fryar Rod Smith Muhsin Muhammad I would think many people will say Rice, Harrison, Carter, Brown, Bruce, Owens, and Moss would get in before Ward (with Holt and Reed getting consideration). A case could be made for most of those players.That being said, will the HOF really induct that many WR from roughly the same era? They haven't before.

No, they haven't before. Ward, though, gets the bump for three reasons (and I'm aware that at least two of these may sound ridiculous): (1) He's been a marquee player on two championship teams. Hall voters put extra weight on championships.(2) He's been a lifelong Pittsburgh Steeler. This may sound ridiculous, but prominent players on prominent teams always get the benefit of the douct.(3) Hines' perma-smile. This may sound even more ridiculous, but Hines is like the receiver version of Madden's wet dream of Favre -- he just looks like he's having fun out there. Voters remember stuff like that rather than stoic players like Art Monk.

 

[Chaka]

Chase has Ward ranked 29th most valuable WR of all time

It's settled then. Let's put him in the Hall of Most Valuable.

 

[SSOG]

Thank you for bringing up this topic. I've been pushing for this for a bit now, and everyone seems to think I'm insane.Ward's numbers alone don't tell the full story, but those numbers are far greater than fellow Steeler HOF receiver, Lynn Swann. Hines' detractors will argue that he won his two Super Bowls while playing for a run first team. That's true. But that's, in part, due to the fact that Hines is one of the (if not THE) best blocking receivers ever. That has to be taken into consideration for HOF voting.That plus his tenacity, leadership, and two Championship rings make him an HOFer in my mind. Great player.

Rod Smith has more catches for more yards and more touchdowns than Ward, and he averaged over a full yard more per reception. Rod Smith was also a team leader who played with tenacity (he's the guy who made the tackles 106 yards down the field on the longest NON-SCORING play in NFL history). Smith was also a huge leader, and was the best blocking WR in the league, too. Their best years were essentially identical (113/1343/11 and 112/1329/12), but I'd argue Smith's peak was better/higher/more consistent. They both sport two SB Championships. Smith also holds the distinction of being the best undrafted WR in NFL history (unless you count Don Hutson, who joined the NFL before the existence of a draft). The two receivers are essentially identical, to be honest. Rod Smith is not a Hall of Fame receiver... and neither is Hines Ward.In fact, you could make several other really good comparisons to Ward. Jimmy Smith, for instance, has better numbers and a much better peak, and was likewise a "gritty" "team leader" with lots of "heart and determination". At the end of the day, Hines Ward has never made a single All Pro team, which means educated observers were never of the opinion that he was one of the two best WRs in the entire NFL. His candidacy is comparable to Rod Smith, Jimmy Smith, Derrick Mason, Keenan McCardell, Keyshawn Johnson, and Muhsin Muhammad (just listing contemporaries in the 800 catch, 10,000 yard club), and miles behind the candidacy of Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Marvin Harrison, Torry Holt, and Isaac Bruce. By the time he's been retired for 5 years, he will have been joined in the 800/10,000 club by Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald, Steve Smith, and Chad Ochocinco, just to name some guys who will certainly have stronger resumes than Ward by the time he's up for consideration. When at least 10 of your peers have a stronger resume than you do, and half a dozen more have a nearly identical resume to yours, then you're not a Hall of Famer. Especially when you play a position like receiver where voters have historically been so strict (witness: Art Monk, Michael Irving, and Cris Carter all having to wait).

 

[David Yudkin]

Chase has Ward ranked 29th most valuable WR of all time

It's settled then. Let's put him in the Hall of Most Valuable.

Did you even both to read the info in the link?

 

[David Yudkin]

Thank you for bringing up this topic. I've been pushing for this for a bit now, and everyone seems to think I'm insane.Ward's numbers alone don't tell the full story, but those numbers are far greater than fellow Steeler HOF receiver, Lynn Swann. Hines' detractors will argue that he won his two Super Bowls while playing for a run first team. That's true. But that's, in part, due to the fact that Hines is one of the (if not THE) best blocking receivers ever. That has to be taken into consideration for HOF voting.That plus his tenacity, leadership, and two Championship rings make him an HOFer in my mind. Great player.

Rod Smith has more catches for more yards and more touchdowns than Ward, and he averaged over a full yard more per reception. Rod Smith was also a team leader who played with tenacity (he's the guy who made the tackles 106 yards down the field on the longest NON-SCORING play in NFL history). Smith was also a huge leader, and was the best blocking WR in the league, too. Their best years were essentially identical (113/1343/11 and 112/1329/12), but I'd argue Smith's peak was better/higher/more consistent. They both sport two SB Championships. Smith also holds the distinction of being the best undrafted WR in NFL history (unless you count Don Hutson, who joined the NFL before the existence of a draft). The two receivers are essentially identical, to be honest. Rod Smith is not a Hall of Fame receiver... and neither is Hines Ward.In fact, you could make several other really good comparisons to Ward. Jimmy Smith, for instance, has better numbers and a much better peak, and was likewise a "gritty" "team leader" with lots of "heart and determination". At the end of the day, Hines Ward has never made a single All Pro team, which means educated observers were never of the opinion that he was one of the two best WRs in the entire NFL. His candidacy is comparable to Rod Smith, Jimmy Smith, Derrick Mason, Keenan McCardell, Keyshawn Johnson, and Muhsin Muhammad (just listing contemporaries in the 800 catch, 10,000 yard club), and miles behind the candidacy of Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Marvin Harrison, Torry Holt, and Isaac Bruce. By the time he's been retired for 5 years, he will have been joined in the 800/10,000 club by Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald, Steve Smith, and Chad Ochocinco, just to name some guys who will certainly have stronger resumes than Ward by the time he's up for consideration. When at least 10 of your peers have a stronger resume than you do, and half a dozen more have a nearly identical resume to yours, then you're not a Hall of Famer. Especially when you play a position like receiver where voters have historically been so strict (witness: Art Monk, Michael Irving, and Cris Carter all having to wait).

The problem when people talk about WRs is everyone points to Lynn Swann and says PLAYER X is more deserving and had a better career. If anyone can beat the lowest common denominator, then everyone better than that should get in. Swann was #85 on Chase's greatest WR list BTW.

 

[SSOG]

The problem when people talk about WRs is everyone points to Lynn Swann and says PLAYER X is more deserving and had a better career. If anyone can beat the lowest common denominator, then everyone better than that should get in. Swann was #85 on Chase's greatest WR list BTW.

I'm a little confused why you quoted my post there. Edit: I'm actually more of a Lynn Swann fan than most. Swann's aggregate numbers are wrecked by the fact that he couldn't stay healthy, but when he *WAS* healthy, Swann was legitimately one of the best WRs of his era. He was sort of a poor man's Terrell Davis- great start to his career, amazing playoff success, derailed by injuries. I don't know if I'd call him a HoFer, but I have less of a problem with him being there than most people do.

 

[Jewell]

Thank you for bringing up this topic. I've been pushing for this for a bit now, and everyone seems to think I'm insane.

Ward's numbers alone don't tell the full story, but those numbers are far greater than fellow Steeler HOF receiver, Lynn Swann. Hines' detractors will argue that he won his two Super Bowls while playing for a run first team. That's true. But that's, in part, due to the fact that Hines is one of the (if not THE) best blocking receivers ever. That has to be taken into consideration for HOF voting.

That plus his tenacity, leadership, and two Championship rings make him an HOFer in my mind. Great player.

Rod Smith has more catches for more yards and more touchdowns than Ward, and he averaged over a full yard more per reception. Rod Smith was also a team leader who played with tenacity (he's the guy who made the tackles 106 yards down the field on the longest NON-SCORING play in NFL history). Smith was also a huge leader, and was the best blocking WR in the league, too. Their best years were essentially identical (113/1343/11 and 112/1329/12), but I'd argue Smith's peak was better/higher/more consistent. They both sport two SB Championships. Smith also holds the distinction of being the best undrafted WR in NFL history (unless you count Don Hutson, who joined the NFL before the existence of a draft). The two receivers are essentially identical, to be honest. Rod Smith is not a Hall of Fame receiver... and neither is Hines Ward.In fact, you could make several other really good comparisons to Ward. Jimmy Smith...

Bizarre. I love both of those receivers, too. Vastly underrated. Hard to argue that Hines is better than Rod. Very similar in my eyes: run first team, two championships, comparable numbers.Jimmy Smith won't get ANY love by HOF voters... and deservedly so.

 

[knowledge dropper]

No, but maybe he can visit during Cheapshot Punk Weekend?

 

[Ministry of Pain]

There is no doubt hines Ward is a HoF WR, his stats are about as good or better than Michael Irvin, and like Irvin he has 2 SB rings, ok Irvin has 3 but whatever. He does so much more than catch the ball, he embodies what an NFL player should strive to be. I love his game even though I hate the Steelers. Writers across the country love this guy, and I believe it might take a couple ballots but I am sure he will make it in. Between his blocking and also being a vocal member of his team, he really sets the pace for the Steelers on offense. Guy is an animal and I would choose him on a short list of WR to have on my team.

Anyone just typing no isn't really thinking in my opinion.

 

[David Yudkin]

The problem when people talk about WRs is everyone points to Lynn Swann and says PLAYER X is more deserving and had a better career. If anyone can beat the lowest common denominator, then everyone better than that should get in. Swann was #85 on Chase's greatest WR list BTW.

I'm a little confused why you quoted my post there.

I was agreeing with you and simply pointing out that seemingly every WR that gets mentioned in HOF threads should get in because they did better than Swann numbers wise. You listed off a plethora of players to illustrate the glut of prolific receivers. That's why I attached my comments to yours, as I would have said something very similar to what you did.

 

[SSOG]

The problem when people talk about WRs is everyone points to Lynn Swann and says PLAYER X is more deserving and had a better career. If anyone can beat the lowest common denominator, then everyone better than that should get in. Swann was #85 on Chase's greatest WR list BTW.

I'm a little confused why you quoted my post there.

I was agreeing with you and simply pointing out that seemingly every WR that gets mentioned in HOF threads should get in because they did better than Swann numbers wise. You listed off a plethora of players to illustrate the glut of prolific receivers. That's why I attached my comments to yours, as I would have said something very similar to what you did.

I get it. I was confused because I thought you were responding to my post when you were just building off of my post.

 

[Jewell]

Thank you for bringing up this topic. I've been pushing for this for a bit now, and everyone seems to think I'm insane.Ward's numbers alone don't tell the full story, but those numbers are far greater than fellow Steeler HOF receiver, Lynn Swann. Hines' detractors will argue that he won his two Super Bowls while playing for a run first team. That's true. But that's, in part, due to the fact that Hines is one of the (if not THE) best blocking receivers ever. That has to be taken into consideration for HOF voting.That plus his tenacity, leadership, and two Championship rings make him an HOFer in my mind. Great player.

Rod Smith has more catches for more yards and more touchdowns than Ward, and he averaged over a full yard more per reception. Rod Smith was also a team leader who played with tenacity (he's the guy who made the tackles 106 yards down the field on the longest NON-SCORING play in NFL history). Smith was also a huge leader, and was the best blocking WR in the league, too. Their best years were essentially identical (113/1343/11 and 112/1329/12), but I'd argue Smith's peak was better/higher/more consistent. They both sport two SB Championships. Smith also holds the distinction of being the best undrafted WR in NFL history (unless you count Don Hutson, who joined the NFL before the existence of a draft). The two receivers are essentially identical, to be honest. Rod Smith is not a Hall of Fame receiver... and neither is Hines Ward.In fact, you could make several other really good comparisons to Ward. Jimmy Smith, for instance, has better numbers and a much better peak, and was likewise a "gritty" "team leader" with lots of "heart and determination". At the end of the day, Hines Ward has never made a single All Pro team, which means educated observers were never of the opinion that he was one of the two best WRs in the entire NFL. His candidacy is comparable to Rod Smith, Jimmy Smith, Derrick Mason, Keenan McCardell, Keyshawn Johnson, and Muhsin Muhammad (just listing contemporaries in the 800 catch, 10,000 yard club), and miles behind the candidacy of Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Marvin Harrison, Torry Holt, and Isaac Bruce. By the time he's been retired for 5 years, he will have been joined in the 800/10,000 club by Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald, Steve Smith, and Chad Ochocinco, just to name some guys who will certainly have stronger resumes than Ward by the time he's up for consideration. When at least 10 of your peers have a stronger resume than you do, and half a dozen more have a nearly identical resume to yours, then you're not a Hall of Famer. Especially when you play a position like receiver where voters have historically been so strict (witness: Art Monk, Michael Irving, and Cris Carter all having to wait).

The problem when people talk about WRs is everyone points to Lynn Swann and says PLAYER X is more deserving and had a better career. If anyone can beat the lowest common denominator, then everyone better than that should get in. Swann was #85 on Chase's greatest WR list BTW.

I agree with you regarding Swann. Vastly overrated. I'm not bringing Swann up not as the lowest common denominator, but because he's from the same team as Ward. Subconsciously I think voters consider, "Is he the best receiver in his team's history?" If he is, and that team is as prominent team as the Steelers, that's an extra bump in Ward's favor. And we're all in agreement that Hines is the best Steelers' receiver ever, right?

 

[David Yudkin]

There is no doubt hines Ward is a HoF WR, his stats are about as good or better than Michael Irvin, and like Irvin he has 2 SB rings, ok Irvin has 3 but whatever. He does so much more than catch the ball, he embodies what an NFL player should strive to be. I love his game even though I hate the Steelers. Writers across the country love this guy, and I believe it might take a couple ballots but I am sure he will make it in. Between his blocking and also being a vocal member of his team, he really sets the pace for the Steelers on offense. Guy is an animal and I would choose him on a short list of WR to have on my team. Anyone just typing no isn't really thinking in my opinion.

MOP -Take the list I mentioned several posts ago and rank the WR in terms of who you think is most deserving to get in the HOF. Historically, only a handful of players from in and around the same era will get in. And those are just the players AHEAD of him statistically speaking. There are guys behind him (as SSOG mentioned) that could go on to be more productive than Ward.I'm not saying that Ward isn't deserving, but you can't put a bus full of people into a sedan. Only so many people can fit.

 

[SSOG]

Bizarre. I love both of those receivers, too. Vastly underrated. Hard to argue that Hines is better than Rod. Very similar in my eyes: run first team, two championships, comparable numbers.Jimmy Smith won't get ANY love by HOF voters... and deservedly so.

Much as it pains me to admit it, Jimmy Smith was a better receiver than Rod Smith. The fact that he played for an expansion team (and therefore had no championships) shouldn't be held against him. In fact, he's a large part of the reason why Jacksonville was arguably the most successful expansion team of all time.

 

[SSOG]

I agree with you regarding Swann. Vastly overrated. I'm not bringing Swann up not as the lowest common denominator, but because he's from the same team as Ward. Subconsciously I think voters consider, "Is he the best receiver in his team's history?" If he is, and that team is as prominent team as the Steelers, that's an extra bump in Ward's favor. And we're all in agreement that Hines is the best Steelers' receiver ever, right?

There's a difference between "better than Swann" and "the best receiver in Pittsburgh history", and that difference's name is John Stallworth.

 

[Jewell]

Bizarre. I love both of those receivers, too. Vastly underrated. Hard to argue that Hines is better than Rod. Very similar in my eyes: run first team, two championships, comparable numbers.Jimmy Smith won't get ANY love by HOF voters... and deservedly so.

Much as it pains me to admit it, Jimmy Smith was a better receiver than Rod Smith. The fact that he played for an expansion team (and therefore had no championships) shouldn't be held against him. In fact, he's a large part of the reason why Jacksonville was arguably the most successful expansion team of all time.

Once again, I'm in full agreement with you. Not winning championships and not playing in a big market shouldn't be held against Jimmy -- It just will be. We shouldn't have sexism and racism either. Somethings are, unfortunately, just the way they are.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

There is no doubt hines Ward is a HoF WR, his stats are about as good or better than Michael Irvin, and like Irvin he has 2 SB rings, ok Irvin has 3 but whatever. He does so much more than catch the ball, he embodies what an NFL player should strive to be. I love his game even though I hate the Steelers. Writers across the country love this guy, and I believe it might take a couple ballots but I am sure he will make it in. Between his blocking and also being a vocal member of his team, he really sets the pace for the Steelers on offense. Guy is an animal and I would choose him on a short list of WR to have on my team. Anyone just typing no isn't really thinking in my opinion.

MOP -Take the list I mentioned several posts ago and rank the WR in terms of who you think is most deserving to get in the HOF. Historically, only a handful of players from in and around the same era will get in. And those are just the players AHEAD of him statistically speaking. There are guys behind him (as SSOG mentioned) that could go on to be more productive than Ward.I'm not saying that Ward isn't deserving, but you can't put a bus full of people into a sedan. Only so many people can fit.

Ward is driving the bus.

 

[spider321]

No.

Very good for many years, but not a Hall of Famer.

 

[Jewell]

And we're all in agreement that Hines is the best Steelers' receiver ever, right?

There's a difference between "better than Swann" and "the best receiver in Pittsburgh history", and that difference's name is John Stallworth.

Stallworth considered, Hines is the best.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Jerry Rice...moot point cause he's in

Marvin Harrison...also in about 5 years

Cris Carter...already going in

Tim Brown...already going in

Isaac Bruce...going in

Terrell Owens...going in perhaps but not 1st ballot because of the media

Andre Reed

Keenan McCardell

Torry Holt

Randy Moss...will go in

Jimmy Smith

Irving Fryar

Rod Smith

Muhsin Muhammad

This list is not hard to sort thru. None of the guys going in really has a major impact on Ward. Carter, Brown, Rice...their era was over when Ward starting winning Super Bowls in the last 5 years

His era is really TO, Moss, the list is actually really short David.

Name 5 WRs that have played the enitre decade of 2000-2009 that deserve to get in over him? You can't do it...guys that are sitting and waiting to get in will watch Ward lap them into the HoF...Reed, Smith, McCardell(joke right?), Muhammed...those guys don't have 2 big rings of gold with diamonds decorated on them do they? It matters to hoF voters adn they will put Ward into the HoF...sometimes it is more than stats. Swann and Stallworth are in and he has shattered their marks excpet he has a couple less rings right now.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

No.Very good for many years, but not a Hall of Famer.

What do you measure a HoF player as? Ward has over 800+ recpetions and 2 SB rings, plus he gets accolades for his blocking and ability to not chicken #### out of tackles. The guy is a baller unlike Patty Crayton who let a GD Punter escort him untouched out of bounds the other night...Ward would have run that guy over and made sure he made contact with him. It matters, voters see it, this place is all about stats because its FF. This board thinks Tony Dungy will be challenged to get into the HoF which he won't so I'm not sure the board consensus on this matter is all its cracked up to be.

 

[Jewell]

Terrell Owens...going in perhaps but not 1st ballot because of the media

I would lose respect for the media if this happened. T.O. -- Flaming ###, but 1st ballot HOFer.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Terrell Owens...going in perhaps but not 1st ballot because of the media

I would lose respect for the media if this happened. T.O. -- Flaming ###, but 1st ballot HOFer.

I love his play but I think they make him wait a year or two...no rings. Other players put up great numbers, Reed comes to mind and he is still waiting to get in although he had a much better relationship with the media and ent to 4 straight SB.

 

[David Yudkin]

Jerry Rice...moot point cause he's inMarvin Harrison...also in about 5 yearsCris Carter...already going inTim Brown...already going inIsaac Bruce...going inTerrell Owens...going in perhaps but not 1st ballot because of the media Andre ReedKeenan McCardellTorry HoltRandy Moss...will go in Jimmy Smith Irving Fryar Rod Smith Muhsin Muhammad This list is not hard to sort thru. None of the guys going in really has a major impact on Ward. Carter, Brown, Rice...their era was over when Ward starting winning Super Bowls in the last 5 yearsHis era is really TO, Moss, the list is actually really short David. Name 5 WRs that have played the enitre decade of 2000-2009 that deserve to get in over him? You can't do it...guys that are sitting and waiting to get in will watch Ward lap them into the HoF...Reed, Smith, McCardell(joke right?), Muhammed...those guys don't have 2 big rings of gold with diamonds decorated on them do they? It matters to hoF voters adn they will put Ward into the HoF...sometimes it is more than stats. Swann and Stallworth are in and he has shattered their marks excpet he has a couple less rings right now.

If you are already saying yes to Rice, Harrison, Brown, Carter, Bruce, Moss, and Owens, you are putting in more WR from a consolidated timeframe than the HOF has done before. Not saying they won't do it, only that it would be paving new ground.Of other guys in the Ward era . . .RSmith, JSmith, Holt, SSmith, Chad 85, Boldin, Fitz, Megatron, Wayne, AJohnsonThat's a lot of players that will have overlapped a similar 10 year timeframe.Ward is still playing, so who know where he will end up statistically and how many rings he gets. So all of this is way premature. But compared to his peers, has he been light years above his contemporaries?

 

[Jewell]

The guy is a baller

This may be a bit off subject, but I'm convinced that if we cloned Hines, created an Army of him, we'd never lose another war.

 

[infantsam]

No.Very good for many years, but not a Hall of Famer.

What do you measure a HoF player as? Ward has over 800+ recpetions and 2 SB rings, plus he gets accolades for his blocking and ability to not chicken #### out of tackles. The guy is a baller unlike Patty Crayton who let a GD Punter escort him untouched out of bounds the other night...Ward would have run that guy over and made sure he made contact with him. It matters, voters see it, this place is all about stats because its FF. This board thinks Tony Dungy will be challenged to get into the HoF which he won't so I'm not sure the board consensus on this matter is all its cracked up to be.

My opinion it's a close call.But what MAY change the tide was noted by Collingsworth in the Chicago game after he messed up. I think it was a Chi DB blitzing and from the slot position "an angry Hines Ward" just absolutely BLEW HIM UP. If you didn't see it - I mean feet off the ground going backwards and on the ground. There are not that many players with that type of power. Woodson could throw fullbacks out of the way, Reggie White could arm throw tackles out of his way etc.When a player re-defines the position/causes rule changes (or 'point of emphasis) in some fashion it is a bump up and deservedly so.I think he still needs another exceptional year/Super Bowl or something.BTW - Cheapshot? What self respecting defensive player would even mutter those words.

 

[nashua55]

Hines is a good solid player, but when I think of Hall of Fame recievers of his era, Moss, Owens and Harrison fit the bill. Was Hines a great team player, Yes, but HOFer, no way.

 

[CalBear]

My guess is that Ward will be the Art Monk of his era--not really deserving of a HOF spot, but having enough cheerleaders that eventually he squeaks in.

 

[Michael Fox Fan]

No.Very good for many years, but not a Hall of Famer.

What do you measure a HoF player as? Ward has over 800+ recpetions and 2 SB rings, plus he gets accolades for his blocking and ability to not chicken #### out of tackles. The guy is a baller unlike Patty Crayton who let a GD Punter escort him untouched out of bounds the other night...Ward would have run that guy over and made sure he made contact with him. It matters, voters see it, this place is all about stats because its FF. This board thinks Tony Dungy will be challenged to get into the HoF which he won't so I'm not sure the board consensus on this matter is all its cracked up to be.

See post #15. SSOG laid out a pretty compelling argument for why Ward doesn't belong.

 

[Chaka]

Chase has Ward ranked 29th most valuable WR of all time

It's settled then. Let's put him in the Hall of Most Valuable.

Did you even both to read the info in the link?

Yes. Let's put him in the Hall of Arbitrarily Defined Statistics.

I apologize; that was a smarmy response.

Chase clearly knows his statistics and makes compelling arguments but everything cannot be distilled down into a formula for the purposes of comparing X vs Y. Chase goes to great lengths to exclude subjective variables and even greater lengths to define the value of touchdowns and receptions based on down and field position (discussed in other blogs) but what about other non subjective measurables that were excluded? Should players be discounted relative to others based on 40 yard dash times? Height? Vision? Leaping ability? Hand size? What about measuring proprioception? Should there be adjustments for overcoming physical shortcomings? These are all measurable variables. Where does one stop? How do we know when we have identified the ultimate formula for player comparison?

No Hines Ward does not belong in the Hall of Fame.

 

[SSOG]

Name 5 WRs that have played the enitre decade of 2000-2009 that deserve to get in over him? You can't do it...guys that are sitting and waiting to get in will watch Ward lap them into the HoF...Reed, Smith, McCardell(joke right?), Muhammed...those guys don't have 2 big rings of gold with diamonds decorated on them do they? It matters to hoF voters adn they will put Ward into the HoF...sometimes it is more than stats. Swann and Stallworth are in and he has shattered their marks excpet he has a couple less rings right now.

Actually, Rod Smith *DOES* have 2 big rings with gold and diamonds decorated on them.Anyway, your "name 5 WRs who have played the entire decade" metric is ridiculous gerrymandering. What, if a WR's career ended in 2008 instead of 2009 he can't be considered Ward's peer? If a WR entered the league in 2001 instead of 2000 he's not Ward's peer?Ward played from '98 to '09 (and going). Harrison played from '96 to '08. That means there were 10 seasons where both were in the league, but only 3 seasons where only one was in the league. That's a true contemporary, and Harrison deserves to be in over Ward. Moss came in the same time as Ward, and Owens came in two years earlier. They're true contemporaries, and they're both in. Holt has played from '99 to '09, and he's in over Ward. Bruce has played from '94 to '09, and he's in over Ward. I've already met your "name 5 WRs" criteria, and I'm just getting started. Boldin's career started in '03. If Hines retires after this season, he won't be eligible until the class of 2015, and by that point Boldin will likely be far more deserving than Ward. The two WRs will both be considered peers, because over 50% of Ward's career came with Boldin's in the league (and vice versa). Steve Smith came in in 2001, same story. Chad Johnson also came in in 2001, same story. We're now at 8 of Ward's peers who will be more deserving of enshrinement. Larry Fitzgerald came in in 2004, but it's very likely he will have surpassed Ward's numbers by the time Ward is eligible, and he will be more deserving. I've already mentioned Rod Smith, who is another true contemporary who is easily as deserving of enshrinement. We've now reached double-digit WRs, and this isn't taking into account any deserving candidates from previous eras who might not have made it in yet. The only way that all of the guys more deserving than Ward make it in is if the Hall starts electing more than 1 WR a year from here on out... which isn't going to happen.Heck, Shannon Sharpe has practically identical numbers to Ward from the TE position. He also had THREE superbowl rings (for two different franchises), and he has 8 pro bowls and 4 first-team AP All Pros to Ward's 4 pro bowls and 0 first team AP All Pros. Sharpe's also on an all-decade team, while there's no way in hell Ward makes it. Despite that, the Hall of Fame made Sharpe wait. If SHANNON SHARPE is having trouble making the hall of fame, Hines Ward doesn't have a prayer.

 

[Jewell]

Heck, Shannon Sharpe has practically identical numbers to Ward from the TE position. He also had THREE superbowl rings (for two different franchises), and he has 8 pro bowls and 4 first-team AP All Pros to Ward's 4 pro bowls and 0 first team AP All Pros. Sharpe's also on an all-decade team, while there's no way in hell Ward makes it. Despite that, the Hall of Fame made Sharpe wait. If SHANNON SHARPE is having trouble making the hall of fame, Hines Ward doesn't have a prayer.

I disagree with that. Hall of Fame voters continue this arcane view that some players are worthy of the Hall of Fame... just not on the first ballot. They treat the 1st ballot like it's some sort of upper-tier of the Hall of Fame. Whether one player makes it in his first year, has little bearing on whether a comparable player will ever make it.

 

[The Jerk]

What do you measure a HoF player as? ... this place is all about stats because its FF.

This question and our inclinations as FF players don't seem to get enough attention when potential Hall of Fame players are discussed.Before continuing, I'm a lifelong Steeler fan who does not believe Hines Ward should be in the Hall of Fame. I'm pretty sure I'm similarly already on record in one or both of the threads linked by David Yudkin. However, I find that far too much of the discussion revolves around statistics. Naturally, statistics have value in these discussions, but as threads continue, it seems that the majority of posters are not looking for Hall of Fame players as much as for Hall of Elite Career Statistics players. They are not the same thing.Lynn Swann and Joe Namath regularly take a beating for being in the Hall of Fame, and as more posters (and football fans in general) who never saw these players play at their peak (and in many cases not at all) join the discussion, they cannot possibly understand how they were even up for consideration. A parallel for me is Gale Sayers, who I never saw play except for in the occasional NFL films production. If I simply look at his career statistics, I will scratch my head about why he is in the Hall of Fame, too. I might notice 56 TDs in 68 games as a pretty high ratio, but of course that doesn't do Sayers any justice. If I look at individual seasons, I will start to get a better idea of his worthiness, noticing 22 TDs in 14 games as a rookie and 46 TDs in 41 games through three seasons.However, if all you do is look at his career "comparison" players, generated by statistical similarity, he is grouped with the following players (at pro-football-reference.com, of course): Edgar Bennett, Rudi Johnson, Steven Jackson, Terry Metcalf, Curt Warner, Jamal Anderson, Eddie Price, Ricky Williams, Altie Taylor, Dan Towler. Not one of these players is in the Hall of Fame or likely to make it in the future.It's only when you read about him and find quotations by players, coaches and media of his era that you start to realize why he clearly belongs in the Hall of Fame. It is not the Hall of Elite Career Statistics.Hines Ward has no chance to earn entry into the Hall of Fame based on his statistics. At this point, as I stated before, even with his intangibles, toughness, blocking reputation and Super Bowl XL MVP award, he's still on my outside looking in. However, I don't think HoF enshrinement for Ward is as laughable as some in this thread portray it to be. I believe statistics are not valued nearly as much by the people who actually enshrine players as they are in this forum. If Ward maintains his performance for another two to three seasons and the Steelers continue to be a successful franchise, his career statistics may be good enough that the combination of his achievements, team success and uniqueness as a player in this era could make him more distinct and memorable than many of the players who just by the numbers appear to be superior.

 

[nxmehta]

 

[SSOG]

I disagree with that. Hall of Fame voters continue this arcane view that some players are worthy of the Hall of Fame... just not on the first ballot. They treat the 1st ballot like it's some sort of upper-tier of the Hall of Fame. Whether one player makes it in his first year, has little bearing on whether a comparable player will ever make it.

I think that's more true in baseball than in football.

Hines Ward has no chance to earn entry into the Hall of Fame based on his statistics. At this point, as I stated before, even with his intangibles, toughness, blocking reputation and Super Bowl XL MVP award, he's still on my outside looking in. However, I don't think HoF enshrinement for Ward is as laughable as some in this thread portray it to be. I believe statistics are not valued nearly as much by the people who actually enshrine players as they are in this forum. If Ward maintains his performance for another two to three seasons and the Steelers continue to be a successful franchise, his career statistics may be good enough that the combination of his achievements, team success and uniqueness as a player in this era could make him more distinct and memorable than many of the players who just by the numbers appear to be superior.

Like I said before, to me it's not a question of "statistics" or "intangibles", it's a simple numbers game. Regardless of statistics or anything, Moss/Owens/Harrison/Bruce/Holt all get in before Ward, absolutely no question in my mind. Also, of the retired guys who aren't in yet, Rice/Brown/Carter all get in over Ward, again no question in my mind (although with Brown it's mostly a statistics thing). I think that everyone can agree that all 8 of those names make the Hall of Fame before Ward could even be considered as the most deserving WR not yet in the hall... agreed?Also, by the time Ward has been retired 5 years, I think it's almost a certainty that at least 1 and likely 2 from the Smiff/Ochocinco/Fitzgerald/Boldin quartet will have surpassed Ward's HoF candidacy. Again, does anyone disagree with that?As long as you agree with the premise that those guys get in the hall before Ward, then I don't think there's any way in hell Ward makes the hall. There are 20 receivers in the HoF right now, and I just named 10 guys more deserving. Does anyone really think that, after electing 20 receivers in the first 45 years of its existance, the Hall will elect 10 more in the next 5-10 years? Because I think there's roughly a 0% chance that happens. And as a borderline guy, if Ward doesn't make it in the next 10 years, I doubt he ever makes it, because more and more WRs are going to surpass him (Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, maybe Greg Jennings, maybe Marques Colston... who knows?).Even ignoring the guys who are ARGUABLY better than Ward but not CLEARLY better than Ward (Andre Reed, Rod Smith, Jimmy Smith, etc), the only way enough guys get elected to the hall to leave Ward the best WR not yet in the hall is if the hall starts electing more than twice as many WRs a year as they historically have (an average of 1 WR a year from here on out). And that simply isn't going to happen (as evidenced by the huge struggle Art Monk faced to make the hall).Given that, the only way Ward makes the hall of fame is if he somehow surpasses half of the 8 guys I already mentioned (Rice, Brown, Carter, Moss, Owens, Harrison, Bruce, Holt), and somehow holds off half of the guys nipping on his heels (Ochocinco, Smiff, Fitz, Boldin). And I can't see that happening. I'm not talking about from a statistical standpoint, I'm talking about from an actual real-world NFL standpoint. MAYBE he can knock off Bruce (I doubt it- Bruce was just SO good early on in his career, and he's lasted forever, so I think Bruce will appeal more to the guys who love peak value *AND* the guys who love longevity). I personally might put him above Brown (although I think the statistical edge there will ultimately prove insurmountable for hall voters). I think he could hold off Boldin, certainly. But the rest of them?Like I said, it's a simple numbers game. Too many WRs from this era are more deserving, regardless of how you measure a deserving WR, for Ward to make it into the Hall.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

No.Very good for many years, but not a Hall of Famer.

What do you measure a HoF player as? Ward has over 800+ recpetions and 2 SB rings, plus he gets accolades for his blocking and ability to not chicken #### out of tackles. The guy is a baller unlike Patty Crayton who let a GD Punter escort him untouched out of bounds the other night...Ward would have run that guy over and made sure he made contact with him. It matters, voters see it, this place is all about stats because its FF. This board thinks Tony Dungy will be challenged to get into the HoF which he won't so I'm not sure the board consensus on this matter is all its cracked up to be.

See post #15. SSOG laid out a pretty compelling argument for why Ward doesn't belong.

Weak...Rod Smith didn't run block the way Ward does and certainly wasn't as tough although he had his run.Did I see Jimmy Smith and McCardell? Please, not even close to Ward, don't care about the catches. he will be judged on way more than his production which is still more than Michael Irvin I bleive...different type of WR, different role, and I think he's a HoF, if you don't fine. He is likely to make a run at 1,000 receptions before its done so I don't think stats are going to be an issue anyways.

 

[Black&Gold]

Those saying that the HOF have never put that many WRs from one era before need to consider the following....Has the WR position ever been as important than it has been over the past 10 years? The NFL has been a run first league until recently. Hines Ward was one of the best WRs of that era. The Steelers have never been a pass first team....until now. Ward will get in. Take it to the bank. He might get another ring or two as well.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Name 5 WRs that have played the enitre decade of 2000-2009 that deserve to get in over him? You can't do it...guys that are sitting and waiting to get in will watch Ward lap them into the HoF...Reed, Smith, McCardell(joke right?), Muhammed...those guys don't have 2 big rings of gold with diamonds decorated on them do they? It matters to hoF voters adn they will put Ward into the HoF...sometimes it is more than stats. Swann and Stallworth are in and he has shattered their marks excpet he has a couple less rings right now.

Actually, Rod Smith *DOES* have 2 big rings with gold and diamonds decorated on them.Anyway, your "name 5 WRs who have played the entire decade" metric is ridiculous gerrymandering. What, if a WR's career ended in 2008 instead of 2009 he can't be considered Ward's peer? If a WR entered the league in 2001 instead of 2000 he's not Ward's peer?

(Name 5 WRs that have played the better part of this decade that hands down are better than Hines Ward, you can't and you sidestepped it to run into this next thing I get to read.)

Ward played from '98 to '09 (and going). Harrison played from '96 to '08. That means there were 10 seasons where both were in the league, but only 3 seasons where only one was in the league.

Harrison is in so what's the difference? he had a storied career with peyton manning who is goinginto the HoF...it hasn't been talked about but when the QBs gets in it only helps the WRs too. I agree Harrison is HoF and played the whole decade with Ward, he laso won a SB in this era. Has no impact on Ward

That's a true contemporary, and Harrison deserves to be in over Ward. Moss came in the same time as Ward, and Owens came in two years earlier. They're true contemporaries, and they're both in.

Holt has played from '99 to '09, and he's in over Ward.

(To you but maybe not to hoF voters.)

Bruce has played from '94 to '09, and he's in over Ward.

I agree Bruce is in and that's why I downgrade Holt some.

I've already met your "name 5 WRs" criteria, and I'm just getting started. Boldin's career started in '03. If Hines retires after this season, he won't be eligible until the class of 2015, and by that point Boldin will likely be far more deserving than Ward. The two WRs will both be considered peers, because over 50% of Ward's career came with Boldin's in the league (and vice versa). Steve Smith came in in 2001, same story. Chad Johnson also came in in 2001, same story. We're now at 8 of Ward's peers who will be more deserving of enshrinement. Larry Fitzgerald came in in 2004, but it's very likely he will have surpassed Ward's numbers by the time Ward is eligible, and he will be more deserving. I've already mentioned Rod Smith, who is another true contemporary who is easily as deserving of enshrinement. We've now reached double-digit WRs, and this isn't taking into account any deserving candidates from previous eras who might not have made it in yet. The only way that all of the guys more deserving than Ward make it in is if the Hall starts electing more than 1 WR a year from here on out... which isn't going to happen.

Heck, Shannon Sharpe has practically identical numbers to Ward from the TE position. He also had THREE superbowl rings (for two different franchises), and he has 8 pro bowls and 4 first-team AP All Pros to Ward's 4 pro bowls and 0 first team AP All Pros. Sharpe's also on an all-decade team, while there's no way in hell Ward makes it. Despite that, the Hall of Fame made Sharpe wait. If SHANNON SHARPE is having trouble making the hall of fame, Hines Ward doesn't have a prayer.

If you just measure pure stats...but HoF voters measure way more SSOG, Swann and Stallworth prove that over and over again. Ward is popular in the media, blocks better than almost any other WR, sets the tone, and is vital to his team which is one of th emost successful in this decade, and of all time...it's like getting a degree form Princeton, it weighs more than getting one form Brooklyn College.

How many of Ward's catches were big time catches and not garbage time stats when his team was behind or losing? You think voters just sit down and look at a guys stat sheet and vote him in. This is why some of the people are not in that this board thinks should be in. I get access to the local media down here in Miami including 1 HoF voter, I'm sure there are others. Stats are great but if you are only getting in on stats they have to be outstanding. Ward offers so many other reasons to vote himinto the HoF and he's not done playing...1,000 receptions is not out of reach for him. If he had 1,000 would you still say he doesn't deserve in the HoF? You might have answered it somewehre else int he thread.

Edited: Sorry for all the spelling errors, in a hurry at work.