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Hoda Muthana and the case for revoking birthright citizenship (1 Viewer)

Henry Ford

Henry Ford

Footballguy
https://www.npr.org/2019/02/21/696537248/alabama-woman-joined-isis-cant-come-back-trump-says?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20190221

An Alabama 20 year old joined ISIS and spent four years calling for attacks on the US.  She is now in a refugee camp, says she was brainwashed and human trafficked, and wants to come home. 

The President has stated she will not be allowed back in the country. 

This appears to be the test case for revoking birthright citizenship without due process. 

 
There should be some sort of due process here, but I'm 100% in favor of revoking citizenship for someone who joins a hostile military or insurgent group.  In the event that she does return to the US, she should be prosecuted.

 
Well, we tried and convicted Tokyo Rose, right? And the British executed Lord Haw Haw for treason. Isn’t this similar? 

 
I think she should get due process and be tried as a traitor. 

Bad facts make bad law. This is one of those cases.  

 
Also I believe Bobby Fischer was not allowed re-entry into the US after his support for the 9/11 terrorists. 

 
Henry Ford said:
This appears to be the test case for revoking birthright citizenship without due process. 
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This is insane. Totally unconstitutional, citizenship is not a matter of presidential fiat. But let's keep in mind that just because a (this) president does something and it's not sued upon that that means it's a done thing constitutionally. I have no idea how this plays out, but I don't think this is a precedent.

As a side note I'm not sure why if she did come here she could not face charges for consorting with the the enemy (or whatever).

 
rockaction said:
I think she should get due process and be tried as a traitor. 
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This seems obvious to me. Apparently I don't know what I'm missing. Plus she could have a wealth of intelligence knowledge and is essentially a cult survivor. i'm certain the FBI would be interested in interviewing her for that.

 
Dedfin said:
This seems obvious to me. Apparently I don't know what I'm missing. Plus she could have a wealth of intelligence knowledge and is essentially a cult survivor. i'm certain the FBI would be interested in interviewing her for that.
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Yeah, I'm not sure exactly what prosecutorial evidence they need or where her situation fits into settled law to be tried for treason, though. 

It just seems like a common sense solution to this. I could be dead wrong.  

 
Henry Ford said:
https://www.npr.org/2019/02/21/696537248/alabama-woman-joined-isis-cant-come-back-trump-says?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20190221

An Alabama 20 year old joined ISIS and spent four years calling for attacks on the US.  She is now in a refugee camp, says she was brainwashed and human trafficked, and wants to come home. 

The President has stated she will not be allowed back in the country. 

This appears to be the test case for revoking birthright citizenship without due process. 
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Much of Europe is in the same position and pondering the same thing. AFAIK only Britain has stripped someone born there of their citizenship, but not entirely sure. I know Danish people who joined ISIS have had their passports invalidated but whether that constitutes revoking citizenship I'm not sure.

Oh and just as an apropos, Trump is pressuring European countries to take back their "Hoda Muthanas". To which he's so far gotten the finger

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
This is insane. Totally unconstitutional, citizenship is not a matter of presidential fiat. But let's keep in mind that just because a (this) president does something and it's not sued upon that that means it's a done thing constitutionally. I have no idea how this plays out, but I don't think this is a precedent.

As a side note I'm not sure why if she did come here she could not face charges for consorting with the the enemy (or whatever).
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She would.  And her lawyer has indicated she expects and wants to face justice. 

 
I haven't been following this story at all, but I don't see how not letting someone into the country is the same as stripping them of their citizenship. I'm also not sure I agree with the concept of taking away citizenship for committing crimes, even treason. If someone has betrayed their country, then prosecute them for that. I guess I see citizenship as something more immutable. You can renounce it (and must if you serve in a foreign military or government), but I don't think you should have it taken away from you. I also find it weird to think that someone could not be a citizen of any country (although I once knew a woman whose mother had come to the US from Czechoslovakia before the fall of Communism and had stayed ever since on a green card; the only passport she possessed was from a country that no longer existed).

Anyway, that's my initial take. I haven't really given this much thought and could certainly be persuaded otherwise.

 
Seems pretty clear to me if she wants to enter the country and retain citizenship she should get due process. That due process should (unless there are mitigating circumstances, I know nothing about the case) end in her being stripped of citizenship and either deported or put on trial. My only question is when we say 20 year old, that means she is 20 now. How old was she when she defected? If she was a minor, I could see some pause at revoking citizenship and trying for treason. 

 
zftcg said:
I haven't been following this story at all, but I don't see how not letting someone into the country is the same as stripping them of their citizenship. I'm also not sure I agree with the concept of taking away citizenship for committing crimes, even treason. If someone has betrayed their country, then prosecute them for that. I guess I see citizenship as something more immutable. You can renounce it (and must if you serve in a foreign military or government), but I don't think you should have it taken away from you. I also find it weird to think that someone could not be a citizen of any country (although I once knew a woman whose mother had come to the US from Czechoslovakia before the fall of Communism and had stayed ever since on a green card; the only passport she possessed was from a country that no longer existed).

Anyway, that's my initial take. I haven't really given this much thought and could certainly be persuaded otherwise.
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This is how it's revoking citizenship. And yes, I agree.  She should be prosecuted.

State Department:

Ms. Hoda Muthana is not a U.S. citizen and will not be admitted into the United States. She does not have any legal basis, no valid U.S. passport, no right to a passport, nor any visa to travel to the United States. We continue to strongly advise all U.S. citizens not to travel to Syria
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Ilov80s said:
Seems pretty clear to me if she wants to enter the country and retain citizenship she should get due process. That due process should (unless there are mitigating circumstances, I know nothing about the case) end in her being stripped of citizenship and either deported or put on trial. My only question is when we say 20 year old, that means she is 20 now. How old was she when she defected? If she was a minor, I could see some pause at revoking citizenship and trying for treason. 
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No, she was 20 then.  She's 24 now.

 
Henry Ford said:
This is how it's revoking citizenship. And yes, I agree.  She should be prosecuted.

Ms. Hoda Muthana is not a U.S. citizen and will not be admitted into the United States. She does not have any legal basis, no valid U.S. passport, no right to a passport, nor any visa to travel to the United States. We continue to strongly advise all U.S. citizens not to travel to Syria
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What happened to her passport? Or are they saying they revoked her passport and therefore she doesn't have a valid one?

 
zftcg said:
What happened to her passport? Or are they saying they revoked her passport and therefore she doesn't have a valid one?
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Could be either.  She was living as the wife of three different ISIS fighters over four years, she probably didn't do a great job of keeping track of her passport.

 
Henry Ford said:
Could be either.  She was living as the wife of three different ISIS fighters over four years, she probably didn't do a great job of keeping track of her passport.
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I'm beginning to have less and less sympathy for her personal plight, though she still deserves due process.  

 
After looking it up I stand corrected; we did not revoke Bobby Fischer’s citizenship; he did that himself after we refused to let him back in the country. Fischer died in Iceland where he sought citizenship (it was under review when he died.) 

So I don’t know if our government has ever revoked citizenship before. Certainly if it is done, it requires due process. 

Now Im curious and I can’t seem to find it online: did we revoke the citizenship of Confederate leaders? It seems like we must have because Gerald Ford restored Robert E Lee’s citizenship. 

 
rockaction said:
I'm beginning to have less and less sympathy for her personal plight, though she still deserves due process.  
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Oh, I have zero sympathy for her personal plight.  This isn't about her.  It's about whether the state department can just decide you're not a citizen anymore.

 
timschochet said:
After looking it up I stand corrected; we did not revoke Bobby Fischer’s citizenship; he did that himself after we refused to let him back in the country. Fischer died in Iceland where he sought citizenship (it was under review when he died.) 

So I don’t know if our government has ever revoked citizenship before. Certainly if it is done, it requires due process. 

Now Im curious and I can’t seem to find it online: did we revoke the citizenship of Confederate leaders? It seems like we must have because Gerald Ford restored Robert E Lee’s citizenship. 
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I believe that all citizens of the Confederate States who took up arms against the United States were then citizens of that putative country.  It has been cast historically as a sort of hybrid renouncing/revoking of citizenship.  It will almost certainly be what the State Department relies on.

 
timschochet said:
I meant the government should, after due process, be able to remove her citizenship
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I know you're asking that.  But "committed treason" isn't enough.  And I don't know if they can get to the level of revoking citizenship.

 
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allow her back, give her a trial, send her to prison for whatever the judicial system thinks is fair for her crimes

I'm ok with that 

 
We didn't revoke her citizenship. We unilaterally declared that she was never a citizen. Without due process.

We either need to prosecute her as a citizen or we need to go through the legal process of revoking her citizenship.

No one should be cheering what the government has done here.

 
I grew up Catholic. Did my first communion, went through confirmation, the whole nine yards. I am now an atheist, so at one point I looked into whether there was some way to not be officially Catholic anymore. Nope. Once you’re confirmed, you’re always Catholic in the eyes of the Church. The Church couldn’t even withdraw my Catholicism if it wanted to. I used to think that being ex-communicated could render a person no-longer-Catholic, but that’s not quite right. Being ex-communicated doesn’t mean that you’re no longer Catholic. It means that you’re a Catholic who is destined for Hell.

American birthright citizenship should be like that. What Ms. Muthana did shouldn’t make her a non-American citizen. It should make her an American citizen who will hang for treason.

 
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Bozeman Bruiser said:
Interesting plot twist, her passport and citizenship were revoked in January 2016 by the Obama administration.

Something to do with her dad's diplomatic status at the time of her birth.

link to the lawsuit, warning, PDF that may automatically download

The relevant details are on page 7.

Maybe some of the lawyerguys can translate that for us common folk.
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Children born to diplomats on American soil are not American citizens - they're not "subject to the jurisdiction thereof."  

Her father had his diplomatic post revoked by letter in 1994.  The U.S. government wasn't officially notified by Yemen until 1995.  In between, he applied for U.S. residency, using the letter as the basis.  His daughter was also born.

The argument appears to be that he was still a diplomat because the government had not been notified by Yemen that he wasn't, and therefore his daughter is not an American citizen.  

And it's incredibly aggravating as a position for our government to take.

 
She did have a passport, though, right?  Not now, obviously, but when she decided to leave.  Would that not contradict the position of non-citizenship?

 
That one guy said:
She did have a passport, though, right?  Not now, obviously, but when she decided to leave.  Would that not contradict the position of non-citizenship?
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Not if it was obtained improperly, like by a person claiming citizenship which they now claim she doesn't have (and shouldn't had.)

 
Henry Ford said:
Not if it was obtained improperly, like by a person claiming citizenship which they now claim she doesn't have (and shouldn't had.)
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Seems a rather petty stance for our government to take.  I’d think the strong, more American stance would be to bring her home and showcase our system of laws and overall justice system.  That would, IMO, prove ourselves to be the betters of our enemy and demonstrate the greatness of our democracy.

 
That one guy said:
Seems a rather petty stance for our government to take.  I’d think the strong, more American stance would be to bring her home and showcase our system of laws and overall justice system.  That would, IMO, prove ourselves to be the betters of our enemy and demonstrate the greatness of our democracy.
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I agree.

 
Henry Ford said:
Children born to diplomats on American soil are not American citizens - they're not "subject to the jurisdiction thereof." 
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So if he was still technically a diplomat, seems cut and dry.

If he wasn't a diplomat....what was he?  You said he filed for residency, would he have been a legal or illegal alien at the time?  I guess a more detailed timeline would help here.

 
matttyl said:
So if he was still technically a diplomat, seems cut and dry.

If he wasn't a diplomat....what was he?  You said he filed for residency, would he have been a legal or illegal alien at the time?  I guess a more detailed timeline would help here.
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I have access to the same document you do.  The one BB linked.

 
matttyl said:
So if he was still technically a diplomat, seems cut and dry.

If he wasn't a diplomat....what was he?  You said he filed for residency, would he have been a legal or illegal alien at the time?  I guess a more detailed timeline would help here.
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Does that matter?

 
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