How can you keep someone from throwing games.... (1 Viewer)

[aposulli]

This is a spinoff of this thread:

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...=293419&st=

As long as h2h fantasy football has a playoff format there may always be some sort of incentive to throw a game at some point.

And in any dynasty league there is at least one additional reason to throw games as well...

First lets look at the reason someone may throw a game:

1) Team A may throw a game against Team B in order to give Team B the Win which would put them in the playoffs over a much "better" team. (link above applies to this situation)

2) Team A may throw a game if, for whatever reason, it gives them a "better" playoff matchup

In dynasty leagues...

3) Team A may throw a game in order to improve their draft position for next year (assuming league draft order the following year goes by record)

Throwing games is bad for one reason: (NO, IT'S NOT KARMA).... Because giving an opponent an autowin obviously puts all other teams at a disadvantage. Worst case scneario, it would leave a team out of the playoffs who would otherwise have won it if not for another team's autowin. In other specific situations it could screw a team out of a "Bye" in the playoffs.

So I'd like to hear any options/rules a league may be able to implement to avoid these situations....

Obviously a consolation bracket for non-playoff teams would work for Dynasty League tanking... but any others?

 

[fsufan]

So I'd like to hear any options/rules a league may be able to implement to avoid these situations....

easy. if rules are in place for no tanking and an owner(s) still does it then they get kicked out

 

[MarcO]

So I'd like to hear any options/rules a league may be able to implement to avoid these situations....

easy. if rules are in place for no tanking and an owner(s) still does it then they get kicked out

I think he is asking for suggestions on how to reward teams for not tanking rather than punish teams for tanking...

 

[Riffraff]

For the low teams vying for a better draft pick:

1. draft lottery, bottom teams roll the dice for position.

or

2. base draft posiiton depending upon "potential points" since the worst team in the league would most likely not be scoring points no matter what line-up they start.

 

[Gottabesweet]

In our league the toliet bowl winner (bottom 6 teams) battle it out just like the superbowl.

The winner gets the 1.1 dynasty rookie pick and nothing else.

 

[dparker713]

For my keeper league, the drafter order is determined by previous year finish. 5-10,3,4,2,1 - so you want to finish in fifth if you miss the playoffs.

 

[Hawk]

The best incentive we have found is relatively high weekly pots that are awarded to the 1st ($50) and 2nd ($25) highest scoring team each week. Even the teams with no chance at the playoffs usually put in their best players in hopes of winning some weekly pot money to offset their entry fee (since those teams won't be winning any of the prize money at the end).

This has been pretty effective for our league, but your entry fees have to be high enough to allow for it. We have 12 teams, with a $165 entry fee per team. After paying for the league website, that leaves enough to pay $75 per week for 16 weeks which = $1,200, and still have enough left over to pay $330 to 1st place, $165 to 2nd, $100 to 3rd, and $65 to 4th.

 

[Air Coryell]

If a team tanks their lineup they lose one spot on their next year's draft pick for each tanking incident.

 

[Nemesis]

I commish a keeper league and I have on very rare occasion contacted BOTH teams vying for the first pick next year and asked for each to set THE OTHER'S LINEUP and post it on the league msg board.

You better believe the best lineup gets entered and it created some added interest in some games..........knowing that you can try to knock out another from the first overall pick by trying to get them to win.

NOTE to all those who are going to cry "that I overstepped my bounds":

1-I first asked permission of each team and both agreed to it.

2-I don't do it every year.

 

[ExtraPoint]

The fear factor approach usually works...

1. Threaten them with a baseball bat

2. Keep their money and kick them out of the league

3. Beat them with the baseball bat (not reccommended)

4. Give their money to the team they screwed over, and make the tanker repay if he wants to stay in the league.

5. Count a tanked game as 14 losses

ect

There are also rule possiblities to encourage a team not to tank a game without threatening them.

1. Have a small weekly payout to highest scorer or game winners.

2. Loser playoffs or lottery for dynasty leagues.

3. Small payout for final regular season ranking.

ect

I still reccomend the fear factor approach because encouragement doesent always work when you are talking about people who have little morality. Using both approaches is probably best.

 

[aposulli]

bump.

I was basically looking for any ideas on how to banish throwing games. Like a legit penalty for throwing a game or a legit reward for not throwing games.

Some ideas that I saw mentioned which are probably the best ways to do it....

1) Make teams who finish last place any given week or season pay a penalty ($5-20)

2) Give teams who score the most on any given week a reward ($10+)

2) In dynasty, have a consolation bracket for non-playoff teams to determine next season's draft order

An idea a commisioner of mine had was to outline extactly what defines a "legit" lineup. He began by saying anyone who benches L.T. for a guy like Sammy Morris is clearly throwing a game and that would be an example of "throwing a game"....

Clearly he has good intentions, but this would be a big mistake to enforce such a rule where a manager wasn't allowed to bench specific players (studs).

IMO, in no way should a team HAVE to start a particular player over another. Unless that is you are talking about starting a player who is...

1) on Bye

2) not on an active NFL roster

3) perhaps a real-life backup QB

Anyone know how else you could restrict starting lineup requirements aside from the above 3 ideas without infringing too much upon a manager's right to start whoever they want?

 

[fuball]

No team can start more than one player that is questionalble or doubtfull and doesnt play (more than 1 player fo thos has to be out for the game)

A fine when more than one questionable or doubtfull player doesnt play

a loss of a draft pick if not enough starters are started.

The last five places in the league draw for the first place draft pick

 

[Marc Levin]

As soon as a team is eliminated from the playoffs, you go to "best starter" for those teams.

Unless there is a points winner - that is unfair to the other owners.

 

[Marc Levin]

Also, as I am sure has been suggested, a playoffs for first pick the following year is a good way to keep eliminated teams competitive till the end of the year.

 

[coolnerd]

Also, as I am sure has been suggested, a playoffs for first pick the following year is a good way to keep eliminated teams competitive till the end of the year.

This is my personal favorite. I am in one league which does this and don't recall having seen any tanking. Of course, some borderline playoff team could still try to tank into the toilet bowl race. Overall, the best way to insure no tanking is to have good owners who understand that is not just about 1 game when they tank, butthe give up could influence several other teams. Unfortunately, no matter the incentive or rule, for the person inclined to tank there will always be justification.

 

[Marc Levin]

Unfortunately, no matter the incentive or rule, for the person inclined to tank there will always be justification.

Human nature - people just fail to check in on time to make important changes, other leagues or other activities matter more, they don't follow all the news on their players or on WW players - it's not always disinterested tanking as much failure to be as interested as before.I've been guilty of it in no-money, friendly leagues when I fall out of contention or get blasted by IR players - by week 13/14, I may set my lineup in that league on Wed or Thurs and then plan to check back on Sunday morning while focusing on other leagues with more at stake. Sometimes, I forget to check the league that doesn't matter - it happens.

 

[porkins]

I think it is impossible to enforce. It happens in the NFL every year. Teams already locked in to possition for the playoffs will sit the stars the last week to prepare for the playoffs.

The year the Pats missed the playoffs, the Jets won the division because the Packers rested the normal starters and the Jets won the game.

 

[coolnerd]

Unfortunately, no matter the incentive or rule, for the person inclined to tank there will always be justification.

Human nature - people just fail to check in on time to make important changes, other leagues or other activities matter more, they don't follow all the news on their players or on WW players - it's not always disinterested tanking as much failure to be as interested as before.I've been guilty of it in no-money, friendly leagues when I fall out of contention or get blasted by IR players - by week 13/14, I may set my lineup in that league on Wed or Thurs and then plan to check back on Sunday morning while focusing on other leagues with more at stake. Sometimes, I forget to check the league that doesn't matter - it happens.

For me, what you describe is not tanking. When I think tanking, I assume intent of the owner, knowingly attempting to throw a game. If you have one or two decisions that I would not have made or one injured player because you set your line-up early in a week (I always do in case something happens in my real life) that is not a case for a tanking accusation.

 

[lod2005]

One time a guy in our league threw a game so he could get the #1 pick. He picked Kijana Carter. So as you can see, the FFL gods will enforce their own version of justice upon acts such as this. And it is not pleasant.

 

[offdee]

1) Institute a point spotting system for Playoff games.....+3pt spot for all wins better than opponent. So, if a 10-3 team is playing an 8-5 team, the 10-3 team gets a +6pt spot for their game. (This can be used for both Dynasty and Redrafts)

2) Do a reverse draft order for all non-playoff teams....meaning, the team that just missed making the playoffs gets the #1 pick the following year. The last place team gets the last pick amongst the non-playoff teams, and then the playoff teams rounds out the draft order depending on outcomes of their games. (This can only be used for Redrafts, as doesn't work in a Dynasty format)

This makes all teams continue playing out every game and want to win at all times.

 

[aposulli]

One time a guy in our league threw a game so he could get the #1 pick. He picked Kijana Carter. So as you can see, the FFL gods will enforce their own version of justice upon acts such as this. And it is not pleasant.

I'm sick of hearing about the Karma involved in throwing games, but I do think that it's funny this guy got Carter because he chose to throw a game because I'm guessing the #2 pick was McNair.

 

[Knight who says Ni]

I posted this in another thread as well, but our league has a separate "playoff" bracket for teams that did not make the playoffs. The winner of the loser playoffs gets the first pick both in our normal redraft, as well as our rookie keeper draft - that is incentive enough for keep losing teams from tanking.

Ni

 

[GregR_2]

I think it is impossible to enforce. It happens in the NFL every year. Teams already locked in to possition for the playoffs will sit the stars the last week to prepare for the playoffs. The year the Pats missed the playoffs, the Jets won the division because the Packers rested the normal starters and the Jets won the game.

This may sound like a nitpick, but this gets brought up as an argument in these threads every time and it isn't the same thing at all. The NFL rest starters to avoid injury. That they may not do as well in their game as a result is a CONSEQUENCE of a legitimate choice, not their GOAL.Just because it's a consequence in the NFL doesn't mean it's the same thing when someone does it as their goal in FF. If it became known an NFL team intentionally threw a game and let the other team outscore them, I don't think anyone thinks the NFL wouldn't come down on them hard.

 

[GregR_2]

For a dynasty league, potential points is a great answer since teams won't dump their best players just for the top pick the next year.

My dynasty league uses a combination of order of finish in the consolation bracket, and order of finish in the regular season. There is still some incentive to tank at the end of the regular season (though we have rules against it), but finishing 12th doesn't guarrantee them the top spot, though the worst they can get is the 4th pick.

In defining tanking, I think giving examples of things that may be considered tanking are a good thing, but I would also go with a fairly general definition. I tend to favor using "a reasonable person" as the measuring stick and leaving it to the owner to defend his action. So I use something along the lines of, "The commissioner will judge the owner's reasoning for his lineup on the basis of whether it is something a reasonable person could believe." I don't think a reasonable person would believe you start Morris over LT, or bench a stud unless it's putting in a really choice matchup over their bad matchup. It doesn't matter if the commish agrees, he just has to judge whether he thinks a reasonable person could believe what the owner is saying.

 

[Kenlin]

For a dynasty league, potential points is a great answer since teams won't dump their best players just for the top pick the next year.

In my opinion, this is the way to go for determining draft order in a dynasty league. If you play on MFL the potential points info is easy to find. It has it's own column in the Power Rank standings.It completely eliminates all tanking in a dynasty league and is also the most fair. In dynasty leagues it is important that the worst team gets the first pick. With a playoff system for draft picks, the worst team probably won't win the first pick.As for tanking to improve playoff position, that's much harder to regulate. A prize for the weekly high score helps but it won't eliminate it. You have to be careful handing out penalties though unless someone makes it obvious by starting players who are "out".

 

[turnit643]

First lets look at the reason someone may throw a game:1) Team A may throw a game against Team B in order to give Team B the Win which would put them in the playoffs over a much "better" team. (link above applies to this situation)2) Team A may throw a game if, for whatever reason, it gives them a "better" playoff matchupIn dynasty leagues...3) Team A may throw a game in order to improve their draft position for next year (assuming league draft order the following year goes by record)

The basic idea is to change to motivation behind the tanking. If you remove the incentive to tank, the tanking fades away (unless an owner is determined to undermine the league - a case which is easily remedied by dumping the owner.)As for the situations you listed ... tanking to:1. help get a particular team into the playoffs - I really don't know what you could do to curtail this outside of making some kind of mandatory line-up requirements during the last few weeks of the season or attaching some kind of reward/penalty for winning/losing each game.2. get a better playoff match-up - an option to consider: in each of our conferences, two division winners and two wild cards qualify for the postseason. The best division winner gets a bye and the other three play H2H2H to see which one team will advance. No seeding problems.3. get a better draft pick - the losers bracket playoffs works, as does determining the draft order by records of the non-playoff teams (awarding the top pick to the best non-playoff team.)

 

[GregR_2]

You know, the most interesting tanking situation isn't the case of an owner trying to get a better playoff matchup or a draft pick, but where losing is his only way into the playoffs. Take this example situation:

Division winners make it in, plus 2 wildcard by record, plus the remaining highest scoring team.

Team A is out of the division race and has no chance at a record-based wildcard so needs to win the high points wildcard to get in.

Two other teams B & C tied for a division lead, with C holding the tiebreak, and neither would win a wildcard on record if they don't get the division. Team A has a commanding lead over Team B in total points, but trails Team C by a long way. So if team B wins his division, Team A loses the wildcard to C on total points. But if C wins the division, then A gets the wildcard with more points than B.

And of course, Team A plays Team C so tanking would directly affect who wins that division. So if Team A throws his game against C, Team C is assured at least a tie for the division, which he will win.... letting Team A beat out Team B for the high points wildcard. But if A wins and B happens to win his game, then B gets the division and A misses the playoffs when C gets the high points wildcard.

This can happen with straight record setups and head to head tiebreaks too. I recall someone, I want to say Ken Maxwell, posted last year about having been in this situation before.

I still wouldn't throw my game, but I'd sure hope I lost. I think that's the only situation I know of that I could empathize with someone considering tanking.

 

[aposulli]

In my opinion, this is the way to go for determining draft order in a dynasty league. If you play on MFL the potential points info is easy to find. It has it's own column in the Power Rank standings.

Didn't know this. Thanks

 

[jeremyx13]

For the low teams vying for a better draft pick:1. draft lottery, bottom teams roll the dice for position.or2. base draft posiiton depending upon "potential points" since the worst team in the league would most likely not be scoring points no matter what line-up they start.

One way we encourage bottom dwellers to stay competitive in our league is that the first non-money winner gets the first pick in next year's draft (currently 5th place) and there is a monetary compensation for high score for weeks 7-16. Just a note, our league is a H2H with no playoffs. We have 16 weeks with best record winning the championship.