How does your leage handle backup players / injuries? (1 Viewer)

[matttyl]

I can't believe my league hasn't had this issue come up in the 12 years we've had the league, but this issue came up yesterday. We have a league with MFL, which allows you to set up your backup players in case of injury....

Team A was playing team B. Team A had Doug Martin listed as a starter. Martin was a late scratch as we all know. Team A's first listed backup was Spiller. Both Martin and Spiller had games at 1. Around 2 o'clock Team A checked in, realized that Martin was out, and asked the commish to swap him out for Spiller, his first listed backup.

An hour or two later, Team B said that's not allowed - since Spiller's game had already started he shouldn't be able to be swapped in. He claims Team A's only option is to start a player who's game hadn't yet started - like Chris Ivory who's game wasn't until 4.

If that's the case, why does MFL even allow you to have backup players listed?

 

[Sweet Love]

This sounds as though it is a league issue not a system issue. You stated Team B said Spiller should not be allowed to be subbed in because his game already started. What does that have to do with system inserting backup players automatically?

 

[matttyl]

This sounds as though it is a league issue not a system issue. You stated Team B said Spiller should not be allowed to be subbed in because his game already started. What does that have to do with system inserting backup players automatically?

The system didn't insert Spiller automatically, the commish had to do it at the request of Team A. Teams have the ability to "declare backups" when they set their lineup each week - which Team A did by setting Spiller as their #1 backup. We've always had a rule that stated if someone in your starting lineup is out, then someone listed as your backup could come in his place.

I think Team B's issue was that Team A could have swapped out Martin for Ivory without commish intervention. So, for instance, lets say that Spiller got hurt early on in his 1 o'clock game (think Jamaal Charles) - Team A could have not requested that the commish swap Martin for Spiller (knowing that Spiller was going to lay a goose egg) and instead swap out Martin for a player who hadn't yet started (like Ivory).

I hope that makes sense.

 

[Topes]

Sounds like your league has a Team B issue.

I have no idea how MFL handles this. Sounds like your setup may require commish intervention. We have same rule in my league, going back to the 90s. Commish enters the backup.

 

[Craig_MiamiFL]

Unless I'm completely misunderstanding the purpose of this backup player, Spiller should be inserted by Commish.

 

[Hankmoody]

This sounds as though it is a league issue not a system issue. You stated Team B said Spiller should not be allowed to be subbed in because his game already started. What does that have to do with system inserting backup players automatically?

The system didn't insert Spiller automatically, the commish had to do it at the request of Team A. Teams have the ability to "declare backups" when they set their lineup each week - which Team A did by setting Spiller as their #1 backup. We've always had a rule that stated if someone in your starting lineup is out, then someone listed as your backup could come in his place.

I think Team B's issue was that Team A could have swapped out Martin for Ivory without commish intervention. So, for instance, lets say that Spiller got hurt early on in his 1 o'clock game (think Jamaal Charles) - Team A could have not requested that the commish swap Martin for Spiller (knowing that Spiller was going to lay a goose egg) and instead swap out Martin for a player who hadn't yet started (like Ivory).

I hope that makes sense.

Team A could always have done it manually had they been at a computer. What's the purpose of the rule, if not to do it after the fact? Either you babysit the lineup until kickoff, or you enact a good-faith rule like this. We have one in my local that works very similarly.

If that's the case, why does MFL even allow you to have backup players listed?

Don't blame it on MFL. They are very clear that this isn't an automatic anything, and it's entirely dependent on league definition.

http://football33.myfantasyleague.com/2014/support?L=21758&FAQ=826

1. How is the Backup Player Accounted for in your Lineup?Answer: Currently, backup players are specified for informational purposes only. Any backup player rules supported by leagues must be manually enforced (typically by having the commissioner manually replace starters with backup players in new starting lineups).

 

[chad in Indy]

Sounds like your league has a Team B issue.

I have no idea how MFL handles this. Sounds like your setup may require commish intervention. We have same rule in my league, going back to the 90s. Commish enters the backup.

I think the same. Seems Team B isn't applying the principle of the backup system correctly. What would be the point of listing Spiller as the backup if he isn't allowed to use him? As pointed out above, the purpose of listing the backup player is so you don't have to babysit your lineup and the rest of the league has a transparent view of who is to put in if the situation arises.

 

[shadyridr]

Sounds like this is a commish issue. He has to handle the transaction manually. MFL allows you to designate a backup so that there are no shenanigans. If the starter is out, then the declared backup has to be inserted in manually by the commish. Most leagues dont use a backup but that is my interpretation.

Oops read it again. Sounds like commish did make the move but Team B is whining. Sounds like Team B doesnt understand the rules in your league. Is he a new owner?

 

[matttyl]

I agree with all of the above, but I also see Team B's point (for the record, I'm Team A).

Martin's game wasn't until 4 - lets say he was a gametime call and wasn't declared OUT until 3ish. My backup, Spiller, had already already started and he was having a good game at that point - but lets assume for a second that he got hurt in the first quarter and was out for the rest of the game (think Jamaal Charles this past week).

At that point I'd know that if Martin was to be declared out, my backup would also give me a goose egg (or at most very few points)- but the system would have still allowed me to swap out Martin (who's game hadn't yet started) for Chris Ivory (who's game also hadn't yet started). Team B's point is that I could in theory make the decision at that time between Spiller (my listed backup, via commish intervention) knowing what he's scored or Ivory who's game hadn't yet started.

Anyone ever had that issue happen?

 

[Hankmoody]

Don't be a #####. If you're player A, say so from the get go. That's deceptive and now we wonder what other league rules and stipulations you're withholding because they work against you. edit: which it turns out you indeed did, not announcing the correct start time for Martin's game. Classy.

That's a different situation than you posed. In my mind, once you stipulate the backup/contingency, you're committed to one of those guys. Original if he plays, backup if not, no equivocation. It depends on how your rules are written and how your league is run. My homer is very much a "spirit of the law" league and I would handle it like that. Once you declare, you're committed, and if Spiller goes for a donut you get a donut and cannot swap Martin out for Sproles.

 

[matttyl]

Don't be a #####. If you're player A, say so from the get go. That's deceptive and now we wonder what other league rules and stipulations you're withholding because they work against you. edit: which it turns out you indeed did, not announcing the correct start time for Martin's game. Classy.

That's a different situation than you posed. In my mind, once you stipulate the backup/contingency, you're committed to one of those guys. Original if he plays, backup if not, no equivocation. It depends on how your rules are written and how your league is run. My homer is very much a "spirit of the law" league and I would handle it like that. Once you declare, you're committed, and if Spiller goes for a donut you get a donut and cannot swap Martin out for Sproles.

Sorry, Martin's game was at 4, not 1 - didn't mean to say it was at 1 which I later clarified. Doesn't matter to the question at hand, though.

Also, I didn't "swap out" Martin for a player that hadn't yet started - I asked the commish to swap him out for Spiller who was my first listed backup. That's the rule of our league. I listed Spiller as my backup before even the Thursday game had kicked off. It would have been the same had Spiller had a goose egg. I didn't even think about swapping Martin for Ivory (or any player who hadn't yet gone) - that idea was brought up to me by the other team. To me, that would have been the unfair move.

Edit - I didn't say I was team A initially as to not influence anyone's answer one way or the other.

 

[Hankmoody]

Don't be a #####. If you're player A, say so from the get go. That's deceptive and now we wonder what other league rules and stipulations you're withholding because they work against you. edit: which it turns out you indeed did, not announcing the correct start time for Martin's game. Classy.

That's a different situation than you posed. In my mind, once you stipulate the backup/contingency, you're committed to one of those guys. Original if he plays, backup if not, no equivocation. It depends on how your rules are written and how your league is run. My homer is very much a "spirit of the law" league and I would handle it like that. Once you declare, you're committed, and if Spiller goes for a donut you get a donut and cannot swap Martin out for Sproles.

Sorry, Martin's game was at 4, not 1 - didn't mean to say it was at 1 which I later clarified. Doesn't matter to the question at hand, though.

Also, I didn't "swap out" Martin for a player that hadn't yet started - I asked the commish to swap him out for Spiller who was my first listed backup. That's the rule of our league. I listed Spiller as my backup before even the Thursday game had kicked off. It would have been the same had Spiller had a goose egg. I didn't even think about swapping Martin for Ivory (or any player who hadn't yet gone) - that idea was brought up to me by the other team. To me, that would have been the unfair move.

Edit - I didn't say I was team A initially as to not influence anyone's answer one way or the other.

It matters a lot, because it goes to the issue of how the rule is worded/intended/enacted. If the owner isn't committed to said starter/backup combo then Owner B has a legitimate gripe with the rule in general. It's got a huge exploitable hole in it. The fact you didn't drive your truck through it this time doesn't change the fact it's a problem. Do your rules REQUIRE the swap out regardless of start time and result? What would the commish have done had you not reminded him? What if Martin had had a sudden recovery and went for 3? 20? Is this a strong commish that's invested in what's right for the league, or does he only do what the squeakiest wheel asks for first?

 

[wudaben]

Who cares if he is player A... Doesn't have anything to do with the situation.

Do your league rules spell out how the backup player is to be handled or has this rule previously been handled in this manner? If so, then you need to stay with the historical interpretation of the rule. I believe the use of Spiller as the backup is fine.

 

[matttyl]

Don't be a #####. If you're player A, say so from the get go. That's deceptive and now we wonder what other league rules and stipulations you're withholding because they work against you. edit: which it turns out you indeed did, not announcing the correct start time for Martin's game. Classy.

That's a different situation than you posed. In my mind, once you stipulate the backup/contingency, you're committed to one of those guys. Original if he plays, backup if not, no equivocation. It depends on how your rules are written and how your league is run. My homer is very much a "spirit of the law" league and I would handle it like that. Once you declare, you're committed, and if Spiller goes for a donut you get a donut and cannot swap Martin out for Sproles.

Sorry, Martin's game was at 4, not 1 - didn't mean to say it was at 1 which I later clarified. Doesn't matter to the question at hand, though.

Also, I didn't "swap out" Martin for a player that hadn't yet started - I asked the commish to swap him out for Spiller who was my first listed backup. That's the rule of our league. I listed Spiller as my backup before even the Thursday game had kicked off. It would have been the same had Spiller had a goose egg. I didn't even think about swapping Martin for Ivory (or any player who hadn't yet gone) - that idea was brought up to me by the other team. To me, that would have been the unfair move.

Edit - I didn't say I was team A initially as to not influence anyone's answer one way or the other.

It matters a lot, because it goes to the issue of how the rule is worded/intended/enacted. If the owner isn't committed to said starter/backup combo then Owner B has a legitimate gripe with the rule in general. It's got a huge exploitable hole in it. The fact you didn't drive your truck through it this time doesn't change the fact it's a problem. Do your rules REQUIRE the swap out regardless of start time and result? What would the commish have done had you not reminded him? What if Martin had had a sudden recovery and went for 3? 20? Is this a strong commish that's invested in what's right for the league, or does he only do what the squeakiest wheel asks for first?

Yes, our rules require the swap out regardless of start time - I assume (though it's never happened) that if I had swapped out Martin for a player that hadn't yet played without having the commish put in my backup, the commish would have then raised a red flag.

To answer your questions - the commish would have put in Spiller for Martin even if I hadn't asked him to, as the rules dictate that if a player is deemed "out", your first listed backup is put in his place. If you don't have a backup listed, you're SOL - but I'm sure the league in that case would allow the team to swap the OUT player for one who's game hadn't yet started without issue. If Martin had recovered and been on his team's active roster for the game, then he wouldn't have been deemed "OUT" and none of this would have mattered - I'd have been given however many points Martin either scored or didn't score.

 

[Johnny Blood]

Do you have written rules? If so, what do they say? Paste the rule.

If your backup choice isn't BINDING then there's a huge exploitable loophole here, as was said (and ignored) above.

 

[matttyl]

Do you have written rules? If so, what do they say? Paste the rule.

If your backup choice isn't BINDING then there's a huge exploitable loophole here, as was said (and ignored) above.

Cut and paste:

12.Backup players:

1. Must be set before start of first Sunday game (Thursday game is exception, if a backup player is involved in a Thursday game, must be set on that day prior to kickoff)

2. Backup players will be placed in the official lineup only if a player is officially out or inactive for a game. A player who is active but does not play or gets injured early in a game will not be substituted for.

3. If a team forgets to set backups prior to game time, they have no backups

4. No more last minute Defense subs by the Commish. Each team is responsible for keeping depth at each position and setting backups for players who may not go. If you have no backups for a position and a player becomes inactive, you will get a zero for that player

5. You must notify the Commish to make the backup substitution for your team

I don't believe we've ever had a situation where a player swapped a player for a player who's game hasn't started yet when they had already set a different player as a backup. We may want to add to the rules that the backup player is BINDING.

 

[Hankmoody]

Don't be a #####. If you're player A, say so from the get go. That's deceptive and now we wonder what other league rules and stipulations you're withholding because they work against you. edit: which it turns out you indeed did, not announcing the correct start time for Martin's game. Classy.

That's a different situation than you posed. In my mind, once you stipulate the backup/contingency, you're committed to one of those guys. Original if he plays, backup if not, no equivocation. It depends on how your rules are written and how your league is run. My homer is very much a "spirit of the law" league and I would handle it like that. Once you declare, you're committed, and if Spiller goes for a donut you get a donut and cannot swap Martin out for Sproles.

Sorry, Martin's game was at 4, not 1 - didn't mean to say it was at 1 which I later clarified. Doesn't matter to the question at hand, though.

Also, I didn't "swap out" Martin for a player that hadn't yet started - I asked the commish to swap him out for Spiller who was my first listed backup. That's the rule of our league. I listed Spiller as my backup before even the Thursday game had kicked off. It would have been the same had Spiller had a goose egg. I didn't even think about swapping Martin for Ivory (or any player who hadn't yet gone) - that idea was brought up to me by the other team. To me, that would have been the unfair move.

Edit - I didn't say I was team A initially as to not influence anyone's answer one way or the other.

It matters a lot, because it goes to the issue of how the rule is worded/intended/enacted. If the owner isn't committed to said starter/backup combo then Owner B has a legitimate gripe with the rule in general. It's got a huge exploitable hole in it. The fact you didn't drive your truck through it this time doesn't change the fact it's a problem. Do your rules REQUIRE the swap out regardless of start time and result? What would the commish have done had you not reminded him? What if Martin had had a sudden recovery and went for 3? 20? Is this a strong commish that's invested in what's right for the league, or does he only do what the squeakiest wheel asks for first?

Yes, our rules require the swap out regardless of start time - I assume (though it's never happened) that if I had swapped out Martin for a player that hadn't yet played without having the commish put in my backup, the commish would have then raised a red flag.

To answer your questions - the commish would have put in Spiller for Martin even if I hadn't asked him to, as the rules dictate that if a player is deemed "out", your first listed backup is put in his place. If you don't have a backup listed, you're SOL - but I'm sure the league in that case would allow the team to swap the OUT player for one who's game hadn't yet started without issue. If Martin had recovered and been on his team's active roster for the game, then he wouldn't have been deemed "OUT" and none of this would have mattered - I'd have been given however many points Martin either scored or didn't score.

Then there is no issue. You were committed and cannot benefit from the hindsight Owner B is claiming. Why is he even raising the question if it's this clear?

 

[Hankmoody]

Do you have written rules? If so, what do they say? Paste the rule.

If your backup choice isn't BINDING then there's a huge exploitable loophole here, as was said (and ignored) above.

Cut and paste:

12.Backup players:

1. Must be set before start of first Sunday game (Thursday game is exception, if a backup player is involved in a Thursday game, must be set on that day prior to kickoff)

2. Backup players will be placed in the official lineup only if a player is officially out or inactive for a game. A player who is active but does not play or gets injured early in a game will not be substituted for.

3. If a team forgets to set backups prior to game time, they have no backups

4. No more last minute Defense subs by the Commish. Each team is responsible for keeping depth at each position and setting backups for players who may not go. If you have no backups for a position and a player becomes inactive, you will get a zero for that player

5. You must notify the Commish to make the backup substitution for your team

I don't believe we've ever had a situation where a player swapped a player for a player who's game hasn't started yet when they had already set a different player as a backup. We may want to add to the rules that the backup player is BINDING.

This doesn't indicate you're committed. What if you go in at 3:30 and swap Martin to Ivory? You gain the hindsight of Spiller's donut and aren't bound to him as a backup? This seems to contradict your prior post in response to me.

 

[matttyl]

Do you have written rules? If so, what do they say? Paste the rule.

If your backup choice isn't BINDING then there's a huge exploitable loophole here, as was said (and ignored) above.

Cut and paste:

12.Backup players:

1. Must be set before start of first Sunday game (Thursday game is exception, if a backup player is involved in a Thursday game, must be set on that day prior to kickoff)

2. Backup players will be placed in the official lineup only if a player is officially out or inactive for a game. A player who is active but does not play or gets injured early in a game will not be substituted for.

3. If a team forgets to set backups prior to game time, they have no backups

4. No more last minute Defense subs by the Commish. Each team is responsible for keeping depth at each position and setting backups for players who may not go. If you have no backups for a position and a player becomes inactive, you will get a zero for that player

5. You must notify the Commish to make the backup substitution for your team

I don't believe we've ever had a situation where a player swapped a player for a player who's game hasn't started yet when they had already set a different player as a backup. We may want to add to the rules that the backup player is BINDING.

This doesn't indicate you're committed. What if you go in at 3:30 and swap Martin to Ivory? You gain the hindsight of Spiller's donut and aren't bound to him as a backup? This seems to contradict your prior post in response to me.

Which is why I said we should add something to say that the listed backup is binding. I don't believe anyone has every swapped out for a player who hasn't yet played with the hindsight of what the listed backup has done. We also have another rule that simply says "run your teams honorably" which the commish is the judge and jury on, which is why I said that he likely wouldn't allow a team to swap out for a player who hasn't yet played, even if the system would allow them to.

 

[Hankmoody]

Then what the point of this thread? B clearly has no case about the backup player being subbed, and you have a good faith clause and committed commish preventing hindsight from being abused. What's his beef?

 

[glumpy]

Do you have written rules? If so, what do they say? Paste the rule.

If your backup choice isn't BINDING then there's a huge exploitable loophole here, as was said (and ignored) above.

Cut and paste:

12.Backup players:

1. Must be set before start of first Sunday game (Thursday game is exception, if a backup player is involved in a Thursday game, must be set on that day prior to kickoff)

2. Backup players will be placed in the official lineup only if a player is officially out or inactive for a game. A player who is active but does not play or gets injured early in a game will not be substituted for.

3. If a team forgets to set backups prior to game time, they have no backups

4. No more last minute Defense subs by the Commish. Each team is responsible for keeping depth at each position and setting backups for players who may not go. If you have no backups for a position and a player becomes inactive, you will get a zero for that player

5. You must notify the Commish to make the backup substitution for your team

I don't believe we've ever had a situation where a player swapped a player for a player who's game hasn't started yet when they had already set a different player as a backup. We may want to add to the rules that the backup player is BINDING.

This doesn't indicate you're committed. What if you go in at 3:30 and swap Martin to Ivory? You gain the hindsight of Spiller's donut and aren't bound to him as a backup? This seems to contradict your prior post in response to me.

Which is why I said we should add something to say that the listed backup is binding. I don't believe anyone has every swapped out for a player who hasn't yet played with the hindsight of what the listed backup has done. We also have another rule that simply says "run your teams honorably" which the commish is the judge and jury on, which is why I said that he likely wouldn't allow a team to swap out for a player who hasn't yet played, even if the system would allow them to.

I don't understand what your issue is here and suspect that others don't either. Read your rule #1:

12.Backup players:

1. Must be set before start of first Sunday game (Thursday game is exception, if a backup player is involved in a Thursday game, must be set on that day prior to kickoff)

That's binding, as of the first games kickoff.