How good has Peyton Manning been? (1 Viewer)

[David Yudkin]

Through 9 seasons, Peyton Manning has AVERAGED 4176 passing yards and 30 TD passes per year. To put things into perspective, there have only been 11 QBs that have hit both of those numbers IN A SINGLE SEASON. Playing every game each year certainly has helped Manning's cause. Here are the other QBs to have seasons with 4176/30:

Dan Marino (three times)

Kurt Warner (twice)

Warren Moon (twice)

Brett Favre (twice)

Dan Fouts (twice)

Vinny Testaverde

Scott Mitchell

Jeff Garcia

Lynn Dickey

Daunte Culpepper

Steve Beuerlein

Favre as a starter has averaged 3833/27. Excluding the year Marino missed most of a season, he averaged 3759/25.

On a per game basis . . .

Manning 261/1.91

Favre 239/1.72

Marino 254/1.74

That includes two times when Manning played a single series in Week 17. Excluding those games pushes Manning to 265/1.94.

Marc Bulger has actually averaged more passing yards per game (270) but only 1.58 TD/gm.

 

[Banger]

ya, but he can't win the big game.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Career VBD

1047	Dan Marino928	Brett Favre771	Steve Young769	Randall Cunningham753	John Elway712	Peyton Manning

He's got a good chance to be in third place after this season on career VBD. Will be interesting to see if he catches Marino. Marino was at 794 after his 9th season.

 

[bostonfred]

Man, imagine what he could do if he had real receivers.

 

[PatsWillWin]

Man, imagine what he could do if he had real receivers.

 

[Iron Mike Tomczak]

Peyton is the great one, a modern Unitas.

 

[djcolts]

Man, imagine what he could do if he had real receivers.

Here's a starter's list of a 2006 NFL offense of where they were drafted. Who am I talking about (not that it is hard)? Why isn't he all-world with this talent?QB: 1st Overall

RB: 1st Round - Pick #12

WR1: 1st Round - Pick #27

WR2: 1st Round - Pick #29

WR3: 1st Round - Pick #19

TE: 2nd Round - Pick #4

Manning:

RB: Addai - 1st Round Pick #30

WR1: Harrison - 1st Round Pick #19

WR2: Wayne - 1st Round Pick #30

TE: Clark - 1st Round Pick #24

TE2/TE3/WR3: All 3 undrafted (Moorehead/Utecht/Fletcher)

 

[Sabertooth]

I would love to have seen how Favre would have done if Sharpe's career hadn't been so prematurely ended.

 

[MelKiperJr]

He's good, he's great, blah blah blah blah blah

 

[gump]

David - Interesting and good amo...thanks.

Has one game ever done more for one player?

 

[Yitbos69]

Man, imagine what he could do if he had real receivers.

Here's a starter's list of a 2006 NFL offense of where they were drafted. Who am I talking about (not that it is hard)? Why isn't he all-world with this talent?QB: 1st Overall

RB: 1st Round - Pick #12

WR1: 1st Round - Pick #27

WR2: 1st Round - Pick #29

WR3: 1st Round - Pick #19

TE: 2nd Round - Pick #4

Manning:

RB: Addai - 1st Round Pick #30

WR1: Harrison - 1st Round Pick #19

WR2: Wayne - 1st Round Pick #30

TE: Clark - 1st Round Pick #24

TE2/TE3/WR3: All 3 undrafted (Moorehead/Utecht/Fletcher)

Eli?

 

[djcolts]

Man, imagine what he could do if he had real receivers.

Here's a starter's list of a 2006 NFL offense of where they were drafted. Who am I talking about (not that it is hard)? Why isn't he all-world with this talent?QB: 1st Overall

RB: 1st Round - Pick #12

WR1: 1st Round - Pick #27

WR2: 1st Round - Pick #29

WR3: 1st Round - Pick #19

TE: 2nd Round - Pick #4

Manning:

RB: Addai - 1st Round Pick #30

WR1: Harrison - 1st Round Pick #19

WR2: Wayne - 1st Round Pick #30

TE: Clark - 1st Round Pick #24

TE2/TE3/WR3: All 3 undrafted (Moorehead/Utecht/Fletcher)

Eli?

 

[Rounders]

Man, imagine what he could do if he had real receivers.

Here's a starter's list of a 2006 NFL offense of where they were drafted. Who am I talking about (not that it is hard)? Why isn't he all-world with this talent?QB: 1st Overall

RB: 1st Round - Pick #12

WR1: 1st Round - Pick #27

WR2: 1st Round - Pick #29

WR3: 1st Round - Pick #19

TE: 2nd Round - Pick #4

Manning:

RB: Addai - 1st Round Pick #30

WR1: Harrison - 1st Round Pick #19

WR2: Wayne - 1st Round Pick #30

TE: Clark - 1st Round Pick #24

TE2/TE3/WR3: All 3 undrafted (Moorehead/Utecht/Fletcher)

Eli?

Leinart?

 

[djcolts]

Man, imagine what he could do if he had real receivers.

Here's a starter's list of a 2006 NFL offense of where they were drafted. Who am I talking about (not that it is hard)? Why isn't he all-world with this talent?QB: 1st Overall

RB: 1st Round - Pick #12

WR1: 1st Round - Pick #27

WR2: 1st Round - Pick #29

WR3: 1st Round - Pick #19

TE: 2nd Round - Pick #4

Manning:

RB: Addai - 1st Round Pick #30

WR1: Harrison - 1st Round Pick #19

WR2: Wayne - 1st Round Pick #30

TE: Clark - 1st Round Pick #24

TE2/TE3/WR3: All 3 undrafted (Moorehead/Utecht/Fletcher)

Eli?

Leinart?

- and he was a rookie, anyway, so he gets some slack.

 

[Da Guru]

I was a non-believer for a few years but Manning can`t be denied. The guy will be the greatest QB to ever play the game regardless of rings.

No one is more prepared to play "every" game. And to think that a guy like Rex Grossman sais he did not prepare for a late season game.

 

[Bushead]

Man, imagine what he could do if he had real receivers.

Here's a starter's list of a 2006 NFL offense of where they were drafted. Who am I talking about (not that it is hard)? Why isn't he all-world with this talent?QB: 1st Overall

RB: 1st Round - Pick #12

WR1: 1st Round - Pick #27

WR2: 1st Round - Pick #29

WR3: 1st Round - Pick #19

TE: 2nd Round - Pick #4

Manning:

RB: Addai - 1st Round Pick #30

WR1: Harrison - 1st Round Pick #19

WR2: Wayne - 1st Round Pick #30

TE: Clark - 1st Round Pick #24

TE2/TE3/WR3: All 3 undrafted (Moorehead/Utecht/Fletcher)

Carr/Texans?Edit to add: Vick is the answer

 

[BassNBrew]

Man, imagine what he could do if he had real receivers.

Here's a starter's list of a 2006 NFL offense of where they were drafted. Who am I talking about (not that it is hard)? Why isn't he all-world with this talent?QB: 1st Overall

RB: 1st Round - Pick #12

WR1: 1st Round - Pick #27

WR2: 1st Round - Pick #29

WR3: 1st Round - Pick #19

TE: 2nd Round - Pick #4

Manning:

RB: Addai - 1st Round Pick #30

WR1: Harrison - 1st Round Pick #19

WR2: Wayne - 1st Round Pick #30

TE: Clark - 1st Round Pick #24

TE2/TE3/WR3: All 3 undrafted (Moorehead/Utecht/Fletcher)

Carr

 

[hankey2mlh]

Man, imagine what he could do if he had real receivers.

Here's a starter's list of a 2006 NFL offense of where they were drafted. Who am I talking about (not that it is hard)? Why isn't he all-world with this talent?QB: 1st Overall

RB: 1st Round - Pick #12

WR1: 1st Round - Pick #27

WR2: 1st Round - Pick #29

WR3: 1st Round - Pick #19

TE: 2nd Round - Pick #4

Manning:

RB: Addai - 1st Round Pick #30

WR1: Harrison - 1st Round Pick #19

WR2: Wayne - 1st Round Pick #30

TE: Clark - 1st Round Pick #24

TE2/TE3/WR3: All 3 undrafted (Moorehead/Utecht/Fletcher)

Eli?

Leinart?

- and he was a rookie, anyway, so he gets some slack.

Vick

 

[harrycarey]

Man, imagine what he could do if he had real receivers.

Here's a starter's list of a 2006 NFL offense of where they were drafted. Who am I talking about (not that it is hard)? Why isn't he all-world with this talent?QB: 1st Overall

RB: 1st Round - Pick #12

WR1: 1st Round - Pick #27

WR2: 1st Round - Pick #29

WR3: 1st Round - Pick #19

TE: 2nd Round - Pick #4

Manning:

RB: Addai - 1st Round Pick #30

WR1: Harrison - 1st Round Pick #19

WR2: Wayne - 1st Round Pick #30

TE: Clark - 1st Round Pick #24

TE2/TE3/WR3: All 3 undrafted (Moorehead/Utecht/Fletcher)

Carr

I'm guessing Mike Vick

 

[djcolts]

Man, imagine what he could do if he had real receivers.

Here's a starter's list of a 2006 NFL offense of where they were drafted. Who am I talking about (not that it is hard)? Why isn't he all-world with this talent?QB: 1st Overall

RB: 1st Round - Pick #12

WR1: 1st Round - Pick #27

WR2: 1st Round - Pick #29

WR3: 1st Round - Pick #19

TE: 2nd Round - Pick #4

Manning:

RB: Addai - 1st Round Pick #30

WR1: Harrison - 1st Round Pick #19

WR2: Wayne - 1st Round Pick #30

TE: Clark - 1st Round Pick #24

TE2/TE3/WR3: All 3 undrafted (Moorehead/Utecht/Fletcher)

Carr

I'm guessing Mike Vick

You are a smart guy. It is Mike Vick. RB - Dunn, WR - Roddy White, Michael Jenkins and Ashley Lelie. TE - Crumpler.

 

[djcolts]

Man, imagine what he could do if he had real receivers.

Here's a starter's list of a 2006 NFL offense of where they were drafted. Who am I talking about (not that it is hard)? Why isn't he all-world with this talent?QB: 1st Overall

RB: 1st Round - Pick #12

WR1: 1st Round - Pick #27

WR2: 1st Round - Pick #29

WR3: 1st Round - Pick #19

TE: 2nd Round - Pick #4

Manning:

RB: Addai - 1st Round Pick #30

WR1: Harrison - 1st Round Pick #19

WR2: Wayne - 1st Round Pick #30

TE: Clark - 1st Round Pick #24

TE2/TE3/WR3: All 3 undrafted (Moorehead/Utecht/Fletcher)

Eli?

Leinart?

- and he was a rookie, anyway, so he gets some slack.

Vick

You're smart first (oops - 2nd. I can't keep up).

 

[H.K.]

Going by "averages" really is completely misleading in this scenario. When evaluating the facts, it becomes obvious that using the 30 Passing TD season as a metric should eliminate Marino from being mentioned in the same breath as true Champions like Favre and Manning.

Marino only threw for 30 or more TD's a paltry4 times in 17 seasons. He had two big years with 48 & 44 TD's which completely skew his numbers. After his fourth season, Marino only threw for 30 TD passes just once in his final thirteen seasons. Once in thirteen years?!?!?! (He broke 20 TD passes only once in his last 4 seasons, but people accuse Favre of hanging on too long )

The net result is there was less than a 24% chance Marino was going to have a 30+ TD season, so pretending its an average expected output from him is ludicrous.

On the other hand, Favre threw for 30 or more 8 times in only 15 seasons.

More often than not, Favre has been good for 30+ TD Passes in a season. Being a truly great QB, Favre performs at high level consistently. Throwing for 30+ is expected of him, simply because that is what he's done. The same can not be said of Marino.

Looking at the other side of the coin, Favre never had fewer than 18 TD passes in a season as a starter......Marino had three (excluding a fourth when he was hurt....again. Obviously Favre destroys any QB in durability, and really makes Marino look bad in this category, so I won't even go there).

Clearly, Favre>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Marino, so lets no longer insult Brett or Peyton by including Dan in these discussions going forward.

TIA

 

[dgreen]

On a per game basis . . .

Manning 261/1.91

Favre 239/1.72

Marino 254/1.04

Should be 1.74 for his career. It was 1.97 in his first 9 seasons.

 

[dgreen]

Clearly, Favre>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Marino

 

[bostonfred]

Vick is all world with his talent. He had more rush yards this year than Manning has had in his entire career.

 

[Sabertooth]

Vick is all world with his talent. He had more rush yards this year than Manning has had in his entire career.

He's a good runner. But then again, he's not playing running back.

 

[djcolts]

Vick is all world with his talent. He had more rush yards this year than Manning has had in his entire career.

All-world talent. Not even close to an all-world QB.

 

[dgreen]

Man, imagine what he could do if he had real receivers.

Here's a starter's list of a 2006 NFL offense of where they were drafted. Who am I talking about (not that it is hard)? Why isn't he all-world with this talent?QB: 1st Overall

RB: 1st Round - Pick #12

WR1: 1st Round - Pick #27

WR2: 1st Round - Pick #29

WR3: 1st Round - Pick #19

TE: 2nd Round - Pick #4

Manning:

RB: Addai - 1st Round Pick #30

WR1: Harrison - 1st Round Pick #19

WR2: Wayne - 1st Round Pick #30

TE: Clark - 1st Round Pick #24

TE2/TE3/WR3: All 3 undrafted (Moorehead/Utecht/Fletcher)

Carr

I'm guessing Mike Vick

You are a smart guy. It is Mike Vick. RB - Dunn, WR - Roddy White, Michael Jenkins and Ashley Lelie. TE - Crumpler.

So, you are on record that Roddy White, Michael Jenkins, and Ashley Lelie are good receivers?

 

[PatsWillWin]

Vick is all world with his talent. He had more rush yards this year than Manning has had in his entire career.

All-world talent. Not even close to an all-world QB.

Objection. Relevance.

 

[djcolts]

Man, imagine what he could do if he had real receivers.

Here's a starter's list of a 2006 NFL offense of where they were drafted. Who am I talking about (not that it is hard)? Why isn't he all-world with this talent?QB: 1st Overall

RB: 1st Round - Pick #12

WR1: 1st Round - Pick #27

WR2: 1st Round - Pick #29

WR3: 1st Round - Pick #19

TE: 2nd Round - Pick #4

Manning:

RB: Addai - 1st Round Pick #30

WR1: Harrison - 1st Round Pick #19

WR2: Wayne - 1st Round Pick #30

TE: Clark - 1st Round Pick #24

TE2/TE3/WR3: All 3 undrafted (Moorehead/Utecht/Fletcher)

Carr

I'm guessing Mike Vick

You are a smart guy. It is Mike Vick. RB - Dunn, WR - Roddy White, Michael Jenkins and Ashley Lelie. TE - Crumpler.

So, you are on record that Roddy White, Michael Jenkins, and Ashley Lelie are good receivers?

They have talent - that is what their draft positions show. Are they sucky because they are sucky, or because they aren't developed properly, or they haven't clicked with their QB? Who's to blame here?

 

[H.K.]

Vick is all world with his talent. He had more rush yards this year than Manning has had in his entire career.

Vick? Puh-lease. Check out these awesome career rushing stats for Dan Marino:Regular Season 0.29 YPC

But in the playoffs, he really stepped it up:

Postseason 0.06 YPC

 

[dgreen]

Man, imagine what he could do if he had real receivers.

Here's a starter's list of a 2006 NFL offense of where they were drafted. Who am I talking about (not that it is hard)? Why isn't he all-world with this talent?QB: 1st Overall

RB: 1st Round - Pick #12

WR1: 1st Round - Pick #27

WR2: 1st Round - Pick #29

WR3: 1st Round - Pick #19

TE: 2nd Round - Pick #4

Manning:

RB: Addai - 1st Round Pick #30

WR1: Harrison - 1st Round Pick #19

WR2: Wayne - 1st Round Pick #30

TE: Clark - 1st Round Pick #24

TE2/TE3/WR3: All 3 undrafted (Moorehead/Utecht/Fletcher)

Carr

I'm guessing Mike Vick

You are a smart guy. It is Mike Vick. RB - Dunn, WR - Roddy White, Michael Jenkins and Ashley Lelie. TE - Crumpler.

So, you are on record that Roddy White, Michael Jenkins, and Ashley Lelie are good receivers?

They have talent - that is what their draft positions show.

Their draft position shows nothing more than what one team thought about them at the time of the draft.

Are they sucky because they are sucky, or because they aren't developed properly, or they haven't clicked with their QB? Who's to blame here?

I don't know why they are sucky, but they are sucky. Or are they? You just said they have talent and the evidence of that is their draft position. So, which is it: are they sucky or not?

 

[David Yudkin]

On a per game basis . . .

Manning 261/1.91

Favre 239/1.72

Marino 254/1.04

:( Should be 1.74 for his career. It was 1.97 in his first 9 seasons.

Typo on my part. Fixed in the original post.

 

[bostonfred]

Vick 14,200 yards in his first 64 full games (I threw out his first season where he split time, and his first game back from the season he basically missed)

Brady 14,350 yards in his first 64 full games

McNabb 14,600 yards in his first 64 full games

Manning 16,800 yards in his first 64 full games

Palmer, with 10,893 yards in his first 46 full games, is on pace for numbers close to Manning.

Vick's numbers match up favorably with the elite quarterbacks in the league. It's not surprising at all that the guys who are ahead of the pace are the ones who have Harrison, Wayne, Clark, etc. and Chad Johnson, Housh, Henry, etc. It's only mildly surprising that castoff Ashley Lelie, second year player Roddy White, and third year player Michael Jenkins haven't contributed as much as Harrison (who was already in his third year when Manning arrived) or Chad Johsnon (who was in his fourth year when Palmer arrived) did for their respective quarterbacks.

 

[Case Ace]

Manning has a chance to be the greatest of all time. As of now, I'd probably put him at 3rd.

Montana

Elway

Manning

Marino

Unitas

 

[bostonfred]

They have talent - that is what their draft positions show. Are they sucky because they are sucky, or because they aren't developed properly, or they haven't clicked with their QB? Who's to blame here?

Well, with Lelie we have a bigger body of evidence, because he was pretty mediocre in Denver, and it was his first and only year in Atlanta, and he was playing WR3. Dunn was 27 when he arrived in Atlanta, and his receiving numbers steadily declined as he approached 32. Crumpler has significantly outperformed Dallas Clark, but it's hard to say whether he's as good because Crumpler is the #1 option in the Atlanta passing game, while Clark was the 5th leading receiver in Indy. Jenkins and Roddy White have only been in town for 2 and 3 years respectively. Manning (and Palmer) have never had to break in a #1 WR; they had Harrison and Chad Johnson in their third and fourth years, respectively, when they arrived. They both also have had the benefit of more offensive consistency, a better pass blocking line, and better running games. Which brings us around to the conversation we're NOT having. Which is that Carson Palmer is off to a similar pace to Manning over the same number of games. Is it that Palmer's that good? Or that he walked into an offense that was loaded with WR talent? I understand that it's easier to point to Vick, but as I showed above, Vick's actually on an elite QB pace so far. The better question is whether Palmer shows that Manning, while certainly a great quarterback, has put up these incredible numbers because of his receiving talent. And it certainly appears that he has.

 

[JohnnyU]

Peyton is good, Peyton is great, slide down a 10 foot razor blade into a pool of alcohol to anyone with Peyton hate.

Sorry, I know that was lame, but it was all that I could come up with at the moment.

Disclaimer: This post wasn't directed at the initial poster. There's some good information there. I was just having some fun.

 

[Sabertooth]

Peyton's good and now a champ just like Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson. You see how silly it is to base greatness on one game?

 

[Ghost Rider]

The better question is whether Palmer shows that Manning, while certainly a great quarterback, has put up these incredible numbers because of his receiving talent. And it certainly appears that he has.

Okay, but one could easily make the argument that Manning has had a huge hand in those receivers in being as good as they are. What did Brandon Stokely do before coming to Indy? And look what he did in 2004. Marcus Pollard has not been as productive without Manning (his numbers went way up when Manning arrived in Indy and have not been as good in Detroit). And Marvin Harrison wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire before Manning came to Indy.

 

[David Yudkin]

Which brings us around to the conversation we're NOT having. Which is that Carson Palmer is off to a better pace than Manning over the same number of games. Is it that Palmer's that good? Or that he walked into an offense that was loaded with WR talent? I understand that it's easier to point to Vick, but as I showed above, Vick's actually on an elite QB pace so far. The better question is whether Palmer shows that Manning, while certainly a great quarterback, has put up these incredible numbers because of his receiving talent. And it certainly appears that he has.

I'm not sure where you are getting Palmer > than Manning through 3 seasons. Palmer has averaged 2.34/1.7 through 3 years and Manning averaged 256/1.8 in his first 3 years.I'm not saying Palmer WON'T catch up to Manning in the near future, only that through an equal amount of seasons Manning is still ahead by a moderate amount. And technically, it's been FOUR seasons for Palmer since he sat his first year.From a fantasy perspective and using FBG scoring, here are the leaders through 3 seasons played:1 Peyton Manning 939.45 2 Jeff Garcia 935.90 3 Dan Marino 932.95 4 Aaron Brooks 759.30 5 Donovan McNabb qb 751.70 6 Marc Bulger 731.15 7 Jim Kelly 716.15 8 Drew Bledsoe 696.80 9 Joe Namath 681.80 10 Ben Roethlisberger 658.05 With Manning now through 9 seasons, here's the totals for 9 year QBs . . .1 Peyton Manning 2988.20 2 Dan Marino 2724.60 3 Brett Favre 2549.20 4 Warren Moon 2324.60 5 Jim Kelly 2263.65 6 John Elway 2189.50 7 Fran Tarkenton 2154.20 8 Steve McNair 2100.65 9 Jake Plummer 2085.25 10 Drew Bledsoe 2076.15

 

[Ben Stiller]

Interesting comparison of the SB XL winning QB to SB XLI winning QB. Most assume the Steelers won in spite of Ben and the Colts won because of Manning.

Each won 4 playoff games.

QB Rating- Roethlisberger 101.7, Manning 70.5

YPA- Roethlisberger 8.6, Manning 6.8

TD Passes- Roethlisberger 7, Manning 3

INT- Roethlisberger 3, Manning 7

 

[djcolts]

They have talent - that is what their draft positions show. Are they sucky because they are sucky, or because they aren't developed properly, or they haven't clicked with their QB? Who's to blame here?

Well, with Lelie we have a bigger body of evidence, because he was pretty mediocre in Denver, and it was his first and only year in Atlanta, and he was playing WR3. Dunn was 27 when he arrived in Atlanta, and his receiving numbers steadily declined as he approached 32. Crumpler has significantly outperformed Dallas Clark, but it's hard to say whether he's as good because Crumpler is the #1 option in the Atlanta passing game, while Clark was the 5th leading receiver in Indy. Jenkins and Roddy White have only been in town for 2 and 3 years respectively. Manning (and Palmer) have never had to break in a #1 WR; they had Harrison and Chad Johnson in their third and fourth years, respectively, when they arrived. They both also have had the benefit of more offensive consistency, a better pass blocking line, and better running games. Which brings us around to the conversation we're NOT having. Which is that Carson Palmer is off to a similar pace to Manning over the same number of games. Is it that Palmer's that good? Or that he walked into an offense that was loaded with WR talent? I understand that it's easier to point to Vick, but as I showed above, Vick's actually on an elite QB pace so far. The better question is whether Palmer shows that Manning, while certainly a great quarterback, has put up these incredible numbers because of his receiving talent. And it certainly appears that he has.

I think whatever point that can be made by stats one can make. What is the best measurement - yards/game? Yards/seasons played? Passer rating? Yards/attempt? Winning percentage as a starter? How many extra rushing yards is worth a lower passer rating/completion percentage? How do you compare a player that starts immediately to a player that sits on the bench for a year or two - especialy using a "first X starts" argument? I'm sure someone can spin things so that Jon Kitna is an elite QB if he really wanted to put an effort into it using stats (I don't).

 

[djcolts]

Interesting comparison of the SB XL winning QB to SB XLI winning QB. Most assume the Steelers won in spite of Ben and the Colts won because of Manning.

Each won 4 playoff games.

QB Rating- Roethlisberger 101.7, Manning 70.5

YPA- Roethlisberger 8.6, Manning 6.8

TD Passes- Roethlisberger 7, Manning 3

INT- Roethlisberger 3, Manning 7

1. Most astute fans think the Colts won the Super Bowl because their defense suddenly played great and their running game came alive. 2. Teams played the 2005 Steelers to stop their running game. Teams played the 2006 Colts to stop their deep passing game. The fact that the 2005 Steelers were effective passing the ball and the 2006 Colts were effective running the ball in their postseason runs had a lot to do with the way the opposing defenses played them.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Going by "averages" really is completely misleading in this scenario. When evaluating the facts, it becomes obvious that using the 30 Passing TD season as a metric should eliminate Marino from being mentioned in the same breath as true Champions like Favre and Manning.

Marino only threw for 30 or more TD's a paltry4 times in 17 seasons. He had two big years with 48 & 44 TD's which completely skew his numbers. After his fourth season, Marino only threw for 30 TD passes just once in his final thirteen seasons. Once in thirteen years?!?!?! (He broke 20 TD passes only once in his last 4 seasons, but people accuse Favre of hanging on too long )

The net result is there was less than a 24% chance Marino was going to have a 30+ TD season, so pretending its an average expected output from him is ludicrous.

On the other hand, Favre threw for 30 or more 8 times in only 15 seasons.

More often than not, Favre has been good for 30+ TD Passes in a season. Being a truly great QB, Favre performs at high level consistently. Throwing for 30+ is expected of him, simply because that is what he's done. The same can not be said of Marino.

Looking at the other side of the coin, Favre never had fewer than 18 TD passes in a season as a starter......Marino had three (excluding a fourth when he was hurt....again. Obviously Favre destroys any QB in durability, and really makes Marino look bad in this category, so I won't even go there).

Clearly, Favre>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Marino, so lets no longer insult Brett or Peyton by including Dan in these discussions going forward.

TIA

HK, it is so clear that you are a Marino hater that your posts are worthless. You sound like Michael Irvin backing TO even though everything else points in a different direction. Insult, dud you are out of your mind. You are teh same person that said Manning doesn't deserve to be in any circles when talking about greatness. Now, he wins a SB without performing at his normal level (BECAUSE HIS TEAM PLAYED WELL)and now he mysteriously is great? HK your credibility is shot and you get a HUGE

 

[kevinray]

Man, imagine what he could do if he had real receivers.

Here's a starter's list of a 2006 NFL offense of where they were drafted. Who am I talking about (not that it is hard)? Why isn't he all-world with this talent?QB: 1st Overall

RB: 1st Round - Pick #12

WR1: 1st Round - Pick #27

WR2: 1st Round - Pick #29

WR3: 1st Round - Pick #19

TE: 2nd Round - Pick #4

Manning:

RB: Addai - 1st Round Pick #30

WR1: Harrison - 1st Round Pick #19

WR2: Wayne - 1st Round Pick #30

TE: Clark - 1st Round Pick #24

TE2/TE3/WR3: All 3 undrafted (Moorehead/Utecht/Fletcher)

Eli?

Leinart?

- and he was a rookie, anyway, so he gets some slack.

Leftwich.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Which brings us around to the conversation we're NOT having. Which is that Carson Palmer is off to a better pace than Manning over the same number of games. Is it that Palmer's that good? Or that he walked into an offense that was loaded with WR talent? I understand that it's easier to point to Vick, but as I showed above, Vick's actually on an elite QB pace so far. The better question is whether Palmer shows that Manning, while certainly a great quarterback, has put up these incredible numbers because of his receiving talent. And it certainly appears that he has.

I'm not sure where you are getting Palmer > than Manning through 3 seasons. Palmer has averaged 2.34/1.7 through 3 years and Manning averaged 256/1.8 in his first 3 years.I'm not saying Palmer WON'T catch up to Manning in the near future, only that through an equal amount of seasons Manning is still ahead by a moderate amount. And technically, it's been FOUR seasons for Palmer since he sat his first year.From a fantasy perspective and using FBG scoring, here are the leaders through 3 seasons played:1 Peyton Manning 939.45 2 Jeff Garcia 935.90 3 Dan Marino 932.95 4 Aaron Brooks 759.30 5 Donovan McNabb qb 751.70 6 Marc Bulger 731.15 7 Jim Kelly 716.15 8 Drew Bledsoe 696.80 9 Joe Namath 681.80 10 Ben Roethlisberger 658.05 With Manning now through 9 seasons, here's the totals for 9 year QBs . . .1 Peyton Manning 2988.20 2 Dan Marino 2724.60 3 Brett Favre 2549.20 4 Warren Moon 2324.60 5 Jim Kelly 2263.65 6 John Elway 2189.50 7 Fran Tarkenton 2154.20 8 Steve McNair 2100.65 9 Jake Plummer 2085.25 10 Drew Bledsoe 2076.15

VBD through 9 seasons (only post-merger seasons included):

794	Dan Marino764	Brett Favre712	Peyton Manning635	Randall Cunningham580	Roger Staubach562	Fran Tarkenton527	Joe Montana476	Daunte Culpepper426	Warren Moon360	John Elway359	Boomer Esiason350	Dan Fouts343	Ken Anderson334	Jim Kelly328	Jim Everett324	Steve Young323	Bert Jones313	Steve Grogan312	Terry Bradshaw285	Neil Lomax

 

[bostonfred]

The better question is whether Palmer shows that Manning, while certainly a great quarterback, has put up these incredible numbers because of his receiving talent. And it certainly appears that he has.

Okay, but one could easily make the argument that Manning has had a huge hand in those receivers in being as good as they are. What did Brandon Stokely do before coming to Indy? And look what he did in 2004. Marcus Pollard has not been as productive without Manning (his numbers went way up when Manning arrived in Indy and have not been as good in Detroit). And Marvin Harrison wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire before Manning came to Indy.

I don't disagree that Manning has increased Harrison's numbers. McNabb helped Owens' numbers, too. And Owens returned the favor by boosting McNabb to the best year of his career. His yards went up by about 800, in one fewer game than he'd player the prior year. Then Owens helped Tony freaking Romo make a pro bowl. There's no question that having a top receiver will add a significant number of yards to a quarterback's performance. We can debate how good they are, but there's no question that Harrison and Wayne and Clark and Addai and Glenn and Saturday and Edgerrin and Pollard and even Stokley as a WR3 each helped Manning's numbers significantly.

 

[David Yudkin]

VBD through 9 seasons (only post-merger seasons included):

Here's the thing. Manning is not in control of how deep the QB talent pool is. There are more high scoring fantasy QBs now than when Marino and Favre broke on to the scene. The baseline for the QB12 in Marino's first 9 years was 220 points vs. 253 for Manning.

 

[Chase Stuart]

VBD through 9 seasons (only post-merger seasons included):

Here's the thing. Manning is not in control of how deep the QB talent pool is. There are more high scoring fantasy QBs now than when Marino and Favre broke on to the scene. The baseline for the QB12 in Marino's first 9 years was 220 points vs. 253 for Manning.

Are you implying that FF points is a better tool to compare players from different eras than VBD points?I know you don't think that, but I can't read anything else into your statement but that.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Modified VBD through 9 seasons (post-merger seasons only).

765 Dan Marino712 Peyton Manning562 Brett Favre516 Fran Tarkenton380 Warren Moon334 Jim Kelly283 Roger Staubach236 John Elway189 Ken Anderson131 Joe Montana121 Terry Bradshaw76 Jim Hart70 Boomer Esiason64 Dan Fouts62 Archie Manning62 Carson Palmer55 Randall Cunningham42 Neil Lomax20 Jim Everett15 Donovan McNabbHere's the modification. Earlier VBD totals give a QB zero points for every year he was ranked 12th or worse. This VBD system gives a QB the accurate number of negative points. So if a QB scores 100 points and the baseline that year was 200, they get -100 instead of 0.Not saying one is better than the other, but just thought I'd include both. Someone like Cunningham drops significantly, because he barely played in 3 of his first 9 years (and gets hurt more than if he got a 0 in those years).