What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

How should we respond if Russia invades the Ukraine? (1 Viewer)

If there is an invasion Russia will be playing right into the American MICs hands. They recognize that the American people are pretty much over the whole "let's bomb some brown people" thing and they need new bogeymen. That's why you got the ludicrous Chinese hyper missile hand wringing when we not only have had that tech for years we've already been developing the defense against it because despite the breathless OMGs of the media it is defensible.

The Pentagon has made it clear they want to scare up a new cold war by making it about near peers. That means Russia and China. Everything they can do to keep the good times going.

None for me, thanks.

 
Ukraine isn't in our vital national interest, so it's not worth fighting for.  An invasion would certainly harm relations.  Biden will talk tough - maybe even a good Cornpop story will come out of it.  We'll implement sanctions and life will go on.

 
Ukraine isn't in our vital national interest, so it's not worth fighting for.  An invasion would certainly harm relations.  Biden will talk tough - maybe even a good Cornpop story will come out of it.  We'll implement sanctions and life will go on.

 
Other than @Snotbubbles everyone here seems to be on the same page. Personally I could never sanction going to war to defend Ukraine- I could for Taiwan or South Korea. 
 

But I also think we should do something. 

 
Fake Russian lie?  No…sanctions were for their actual actions which are not disputed.  They took measures against our election…that isn’t fake…its fact.
Sorry sho.  You're opinion isn't credible.   They didn't care who won.   They wanted a mess.  And the democrats paid for the mess.   With cash.

 
We are pledged to the defense of Taiwan are we not? We are not pledged to the defense of Ukraine. 
I don’t think China will ever invade Taiwan much as they might threaten to do so. It’s a difficult military problem. Taiwan is an island,  very well armed. Even if we never got involved, Taiwan could hold off an invasion for a long time. Of course China would overwhelm them in the end but the cost in blood and treasure would be staggering. It would be the equivalent of us trying to invade Cuba. 
Ukraine is a wholly different matter. It’s flat and we all know the history: Russia will have no problem at all invading if they want to. 
We are not pledged.   We are ambiguous.

 
Other than @Snotbubbles everyone here seems to be on the same page. Personally I could never sanction going to war to defend Ukraine- I could for Taiwan or South Korea. 
 

But I also think we should do something. 
Cancel the gas pipeline into germany. 

Quadruple oil/gas drilling for oil on federal lands.   ¹/² fees   reinstate keystone pipeline.   Tell russia Biden goal is sub $20 a barrel next 4 years.     

Putin would get the bullet.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sorry sho.  You're opinion isn't credible.   They didn't care who won.   They wanted a mess.  And the democrats paid for the mess.   With cash.
There is another thread for this.  But if you want to question my credibility…read what was written.  I didn’t say a thing about caring who won.  That wasn’t the discussion.  It was people denying they even did anything…which is not disputable.  Its fact. It happened.  If you don’t think it did…please bring something of substance to refute it…but find another thread to do so.  My credibility on this matter remains intact.

 
It’s a simple question. Unfortunately the answer is not so simple. I have no idea. 
Hopefully we can keep this from becoming a bash Biden or bash Trump thread. Trying to assign blame isn’t really helpful. What do we do now? 
If Trump is leading the Russian invasion, shirtless with Putin, may we then assign blame? I’ll hold off until then, just wondering though. 
 

For the record I want the US to stay out of anything like this. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:
We are pledged to the defense of Taiwan are we not? We are not pledged to the defense of Ukraine. 
 


More complicated than that. Short answer is no. Google "Taiwan Strategic Ambiguity"

And regarding the second part, we did give "assurances" with the Budapest Memorandum. Not a pledge. Pledge is a strong word. Russia has obviously violated this Memorandum.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Why would Russia do it the old fashioned way?

Invest in a puppet, get him elected, sow internal division while he refuses to criticize Putin and make the country lose face on the international stage. 

Alternatively, pick off region by region. Weakest at a time. 

 
There are greater sanctions the US could apply. Another level of sanctions that could be administered. For example, cutting Russia off from SWIFT (Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication) would likely be on the table, although this would be messy and costly for everyone (not to mention, US can't do this unilaterally). Russia has worked on strategies and systems (namely: SPFS) to mitigate the effects. Debatable how effective it would be at mitigating the effects of no longer having access to SWIFT (likely not very). Cutting Russia off from SWIFT would be a severe financial consequence and would likely be an option if Russia follows through here. This has been considered before. Medvedev said in 2019 that cutting Russia off SWIFT would effectively amount to a “declaration of war.”

I would imagine Russia would move closer to China economically if they were cut off from SWIFT. There are further ramifications here that may not be optimal so there are more things that must be considered. 

Difficult to see a scenario in which NATO meets Russia on the battlefield. Ukraine is stronger militarily now than in 2014, so this wouldn't be a walk in the park for Russia (Russia would obviously be victorious at the end of it considering their military might, but the calculus has changed since 2014 in terms of cost). In fact, if this was ultimately Russia's goal, they should've done it in 2014 when Ukraine was weaker militarily. Cost of doing so would have been far less since Ukraine's military was weaker then. The fact they did not leads one to have a reasonable idea of their motivations.

Russia needs to respect international boundaries and rules. Not much happens in a vacuum. Beijing is keeping tabs on this. 

Away I go from the cesspool of the Politics subforum........

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Strongly disagree.  (and them invading the Ukraine would not be a “had to” situation for us)

You think that’s how we’d respond if they started bombing DC due to us taking an action they didn’t approve of?   I think not.  It would be the end of the world as we know it.   


If we invaded Canada or Mexico I would expect the rest of the World to do more than just sanction the US.

 
If there is an invasion Russia will be playing right into the American MICs hands. They recognize that the American people are pretty much over the whole "let's bomb some brown people" thing and they need new bogeymen. That's why you got the ludicrous Chinese hyper missile hand wringing when we not only have had that tech for years we've already been developing the defense against it because despite the breathless OMGs of the media it is defensible.

The Pentagon has made it clear they want to scare up a new cold war by making it about near peers. That means Russia and China. Everything they can do to keep the good times going.

None for me, thanks.
This makes sense.  Since we all pretty much agree this isn't something to involve the military in then we have nothing left but to make it about Biden/Trump 🤣

On that point my observation would be that 1) It's hard not to believe that the Afghanistan clown show hasn't emboldened our enemies. 2) I think countries like Russia would be MUCH less likely to pull #### like this with Trump in office...for better or worse he's not someone to play Chicken with (see Soleimani attack which at the time many were concerned was a major escalation/risk).

 
This makes sense.  Since we all pretty much agree this isn't something to involve the military in then we have nothing left but to make it about Biden/Trump 🤣

On that point my observation would be that 1) It's hard not to believe that the Afghanistan clown show hasn't emboldened our enemies. 2) I think countries like Russia would be MUCH less likely to pull #### like this with Trump in office...for better or worse he's not someone to play Chicken with (see Soleimani attack which at the time many were concerned was a major escalation/risk).
Everyone seems to forget the Russians got their butts kicked in Afghanistan first. It isn't called the graveyard of empires for nothing. I'm not sure anyone thinks that what happened there makes us particularly weak.

 
Everyone seems to forget the Russians got their butts kicked in Afghanistan first. It isn't called the graveyard of empires for nothing. I'm not sure anyone thinks that what happened there makes us particularly weak.
Yes, there is validity to this but the situations are totally different.  We actually held Afghanistan which projected strength (even it was dumb af strength).  But I don't think its possible to not see a change in administrations and then the execution of a plan that displayed terrible military decisioning and management, sowing doubt then in our (particularly said administration with the black eye) willingness to get involved again in anything.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Unfortunately, Europe is too reliant on Russian oil.  And their reliance has been increasing.  

Unless the US and Europe act preemptively, and build their troops in the region at a close rate to Russia's, then all they would be able to do after the fact is scold Russia publicly and put up some sanctions.

 
. 2) I think countries like Russia would be MUCH less likely to pull #### like this with Trump in office...for better or worse he's not someone to play Chicken with (see Soleimani attack which at the time many were concerned was a major escalation/risk).
Donald Trump was the most isolationist President in American history, a man who consistently threatened to pull us out of NATO, (and who reportedly would have done so immediately at the start of his second term.) He was also a man who, rather oddly, agreed with Putin at every instance. So based on all of this, I have to strongly disagree with you. 

 
Other than @Snotbubbles everyone here seems to be on the same page. Personally I could never sanction going to war to defend Ukraine- I could for Taiwan or South Korea. 
 

But I also think we should do something. 
I think the only country that Biden would ever defend is Israel.  I don’t see the need ever to defend South Korea, I don’t think rocket man will ever attack, Taiwan will eventually become part of China.  Russia will eventually make a move on Ukraine, but again we will do nothing but scold Russia.

 
The thing I am concerned about is with Bidens sinking approval rating he will try to make a stand and power play against Russia to boost his weak image at home and abroad.

Still hoping this is more of Russia putting out a test ballon to see what the responses might be,

 
I think the only country that Biden would ever defend is Israel.  I don’t see the need ever to defend South Korea, I don’t think rocket man will ever attack, Taiwan will eventually become part of China.  Russia will eventually make a move on Ukraine, but again we will do nothing but scold Russia.
We have never used our military to defend Israel, or even threatened to do so. 

 
There are greater sanctions the US could apply. Another level of sanctions that could be administered. For example, cutting Russia off from SWIFT (Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication) would likely be on the table, although this would be messy and costly for everyone (not to mention, US can't do this unilaterally). Russia has worked on strategies and systems (namely: SPFS) to mitigate the effects. Debatable how effective it would be at mitigating the effects of no longer having access to SWIFT (likely not very). Cutting Russia off from SWIFT would be a severe financial consequence and would likely be an option if Russia follows through here. This has been considered before. Medvedev said in 2019 that cutting Russia off SWIFT would effectively amount to a “declaration of war.”

I would imagine Russia would move closer to China economically if they were cut off from SWIFT. There are further ramifications here that may not be optimal so there are more things that must be considered. 

Difficult to see a scenario in which NATO meets Russia on the battlefield. Ukraine is stronger militarily now than in 2014, so this wouldn't be a walk in the park for Russia (Russia would obviously be victorious at the end of it considering their military might, but the calculus has changed since 2014 in terms of cost). In fact, if this was ultimately Russia's goal, they should've done it in 2014 when Ukraine was weaker militarily. Cost of doing so would have been far less since Ukraine's military was weaker then. The fact they did not leads one to have a reasonable idea of their motivations.

Russia needs to respect international boundaries and rules. Not much happens in a vacuum. Beijing is keeping tabs on this. 

Away I go from the cesspool of the Politics subforum........
I appreciate the info you’ve provided and I hope you stick around. 

 
Why would Russia do it the old fashioned way?

Invest in a puppet, get him elected, sow internal division while he refuses to criticize Putin and make the country lose face on the international stage. 

Alternatively, pick off region by region. Weakest at a time. 
This post makes me want to ask a serious question: WHY is Putin doing this? What does Russia gain by invading Ukraine? 

 
Donald Trump was the most isolationist President in American history, a man who consistently threatened to pull us out of NATO, (and who reportedly would have done so immediately at the start of his second term.) He was also a man who, rather oddly, agreed with Putin at every instance. So based on all of this, I have to strongly disagree with you. 
Your disagreement is misdirected.

For Donald Trump threats were how he negotiated, and he was "negotiating" with NATO.  I'm not going to debate here how productive of a tactic that is (has its place, also has downsides) but all you are submitting is evidence that he DID NOT do what you are concerned about (pulling out of NATO) and using hypotheticals (what he would have done) as evidence.

Regardless, I don't care if he was an isolationist or not, he was unpredictable and demonstrated with action that he was willing to make significant military moves that carry risk and may not be internationally supported.  Yes...that makes the opposition think twice or probably four times before doing anything.

 
Your disagreement is misdirected.

For Donald Trump threats were how he negotiated, and he was "negotiating" with NATO.  I'm not going to debate here how productive of a tactic that is (has its place, also has downsides) but all you are submitting is evidence that he DID NOT do what you are concerned about (pulling out of NATO) and using hypotheticals (what he would have done) as evidence.

Regardless, I don't care if he was an isolationist or not, he was unpredictable and demonstrated with action that he was willing to make significant military moves that carry risk and may not be internationally supported.  Yes...that makes the opposition think twice or probably four times before doing anything.
I think your point is a good one, but I still disagree with it in terms of how it relates to this particular issue. 

 
Food?

The history book on the shelf is always repeating itself.
Yes, Ukraine has always been considered one of the world’s greatest bread baskets. 
Which only goes to show, in case anyone really needs to learn it, just how terrible communism really is. The Soviet Union owned Ukraine for decades and they still couldn’t feed themselves. 

 
Yes, Ukraine has always been considered one of the world’s greatest bread baskets. 
Which only goes to show, in case anyone really needs to learn it, just how terrible communism really is. The Soviet Union owned Ukraine for decades and they still couldn’t feed themselves. 
I think the Soviets ate quite well,  it was the Ukrainians that lost 4 million to starvation.

 
We have never used our military to defend Israel, or even threatened to do so. 
No need to threatened anyone, or use our military the world knows Israel is the prized Jew of America.  No one, I repeat no one is able to purchase our best defense systems like Israel can.  We also train their fighter pilots to be the best in the world.  You may want to check Israel’s military purchases from us.

 
No need to threatened anyone, or use our military the world knows Israel is the prized Jew of America.  No one, I repeat no one is able to purchase our best defense systems like Israel can.  We also train their fighter pilots to be the best in the world.  You may want to check Israel’s military purchases from us.
The prized Jew of America? I always thought I was the prized Jew of America 

 
I think the Soviets ate quite well,  it was the Ukrainians that lost 4 million to starvation.
Actually…they didn’t. The Ukrainians lost millions (it may have been more than 4, perhaps up to 10?) and the Russian Soviets STILL couldn’t feed themselves. 

 
No need to threatened anyone, or use our military the world knows Israel is the prized Jew of America.  No one, I repeat no one is able to purchase our best defense systems like Israel can.  We also train their fighter pilots to be the best in the world.  You may want to check Israel’s military purchases from us.
Pretty sure Saudi can buy whatever they want and I can tell you we also train their pilots. Although for some reasons the Saudis just aren't that great at it. But when you are bombing civilians you can be an average pilot I guess

 
Fake Russian lie?  No…sanctions were for their actual actions which are not disputed.  They took measures against our election…that isn’t fake…its fact.
I guess in the sense that our CIA has an interest in everyone else's elections around the world, you can call this a "fact." I'm sure China took measures as well as a dozen other countries against our elections. Probably some allies. 

 
As for the Ukraine, it's a shame we got to this point but there's nothing we can really do. What leverage do we have to stop Russia from doing it? They know we're not going to go in with our military to defend it. There's nothing in the Ukraine for us to defend strategically. The only thing stopping it was the threat of US imposing meaningful sanctions against them. That's not going to happen.

Sorry Ukraine. You're going back to the soviets unfortunately. 

 
Your disagreement is misdirected.

For Donald Trump threats were how he negotiated, and he was "negotiating" with NATO.  I'm not going to debate here how productive of a tactic that is (has its place, also has downsides) but all you are submitting is evidence that he DID NOT do what you are concerned about (pulling out of NATO) and using hypotheticals (what he would have done) as evidence.

Regardless, I don't care if he was an isolationist or not, he was unpredictable and demonstrated with action that he was willing to make significant military moves that carry risk and may not be internationally supported.  Yes...that makes the opposition think twice or probably four times before doing anything.
As further proof, China and Russia have gotten much more aggressive with Biden in office.  I guess some might consider it coincidental timing, I tend to think there aren't many coincidences when it comes to the military aspirations of such countries.

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top