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HOW TO GET TO HEAVEN WHEN YOU DIE! Read This First Post, THEN Q & A Discussion! ASK QUESTIONS HERE! (1 Viewer)

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He made that comparison.  

.
@BobbyLayne can clarify if he wants, but I really don't think that's what he's saying. He's saying that he doesn't understand how subways work, yet he still believes/knows/understands that they do work. He's comparing that with his lack of knowledge about God (or maybe more specifically, God's love) and his belief/knowledge/understanding that God does love him. That's really different than saying "I don't understand subways, therefore I believe in God." It's more, "I don't understand X, yet I believe in X" instead of your interpretation of "I don't understand X, so I believe in Y." That's at least what I got from his post.

 
@BobbyLayne can clarify if he wants, but I really don't think that's what he's saying. He's saying that he doesn't understand how subways work, yet he still believes/knows/understands that they do work. He's comparing that with his lack of knowledge about God (or maybe more specifically, God's love) and his belief/knowledge/understanding that God does love him. That's really different than saying "I don't understand subways, therefore I believe in God." It's more, "I don't understand X, yet I believe in X" instead of your interpretation of "I don't understand X, so I believe in Y." That's at least what I got from his post.
The only person that has said the bold is you.  

 
@BobbyLayne can clarify if he wants, but I really don't think that's what he's saying. He's saying that he doesn't understand how subways work, yet he still believes/knows/understands that they do work. He's comparing that with his lack of knowledge about God (or maybe more specifically, God's love) and his belief/knowledge/understanding that God does love him. That's really different than saying "I don't understand subways, therefore I believe in God." It's more, "I don't understand X, yet I believe in X" instead of your interpretation of "I don't understand X, so I believe in Y." That's at least what I got from his post.
Actually, it's I believe in X, yet I don't understand X. 

Nobody questions the existence of subways. 

 
Actually, it's I believe in X, yet I don't understand X. 
True, believing in the existence probably isn't what he was getting at. Probably more about accepting it works or having faith that it will get him to where he wants to go, or something like that, despite not knowing how it works.

Nobody questions the existence of subways. 
7.5 billion people on this Earth. I guarantee there's someone out there who questions the existence of subways.

 
True, believing in the existence probably isn't what he was getting at. Probably more about accepting it works or having faith that it will get him to where he wants to go, or something like that, despite not knowing how it works.

7.5 billion people on this Earth. I guarantee there's someone out there who questions the existence of subways.
What he was getting at is this - 

I believe in X, yet I don't understand X, and that's okay because I don't understand Y, yet I believe in Y.

What tonydead took issue with is that the above insinuates similarity between X and Y, when in this application of the above it is comparing something imaginary to something physical. Hence why tonydead said "Boggles my mind that people use their own lack of understanding of simple physics to justify their belief in imaginary beings." And I agree, it boggles my mind too.  

 
God loves you and He is for you.

Somehow, the soul, spirit, heart, conscience, mind, psychology are all connected and interrelated. 

I don't understand how exactly. Does anyone? Does it matter?

I don't understand, precisely, how the subway works. I mean I studied basic electricity and electronics decades ago so I have a framework of understanding. But I take most of it in faith. It works. That's enough.

The card ? reader works. I don't know exactly how the info is stored or read. I have a basic understanding, but nowhere near mastery. That does not prevent me from enjoying it every day.

God loves you and is for you. There's a lot of mystery in those simple words. I don't understand all of it. But it works. He shows up every day.

He speaks to us through his word, through others, and we see evidence of the Holy Spirit working in transforming lives and renewing hearts. Jesus is alive and we are seeing the Spirit poured out.

God is for you.
WAT

 
I know I'm late to the discussion, and haven't read the whole thread, but has there been any discussion of the numerous accounts of people who have experienced life after death, and how eerily similar their experiences have been, many of whom were not religious?

I'm not a fan of religion in general, and have my doubts about "God," but my grandfather had a crazy out-of-body experience when he had a massive heart-attack.  Drifted through the hospital wall, was in darkness but felt safe, saw the light, spoke with his deceased mom and brother, etc.  

Is their some scientific/physiological thing that explains these occurrences?

 
I know I'm late to the discussion, and haven't read the whole thread, but has there been any discussion of the numerous accounts of people who have experienced life after death, and how eerily similar their experiences have been, many of whom were not religious?

I'm not a fan of religion in general, and have my doubts about "God," but my grandfather had a crazy out-of-body experience when he had a massive heart-attack.  Drifted through the hospital wall, was in darkness but felt safe, saw the light, spoke with his deceased mom and brother, etc.  

Is their some scientific/physiological thing that explains these occurrences?
The mind dreams a lot. 

 
Wrong answer.  Doesn't explain why so many people have experienced nearly the same thing.

I was looking for more of a scientific answer, since it seems most non-believers like to rely on science to justify their ridicule of the believers.
If the common portrayal of dying, heaven is a bright light, floating above ones body, and seeing deceased loved ones, etc., it's not surprising when the brain goes there as it becomes starved of oxygen.

 
If you need more detail, read this.
Interesting and thanks.  The study indicated that while in a lucid dream state some of the volunteers were able to emulate life-after-death experiences, but only in a dream state.  They said nothing about being able to interact with the real world.  My grandfather was basically dead, but when he came out of his body during open-heart surgery he could see everyone in the room.  In fact, a few days later he greeted his surgeon by his name, which shocked the surgeon because they had never met face-to-face.

 
Interesting and thanks.  The study indicated that while in a lucid dream state some of the volunteers were able to emulate life-after-death experiences, but only in a dream state.  
There's a reason for that. But I'm pretty sure you don't want to hear it. 

They said nothing about being able to interact with the real world.  My grandfather was basically dead, but when he came out of his body during open-heart surgery he could see everyone in the room.  In fact, a few days later he greeted his surgeon by his name, which shocked the surgeon because they had never met face-to-face.
Well, I would hope the surgeon was in the operating room with your grandfather. And patients can hear what's happening while under anesthesia. He probably heard others call him Dr [insert his name].

 
I know I'm late to the discussion, and haven't read the whole thread, but has there been any discussion of the numerous accounts of people who have experienced life after death, and how eerily similar their experiences have been, many of whom were not religious?

I'm not a fan of religion in general, and have my doubts about "God," but my grandfather had a crazy out-of-body experience when he had a massive heart-attack.  Drifted through the hospital wall, was in darkness but felt safe, saw the light, spoke with his deceased mom and brother, etc.  

Is their some scientific/physiological thing that explains these occurrences?
There is a lot of research in this area, not surprisingly there isn't a consensus.

The hole in the logic is that these experiences aren't exclusive to a single religion. Nor religion at all.

Christians, Hindus, Muslims, atheists... these experiences don't seem to answer any questions regarding the existence of gods - much less the existence of any particular god.

 
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There's a reason for that. But I'm pretty sure you don't want to hear it. 

Well, I would hope the surgeon was in the operating room with your grandfather. And patients can hear what's happening while under anesthesia. He probably heard others call him Dr [insert his name].
I am interested to hear it, just trying to educate myself a bit. Like I said, I'm not resolute in my opinions and beliefs.

My grandfather may have subconsciously heard the doctors name during surgery, but that doesn't explain how days later he recognized the doctor when he walked in unannounced to his room for a checkup. 

 
Buttonhook said:
I am interested to hear it, just trying to educate myself a bit. Like I said, I'm not resolute in my opinions and beliefs.

My grandfather may have subconsciously heard the doctors name during surgery, but that doesn't explain how days later he recognized the doctor when he walked in unannounced to his room for a checkup. 
Awareness, as discussed in the article I linked, includes both hearing and sight. Sometimes they even feel pain. Taste and smell are part of awareness too. 

 
Just as in the vivid dreams comparison, I'm not sure I'm buying the correlation with out-of-body experiences and anesthetics.  Awareness during surgery is generally caused because the anesthetic is not administered correctly and that person is not totally knocked out.  Which is not the same as someone who is totally knocked out and basically dead (no heartbeat), but only begins to recognize things around them after they (claimed to) have left their body. 

I would think there would be some research directly related to the physical transformation that occurs as you die, including the release of certain chemicals that may cause a person to feel like they are experiencing an out-of-body experience, or some sort of vivid dream.

 
Just as in the vivid dreams comparison, I'm not sure I'm buying the correlation with out-of-body experiences and anesthetics.  Awareness during surgery is generally caused because the anesthetic is not administered correctly and that person is not totally knocked out.  Which is not the same as someone who is totally knocked out and basically dead (no heartbeat), but only begins to recognize things around them after they (claimed to) have left their body. 

I would think there would be some research directly related to the physical transformation that occurs as you die, including the release of certain chemicals that may cause a person to feel like they are experiencing an out-of-body experience, or some sort of vivid dream.
No one is claiming there is a correlation. It's just another example of how the mind functions in different states of being. As long as the mind is alive, it's active. Sleep, anesthetics, drugs, whatever..... don't shut the mind off. They just change how the mind functions. Out of body experiences probably aren't much different than tripping on acid. The source, as you suggest, may be something the body produces for some reason we haven't discovered yet. The lack of knowledge on the source of what is stimulating a change in the minds function is not evidence of a soul that can exist outside of the body any more than an acid trip is evidence of it too. 

 
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No one is claiming there is a correlation. It's just another example of how the mind functions in different states of being. As long as the mind is alive, it's active. Sleep, anesthetics, drugs, whatever..... don't shut the mind off. They just change how the mind functions. Out of body experiences probably aren't much different than tripping on acid. The source, as you suggest, may be something the body produces for some reason we haven't discovered yet. The lack of knowledge on the source of what is stimulating a change in the minds function is not evidence of a soul that can exist outside of the body any more than an acid trip is evidence of it too. 
There are medical explanations why acid makes someone trip out, but it boggles my mind that with our advances in modern medicine that we can't figure out what is causing this brain stimulation at near death, which should leave at least a glimmer of doubt.  And until there is an explanation from the medical community, it seems closed-minded to think we can't possibly have a soul.  Which is a stance no more verifiable than people who adamantly believe that we have a soul.

I understand how religion has been used for centuries to subdue the general population into compliance, and as modern society becomes more educated we are starting to rebel against this conformance.  But it does make me wonder if this rebellion and hatred for religion has caused us to lose site of the simple, basic things that made us believe we had souls in the first place, which likely wasn't initially ingrained in people's minds by some power-hungry emperor.  

 
There are medical explanations why acid makes someone trip out, but it boggles my mind that with our advances in modern medicine that we can't figure out what is causing this brain stimulation at near death, which should leave at least a glimmer of doubt. 
Not sure why it should boggle your mind. It's pretty hard to study something after the fact. Unless you have a process of determining who is about to have an unprovoked out of body experience before they do, the only way to study it is the methods that have been presented to you. I understand why you think they're not good enough. They do leave it inconclusive. When the best we can do leaves it inconclusive, it's usually best to stick with what is more likely. In this case the more likely scenario the mind is dreaming or tripping out. It's unlikely the person is actually having a real out of body experience. 

And until there is an explanation from the medical community, it seems closed-minded to think we can't possibly have a soul.  Which is a stance no more verifiable than people who adamantly believe that we have a soul.
Sure it's possible. The existence of the flying spaghetti monster is possible to. Both however are unlikely. The inability to prove they don't exist is not proof they exist.

I understand how religion has been used for centuries to subdue the general population into compliance, and as modern society becomes more educated we are starting to rebel against this conformance.  But it does make me wonder if this rebellion and hatred for religion has caused us to lose site of the simple, basic things that made us believe we had souls in the first place, which likely wasn't initially ingrained in people's minds by some power-hungry emperor.  
The fear of death. The fear of the unknown. People have, do and will always want to believe death isn't the end of it all.  

 
Just as in the vivid dreams comparison, I'm not sure I'm buying the correlation with out-of-body experiences and anesthetics.  Awareness during surgery is generally caused because the anesthetic is not administered correctly and that person is not totally knocked out.  Which is not the same as someone who is totally knocked out and basically dead (no heartbeat), but only begins to recognize things around them after they (claimed to) have left their body. 

I would think there would be some research directly related to the physical transformation that occurs as you die, including the release of certain chemicals that may cause a person to feel like they are experiencing an out-of-body experience, or some sort of vivid dream.
Real life experience here with an out of body experience while I was wide awake on a camping trip with some buddies.  The mountain underneath us completely disappeared, so did everyone else except one other of my friends. We were in a completely different place and I could hear what he was thinking and he told me without speaking:  "Its about time you got here."

Completely explainable though; combination of high altitude, lots of coke, and an unfathomable amount of weed.  The mind does some very strange things when under stress. Not unlike what the mind thinks when the body might be giving out I imagine.

 
BobbyLayne said:
God loves you and He is for you.

Somehow, the soul, spirit, heart, conscience, mind, psychology are all connected and interrelated. 

I don't understand how exactly. Does anyone? Does it matter?

I don't understand, precisely, how the subway works. I mean I studied basic electricity and electronics decades ago so I have a framework of understanding. But I take most of it in faith. It works. That's enough.

The card ? reader works. I don't know exactly how the info is stored or read. I have a basic understanding, but nowhere near mastery. That does not prevent me from enjoying it every day.

God loves you and is for you. There's a lot of mystery in those simple words. I don't understand all of it. But it works. He shows up every day.

He speaks to us through his word, through others, and we see evidence of the Holy Spirit working in transforming lives and renewing hearts. Jesus is alive and we are seeing the Spirit poured out.

God is for you.
There's an atheist in the world that loves you too, Squid.

 
There's an atheist in the world that loves you too, Squid.
You're good people, Bubblehead.

I'm not the best example of God's transformative power. I have a ton of flaws & find sanctification (wat?) to be a painfully slow process. WIP - work in progress.

This is the 500th anniversary of the reformation. Not a huge Martin Luther fan - though a Google search for the Luther Insulter is worth two of your minutes  :lmao:   - but there is one quote that resonates:

I’m just a beggar, telling other beggars where to find bread.

G'nite

 
Science is like that blabbermouth who tells you the ending to the movie before you see it.  Well, I say there are some things I don’t want to know.  Important things. 

 
Science is like that blabbermouth who tells you the ending to the movie before you see it.  Well, I say there are some things I don’t want to know.  Important things. 
Yeah.  I hate that dude.  Especially when he's spouting things related to medical research.  

 
I am interested to hear it, just trying to educate myself a bit. Like I said, I'm not resolute in my opinions and beliefs.

My grandfather may have subconsciously heard the doctors name during surgery, but that doesn't explain how days later he recognized the doctor when he walked in unannounced to his room for a checkup. 
I'm interested too.

 
Jesus existed and was a brown skinned man. Looked nothing like any of the depictions Christianity has provided. 

 
Yes Jesus Existed. He's either flat out lying or he obviously doesn't know history. 

 Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ By The Historians Of His Day And Shortly Thereafter:

http://www.nelsonprice.com/early-secular-writings-regarding-christ/
Too bad you have to weigh yourself down with all the BS spouted by believers and non-believer alike. If only the word of Jesus was enough.

And let us be honest here, YOU need much more than the words of Jesus Christ to get you through life.

 
Paddington said:
Yes Jesus Existed. He's either flat out lying or he obviously doesn't know history. 

 Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ By The Historians Of His Day And Shortly Thereafter:

http://www.nelsonprice.com/early-secular-writings-regarding-christ/
:lmao:  at the bold. 

The guys has a doctorate in this field, is paid to continue researching it every day. 

The fact that you so easily try to discredit him says a lot more about you than it does about him. 

 
Paddington said:
Yes Jesus Existed. He's either flat out lying or he obviously doesn't know history. 

 Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ By The Historians Of His Day And Shortly Thereafter:

http://www.nelsonprice.com/early-secular-writings-regarding-christ/


http://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/12334

No Jewish or Roman historical text contains any reference to Jesus for at least sixty years. That’s more than “a few decades.” And one text, two average lifetimes after the fact, is far from “widespread.” And that reference, in the Antiquities of Josephus, is widely recognized as a forgery. And indeed, quite demonstrably is a forgery, down to every last word (see OHJ, Ch. 8.9). The second reference in Josephus that Gathercole mentions was also not written by Josephus but inserted centuries later (as the latest peer reviewed literature demonstrates: see my Journal of Early Christian Studies article on it, reproduced in Hitler Homer Bible Christ, and summarized in OHJ, Ch. 8.10).

We have to wait twenty more years before we get any other reference to Jesus as a historical person, in the Annals of Tacitus (contrary to Gathercole, Pliny, Tacitus’s friend and contemporary, never refers to Jesus as a historical person). And that reference is probably also a forgery (as the latest peer reviewed literature demonstrates: see my Vigiliae Christianae article on it, reproduced in Hitler Homer Bible Christ, and summarized in OHJ, Ch. 8.10). But even if it isn’t (indeed even if the reference in Josephus isn’t), neither of those references has any indicated source but Christian hearsay, which by then was just aping the Gospels. Consequently, neither of these sources can corroborate the Gospels. They are not an independent source. It is incompetent (or dishonest) of a historian to cite sources that aren’t independent as if they were multiple or independent sources.

No non-Christian ever noticed Jesus, or ever found any record of him outside the Gospels.

Including Josephus and Tacitus. Even if anything in them about Jesus were authentic.

That’s a problem. Although it’s not a huge problem—if we accept the Gospels all lie about how famous Jesus was, and thus conclude against their wild narratives that Jesus was actually a nobody, then it’s entirely expected no one would notice him in the literature of the era. The real problem for the historicity of Jesus is the absence of any reference to Jesus visiting earth in the earliest Christian documents. Because those “dozens of Christian writings” Gathercole refers to, are just the Gospels, which are wholly mythical and absurd and unsourced and a lifetime too late (OHJ, Chs. 8 & 9), and the Epistles, most of which are forgeries (a fact concealed by Gathercole)—and those that aren’t, never place Jesus on earth. They only describe him as someone seen in visions, and known about from hidden messages in scripture and communications from heaven (OHJ, Ch. 11).

 
http://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/12334

No Jewish or Roman historical text contains any reference to Jesus for at least sixty years. That’s more than “a few decades.” And one text, two average lifetimes after the fact, is far from “widespread.” And that reference, in the Antiquities of Josephus, is widely recognized as a forgery. And indeed, quite demonstrably is a forgery, down to every last word (see OHJ, Ch. 8.9). The second reference in Josephus that Gathercole mentions was also not written by Josephus but inserted centuries later (as the latest peer reviewed literature demonstrates: see my Journal of Early Christian Studies article on it, reproduced in Hitler Homer Bible Christ, and summarized in OHJ, Ch. 8.10).

We have to wait twenty more years before we get any other reference to Jesus as a historical person, in the Annals of Tacitus (contrary to Gathercole, Pliny, Tacitus’s friend and contemporary, never refers to Jesus as a historical person). And that reference is probably also a forgery (as the latest peer reviewed literature demonstrates: see my Vigiliae Christianae article on it, reproduced in Hitler Homer Bible Christ, and summarized in OHJ, Ch. 8.10). But even if it isn’t (indeed even if the reference in Josephus isn’t), neither of those references has any indicated source but Christian hearsay, which by then was just aping the Gospels. Consequently, neither of these sources can corroborate the Gospels. They are not an independent source. It is incompetent (or dishonest) of a historian to cite sources that aren’t independent as if they were multiple or independent sources.

No non-Christian ever noticed Jesus, or ever found any record of him outside the Gospels.

Including Josephus and Tacitus. Even if anything in them about Jesus were authentic.

That’s a problem. Although it’s not a huge problem—if we accept the Gospels all lie about how famous Jesus was, and thus conclude against their wild narratives that Jesus was actually a nobody, then it’s entirely expected no one would notice him in the literature of the era. The real problem for the historicity of Jesus is the absence of any reference to Jesus visiting earth in the earliest Christian documents. Because those “dozens of Christian writings” Gathercole refers to, are just the Gospels, which are wholly mythical and absurd and unsourced and a lifetime too late (OHJ, Chs. 8 & 9), and the Epistles, most of which are forgeries (a fact concealed by Gathercole)—and those that aren’t, never place Jesus on earth. They only describe him as someone seen in visions, and known about from hidden messages in scripture and communications from heaven (OHJ, Ch. 11).
Meh.... Paddington obviously knows history more than that guy. 

 
Meh.... Paddington obviously knows history more than that guy. 
I'm about half way through my first Carrier book - The Historicity of Jesus.  One of many interesting things I've learned about this field of biblical scholarship is how it's dominated by Christians.  Most biblical scholars are Christians.  I guess that shouldn't be surprising, really.  But, Carrier is definitely NOT a Christian - he's a historian, and an atheist - and he knows his ####.  And he's ruffling some feathers in the good ole boys club.

 
I'm about half way through my first Carrier book - The Historicity of Jesus.  One of many interesting things I've learned about this field of biblical scholarship is how it's dominated by Christians.  Most biblical scholars are Christians.  I guess that shouldn't be surprising, really.  But, Carrier is definitely NOT a Christian - he's a historian, and an atheist - and he knows his ####.  And he's ruffling some feathers in the good ole boys club.
How much historical record is there of Jesus other than the bible?

If the guy was walking on water and everything else they say it looks like there'd be a ####load. 

 
I'm about half way through my first Carrier book - The Historicity of Jesus.  One of many interesting things I've learned about this field of biblical scholarship is how it's dominated by Christians.  Most biblical scholars are Christians.  I guess that shouldn't be surprising, really.  But, Carrier is definitely NOT a Christian - he's a historian, and an atheist - and he knows his ####.  And he's ruffling some feathers in the good ole boys club.
Wanting something to be historical is a strong bias when studying history. The last person I would listen to regarding the historicity of Jesus is a christian.

That said, perhaps Carrier wants Jesus to not be historical, and therefore he is biased too. That may be why I also like reading Bart Ehrman would believes Jesus is historical, but like Carrier, and other atheists for that matter, doesn't believe the christian claims about him. He has a lot of good info on how Jesus "became god". James Tabor and Robert Price have good stuff on this. Personally I think the Jesus christians believe in is a combination of stories about at least two real people (maybe more) combined with myths simply borrowed or stolen from other ancient religions. 

Price and Erhman had a good 2+ hour debate on this last year 

 
NREC34 said:
How much historical record is there of Jesus other than the bible?

If the guy was walking on water and everything else they say it looks like there'd be a ####load. 
Ummm.  Pretty much none.  The part I'm reading now is how much SHOULD be in the record that is not.  Unless, Jesus actually did exist as a historical person, but just wasn't that noticeable for anyone to comment on.  Kind of dispels the whole walking on water thing.

 
Politician Spock said:
Wanting something to be historical is a strong bias when studying history. The last person I would listen to regarding the historicity of Jesus is a christian.

That said, perhaps Carrier wants Jesus to not be historical, and therefore he is biased too. That may be why I also like reading Bart Ehrman would believes Jesus is historical, but like Carrier, and other atheists for that matter, doesn't believe the christian claims about him. He has a lot of good info on how Jesus "became god". James Tabor and Robert Price have good stuff on this. Personally I think the Jesus christians believe in is a combination of stories about at least two real people (maybe more) combined with myths simply borrowed or stolen from other ancient religions. 

Price and Erhman had a good 2+ hour debate on this last year 
When there's not a lot of reliable evidence, and we know for sure there have been forgeries and outright purging of documents that didn't fit the narrative of those in power, you're left with a lot of guesswork.  So, biases certainly play a huge part.

 
When there's not a lot of reliable evidence, and we know for sure there have been forgeries and outright purging of documents that didn't fit the narrative of those in power, you're left with a lot of guesswork.  So, biases certainly play a huge part.
That's why it's so important when studying writings in history to study the context of what was going on in the world around them when they were written. The gospels weren't written until after the fall of Jerusalem, when many Jews were in a state of WTF?!?  :shock:  and looking for answers why their god would let that happen. 

What I find interesting about Carrier's studies is how he points out that Pauls letters, which were being written before the fall of Jerusalem is 99.99% congruent with Jesus not existing as a man, but as a spirit, an angel, and his death, sacrifice and resurrection to save men occurred within the levels of heaven. Paul claims everything he says either came from scripture or revelation, and there are ancient writings of an angel doing just that, of which Paul could easily claim to be "scripture" when he was writing. During his life scripture was simply anything written that discusses spiritual topics. It wasn't until many, many years later that both christians and jews cannonized speicifc writing to be scripture and those not cannonized are not consider scripture. When Jerusalem fell, and jews were looking for answers, the Jesus Paul wrote about was simply turned into a human by borrowing or stealing stories from other real people and mythical stories from other ancient religions. The rest is history.  

 
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