How's the Packer decision to go with Rodgers looking now? (1 Viewer)

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

I feel like this thread exists in a universe where the NFL began in 2007 and nothing before that counts. I'm pretty sure that Favre had bveen declining before last year and the Packers were mediocre, and the Jets were a 10-win playoff team in 2006 as well.

In 2007 Favre had a great year and the Jets were terrible. But that doesn't mean that Favre was "back" for the foreseeable future and the Jets could never crawl out of their hole. Isn't it possible that the Packers would have slipped back with Favre and the jets would have been much improved without him? Favre's a great player, but I'm just not convinced that Green Bay would have been any better with him. The Jets might be a bit worse, but still much improved.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Rodgers is on pace for...

3,621 yards

25 TDs passing

5 TDs rushing

12 INTs

That's 30 total TDs against 12 INTs and a passer rating over 90. There's hardly any dropoff, if any at all.

I can think of at least 10 bigger reasons for the Packers woes. Again this thread is stupid. People trying to pin this on a 1st year starter who is putting up very impressive first year numbers are going after the easy and incorrect target...something that should be below this forum. This is the kind of debate that should be limited to drunks in corner tavern. And that's exactly what I'm reminded of listening to these blowhards pinning everything on Rodgers.

You will not find a post from me anywhere here saying that Rodgers is the reason the Packers are where they are. But I also will not sit here and say that the Packers would not be better off with Brett at QB this season. Brett would in all likelihood have put up numbers as good as Rodgers (probably a few more INT's but also a few more TD's). Throw in his experience at the position and his leadership to the entire team....and at least for this season...Brett would have been the better choice.

For this season...sure. I agree...right now Brett would have been better for this year.That said, this year, this team is still not a contender...even with Brett. They just are not.

So what good is one more year of #4 if you are not really a contender to win it all?

tell that to the giants.

Ok, I will tell that to the defending SB Champs who are a far better team than the GB Packers and were better than the Packers even with Favre.

the same ones who werent considered contenders to win the SB? Isnt it amazing what can happen when you make the playoffs?

Here is a tip...the 2007 NY Giants did not have Favre and won it all.The 2007 NY Giants had a QB who everyone thought was not a leader and sucked.

The 2007 NY Giants were better than even the 2007 GB Packers with Brett Favre...and they are surely better than the 2008 GB Packers.

Your point is pretty darn foolish and makes no sense.

you argument was that they wouldnt have been true contenders to win it all no matter what so who cares? well I just gave you an example of a team that wasnt considered a contender at all, that did in fact win it all. Why??? Cuz they made the playoffs and had a shot. Thats why teams try to make the playoffs. You understand how that works right?you come back with the bolded above?

I wouldnt expect you to be able to make any kind of rational argument at this point. You said during todays game thread that people needed to eat some crow about Ryan Grant. That makes me

 

[teamroc]

Okay the game is over. Let's all jump on here and watch Sho Nuff argue with some other tools criticizing this game. Afterall, you dorks have another game of stats to analyze and dool over as you try desperately to make your point heard. Ignore the fact that your efforts are worthless as neither side will cave. Ever. This will be a debate that we will never know the answer to, but people will still try to debate it. Here we go...Enter Sho Nuff: Their defense is the problem! Then enter his opponents, also tools: Rodgers blew it at the end! Bad throw!Both are obviously true points. The problem is people try to put the blame on one side of the ball or just one person. In the end this year's team is completely different than previous years' teams. You cannot compare them. Also, you cannot put the blame of a loss soley on one person. Rodgers blew it, it was an awful throw. McCarthy had awful play calls on their last FG. The defense truly blew it on coverage with 2 deep balls. Go on though, ignore logic. Keep those blinders on. keep thinking there is only one answer to this question. Stay close minded. Keep beating a dead horse Okay the game is over. Let's all jump on here and watch Sho Nuff argue with some other tools criticizing this game. Afterall, you dorks have another game of stats to analyze and dool over as you try desperately to make your point heard. Ignore the fact that your efforts are worthless as neither side will cave. Ever. This will be a debate that we will never know the answer to, but people will still try to debate it. Here we go...Enter Sho Nuff: Their defense is the problem! Then enter Ookie and ScottyFargo: Rodgers blew it at the end! Bad throw!Both are obviously true points. The problem is people try to put the blame on one side of the ball or just one person. In the end this year's team is completely different than previous years' teams. You cannot compare them. Also, you cannot put the blame of a loss soley on one person. Rodgers blew it, it was an awful throw. McCarthy had awful play calls on their last FG. The defense truly blew it on coverage with 2 deep balls. Go on though, ignore logic. Keep those blinders on. keep thinking there is only one answer to this question. Stay close minded. Keep beating a dead horse

We'll never know? Actually we know quite well.By your logic, you can never analyze anything. Way too complicated, too many variables, lets just not even try.We knew it was a bad move back in June. Keep Favre, extend Rogers, play football. Going into the season with 3 qbs, 0 nfl starts, that was a good move? Taking a 13-3 NFC championship game team, and rebuilding? And yes starting a QB with 0 NFL starts is rebuilding. It was wrong on June 20th, and it's wrong now. And it has nothing to do with todays game, or Rodgers stats. He's been great.

 

[ScottyFargo]

Okay the game is over. Let's all jump on here and watch Sho Nuff argue with some other tools criticizing this game. Afterall, you dorks have another game of stats to analyze and dool over as you try desperately to make your point heard. Ignore the fact that your efforts are worthless as neither side will cave. Ever. This will be a debate that we will never know the answer to, but people will still try to debate it. Here we go...Enter Sho Nuff: Their defense is the problem! Then enter his opponents, also tools: Rodgers blew it at the end! Bad throw!Both are obviously true points. The problem is people try to put the blame on one side of the ball or just one person. In the end this year's team is completely different than previous years' teams. You cannot compare them. Also, you cannot put the blame of a loss soley on one person. Rodgers blew it, it was an awful throw. McCarthy had awful play calls on their last FG. The defense truly blew it on coverage with 2 deep balls. Go on though, ignore logic. Keep those blinders on. keep thinking there is only one answer to this question. Stay close minded. Keep beating a dead horse Okay the game is over. Let's all jump on here and watch Sho Nuff argue with some other tools criticizing this game. Afterall, you dorks have another game of stats to analyze and dool over as you try desperately to make your point heard. Ignore the fact that your efforts are worthless as neither side will cave. Ever. This will be a debate that we will never know the answer to, but people will still try to debate it. Here we go...Enter Sho Nuff: Their defense is the problem! Then enter Ookie and ScottyFargo: Rodgers blew it at the end! Bad throw!Both are obviously true points. The problem is people try to put the blame on one side of the ball or just one person. In the end this year's team is completely different than previous years' teams. You cannot compare them. Also, you cannot put the blame of a loss soley on one person. Rodgers blew it, it was an awful throw. McCarthy had awful play calls on their last FG. The defense truly blew it on coverage with 2 deep balls. Go on though, ignore logic. Keep those blinders on. keep thinking there is only one answer to this question. Stay close minded. Keep beating a dead horse

We'll never know? Actually we know quite well.By your logic, you can never analyze anything. Way too complicated, too many variables, lets just not even try.We knew it was a bad move back in June. Keep Favre, extend Rogers, play football. Going into the season with 3 qbs, 0 nfl starts, that was a good move? Taking a 13-3 NFC championship game team, and rebuilding? And yes starting a QB with 0 NFL starts is rebuilding. It was wrong on June 20th, and it's wrong now. And it has nothing to do with todays game, or Rodgers stats. He's been great.

Though Dr Doctor claims to have have an extreme IQ, for some reason he disdains general discourse on topics that he himself finds too complex to discuss. Ironically, he doesn't see the futility of his own posts in this thread.

 

[sho nuff]

Rodgers is on pace for...

3,621 yards

25 TDs passing

5 TDs rushing

12 INTs

That's 30 total TDs against 12 INTs and a passer rating over 90. There's hardly any dropoff, if any at all.

I can think of at least 10 bigger reasons for the Packers woes. Again this thread is stupid. People trying to pin this on a 1st year starter who is putting up very impressive first year numbers are going after the easy and incorrect target...something that should be below this forum. This is the kind of debate that should be limited to drunks in corner tavern. And that's exactly what I'm reminded of listening to these blowhards pinning everything on Rodgers.

You will not find a post from me anywhere here saying that Rodgers is the reason the Packers are where they are. But I also will not sit here and say that the Packers would not be better off with Brett at QB this season. Brett would in all likelihood have put up numbers as good as Rodgers (probably a few more INT's but also a few more TD's). Throw in his experience at the position and his leadership to the entire team....and at least for this season...Brett would have been the better choice.

For this season...sure. I agree...right now Brett would have been better for this year.That said, this year, this team is still not a contender...even with Brett. They just are not.

So what good is one more year of #4 if you are not really a contender to win it all?

tell that to the giants.

Ok, I will tell that to the defending SB Champs who are a far better team than the GB Packers and were better than the Packers even with Favre.

the same ones who werent considered contenders to win the SB? Isnt it amazing what can happen when you make the playoffs?

Here is a tip...the 2007 NY Giants did not have Favre and won it all.The 2007 NY Giants had a QB who everyone thought was not a leader and sucked.

The 2007 NY Giants were better than even the 2007 GB Packers with Brett Favre...and they are surely better than the 2008 GB Packers.

Your point is pretty darn foolish and makes no sense.

you argument was that they wouldnt have been true contenders to win it all no matter what so who cares? well I just gave you an example of a team that wasnt considered a contender at all, that did in fact win it all. Why??? Cuz they made the playoffs and had a shot. Thats why teams try to make the playoffs. You understand how that works right?you come back with the bolded above?

I wouldnt expect you to be able to make any kind of rational argument at this point. You said during todays game thread that people needed to eat some crow about Ryan Grant. That makes me

My argument is they would not be because of the rest of the team.The 2007 NY Giants were a very good team with a solid group of players all around. GB does not have that this year. They just don't.

So bringing up the Giants is pretty much pointless.

Do you think bringing them up is really any rational argument?

People did need to eat crow about what they said about Grant for about 4-5 games into the season. Until today he had run very well the past several games.

 

[sho nuff]

Okay the game is over. Let's all jump on here and watch Sho Nuff argue with some other tools criticizing this game. Afterall, you dorks have another game of stats to analyze and dool over as you try desperately to make your point heard. Ignore the fact that your efforts are worthless as neither side will cave. Ever. This will be a debate that we will never know the answer to, but people will still try to debate it. Here we go...Enter Sho Nuff: Their defense is the problem! Then enter his opponents, also tools: Rodgers blew it at the end! Bad throw!Both are obviously true points. The problem is people try to put the blame on one side of the ball or just one person. In the end this year's team is completely different than previous years' teams. You cannot compare them. Also, you cannot put the blame of a loss soley on one person. Rodgers blew it, it was an awful throw. McCarthy had awful play calls on their last FG. The defense truly blew it on coverage with 2 deep balls. Go on though, ignore logic. Keep those blinders on. keep thinking there is only one answer to this question. Stay close minded. Keep beating a dead horse Okay the game is over. Let's all jump on here and watch Sho Nuff argue with some other tools criticizing this game. Afterall, you dorks have another game of stats to analyze and dool over as you try desperately to make your point heard. Ignore the fact that your efforts are worthless as neither side will cave. Ever. This will be a debate that we will never know the answer to, but people will still try to debate it. Here we go...Enter Sho Nuff: Their defense is the problem! Then enter Ookie and ScottyFargo: Rodgers blew it at the end! Bad throw!Both are obviously true points. The problem is people try to put the blame on one side of the ball or just one person. In the end this year's team is completely different than previous years' teams. You cannot compare them. Also, you cannot put the blame of a loss soley on one person. Rodgers blew it, it was an awful throw. McCarthy had awful play calls on their last FG. The defense truly blew it on coverage with 2 deep balls. Go on though, ignore logic. Keep those blinders on. keep thinking there is only one answer to this question. Stay close minded. Keep beating a dead horse

We'll never know? Actually we know quite well.By your logic, you can never analyze anything. Way too complicated, too many variables, lets just not even try.We knew it was a bad move back in June. Keep Favre, extend Rogers, play football. Going into the season with 3 qbs, 0 nfl starts, that was a good move? Taking a 13-3 NFC championship game team, and rebuilding? And yes starting a QB with 0 NFL starts is rebuilding. It was wrong on June 20th, and it's wrong now. And it has nothing to do with todays game, or Rodgers stats. He's been great.

So if he has been great...can you admit the rest of the team is not that good and that even #4 would not make this team a contender.And if they are not a contender...why even bring him back?

 

[ScottyFargo]

Okay the game is over. Let's all jump on here and watch Sho Nuff argue with some other tools criticizing this game. Afterall, you dorks have another game of stats to analyze and dool over as you try desperately to make your point heard. Ignore the fact that your efforts are worthless as neither side will cave. Ever. This will be a debate that we will never know the answer to, but people will still try to debate it. Here we go...Enter Sho Nuff: Their defense is the problem! Then enter his opponents, also tools: Rodgers blew it at the end! Bad throw!Both are obviously true points. The problem is people try to put the blame on one side of the ball or just one person. In the end this year's team is completely different than previous years' teams. You cannot compare them. Also, you cannot put the blame of a loss soley on one person. Rodgers blew it, it was an awful throw. McCarthy had awful play calls on their last FG. The defense truly blew it on coverage with 2 deep balls. Go on though, ignore logic. Keep those blinders on. keep thinking there is only one answer to this question. Stay close minded. Keep beating a dead horse Okay the game is over. Let's all jump on here and watch Sho Nuff argue with some other tools criticizing this game. Afterall, you dorks have another game of stats to analyze and dool over as you try desperately to make your point heard. Ignore the fact that your efforts are worthless as neither side will cave. Ever. This will be a debate that we will never know the answer to, but people will still try to debate it. Here we go...Enter Sho Nuff: Their defense is the problem! Then enter Ookie and ScottyFargo: Rodgers blew it at the end! Bad throw!Both are obviously true points. The problem is people try to put the blame on one side of the ball or just one person. In the end this year's team is completely different than previous years' teams. You cannot compare them. Also, you cannot put the blame of a loss soley on one person. Rodgers blew it, it was an awful throw. McCarthy had awful play calls on their last FG. The defense truly blew it on coverage with 2 deep balls. Go on though, ignore logic. Keep those blinders on. keep thinking there is only one answer to this question. Stay close minded. Keep beating a dead horse

We'll never know? Actually we know quite well.By your logic, you can never analyze anything. Way too complicated, too many variables, lets just not even try.We knew it was a bad move back in June. Keep Favre, extend Rogers, play football. Going into the season with 3 qbs, 0 nfl starts, that was a good move? Taking a 13-3 NFC championship game team, and rebuilding? And yes starting a QB with 0 NFL starts is rebuilding. It was wrong on June 20th, and it's wrong now. And it has nothing to do with todays game, or Rodgers stats. He's been great.

So if he has been great...can you admit the rest of the team is not that good and that even #4 would not make this team a contender.And if they are not a contender...why even bring him back?

Dude seriously, the Giants sucked a lot during the regular season last year. There is no way of telling which team is a real contender and which is a joke until they man up during the playoffs.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Rodgers is on pace for...

3,621 yards

25 TDs passing

5 TDs rushing

12 INTs

That's 30 total TDs against 12 INTs and a passer rating over 90. There's hardly any dropoff, if any at all.

I can think of at least 10 bigger reasons for the Packers woes. Again this thread is stupid. People trying to pin this on a 1st year starter who is putting up very impressive first year numbers are going after the easy and incorrect target...something that should be below this forum. This is the kind of debate that should be limited to drunks in corner tavern. And that's exactly what I'm reminded of listening to these blowhards pinning everything on Rodgers.

You will not find a post from me anywhere here saying that Rodgers is the reason the Packers are where they are. But I also will not sit here and say that the Packers would not be better off with Brett at QB this season. Brett would in all likelihood have put up numbers as good as Rodgers (probably a few more INT's but also a few more TD's). Throw in his experience at the position and his leadership to the entire team....and at least for this season...Brett would have been the better choice.

For this season...sure. I agree...right now Brett would have been better for this year.That said, this year, this team is still not a contender...even with Brett. They just are not.

So what good is one more year of #4 if you are not really a contender to win it all?

tell that to the giants.

Ok, I will tell that to the defending SB Champs who are a far better team than the GB Packers and were better than the Packers even with Favre.

the same ones who werent considered contenders to win the SB? Isnt it amazing what can happen when you make the playoffs?

Here is a tip...the 2007 NY Giants did not have Favre and won it all.The 2007 NY Giants had a QB who everyone thought was not a leader and sucked.

The 2007 NY Giants were better than even the 2007 GB Packers with Brett Favre...and they are surely better than the 2008 GB Packers.

Your point is pretty darn foolish and makes no sense.

you argument was that they wouldnt have been true contenders to win it all no matter what so who cares? well I just gave you an example of a team that wasnt considered a contender at all, that did in fact win it all. Why??? Cuz they made the playoffs and had a shot. Thats why teams try to make the playoffs. You understand how that works right?you come back with the bolded above?

I wouldnt expect you to be able to make any kind of rational argument at this point. You said during todays game thread that people needed to eat some crow about Ryan Grant. That makes me

My argument is they would not be because of the rest of the team.The 2007 NY Giants were a very good team with a solid group of players all around. GB does not have that this year. They just don't.

So bringing up the Giants is pretty much pointless.

Do you think bringing them up is really any rational argument?

People did need to eat crow about what they said about Grant for about 4-5 games into the season. Until today he had run very well the past several games.

you have the benifit of hindsight about the Giants. I doubt very much you were predicting them last year as contenders which is of course my point. Why is this so hard to understand? They were 2.5 dogs against TB, 7.5 dogs against the cowboys, 7 points against the pack, 11.5 against the pats.

Green Bay beat them earlier that year in their own house 35-13!

Bottom line is the giants made the playoffs and came together as a great team. Pitt did the same thing when they won.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Okay the game is over. Let's all jump on here and watch Sho Nuff argue with some other tools criticizing this game. Afterall, you dorks have another game of stats to analyze and dool over as you try desperately to make your point heard. Ignore the fact that your efforts are worthless as neither side will cave. Ever. This will be a debate that we will never know the answer to, but people will still try to debate it.

Here we go...

Enter Sho Nuff: Their defense is the problem!

Then enter his opponents, also tools: Rodgers blew it at the end! Bad throw!

Both are obviously true points. The problem is people try to put the blame on one side of the ball or just one person. In the end this year's team is completely different than previous years' teams. You cannot compare them. Also, you cannot put the blame of a loss soley on one person. Rodgers blew it, it was an awful throw. McCarthy had awful play calls on their last FG. The defense truly blew it on coverage with 2 deep balls.

Go on though, ignore logic. Keep those blinders on. keep thinking there is only one answer to this question. Stay close minded. Keep beating a dead horse Okay the game is over. Let's all jump on here and watch Sho Nuff argue with some other tools criticizing this game. Afterall, you dorks have another game of stats to analyze and dool over as you try desperately to make your point heard. Ignore the fact that your efforts are worthless as neither side will cave. Ever. This will be a debate that we will never know the answer to, but people will still try to debate it.

Here we go...

Enter Sho Nuff: Their defense is the problem!

Then enter Ookie and ScottyFargo: Rodgers blew it at the end! Bad throw!

Both are obviously true points. The problem is people try to put the blame on one side of the ball or just one person. In the end this year's team is completely different than previous years' teams. You cannot compare them. Also, you cannot put the blame of a loss soley on one person. Rodgers blew it, it was an awful throw. McCarthy had awful play calls on their last FG. The defense truly blew it on coverage with 2 deep balls.

Go on though, ignore logic. Keep those blinders on. keep thinking there is only one answer to this question. Stay close minded. Keep beating a dead horse

We'll never know? Actually we know quite well.By your logic, you can never analyze anything. Way too complicated, too many variables, lets just not even try.

We knew it was a bad move back in June. Keep Favre, extend Rogers, play football. Going into the season with 3 qbs, 0 nfl starts, that was a good move? Taking a 13-3 NFC championship game team, and rebuilding? And yes starting a QB with 0 NFL starts is rebuilding.

It was wrong on June 20th, and it's wrong now. And it has nothing to do with todays game, or Rodgers stats. He's been great.

So if he has been great...can you admit the rest of the team is not that good and that even #4 would not make this team a contender.And if they are not a contender...why even bring him back?

so wait is TT a good GM or isnt he?you kill me.

 

[zDragon]

Go ahead and give Rodgers the free pass. The biggest drop was at the QB position this year.

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen posted here.

Why is that? Go from a HOF QB playing at a high level...to a QB with zero starts in the NFL. Rodgers had played well...but you cannot argue with the comment.

The dumbest quote is exactly what I'm talking about. I've made a point not to insult anyone but apparently that hasn't been returned. It's everything but Rodgers to some. I mention field position hurt them in the NO game and the first non-fact thrown out was it was Frost.To except that there was a drop at the position seems to be Taboh well. Wearing blinders with rose colored glasses isn't always wise. Like I said before I don't care for the Packers or Favre since I'm a Cowboys fan.Edit: Since the root of this seems to be Favre versus Rodgers and how bad the Green Bay defense is. The Jets D is only giving up 2 points less per game.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Bottom line, it was GB's defense that put GB in the hole on the road, not Rodgers.

Really. All is pretty much equal going into second half. What really goes wrong in the second half. Let's take a look.NO drives and scores. GB (2 plays) throws a pick and gives NO the ball on the 3yd line. (Defense at fault?)NO Gets 3 yds and scores.GB (3 plays) throws a pick and gives NO the ball on the 29yd line (Defense at fault?)NO Green bay defense gets pick on (2nd play) to get GB back in the game.GB (3 plays) and a punt later NO has the ball again. (Defense at fault?)11 minutes into the quarter and the GB offense manages to get off 8 plays. You don't think after all things being fairly equal in the first half it wasn't the Offense that let the defense down?

How can anyone take your seriously?You have argued that the defense and running game have not dropped off that much from last season.You are now arguing for the defense in a game they gave up 24 points in the first half.Seriously...step away from the box scores and watch a few games man.

Why not take me seriously. The defense gave up points but most Defenses have against the saints. I've posted Facts when someone tried to blame the poor field position on Frost.I posted facts to show where the D kept them in other games.I've watched games so I know when someone says it's Frost that killed them field position wise I just have to get the data instead of take it as fact.Nice try though.

31 through 1 drive of the 2nd half is alot of points. You cannot just claim its Rodgers and the offense when the defense was not ever getting off the field. And that was with the offense churning out long time consuming drives (a point others tried to use in the past in saying how Rodgers was hurting the defense). In this case...the offense had done its job to that point and the D still gave up 31 to that point.As for not taking you seriously...read your posts about the defense and running game early in the season. Its all based on box scores. But if you had read any of the game day threads and threads after...the complaints were about the defense and running game. And not just from me...but nearly every fan of this team.Not all the poor field position is on Frost...some of it is as he has not been that great this year. He was brought in more for his directional punting...and he even struggled with that early in the year. He does not have the big leg that Ryan had...though, Ryan often punted too low and out punted the coverage and gave up returns.He is not the whole problem...but he is part of it.

Watched first quarter today before I had to leave. Saw another third quarter like with the Saints. Offense struggling and defense kept them in the game. THink the punt average was 42+ which is close to league average if I recall right. Offense a lot of three and outs before clicking in the last minutes of the quarter.

There were a few three and outs, but they had a 18-11 minute lead in time of possession at the half. Nonetheless, I expect anyone whito could blame last week's loss on the offense could probably find a way to delude themselves again this week.

Go ahead and give Rodgers the free pass. The biggest drop was at the QB position this year. The funny thing is many say it was expected but will not except it. This is getting really boring and useless since some are giving the free pass. Oh bad field position was frosts fault. Post facts showing it wasn't and then people complain your using facts.

I understand you only saw part of the first quarter so don't have much to go on. Rodgers engineered four straight scoring drives beginning in the third qtr. - including a 95 yard drive and two others over 75 yards - to bring the Packers back and give them a 3 point lead with under two minutes left. Favre never played the position better than Rodgers did today at any time in the past five seasons or so. He had one interception during a desperation drive at the end of the game, without which his QB rating would have (once again) been over 100. He ran the ball well, played through several huge hits, played like a veteran and put the team in a position to win the game. The Packers had a big statistical advantage over the Panthers, including huge leads in yardage and time of possession. The difference today was that the Packers special teams played poorly, especially in the second half, and Steve Smith made a couple great plays in the fourth Qtr. setting up two 1 yd touchdowns.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Bottom line, it was GB's defense that put GB in the hole on the road, not Rodgers.

Really. All is pretty much equal going into second half. What really goes wrong in the second half. Let's take a look.

NO drives and scores.

GB (2 plays) throws a pick and gives NO the ball on the 3yd line. (Defense at fault?)

NO Gets 3 yds and scores.

GB (3 plays) throws a pick and gives NO the ball on the 29yd line (Defense at fault?)

NO Green bay defense gets pick on (2nd play) to get GB back in the game.

GB (3 plays) and a punt later NO has the ball again. (Defense at fault?)

11 minutes into the quarter and the GB offense manages to get off 8 plays. You don't think after all things being fairly equal in the first half it wasn't the Offense that let the defense down?

How can anyone take your seriously?You have argued that the defense and running game have not dropped off that much from last season.

You are now arguing for the defense in a game they gave up 24 points in the first half.

Seriously...step away from the box scores and watch a few games man.

Why not take me seriously. The defense gave up points but most Defenses have against the saints. I've posted Facts when someone tried to blame the poor field position on Frost.I posted facts to show where the D kept them in other games.

I've watched games so I know when someone says it's Frost that killed them field position wise I just have to get the data instead of take it as fact.

Nice try though.

31 through 1 drive of the 2nd half is alot of points. You cannot just claim its Rodgers and the offense when the defense was not ever getting off the field. And that was with the offense churning out long time consuming drives (a point others tried to use in the past in saying how Rodgers was hurting the defense). In this case...the offense had done its job to that point and the D still gave up 31 to that point.As for not taking you seriously...read your posts about the defense and running game early in the season. Its all based on box scores. But if you had read any of the game day threads and threads after...the complaints were about the defense and running game. And not just from me...but nearly every fan of this team.

Not all the poor field position is on Frost...some of it is as he has not been that great this year. He was brought in more for his directional punting...and he even struggled with that early in the year. He does not have the big leg that Ryan had...though, Ryan often punted too low and out punted the coverage and gave up returns.

He is not the whole problem...but he is part of it.

Watched first quarter today before I had to leave. Saw another third quarter like with the Saints. Offense struggling and defense kept them in the game. THink the punt average was 42+ which is close to league average if I recall right. Offense a lot of three and outs before clicking in the last minutes of the quarter.

There were a few three and outs, but they had a 18-11 minute lead in time of possession at the half. Nonetheless, I expect anyone whito could blame last week's loss on the offense could probably find a way to delude themselves again this week.

Go ahead and give Rodgers the free pass. The biggest drop was at the QB position this year. The funny thing is many say it was expected but will not except it. This is getting really boring and useless since some are giving the free pass. Oh bad field position was frosts fault. Post facts showing it wasn't and then people complain your using facts.

I understand you only saw part of the first quarter so don't have much to go on. Rodgers engineered four straight scoring drives beginning in the third qtr. - including a 95 yard drive and two others over 75 yards - to bring the Packers back and give them a 3 point lead with under two minutes left. Favre never played the position better than Rodgers did today at any time in the past five seasons or so. He had one interception during a desperation drive at the end of the game, without which his QB rating would have (once again) been over 100. He ran the ball well, played through several huge hits, played like a veteran and put the team in a position to win the game. The Packers had a big statistical advantage over the Panthers, including huge leads in yardage and time of possession. The difference today was that the Packers special teams played poorly, especially in the second half, and Steve Smith made a couple great plays in the fourth Qtr. setting up two 1 yd touchdowns.

this is a ridiculous statement. I can think of 4 games vs Minnesota alone where he played better. i dont think it would be too hard to dig up quite a few more.

 

[Phase of the Game]

Bottom line, it was GB's defense that put GB in the hole on the road, not Rodgers.

Really. All is pretty much equal going into second half. What really goes wrong in the second half. Let's take a look.NO drives and scores. GB (2 plays) throws a pick and gives NO the ball on the 3yd line. (Defense at fault?)NO Gets 3 yds and scores.GB (3 plays) throws a pick and gives NO the ball on the 29yd line (Defense at fault?)NO Green bay defense gets pick on (2nd play) to get GB back in the game.GB (3 plays) and a punt later NO has the ball again. (Defense at fault?)11 minutes into the quarter and the GB offense manages to get off 8 plays. You don't think after all things being fairly equal in the first half it wasn't the Offense that let the defense down?

How can anyone take your seriously?You have argued that the defense and running game have not dropped off that much from last season.You are now arguing for the defense in a game they gave up 24 points in the first half.Seriously...step away from the box scores and watch a few games man.

Why not take me seriously. The defense gave up points but most Defenses have against the saints. I've posted Facts when someone tried to blame the poor field position on Frost.I posted facts to show where the D kept them in other games.I've watched games so I know when someone says it's Frost that killed them field position wise I just have to get the data instead of take it as fact.Nice try though.

31 through 1 drive of the 2nd half is alot of points. You cannot just claim its Rodgers and the offense when the defense was not ever getting off the field. And that was with the offense churning out long time consuming drives (a point others tried to use in the past in saying how Rodgers was hurting the defense). In this case...the offense had done its job to that point and the D still gave up 31 to that point.As for not taking you seriously...read your posts about the defense and running game early in the season. Its all based on box scores. But if you had read any of the game day threads and threads after...the complaints were about the defense and running game. And not just from me...but nearly every fan of this team.Not all the poor field position is on Frost...some of it is as he has not been that great this year. He was brought in more for his directional punting...and he even struggled with that early in the year. He does not have the big leg that Ryan had...though, Ryan often punted too low and out punted the coverage and gave up returns.He is not the whole problem...but he is part of it.

Watched first quarter today before I had to leave. Saw another third quarter like with the Saints. Offense struggling and defense kept them in the game. THink the punt average was 42+ which is close to league average if I recall right. Offense a lot of three and outs before clicking in the last minutes of the quarter.

There were a few three and outs, but they had a 18-11 minute lead in time of possession at the half. Nonetheless, I expect anyone whito could blame last week's loss on the offense could probably find a way to delude themselves again this week.

Go ahead and give Rodgers the free pass. The biggest drop was at the QB position this year. The funny thing is many say it was expected but will not except it. This is getting really boring and useless since some are giving the free pass. Oh bad field position was frosts fault. Post facts showing it wasn't and then people complain your using facts.

Favre never played the position better than Rodgers did today at any time in the past five seasons or so.

 

[Sabertooth]

Rodgers is not the problem in Green Bay. Coaching decisions, preperation on the part of the defense, offensive line injuries and struggles, and the lack of any type of identity on defense are the problems. Rodgers is playing at an elite level. Anybody who doesn't see that is either blind or fishing. Rodgers is playing tough, accurate football. He's making good decisions. He's putting the ball on the money.

The defense can't stop anyone. I'd say losing Cullen Jenkins and Corey Williams are as big a factors in the Packers losing record as losing Favre. Coaching decisions also seem to be a problem. A team that loses 4 games be 4 points or less needs to look at the coaching.

Also, penalties, penalties, penalties. Although Rodgers doesn't get a pass on that either because he had two delay of games yesterday. But overall he's played at a playoff caliber level. The rest of the team has come backwards quite a bit in terms of being ready to play, be that from loss of personnel, penalties, or the inability of the coaching staff to have the team mentally prepared.

 

[sho nuff]

Okay the game is over. Let's all jump on here and watch Sho Nuff argue with some other tools criticizing this game. Afterall, you dorks have another game of stats to analyze and dool over as you try desperately to make your point heard. Ignore the fact that your efforts are worthless as neither side will cave. Ever. This will be a debate that we will never know the answer to, but people will still try to debate it. Here we go...Enter Sho Nuff: Their defense is the problem! Then enter his opponents, also tools: Rodgers blew it at the end! Bad throw!Both are obviously true points. The problem is people try to put the blame on one side of the ball or just one person. In the end this year's team is completely different than previous years' teams. You cannot compare them. Also, you cannot put the blame of a loss soley on one person. Rodgers blew it, it was an awful throw. McCarthy had awful play calls on their last FG. The defense truly blew it on coverage with 2 deep balls. Go on though, ignore logic. Keep those blinders on. keep thinking there is only one answer to this question. Stay close minded. Keep beating a dead horse Okay the game is over. Let's all jump on here and watch Sho Nuff argue with some other tools criticizing this game. Afterall, you dorks have another game of stats to analyze and dool over as you try desperately to make your point heard. Ignore the fact that your efforts are worthless as neither side will cave. Ever. This will be a debate that we will never know the answer to, but people will still try to debate it. Here we go...Enter Sho Nuff: Their defense is the problem! Then enter Ookie and ScottyFargo: Rodgers blew it at the end! Bad throw!Both are obviously true points. The problem is people try to put the blame on one side of the ball or just one person. In the end this year's team is completely different than previous years' teams. You cannot compare them. Also, you cannot put the blame of a loss soley on one person. Rodgers blew it, it was an awful throw. McCarthy had awful play calls on their last FG. The defense truly blew it on coverage with 2 deep balls. Go on though, ignore logic. Keep those blinders on. keep thinking there is only one answer to this question. Stay close minded. Keep beating a dead horse

We'll never know? Actually we know quite well.By your logic, you can never analyze anything. Way too complicated, too many variables, lets just not even try.We knew it was a bad move back in June. Keep Favre, extend Rogers, play football. Going into the season with 3 qbs, 0 nfl starts, that was a good move? Taking a 13-3 NFC championship game team, and rebuilding? And yes starting a QB with 0 NFL starts is rebuilding. It was wrong on June 20th, and it's wrong now. And it has nothing to do with todays game, or Rodgers stats. He's been great.

So if he has been great...can you admit the rest of the team is not that good and that even #4 would not make this team a contender.And if they are not a contender...why even bring him back?

Dude seriously, the Giants sucked a lot during the regular season last year. There is no way of telling which team is a real contender and which is a joke until they man up during the playoffs.

Dude seriously...look at that Giants team...then this current Packer team. There is no comparison. This Packer team cannot even man up and stop a kickoff return and suddenly the 2ndary is getting burnt too.The Giants after the big Minny loss (terrible game by Eli), went on to beat the Eagles and Bears on the road, lost a tough game against Washington (a playoff team) then took care of business at Buffalo and played NE tough.The D was better the run game was better and so on...than this Packer team.This Packer team is not a contending team. Not with this defense unless they got on some crazy hot streak...which the way they are playing is not happening, in fact, its getting worse.The comparison was foolish.

 

[teamroc]

So if he has been great...can you admit the rest of the team is not that good and that even #4 would not make this team a contender.And if they are not a contender...why even bring him back?

Go back to June 20th, like 260 posts ago by you.13-3 team, Favre playing at a very high level, ready to come back. With a team that had been so close, the backup with 0 starts, bringing him back was the best move. Extend Rodgers. And give it another shot. Rodgers isn't going anywhere. He'd be fine next year. TT made an ego move. Now if you want to look at this year, I think the circus has affected the Packers. They had largely the same team coming back. Training camp was largely a media disaster. TT put Rodgers under a mountain of pressure. Maybe Rodgers is feeling some of the weight of replacing Favre? Of it being an unpopular move? It's hard enough to replace a legend, but in the matter TT handled it, it made it 100x worse. You even said the Packers would have been better in the short term with Favre. As I've said 20 times, welcome Favre back, extend Rodgers. It's win-win, and I do feel like the Packers would be better off then 5-7. A QB isn't just about passer rating. It's leadership. Trust. Intangibles. Matt Ryan doesn't have the strongest arm, he's not the biggest, the fastest. But he has some leadership qualities that have given the players around him confidence. Falcons believe they have a chance to win. So do the Jets. I'm not saying Rodgers doesn't or won't have it, but I'm not a number of Packers were not pleased with how Brett was dealt. Wanted him back. If you went into the locker room June 20th, and ask who you want your QB to be, 99% would have said Favre. They've gone to war with him, they were so close to the SB, you're joking yourself if you don't think so. Rodgers has largely saved TTs ### with his good play. That doesn't mean it was the best move. We could be talking about Rodgers playing well next year, while Favre had the Packers heading to the playoffs this year. Again, you can't blame Rodgers for anything. He's done nothing wrong. It's 100% on TT. I have no faults with Rodgers. TT blew it on this one, and Rodgers playing well has masked that a little. But on June 20th, the correct course of action was very clear.

 

[sho nuff]

you have the benifit of hindsight about the Giants. I doubt very much you were predicting them last year as contenders which is of course my point. Why is this so hard to understand? They were 2.5 dogs against TB, 7.5 dogs against the cowboys, 7 points against the pack, 11.5 against the pats.Green Bay beat them earlier that year in their own house 35-13! Bottom line is the giants made the playoffs and came together as a great team. Pitt did the same thing when they won.

I have the benefit of hindsight with this Packer team too. Its not as good as thought at the beginning of the year. Its not as good of a team (not just the QB position) as it was last year.The Giants came together some all year long. This Packer team does not seem to be coming together now does it?Does a contender give up 41 points in the first half over the last two games of November?How about 86 points in the last 2 games?

 

[sho nuff]

Okay the game is over. Let's all jump on here and watch Sho Nuff argue with some other tools criticizing this game. Afterall, you dorks have another game of stats to analyze and dool over as you try desperately to make your point heard. Ignore the fact that your efforts are worthless as neither side will cave. Ever. This will be a debate that we will never know the answer to, but people will still try to debate it.

Here we go...

Enter Sho Nuff: Their defense is the problem!

Then enter his opponents, also tools: Rodgers blew it at the end! Bad throw!

Both are obviously true points. The problem is people try to put the blame on one side of the ball or just one person. In the end this year's team is completely different than previous years' teams. You cannot compare them. Also, you cannot put the blame of a loss soley on one person. Rodgers blew it, it was an awful throw. McCarthy had awful play calls on their last FG. The defense truly blew it on coverage with 2 deep balls.

Go on though, ignore logic. Keep those blinders on. keep thinking there is only one answer to this question. Stay close minded. Keep beating a dead horse Okay the game is over. Let's all jump on here and watch Sho Nuff argue with some other tools criticizing this game. Afterall, you dorks have another game of stats to analyze and dool over as you try desperately to make your point heard. Ignore the fact that your efforts are worthless as neither side will cave. Ever. This will be a debate that we will never know the answer to, but people will still try to debate it.

Here we go...

Enter Sho Nuff: Their defense is the problem!

Then enter Ookie and ScottyFargo: Rodgers blew it at the end! Bad throw!

Both are obviously true points. The problem is people try to put the blame on one side of the ball or just one person. In the end this year's team is completely different than previous years' teams. You cannot compare them. Also, you cannot put the blame of a loss soley on one person. Rodgers blew it, it was an awful throw. McCarthy had awful play calls on their last FG. The defense truly blew it on coverage with 2 deep balls.

Go on though, ignore logic. Keep those blinders on. keep thinking there is only one answer to this question. Stay close minded. Keep beating a dead horse

We'll never know? Actually we know quite well.By your logic, you can never analyze anything. Way too complicated, too many variables, lets just not even try.

We knew it was a bad move back in June. Keep Favre, extend Rogers, play football. Going into the season with 3 qbs, 0 nfl starts, that was a good move? Taking a 13-3 NFC championship game team, and rebuilding? And yes starting a QB with 0 NFL starts is rebuilding.

It was wrong on June 20th, and it's wrong now. And it has nothing to do with todays game, or Rodgers stats. He's been great.

So if he has been great...can you admit the rest of the team is not that good and that even #4 would not make this team a contender.And if they are not a contender...why even bring him back?

so wait is TT a good GM or isnt he?you kill me.

Its been explained to you...some of it is on TT of course.But even TT cannot go out there and tackle on a kickoff.

Even TT cannot make Charles Woodson (who most would agree has played pretty damn well this year) go up and cover Steve Smith better than he did.

TT cannot just see the future and see Pickett and Hawk and Barnett struggling. Barnett then getting hurt and Jenkins getting hurt early in the year and being out for the season.

He has his faults...IMO, mostly in his failure to build the Oline and some others.

But this thread is not just lets bash TT about the rest of the team is it? Its about how the decision is to go with Rodgers.

 

[sho nuff]

Rodgers is not the problem in Green Bay. Coaching decisions, preperation on the part of the defense, offensive line injuries and struggles, and the lack of any type of identity on defense are the problems. Rodgers is playing at an elite level. Anybody who doesn't see that is either blind or fishing. Rodgers is playing tough, accurate football. He's making good decisions. He's putting the ball on the money.

The defense can't stop anyone. I'd say losing Cullen Jenkins and Corey Williams are as big a factors in the Packers losing record as losing Favre. Coaching decisions also seem to be a problem. A team that loses 4 games be 4 points or less needs to look at the coaching.

Also, penalties, penalties, penalties. Although Rodgers doesn't get a pass on that either because he had two delay of games yesterday. But overall he's played at a playoff caliber level. The rest of the team has come backwards quite a bit in terms of being ready to play, be that from loss of personnel, penalties, or the inability of the coaching staff to have the team mentally prepared.

Shhhh...you can't say such things. There are several here who think its just me who feels this way.Jenkins yes...Williams? To an extent. He really has not done much since leaving. I said it was a mistake not to sign him last year, and still feel that way.

But he was not a run stuffer at all. Maybe he helps a bit in the pass rush in 3rd down situations from the middle. But Jolly is the better run stopping DT.

Agreed on penalties...this team has been completely undisciplined.

 

[sho nuff]

So if he has been great...can you admit the rest of the team is not that good and that even #4 would not make this team a contender.And if they are not a contender...why even bring him back?

Go back to June 20th, like 260 posts ago by you.13-3 team, Favre playing at a very high level, ready to come back. With a team that had been so close, the backup with 0 starts, bringing him back was the best move. Extend Rodgers. And give it another shot. Rodgers isn't going anywhere. He'd be fine next year. TT made an ego move. Now if you want to look at this year, I think the circus has affected the Packers. They had largely the same team coming back. Training camp was largely a media disaster. TT put Rodgers under a mountain of pressure. Maybe Rodgers is feeling some of the weight of replacing Favre? Of it being an unpopular move? It's hard enough to replace a legend, but in the matter TT handled it, it made it 100x worse. You even said the Packers would have been better in the short term with Favre. As I've said 20 times, welcome Favre back, extend Rodgers. It's win-win, and I do feel like the Packers would be better off then 5-7. A QB isn't just about passer rating. It's leadership. Trust. Intangibles. Matt Ryan doesn't have the strongest arm, he's not the biggest, the fastest. But he has some leadership qualities that have given the players around him confidence. Falcons believe they have a chance to win. So do the Jets. I'm not saying Rodgers doesn't or won't have it, but I'm not a number of Packers were not pleased with how Brett was dealt. Wanted him back. If you went into the locker room June 20th, and ask who you want your QB to be, 99% would have said Favre. They've gone to war with him, they were so close to the SB, you're joking yourself if you don't think so. Rodgers has largely saved TTs ### with his good play. That doesn't mean it was the best move. We could be talking about Rodgers playing well next year, while Favre had the Packers heading to the playoffs this year. Again, you can't blame Rodgers for anything. He's done nothing wrong. It's 100% on TT. I have no faults with Rodgers. TT blew it on this one, and Rodgers playing well has masked that a little. But on June 20th, the correct course of action was very clear.

You can keep saying extend Rodgers and he was not going anywhere...it won't make it fact.And if the circus affected GB...then the team was not as tough between the ears either. You want to see tough. Look at the 2008 Giants and how they played after their prima donna WR shot himself in the leg.If Rodgers is feeling all that pressure, he sure is not showing it. They might be better than 5-7, but I doubt by much...and ol #4 would not be helping the D or special teams either.Again...just admit the team is not as good as last year. Its easy to do...many others have done it.

 

[ScottyFargo]

So if he has been great...can you admit the rest of the team is not that good and that even #4 would not make this team a contender.And if they are not a contender...why even bring him back?

Go back to June 20th, like 260 posts ago by you.13-3 team, Favre playing at a very high level, ready to come back. With a team that had been so close, the backup with 0 starts, bringing him back was the best move. Extend Rodgers. And give it another shot. Rodgers isn't going anywhere. He'd be fine next year. TT made an ego move. Now if you want to look at this year, I think the circus has affected the Packers. They had largely the same team coming back. Training camp was largely a media disaster. TT put Rodgers under a mountain of pressure. Maybe Rodgers is feeling some of the weight of replacing Favre? Of it being an unpopular move? It's hard enough to replace a legend, but in the matter TT handled it, it made it 100x worse. You even said the Packers would have been better in the short term with Favre. As I've said 20 times, welcome Favre back, extend Rodgers. It's win-win, and I do feel like the Packers would be better off then 5-7. A QB isn't just about passer rating. It's leadership. Trust. Intangibles. Matt Ryan doesn't have the strongest arm, he's not the biggest, the fastest. But he has some leadership qualities that have given the players around him confidence. Falcons believe they have a chance to win. So do the Jets. I'm not saying Rodgers doesn't or won't have it, but I'm not a number of Packers were not pleased with how Brett was dealt. Wanted him back. If you went into the locker room June 20th, and ask who you want your QB to be, 99% would have said Favre. They've gone to war with him, they were so close to the SB, you're joking yourself if you don't think so. Rodgers has largely saved TTs ### with his good play. That doesn't mean it was the best move. We could be talking about Rodgers playing well next year, while Favre had the Packers heading to the playoffs this year. Again, you can't blame Rodgers for anything. He's done nothing wrong. It's 100% on TT. I have no faults with Rodgers. TT blew it on this one, and Rodgers playing well has masked that a little. But on June 20th, the correct course of action was very clear.

This is a pretty good post and summary. Rodgers' play has been exceptional, aside from the losing drives he's run to cap some 4 games off but those will probably come with time. I don't think the danger of Rodgers' not signing an extension is so great that you had to toss Favre aside so soon. Ego was what caused that.

 

[Ookie Pringle]

Bottom line, it was GB's defense that put GB in the hole on the road, not Rodgers.

Really. All is pretty much equal going into second half. What really goes wrong in the second half. Let's take a look.NO drives and scores. GB (2 plays) throws a pick and gives NO the ball on the 3yd line. (Defense at fault?)NO Gets 3 yds and scores.GB (3 plays) throws a pick and gives NO the ball on the 29yd line (Defense at fault?)NO Green bay defense gets pick on (2nd play) to get GB back in the game.GB (3 plays) and a punt later NO has the ball again. (Defense at fault?)11 minutes into the quarter and the GB offense manages to get off 8 plays. You don't think after all things being fairly equal in the first half it wasn't the Offense that let the defense down?

How can anyone take your seriously?You have argued that the defense and running game have not dropped off that much from last season.You are now arguing for the defense in a game they gave up 24 points in the first half.Seriously...step away from the box scores and watch a few games man.

Why not take me seriously. The defense gave up points but most Defenses have against the saints. I've posted Facts when someone tried to blame the poor field position on Frost.I posted facts to show where the D kept them in other games.I've watched games so I know when someone says it's Frost that killed them field position wise I just have to get the data instead of take it as fact.Nice try though.

31 through 1 drive of the 2nd half is alot of points. You cannot just claim its Rodgers and the offense when the defense was not ever getting off the field. And that was with the offense churning out long time consuming drives (a point others tried to use in the past in saying how Rodgers was hurting the defense). In this case...the offense had done its job to that point and the D still gave up 31 to that point.As for not taking you seriously...read your posts about the defense and running game early in the season. Its all based on box scores. But if you had read any of the game day threads and threads after...the complaints were about the defense and running game. And not just from me...but nearly every fan of this team.Not all the poor field position is on Frost...some of it is as he has not been that great this year. He was brought in more for his directional punting...and he even struggled with that early in the year. He does not have the big leg that Ryan had...though, Ryan often punted too low and out punted the coverage and gave up returns.He is not the whole problem...but he is part of it.

Watched first quarter today before I had to leave. Saw another third quarter like with the Saints. Offense struggling and defense kept them in the game. THink the punt average was 42+ which is close to league average if I recall right. Offense a lot of three and outs before clicking in the last minutes of the quarter.

There were a few three and outs, but they had a 18-11 minute lead in time of possession at the half. Nonetheless, I expect anyone whito could blame last week's loss on the offense could probably find a way to delude themselves again this week.

Go ahead and give Rodgers the free pass. The biggest drop was at the QB position this year. The funny thing is many say it was expected but will not except it. This is getting really boring and useless since some are giving the free pass. Oh bad field position was frosts fault. Post facts showing it wasn't and then people complain your using facts.

Favre never played the position better than Rodgers did today at any time in the past five seasons or so.

January 4, 2004, NFC Wildcard vs. Seattle. A game Al Harris could have never won with his overtime pick-six without Favre's fourth-quarter heroics. Trailing 20-13 in the fourth quarter, Favre took the Packers on touchdown drives of 60 and 51 yards to give the Packers a 27-20 lead. Favre delivered 319 passing yards and a touchdown throw. 26 for 38 with 1 TD and 0 ints.December 24, 2004 at Minnesota. With the NFC North championship at stake in hostilie territory, Favre led the Packers through a legendary game with six lead changes and five ties. After a pick-six by Minnesota's Chris Claiborne gave the Vikings a 31-24 lead, Favre led the Packers on an 80-yard drive, ending it with a fourth-down scoring pass to Donald Driver with 3.34 left. Then, he led a 76-yard drive that ended the game with a 29-yard Ryan Longwell field goal that produced a 34-31 division-clinching win.30 for 43 for 365 yards, 3tds 1 intThat same year he was 20 for 29 with 236 yards 4 tds and 0 ints leading the Packers to a win against the Vikings. October 29, 2007 at Denver. In a city where the Packers had never won, in a week where Favre's arm strength had been challenged by a reporter, Favre threw an 82-yard scoring pass to Greg Jennings on the first play of overtime to defeat the Broncos, 19-13 - Favre's 39th comeback. 21 for 27 with 331 yards 2TDs 0 ints.Also last year he was 28 for 45 with 369 yards 3 tds 0 ints in a win against SD.Last year 31 for 41 with 381 yards 3 tds 0 ints 0 in a win against DetroitLast year 33 for 46 with 351 yards 3 tds 0 ints in a win against MinnesotaLast year 18 for 23 with 173 yards 3 tds 0 ints in a playoff win against Seattle200824 for 34 with 289 6 TDs 1 int in a win against Arizona.I can go on but please don't tell us that Favre never played better in the last 5 years than Rodgers did yesterday.

 

[Ookie Pringle]

Rodgers is not the problem in Green Bay. Coaching decisions, preperation on the part of the defense, offensive line injuries and struggles, and the lack of any type of identity on defense are the problems. Rodgers is playing at an elite level. Anybody who doesn't see that is either blind or fishing. Rodgers is playing tough, accurate football. He's making good decisions. He's putting the ball on the money.

The defense can't stop anyone. I'd say losing Cullen Jenkins and Corey Williams are as big a factors in the Packers losing record as losing Favre. Coaching decisions also seem to be a problem. A team that loses 4 games be 4 points or less needs to look at the coaching.

Also, penalties, penalties, penalties. Although Rodgers doesn't get a pass on that either because he had two delay of games yesterday. But overall he's played at a playoff caliber level. The rest of the team has come backwards quite a bit in terms of being ready to play, be that from loss of personnel, penalties, or the inability of the coaching staff to have the team mentally prepared.

Shhhh...you can't say such things.

The Shhhh.....shtick is getting old.

 

[sho nuff]

Rodgers is not the problem in Green Bay. Coaching decisions, preperation on the part of the defense, offensive line injuries and struggles, and the lack of any type of identity on defense are the problems. Rodgers is playing at an elite level. Anybody who doesn't see that is either blind or fishing. Rodgers is playing tough, accurate football. He's making good decisions. He's putting the ball on the money.

The defense can't stop anyone. I'd say losing Cullen Jenkins and Corey Williams are as big a factors in the Packers losing record as losing Favre. Coaching decisions also seem to be a problem. A team that loses 4 games be 4 points or less needs to look at the coaching.

Also, penalties, penalties, penalties. Although Rodgers doesn't get a pass on that either because he had two delay of games yesterday. But overall he's played at a playoff caliber level. The rest of the team has come backwards quite a bit in terms of being ready to play, be that from loss of personnel, penalties, or the inability of the coaching staff to have the team mentally prepared.

Shhhh...you can't say such things.

The Shhhh.....shtick is getting old.

As is you not bringing anything to the table.Its obviously true since it seems such things must have been said quietly as you and a select few seem to think its only me who suppors the Packers decision.

And holy crap I just looked outside and its snowing here.

 

[Ookie Pringle]

Rodgers is not the problem in Green Bay. Coaching decisions, preperation on the part of the defense, offensive line injuries and struggles, and the lack of any type of identity on defense are the problems. Rodgers is playing at an elite level. Anybody who doesn't see that is either blind or fishing. Rodgers is playing tough, accurate football. He's making good decisions. He's putting the ball on the money.

The defense can't stop anyone. I'd say losing Cullen Jenkins and Corey Williams are as big a factors in the Packers losing record as losing Favre. Coaching decisions also seem to be a problem. A team that loses 4 games be 4 points or less needs to look at the coaching.

Also, penalties, penalties, penalties. Although Rodgers doesn't get a pass on that either because he had two delay of games yesterday. But overall he's played at a playoff caliber level. The rest of the team has come backwards quite a bit in terms of being ready to play, be that from loss of personnel, penalties, or the inability of the coaching staff to have the team mentally prepared.

Shhhh...you can't say such things.

The Shhhh.....shtick is getting old.

As is you not bringing anything to the table.

Good point, I can't compete with your post count in this thread.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Looks terrible.

 

[Ookie Pringle]

Good summary on Rodgers play yesterday from Tom Silverstein of the Journal Sentinel.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/35294284.html

Late comeback eludes Rodgers

Final drive frustrates quarterback

By Tom Silverstein of the Journal Sentinel

Posted: Nov. 30, 2008

Green Bay - His statistics are outstanding, his throws are more often than not on the money and his scrambling ability has given the Green Bay Packers an offensive instrument they haven't had for many years.

But what Aaron Rodgers hasn't been able to add this season is the ability to overcome all else and lead his team to victory.

Every great quarterback has done it many times over during his career, sometimes three or four times in a single season, and over the years Packers fans got used to seeing it regularly from Brett Favre. In his first season as the Packers' starting quarterback, Rodgers has not generated a fourth-quarter winning drive and hasn't made a magical play that can be considered a defining moment.

With 1 minute 48 seconds left Sunday at Lambeau Field, Carolina Panthers quarterback Jake Delhomme looked left, didn't like what he saw and then found receiver Steve Smith deep down the middle for a 54-yard gain that set up the winning points. Smith made a Hall of Fame catch, but it was Delhomme who found him one-on-one with a safety and took the shot.

Rodgers got the ball back at Green Bay's 17 with 1:24 to go and two timeouts, but on first down he sailed a pass to wide-open receiver Greg Jennings that would have given the Packers at first down at their 40-yard line and stopped the clock. On the next play, he scrambled away from the pressure of defensive end Julius Peppers and underthrew an open Donald Driver for an interception.

His opportunity for greatness ended in two plays.

"To be honest with you, I'm getting kind of tired of learning from experiences like this," Rodgers said. "It's pretty frustrating when you lose games like that. You've got to be critical of yourself. I feel like I competed today but I didn't throw the ball as well as I wanted to at times.

"As a quarterback, you want the ball in your hands under 2 minutes with a chance to lead your team to victory."

This was not Rodgers' first opportunity at leading the Packers all the way back from a deficit late in the game. He couldn't do it against Tampa Bay, he couldn't do it against Tennessee and he couldn't do it against Minnesota.

It might be too much to ask of a first-year starter to resurrect a team with weaknesses in many others areas, but this is what general manager Ted Thompson and coach Mike McCarthy went for when they decided enough was enough with the equivocating Favre.

There were any number of things on which to pin the 35-31 loss to the Panthers, and no one can sneeze at Rodgers' numbers (29 of 45 for 298 yards and three touchdowns with one interception), but finishing games is what counts.

"I think it's a unit thing, offensively," offensive coordinator Joe Philbin said. "I don't look at it as an Aaron Rodgers thing. He was part of the reason we played well in the second half and part of the reason we didn't win the game, as were the other 10 guys."

Rodgers started the game uncharacteristically wild, overthrowing receivers on his first two attempts and nearly throwing an interception on another high throw on his third. By the time the half was over, he had completed 12 of 20 for 88 yards and a touchdown, completing just two passes of 10 or more yards and none for more than 17.

In the third quarter, he started lighting up the Panthers with mid-range throws, eventually leading the Packers back from a 21-10 deficit to a 21-21 tie with 5:22 left in the third quarter. Among his throws were two perfectly lofted fade routes, one to tight end Donald Lee for a touchdown and the other to receiver Greg Jennings for a 2-point conversion.

"I thought he played well," Packers coach Mike McCarthy said. "I thought he did a very good job of managing at the line of scrimmage the play selection that we had in the game. He kept us in favorable play selection. He did a good job of spreading the ball around. He didn't take chances. I thought he played very well."

With 2 minutes to go, Rodgers had led the offense to 285 yards and 21 points in the second half. His 21-yard scoring strike to Greg Jennings at the start of the fourth quarter gave the Packers their first lead at 28-21.

After Carolina tied the score a short while later, Rodgers took the Packers from their 20 all the way to the Carolina 9, throwing completions of 17, 17 and 13 yards to Ruvell Martin, Jennings and Donald Driver, respectively.

On first and goal at the Carolina 9, however, Rodgers made a critical mistake. He lost track of the play clock and let it expire, causing the Packers to take a 5-yard delay-of-game penalty. There's no telling what could have happened on the play Rodgers didn't get off, but the penalty easily could have prevented a touchdown.

"I'm not exactly sure what happened," Philbin said of the delay of game. "You hope not to get a delay of game in that situation."

The Packers got to the 1 on the drive and given the success Rodgers had throwing near the end zone earlier in the half and the six-man defensive line the Panthers were using, a play-action pass seemed logical. But McCarthy also had success last week running it up the middle on the goal line. He chose to give it to his running back instead of his quarterback.

The Packers settled for a field goal and after Carolina scored to take the lead, the stage was set for Rodgers to score his first winning drive in the final 2 minutes. But it was over almost as fast as it started.

"He played good football," tackle Mark Tauscher said of Rodgers. "We put ourselves in great position to win and we didn't find a way to finish it off. That's the reason we are 5-7. I don't think anyone thinks Aaron didn't play a good football game. We just didn't do enough to win."

 

[packersfan]

Excellent article by Silverstein and this goes back to the point I made in the summer that by taking such a hard-line stance with Favre, Thompson (and McCarthy) were setting Rodgers up to fail. This was supposed to be a Super Bowl contending team and anything less than that would have to be viewed as a major disappointment. The bar had been set very high and Rodgers couldn't afford to fail to reach it or else he also would be viewed as having failed. That's an unfair burden to place on a first-year starter but that was the deal when Thompson decided to boot Favre out the door.

As far as the poster who said Thompson doesn't know what he's doing, I think that's inaccurate. He most clearly has a plan and it was doing well - when he had Favre as his QB. But I highly doubt he'll be winning any GM of the Year awards this year after turning a Super Bowl contender into garbage in less than a season. My issues with Thompson are threefold:

1. His horrible handling of the Favre situation (Favre also deserves major criticism for this as well but I don't believe Thompson should be held blameless like so many have done).

2. His failure to act aggressively and acquire Tony Gonzalez - even if the Chiefs tried to change the deal at the last minute.

3. His failure to upgrade the talent level on the defensive line in the offseason.

This hasn't been a good year for Ted Thompson and the Packers are suffering greatly because of it.

 

[mozzy84]

I love hearing sho say over and over how bad the packers are.

 

[sho nuff]

Good summary on Rodgers play yesterday from Tom Silverstein of the Journal Sentinel.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/35294284.html

Late comeback eludes Rodgers

Final drive frustrates quarterback

By Tom Silverstein of the Journal Sentinel

Posted: Nov. 30, 2008

Green Bay - His statistics are outstanding, his throws are more often than not on the money and his scrambling ability has given the Green Bay Packers an offensive instrument they haven't had for many years.

But what Aaron Rodgers hasn't been able to add this season is the ability to overcome all else and lead his team to victory.

Every great quarterback has done it many times over during his career, sometimes three or four times in a single season, and over the years Packers fans got used to seeing it regularly from Brett Favre. In his first season as the Packers' starting quarterback, Rodgers has not generated a fourth-quarter winning drive and hasn't made a magical play that can be considered a defining moment.

With 1 minute 48 seconds left Sunday at Lambeau Field, Carolina Panthers quarterback Jake Delhomme looked left, didn't like what he saw and then found receiver Steve Smith deep down the middle for a 54-yard gain that set up the winning points. Smith made a Hall of Fame catch, but it was Delhomme who found him one-on-one with a safety and took the shot.

Rodgers got the ball back at Green Bay's 17 with 1:24 to go and two timeouts, but on first down he sailed a pass to wide-open receiver Greg Jennings that would have given the Packers at first down at their 40-yard line and stopped the clock. On the next play, he scrambled away from the pressure of defensive end Julius Peppers and underthrew an open Donald Driver for an interception.

His opportunity for greatness ended in two plays.

"To be honest with you, I'm getting kind of tired of learning from experiences like this," Rodgers said. "It's pretty frustrating when you lose games like that. You've got to be critical of yourself. I feel like I competed today but I didn't throw the ball as well as I wanted to at times.

"As a quarterback, you want the ball in your hands under 2 minutes with a chance to lead your team to victory."

This was not Rodgers' first opportunity at leading the Packers all the way back from a deficit late in the game. He couldn't do it against Tampa Bay, he couldn't do it against Tennessee and he couldn't do it against Minnesota.

It might be too much to ask of a first-year starter to resurrect a team with weaknesses in many others areas, but this is what general manager Ted Thompson and coach Mike McCarthy went for when they decided enough was enough with the equivocating Favre.

There were any number of things on which to pin the 35-31 loss to the Panthers, and no one can sneeze at Rodgers' numbers (29 of 45 for 298 yards and three touchdowns with one interception), but finishing games is what counts.

"I think it's a unit thing, offensively," offensive coordinator Joe Philbin said. "I don't look at it as an Aaron Rodgers thing. He was part of the reason we played well in the second half and part of the reason we didn't win the game, as were the other 10 guys."

Rodgers started the game uncharacteristically wild, overthrowing receivers on his first two attempts and nearly throwing an interception on another high throw on his third. By the time the half was over, he had completed 12 of 20 for 88 yards and a touchdown, completing just two passes of 10 or more yards and none for more than 17.

In the third quarter, he started lighting up the Panthers with mid-range throws, eventually leading the Packers back from a 21-10 deficit to a 21-21 tie with 5:22 left in the third quarter. Among his throws were two perfectly lofted fade routes, one to tight end Donald Lee for a touchdown and the other to receiver Greg Jennings for a 2-point conversion.

"I thought he played well," Packers coach Mike McCarthy said. "I thought he did a very good job of managing at the line of scrimmage the play selection that we had in the game. He kept us in favorable play selection. He did a good job of spreading the ball around. He didn't take chances. I thought he played very well."

With 2 minutes to go, Rodgers had led the offense to 285 yards and 21 points in the second half. His 21-yard scoring strike to Greg Jennings at the start of the fourth quarter gave the Packers their first lead at 28-21.

After Carolina tied the score a short while later, Rodgers took the Packers from their 20 all the way to the Carolina 9, throwing completions of 17, 17 and 13 yards to Ruvell Martin, Jennings and Donald Driver, respectively.

On first and goal at the Carolina 9, however, Rodgers made a critical mistake. He lost track of the play clock and let it expire, causing the Packers to take a 5-yard delay-of-game penalty. There's no telling what could have happened on the play Rodgers didn't get off, but the penalty easily could have prevented a touchdown.

"I'm not exactly sure what happened," Philbin said of the delay of game. "You hope not to get a delay of game in that situation."

The Packers got to the 1 on the drive and given the success Rodgers had throwing near the end zone earlier in the half and the six-man defensive line the Panthers were using, a play-action pass seemed logical. But McCarthy also had success last week running it up the middle on the goal line. He chose to give it to his running back instead of his quarterback.

The Packers settled for a field goal and after Carolina scored to take the lead, the stage was set for Rodgers to score his first winning drive in the final 2 minutes. But it was over almost as fast as it started.

"He played good football," tackle Mark Tauscher said of Rodgers. "We put ourselves in great position to win and we didn't find a way to finish it off. That's the reason we are 5-7. I don't think anyone thinks Aaron didn't play a good football game. We just didn't do enough to win."

I almost stopped when he claimed Smith was one on one with a safety. Yes...Woodson was playing safety some...but it was Charles Woodson...not just some non-coverage safety back there.Delhomme threw the ball to a well covered man and his man made the catch.

Nice article...and yes, Rodgers will have to do such things.

But if the special teams and D does not give up the quick TD with under 2 minutes left. We would be talking today how Rodgers did well to lead the team to a win late in the 4th quarter.

 

[sho nuff]

Excellent article by Silverstein and this goes back to the point I made in the summer that by taking such a hard-line stance with Favre, Thompson (and McCarthy) were setting Rodgers up to fail. This was supposed to be a Super Bowl contending team and anything less than that would have to be viewed as a major disappointment. The bar had been set very high and Rodgers couldn't afford to fail to reach it or else he also would be viewed as having failed. That's an unfair burden to place on a first-year starter but that was the deal when Thompson decided to boot Favre out the door. As far as the poster who said Thompson doesn't know what he's doing, I think that's inaccurate. He most clearly has a plan and it was doing well - when he had Favre as his QB. But I highly doubt he'll be winning any GM of the Year awards this year after turning a Super Bowl contender into garbage in less than a season. My issues with Thompson are threefold:1. His horrible handling of the Favre situation (Favre also deserves major criticism for this as well but I don't believe Thompson should be held blameless like so many have done).2. His failure to act aggressively and acquire Tony Gonzalez - even if the Chiefs tried to change the deal at the last minute.3. His failure to upgrade the talent level on the defensive line in the offseason.This hasn't been a good year for Ted Thompson and the Packers are suffering greatly because of it.

1. I don't know a single person who has held Thompson blameless. 2. Maybe...but most would see that as an attempt by the Chiefs to fool around with things.3. Yes, partially...but after last year, did it look like that was an issue? Even with Williams leaving, Pickett was back, Jolly (who started last year over Williams) was coming back, they expected Harrell back from day 1. DE I can see thinking they needed more here. He went at it through the draft with some young players and thought he was fine with Jenkins and KGB again. Instead, KGB was completely ineffective this year and Jenkins was out for the year early on. Some things no GM can totally anticipate. But I think both lines will obviously be the major focus this offseason.

 

[Ookie Pringle]

Bob McGinn prior to yesterdays game- Pack's cool ways yield tepid play

Green Bay - The Green Bay Packers appear to have a void in energy and leadership due in part to the controlled, conservative atmosphere favored by general manager Ted Thompson, coach Mike McCarthy and president Mark Murphy.

If you play, coach, scout or otherwise work for the Packers these days, the philosophy is rather simple.

Winning is everything, and just a year ago, the Packers had one of their most unexpectedly successful seasons ever, finishing 13-3 in the regular season and then advancing within an overtime of the Super Bowl.

Then there are expectations, written and unwritten, that define the Packers' corporate culture. Better to be seen than heard. Work hard, work smart. Team overrides all.

The Packers now find themselves with a 5-6 record. They also lack personality. They don't have much fire. In short, they're pretty blah.

A day or two after the Tennessee Titans improved to 8-0 earlier this month with an overtime victory over Green Bay, a member of their coaching-scouting departments could only shake his head at the Packers.

"I honestly feel that was the toughest team we played this year," the executive said. "Without question. I don't know how Green Bay is losing. The way they played us, I was really impressed. I expected more from them."

Once Aaron Rodgers proved himself a capable starter at quarterback, so did I. But something's missing from the 2008 Packers and it's hard to pinpoint exactly what it is.

Obviously, the deficiencies on the field are the primary reasons for the Packers' freefall back to mediocrity. The offense is ordinary. The defense is marginal. The special teams are average.

But day after day and week after week, my colleagues and I cover those areas of the team.

Still, it doesn't add up. The Packers have had their share of injuries, but nowhere near the point where it's an excuse for not having a better season.

Now some will say - in fact, they might never cease to say - that trading Brett Favre is the root of the problem. And certainly, Favre's absence has been sizable, on the field and off.

But Favre had his best chance in a decade to make the Super Bowl last year, just like he had his chance to play this season in Green Bay if he had committed by the end of April. Neither one materialized. The Packers were right to move on with a young man at the position.

I'll be the first one to admit it. I'm grasping for an answer as to why this team has lost its winning edge.

The Packers have more than enough talent to win the NFC North going away. Other than the lack of pass-rushing skills from their defensive linemen, they have the personnel of a playoff team.

Events of Monday night in New Orleans provided the origin for this column. It was a matchup of 5-5 teams from the same conference both motivated by a chance for a berth in the post-season. The Saints played with urgency; the Packers played without energy, almost like zombies.

It's dangerous to write this so soon after that game because it was the first time since December 2006 that one of McCarthy's teams had collapsed in a game that meant anything. McCarthy was dead right last week when he quibbled with those who would portray his teams as inconsistent.

The truth is, they have been consistent. Maybe too consistent. And perhaps that's some of the problem.

Thompson and McCarthy are flat-liners, particularly Thompson. If McCarthy were his own boss, my guess is that you'd see a lot more of his personality. But he isn't, and therefore he has submitted to Thompson's vision.

The capacity of Thompson to remain composed and even-keeled through even the most tumultuous of times has been both a blessing and a curse for the organization. The Packers seldom act rashly. On the other hand, they lack a degree of spontaneity and creative response.

Disciplined, dispassionate

On the field, the players selected by Thompson and coached by McCarthy perform in structured fashion. They are to be saluted for their role in minimizing the number of players involved with the legal system and the National Football League's substance-abuse policy. That discipline also carries over to the field, although the Packers do lead the NFL in penalty yardage this season.

Nevertheless, the Packers don't appear outwardly to play with emotion and they generally play without an intimidating style. Other than the Lambeau Leap, players in Green Bay don't act out. They seem systematized not to do so.

"That's not us," wide receiver Greg Jennings said last week. "After the big plays, there's not really a whole bunch of me, me, me kind of guys."

That's good. Widespread and unchecked, selfishness can wreck a team.

It can be bad, however, if players feel stifled by their environment.

Thompson returns phone calls but remains guarded. He recognizes that he must function as the face of the franchise, but it's an uncomfortable role for him. But he sets the tone for the organization.

In January, Thompson made the decision not to renew the contract of Andrew Brandt, the vice president who handled negotiations. Bright and well-spoken, Brandt sought opportunities to deal in the public arena.

His successor, Russ Ball, is regarded by previous associates as another competent executive with much to offer. But Thompson has basically placed Ball off-limits to reporters and fans, and so his voice isn't heard.

Closed for business

Under Thompson's mentor, Ron Wolf, the Packers were far more open. Wolf explained all his moves through the media to fans. Mike Holmgren trusted all his assistants to talk whenever they chose. The locker room in the 1990s was filled with vibrant, outspoken individuals.

McCarthy has taken great steps to curb the temper that got him in trouble at previous coaching stops, but perhaps he has taken it too far. You don't see the jut-jawed intensity of a Bill Cowher, the unbridled joy of a Jeff Fisher or even the controlled anger of a Bill Parcells on the Green Bay sideline.

One-on-one, McCarthy can be engaging and educational discussing the game. In public, McCarthy often comes across as stiff and uninformative. His defense gets assaulted in New Orleans and McCarthy chooses the word "disappointing."

During games, McCarthy seems almost preoccupied calling the next play or series. Opponents praise his offense as cutting edge, but on Sundays he almost seems detached.

Wolf and Holmgren used to just go off if they deemed it appropriate, and the people who buy the tickets no doubt appreciated knowing what was on their minds. It's almost as if the motto for this organization should be: "Never let them see you sweat."

Bob Harlan was the one who set the tone for the Packers for almost two decades. He was smart and accessible. He was open and fun. He understood this was an entertainment business in a one-of-a-kind setting and deemed it vital for the public to know a great deal about the organization, even if it wasn't always flattering.

Unlike Harlan, who answered his own phone, Murphy does not. He relies on his executive assistant to help him with his day and has incorporated layers of public-relations people. It's a more impersonal approach, to be sure, but standard operating procedure for an NFL team.

Given the buttoned-down climate up top, it's no surprise that it has filtered down to the coaching staff and locker room.

The assistants are allowed to do interviews two or three times a week in-season, but always with a PR person in a hallway nearby. McCarthy monitors the process in absentia. Whereas a Fritz Shurmur and many others would explain schemes and game plans to fans, the present staff is cooperative but less forthcoming.

No one to follow

As the NFL's youngest team for the third straight season, the Packers now have a very real leadership void. Gone are Favre and Rob Davis, judged in a poll of their teammates last January as the club's pre-eminent leaders. Davis works in player development, but his invaluable role as one of them can't be quite the same.

Many of the highly paid players, such as Ryan Grant, Chad Clifton and A.J. Hawk, pretty much keep to themselves. Donald Driver appears to have stepped back in this area.

"We don't have that Ray Lewis-type guy," said Jennings. "Most of us are more reserved, quiet, trying to lead by example and not by word of mouth."

This team doesn't have someone like Reggie White to gather up 45 others just before kickoff and bellow, "Now is the time! This is what I'm talking about!"

The ringleader can be a Hall of Famer ("Mean Joe" Greene in Pittsburgh, Michael Irvin in Dallas) or an aging starter such as middle linebacker Jack "Hacksaw" Reynolds for the Super Bowl-winning San Francisco 49ers in 1981.

"Jack's desire to win was so strong that it challenged his teammates to play their best," 49ers coach Bill Walsh wrote in his book, "Building a Champion." "In that sense, he lifted his teammates to a higher level."

So who's rallying the troops in Green Bay? Nick Barnett could get chippy and a little nasty, but now he's done for the season. Ryan Pickett speaks from the heart and is widely respected. Give Rodgers some success and a few more years, and he might move into a leadership role somewhat approximating that of Favre or Carolina's Jake Delhomme.

For now, that's the way it is in Green Bay. The team has talent, just not a lot of pizzazz. Apparently, that's the plan.

 

[zDragon]

Bottom line, it was GB's defense that put GB in the hole on the road, not Rodgers.

Really. All is pretty much equal going into second half. What really goes wrong in the second half. Let's take a look.NO drives and scores. GB (2 plays) throws a pick and gives NO the ball on the 3yd line. (Defense at fault?)NO Gets 3 yds and scores.GB (3 plays) throws a pick and gives NO the ball on the 29yd line (Defense at fault?)NO Green bay defense gets pick on (2nd play) to get GB back in the game.GB (3 plays) and a punt later NO has the ball again. (Defense at fault?)11 minutes into the quarter and the GB offense manages to get off 8 plays. You don't think after all things being fairly equal in the first half it wasn't the Offense that let the defense down?

How can anyone take your seriously?You have argued that the defense and running game have not dropped off that much from last season.You are now arguing for the defense in a game they gave up 24 points in the first half.Seriously...step away from the box scores and watch a few games man.

Why not take me seriously. The defense gave up points but most Defenses have against the saints. I've posted Facts when someone tried to blame the poor field position on Frost.I posted facts to show where the D kept them in other games.I've watched games so I know when someone says it's Frost that killed them field position wise I just have to get the data instead of take it as fact.Nice try though.

31 through 1 drive of the 2nd half is alot of points. You cannot just claim its Rodgers and the offense when the defense was not ever getting off the field. And that was with the offense churning out long time consuming drives (a point others tried to use in the past in saying how Rodgers was hurting the defense). In this case...the offense had done its job to that point and the D still gave up 31 to that point.As for not taking you seriously...read your posts about the defense and running game early in the season. Its all based on box scores. But if you had read any of the game day threads and threads after...the complaints were about the defense and running game. And not just from me...but nearly every fan of this team.Not all the poor field position is on Frost...some of it is as he has not been that great this year. He was brought in more for his directional punting...and he even struggled with that early in the year. He does not have the big leg that Ryan had...though, Ryan often punted too low and out punted the coverage and gave up returns.He is not the whole problem...but he is part of it.

Watched first quarter today before I had to leave. Saw another third quarter like with the Saints. Offense struggling and defense kept them in the game. THink the punt average was 42+ which is close to league average if I recall right. Offense a lot of three and outs before clicking in the last minutes of the quarter.

There were a few three and outs, but they had a 18-11 minute lead in time of possession at the half. Nonetheless, I expect anyone whito could blame last week's loss on the offense could probably find a way to delude themselves again this week.

Go ahead and give Rodgers the free pass. The biggest drop was at the QB position this year. The funny thing is many say it was expected but will not except it. This is getting really boring and useless since some are giving the free pass. Oh bad field position was frosts fault. Post facts showing it wasn't and then people complain your using facts.

I understand you only saw part of the first quarter so don't have much to go on. Rodgers engineered four straight scoring drives beginning in the third qtr. - including a 95 yard drive and two others over 75 yards - to bring the Packers back and give them a 3 point lead with under two minutes left. Favre never played the position better than Rodgers did today at any time in the past five seasons or so. He had one interception during a desperation drive at the end of the game, without which his QB rating would have (once again) been over 100. He ran the ball well, played through several huge hits, played like a veteran and put the team in a position to win the game. The Packers had a big statistical advantage over the Panthers, including huge leads in yardage and time of possession. The difference today was that the Packers special teams played poorly, especially in the second half, and Steve Smith made a couple great plays in the fourth Qtr. setting up two 1 yd touchdowns.

Everything I've seen has shown that Rodgers and the Offense did pick it up and make a game of it. I believe they only had two turn-overs in the game one pick and a fumble. You can look at the game in a couple of ways one is what happened in the very end the other is how you performed in the 1st quarter. A four point game will leave a lot of film to be reviewed.

 

[packersfan]

Excellent article by Silverstein and this goes back to the point I made in the summer that by taking such a hard-line stance with Favre, Thompson (and McCarthy) were setting Rodgers up to fail. This was supposed to be a Super Bowl contending team and anything less than that would have to be viewed as a major disappointment. The bar had been set very high and Rodgers couldn't afford to fail to reach it or else he also would be viewed as having failed. That's an unfair burden to place on a first-year starter but that was the deal when Thompson decided to boot Favre out the door. As far as the poster who said Thompson doesn't know what he's doing, I think that's inaccurate. He most clearly has a plan and it was doing well - when he had Favre as his QB. But I highly doubt he'll be winning any GM of the Year awards this year after turning a Super Bowl contender into garbage in less than a season. My issues with Thompson are threefold:1. His horrible handling of the Favre situation (Favre also deserves major criticism for this as well but I don't believe Thompson should be held blameless like so many have done).2. His failure to act aggressively and acquire Tony Gonzalez - even if the Chiefs tried to change the deal at the last minute.3. His failure to upgrade the talent level on the defensive line in the offseason.This hasn't been a good year for Ted Thompson and the Packers are suffering greatly because of it.

1. I don't know a single person who has held Thompson blameless. 2. Maybe...but most would see that as an attempt by the Chiefs to fool around with things.3. Yes, partially...but after last year, did it look like that was an issue? Even with Williams leaving, Pickett was back, Jolly (who started last year over Williams) was coming back, they expected Harrell back from day 1. DE I can see thinking they needed more here. He went at it through the draft with some young players and thought he was fine with Jenkins and KGB again. Instead, KGB was completely ineffective this year and Jenkins was out for the year early on. Some things no GM can totally anticipate. But I think both lines will obviously be the major focus this offseason.

1. I know quite a few, especially in this forum, who have absolved Thompson of responsibility and pin the blame for that mess on Favre.2. I would agree, but at the end of the day you need to be aggressive to make moves that will clearly help your team improve. Thompson, in my opinion, failed badly.3. You forgot to mention his No. 1 pick from last year who looks like a fat bust. Thompson let Williams go and didn't make enough moves in the offseason to ensure the defensive front had depth. That's been a huge issue this year.

 

[Ookie Pringle]

Bottom line, it was GB's defense that put GB in the hole on the road, not Rodgers.

Really. All is pretty much equal going into second half. What really goes wrong in the second half. Let's take a look.NO drives and scores. GB (2 plays) throws a pick and gives NO the ball on the 3yd line. (Defense at fault?)NO Gets 3 yds and scores.GB (3 plays) throws a pick and gives NO the ball on the 29yd line (Defense at fault?)NO Green bay defense gets pick on (2nd play) to get GB back in the game.GB (3 plays) and a punt later NO has the ball again. (Defense at fault?)11 minutes into the quarter and the GB offense manages to get off 8 plays. You don't think after all things being fairly equal in the first half it wasn't the Offense that let the defense down?

How can anyone take your seriously?You have argued that the defense and running game have not dropped off that much from last season.You are now arguing for the defense in a game they gave up 24 points in the first half.Seriously...step away from the box scores and watch a few games man.

Why not take me seriously. The defense gave up points but most Defenses have against the saints. I've posted Facts when someone tried to blame the poor field position on Frost.I posted facts to show where the D kept them in other games.I've watched games so I know when someone says it's Frost that killed them field position wise I just have to get the data instead of take it as fact.Nice try though.

31 through 1 drive of the 2nd half is alot of points. You cannot just claim its Rodgers and the offense when the defense was not ever getting off the field. And that was with the offense churning out long time consuming drives (a point others tried to use in the past in saying how Rodgers was hurting the defense). In this case...the offense had done its job to that point and the D still gave up 31 to that point.As for not taking you seriously...read your posts about the defense and running game early in the season. Its all based on box scores. But if you had read any of the game day threads and threads after...the complaints were about the defense and running game. And not just from me...but nearly every fan of this team.Not all the poor field position is on Frost...some of it is as he has not been that great this year. He was brought in more for his directional punting...and he even struggled with that early in the year. He does not have the big leg that Ryan had...though, Ryan often punted too low and out punted the coverage and gave up returns.He is not the whole problem...but he is part of it.

Watched first quarter today before I had to leave. Saw another third quarter like with the Saints. Offense struggling and defense kept them in the game. THink the punt average was 42+ which is close to league average if I recall right. Offense a lot of three and outs before clicking in the last minutes of the quarter.

There were a few three and outs, but they had a 18-11 minute lead in time of possession at the half. Nonetheless, I expect anyone whito could blame last week's loss on the offense could probably find a way to delude themselves again this week.

Go ahead and give Rodgers the free pass. The biggest drop was at the QB position this year. The funny thing is many say it was expected but will not except it. This is getting really boring and useless since some are giving the free pass. Oh bad field position was frosts fault. Post facts showing it wasn't and then people complain your using facts.

I understand you only saw part of the first quarter so don't have much to go on. Rodgers engineered four straight scoring drives beginning in the third qtr. - including a 95 yard drive and two others over 75 yards - to bring the Packers back and give them a 3 point lead with under two minutes left. Favre never played the position better than Rodgers did today at any time in the past five seasons or so. He had one interception during a desperation drive at the end of the game, without which his QB rating would have (once again) been over 100. He ran the ball well, played through several huge hits, played like a veteran and put the team in a position to win the game. The Packers had a big statistical advantage over the Panthers, including huge leads in yardage and time of possession. The difference today was that the Packers special teams played poorly, especially in the second half, and Steve Smith made a couple great plays in the fourth Qtr. setting up two 1 yd touchdowns.

Everything I've seen has shown that Rodgers and the Offense did pick it up and make a game of it. I believe they only had two turn-overs in the game one pick and a fumble. You can look at the game in a couple of ways one is what happened in the very end the other is how you performed in the 1st quarter. A four point game will leave a lot of film to be reviewed.

The first half could have been better for the Packers.Rodgers started the game uncharacteristically wild, overthrowing receivers on his first two attempts and nearly throwing an interception on another high throw on his third. By the time the half was over, he had completed 12 of 20 for 88 yards and a touchdown, completing just two passes of 10 or more yards and none for more than 17.

 

[zDragon]

Rodgers is not the problem in Green Bay. Coaching decisions, preperation on the part of the defense, offensive line injuries and struggles, and the lack of any type of identity on defense are the problems. Rodgers is playing at an elite level. Anybody who doesn't see that is either blind or fishing. Rodgers is playing tough, accurate football. He's making good decisions. He's putting the ball on the money. The defense can't stop anyone. I'd say losing Cullen Jenkins and Corey Williams are as big a factors in the Packers losing record as losing Favre. Coaching decisions also seem to be a problem. A team that loses 4 games be 4 points or less needs to look at the coaching.Also, penalties, penalties, penalties. Although Rodgers doesn't get a pass on that either because he had two delay of games yesterday. But overall he's played at a playoff caliber level. The rest of the team has come backwards quite a bit in terms of being ready to play, be that from loss of personnel, penalties, or the inability of the coaching staff to have the team mentally prepared.

Panthers defense gave up over 30 points today and won. Jets defense is giving up 2 points less per game than the packers last I checked yet they are winning.Sure the Packers defense is not the Steelers defense but they are also not the Texans, Lions, Rams or Chiefs.Maybe they are not coming out ready to play because they lost a great leader on the field leader. Out of curiosity how many coaching changes where they from last year to this year. Pretty sure it's the same HC but outside that I wouldn't know. Face it. Rodgers was a drop at the QB position this year. He shows great flashes but why does it have to be everything but Rodgers?

 

[sho nuff]

Excellent article by Silverstein and this goes back to the point I made in the summer that by taking such a hard-line stance with Favre, Thompson (and McCarthy) were setting Rodgers up to fail. This was supposed to be a Super Bowl contending team and anything less than that would have to be viewed as a major disappointment. The bar had been set very high and Rodgers couldn't afford to fail to reach it or else he also would be viewed as having failed. That's an unfair burden to place on a first-year starter but that was the deal when Thompson decided to boot Favre out the door. As far as the poster who said Thompson doesn't know what he's doing, I think that's inaccurate. He most clearly has a plan and it was doing well - when he had Favre as his QB. But I highly doubt he'll be winning any GM of the Year awards this year after turning a Super Bowl contender into garbage in less than a season. My issues with Thompson are threefold:1. His horrible handling of the Favre situation (Favre also deserves major criticism for this as well but I don't believe Thompson should be held blameless like so many have done).2. His failure to act aggressively and acquire Tony Gonzalez - even if the Chiefs tried to change the deal at the last minute.3. His failure to upgrade the talent level on the defensive line in the offseason.This hasn't been a good year for Ted Thompson and the Packers are suffering greatly because of it.

1. I don't know a single person who has held Thompson blameless. 2. Maybe...but most would see that as an attempt by the Chiefs to fool around with things.3. Yes, partially...but after last year, did it look like that was an issue? Even with Williams leaving, Pickett was back, Jolly (who started last year over Williams) was coming back, they expected Harrell back from day 1. DE I can see thinking they needed more here. He went at it through the draft with some young players and thought he was fine with Jenkins and KGB again. Instead, KGB was completely ineffective this year and Jenkins was out for the year early on. Some things no GM can totally anticipate. But I think both lines will obviously be the major focus this offseason.

1. I know quite a few, especially in this forum, who have absolved Thompson of responsibility and pin the blame for that mess on Favre.2. I would agree, but at the end of the day you need to be aggressive to make moves that will clearly help your team improve. Thompson, in my opinion, failed badly.3. You forgot to mention his No. 1 pick from last year who looks like a fat bust. Thompson let Williams go and didn't make enough moves in the offseason to ensure the defensive front had depth. That's been a huge issue this year.

1. I would agree, those people have their heads in the sand. While I don't kill him for the move, some of it and for certain it being that big of a mess is on Thompson too...as the GM, to play it out in the media like that and let it get to that point is not a good thing.2. Yeah, at the same time, I don't want my GM being played for a fool by another team and have them walk all over him.3. I mentioned they thought Harrell would be back for day 1. He thought he had enough depth even at DT with Jenkins being able to play there. Jenkins getting hurt kills that for sure. And KGB being a shell of his former self did not help one bit.

 

[zDragon]

Okay the game is over. Let's all jump on here and watch Sho Nuff argue with some other tools criticizing this game. Afterall, you dorks have another game of stats to analyze and dool over as you try desperately to make your point heard. Ignore the fact that your efforts are worthless as neither side will cave. Ever. This will be a debate that we will never know the answer to, but people will still try to debate it. Here we go...Enter Sho Nuff: Their defense is the problem! Then enter his opponents, also tools: Rodgers blew it at the end! Bad throw!Both are obviously true points. The problem is people try to put the blame on one side of the ball or just one person. In the end this year's team is completely different than previous years' teams. You cannot compare them. Also, you cannot put the blame of a loss soley on one person. Rodgers blew it, it was an awful throw. McCarthy had awful play calls on their last FG. The defense truly blew it on coverage with 2 deep balls. Go on though, ignore logic. Keep those blinders on. keep thinking there is only one answer to this question. Stay close minded. Keep beating a dead horse Okay the game is over. Let's all jump on here and watch Sho Nuff argue with some other tools criticizing this game. Afterall, you dorks have another game of stats to analyze and dool over as you try desperately to make your point heard. Ignore the fact that your efforts are worthless as neither side will cave. Ever. This will be a debate that we will never know the answer to, but people will still try to debate it. Here we go...Enter Sho Nuff: Their defense is the problem! Then enter Ookie and ScottyFargo: Rodgers blew it at the end! Bad throw!Both are obviously true points. The problem is people try to put the blame on one side of the ball or just one person. In the end this year's team is completely different than previous years' teams. You cannot compare them. Also, you cannot put the blame of a loss soley on one person. Rodgers blew it, it was an awful throw. McCarthy had awful play calls on their last FG. The defense truly blew it on coverage with 2 deep balls. Go on though, ignore logic. Keep those blinders on. keep thinking there is only one answer to this question. Stay close minded. Keep beating a dead horse

We'll never know? Actually we know quite well.By your logic, you can never analyze anything. Way too complicated, too many variables, lets just not even try.We knew it was a bad move back in June. Keep Favre, extend Rogers, play football. Going into the season with 3 qbs, 0 nfl starts, that was a good move? Taking a 13-3 NFC championship game team, and rebuilding? And yes starting a QB with 0 NFL starts is rebuilding. It was wrong on June 20th, and it's wrong now. And it has nothing to do with todays game, or Rodgers stats. He's been great.

So if he has been great...can you admit the rest of the team is not that good and that even #4 would not make this team a contender.And if they are not a contender...why even bring him back?

Dude seriously, the Giants sucked a lot during the regular season last year. There is no way of telling which team is a real contender and which is a joke until they man up during the playoffs.

Dude seriously...look at that Giants team...then this current Packer team. There is no comparison. This Packer team cannot even man up and stop a kickoff return and suddenly the 2ndary is getting burnt too.The Giants after the big Minny loss (terrible game by Eli), went on to beat the Eagles and Bears on the road, lost a tough game against Washington (a playoff team) then took care of business at Buffalo and played NE tough.The D was better the run game was better and so on...than this Packer team.This Packer team is not a contending team. Not with this defense unless they got on some crazy hot streak...which the way they are playing is not happening, in fact, its getting worse.The comparison was foolish.

The Giants make most teams look bad in comparison right now.

 

[sho nuff]

Rodgers is not the problem in Green Bay. Coaching decisions, preperation on the part of the defense, offensive line injuries and struggles, and the lack of any type of identity on defense are the problems. Rodgers is playing at an elite level. Anybody who doesn't see that is either blind or fishing. Rodgers is playing tough, accurate football. He's making good decisions. He's putting the ball on the money. The defense can't stop anyone. I'd say losing Cullen Jenkins and Corey Williams are as big a factors in the Packers losing record as losing Favre. Coaching decisions also seem to be a problem. A team that loses 4 games be 4 points or less needs to look at the coaching.Also, penalties, penalties, penalties. Although Rodgers doesn't get a pass on that either because he had two delay of games yesterday. But overall he's played at a playoff caliber level. The rest of the team has come backwards quite a bit in terms of being ready to play, be that from loss of personnel, penalties, or the inability of the coaching staff to have the team mentally prepared.

Panthers defense gave up over 30 points today and won. Jets defense is giving up 2 points less per game than the packers last I checked yet they are winning.Sure the Packers defense is not the Steelers defense but they are also not the Texans, Lions, Rams or Chiefs.Maybe they are not coming out ready to play because they lost a great leader on the field leader. Out of curiosity how many coaching changes where they from last year to this year. Pretty sure it's the same HC but outside that I wouldn't know. Face it. Rodgers was a drop at the QB position this year. He shows great flashes but why does it have to be everything but Rodgers?

I don't believe any coaching changes were made.EDIT to add: I think there will be some this offseason. Most notably the special teams coach and DC will likely be changed.Of course there was a drop. I don't think many have disagreed there was a drop and that was expected.But you went from the biggest drop...to just a drop.Face it...the defense has not been good. You can keep trying to explain it by looking through box scores all you want...but the defense got 41 points put on them combined in the first halves of the past 2 weeks. 86 points total in two games. That is terrible.Rodgers twice had the team with a lead in the 4th quarter. Once with under 2 minutes left.

 

[Man in the yellow hat]

Bob McGinn prior to yesterdays game- Pack's cool ways yield tepid playGreen Bay - The Green Bay Packers appear to have a void in energy and leadership due in part to the controlled, conservative atmosphere favored by general manager Ted Thompson, coach Mike McCarthy and president Mark Murphy.If you play, coach, scout or otherwise work for the Packers these days, the philosophy is rather simple. Winning is everything, and just a year ago, the Packers had one of their most unexpectedly successful seasons ever, finishing 13-3 in the regular season and then advancing within an overtime of the Super Bowl.Then there are expectations, written and unwritten, that define the Packers' corporate culture. Better to be seen than heard. Work hard, work smart. Team overrides all.The Packers now find themselves with a 5-6 record. They also lack personality. They don't have much fire. In short, they're pretty blah.A day or two after the Tennessee Titans improved to 8-0 earlier this month with an overtime victory over Green Bay, a member of their coaching-scouting departments could only shake his head at the Packers."I honestly feel that was the toughest team we played this year," the executive said. "Without question. I don't know how Green Bay is losing. The way they played us, I was really impressed. I expected more from them."Once Aaron Rodgers proved himself a capable starter at quarterback, so did I. But something's missing from the 2008 Packers and it's hard to pinpoint exactly what it is.Obviously, the deficiencies on the field are the primary reasons for the Packers' freefall back to mediocrity. The offense is ordinary. The defense is marginal. The special teams are average.But day after day and week after week, my colleagues and I cover those areas of the team. Still, it doesn't add up. The Packers have had their share of injuries, but nowhere near the point where it's an excuse for not having a better season.Now some will say - in fact, they might never cease to say - that trading Brett Favre is the root of the problem. And certainly, Favre's absence has been sizable, on the field and off.But Favre had his best chance in a decade to make the Super Bowl last year, just like he had his chance to play this season in Green Bay if he had committed by the end of April. Neither one materialized. The Packers were right to move on with a young man at the position.I'll be the first one to admit it. I'm grasping for an answer as to why this team has lost its winning edge.The Packers have more than enough talent to win the NFC North going away. Other than the lack of pass-rushing skills from their defensive linemen, they have the personnel of a playoff team.Events of Monday night in New Orleans provided the origin for this column. It was a matchup of 5-5 teams from the same conference both motivated by a chance for a berth in the post-season. The Saints played with urgency; the Packers played without energy, almost like zombies.It's dangerous to write this so soon after that game because it was the first time since December 2006 that one of McCarthy's teams had collapsed in a game that meant anything. McCarthy was dead right last week when he quibbled with those who would portray his teams as inconsistent.The truth is, they have been consistent. Maybe too consistent. And perhaps that's some of the problem.Thompson and McCarthy are flat-liners, particularly Thompson. If McCarthy were his own boss, my guess is that you'd see a lot more of his personality. But he isn't, and therefore he has submitted to Thompson's vision.The capacity of Thompson to remain composed and even-keeled through even the most tumultuous of times has been both a blessing and a curse for the organization. The Packers seldom act rashly. On the other hand, they lack a degree of spontaneity and creative response.Disciplined, dispassionateOn the field, the players selected by Thompson and coached by McCarthy perform in structured fashion. They are to be saluted for their role in minimizing the number of players involved with the legal system and the National Football League's substance-abuse policy. That discipline also carries over to the field, although the Packers do lead the NFL in penalty yardage this season.Nevertheless, the Packers don't appear outwardly to play with emotion and they generally play without an intimidating style. Other than the Lambeau Leap, players in Green Bay don't act out. They seem systematized not to do so."That's not us," wide receiver Greg Jennings said last week. "After the big plays, there's not really a whole bunch of me, me, me kind of guys."That's good. Widespread and unchecked, selfishness can wreck a team.It can be bad, however, if players feel stifled by their environment.Thompson returns phone calls but remains guarded. He recognizes that he must function as the face of the franchise, but it's an uncomfortable role for him. But he sets the tone for the organization.In January, Thompson made the decision not to renew the contract of Andrew Brandt, the vice president who handled negotiations. Bright and well-spoken, Brandt sought opportunities to deal in the public arena.His successor, Russ Ball, is regarded by previous associates as another competent executive with much to offer. But Thompson has basically placed Ball off-limits to reporters and fans, and so his voice isn't heard.Closed for businessUnder Thompson's mentor, Ron Wolf, the Packers were far more open. Wolf explained all his moves through the media to fans. Mike Holmgren trusted all his assistants to talk whenever they chose. The locker room in the 1990s was filled with vibrant, outspoken individuals.McCarthy has taken great steps to curb the temper that got him in trouble at previous coaching stops, but perhaps he has taken it too far. You don't see the jut-jawed intensity of a Bill Cowher, the unbridled joy of a Jeff Fisher or even the controlled anger of a Bill Parcells on the Green Bay sideline.One-on-one, McCarthy can be engaging and educational discussing the game. In public, McCarthy often comes across as stiff and uninformative. His defense gets assaulted in New Orleans and McCarthy chooses the word "disappointing." During games, McCarthy seems almost preoccupied calling the next play or series. Opponents praise his offense as cutting edge, but on Sundays he almost seems detached.Wolf and Holmgren used to just go off if they deemed it appropriate, and the people who buy the tickets no doubt appreciated knowing what was on their minds. It's almost as if the motto for this organization should be: "Never let them see you sweat."Bob Harlan was the one who set the tone for the Packers for almost two decades. He was smart and accessible. He was open and fun. He understood this was an entertainment business in a one-of-a-kind setting and deemed it vital for the public to know a great deal about the organization, even if it wasn't always flattering.Unlike Harlan, who answered his own phone, Murphy does not. He relies on his executive assistant to help him with his day and has incorporated layers of public-relations people. It's a more impersonal approach, to be sure, but standard operating procedure for an NFL team.Given the buttoned-down climate up top, it's no surprise that it has filtered down to the coaching staff and locker room.The assistants are allowed to do interviews two or three times a week in-season, but always with a PR person in a hallway nearby. McCarthy monitors the process in absentia. Whereas a Fritz Shurmur and many others would explain schemes and game plans to fans, the present staff is cooperative but less forthcoming.No one to followAs the NFL's youngest team for the third straight season, the Packers now have a very real leadership void. Gone are Favre and Rob Davis, judged in a poll of their teammates last January as the club's pre-eminent leaders. Davis works in player development, but his invaluable role as one of them can't be quite the same.Many of the highly paid players, such as Ryan Grant, Chad Clifton and A.J. Hawk, pretty much keep to themselves. Donald Driver appears to have stepped back in this area."We don't have that Ray Lewis-type guy," said Jennings. "Most of us are more reserved, quiet, trying to lead by example and not by word of mouth."This team doesn't have someone like Reggie White to gather up 45 others just before kickoff and bellow, "Now is the time! This is what I'm talking about!"The ringleader can be a Hall of Famer ("Mean Joe" Greene in Pittsburgh, Michael Irvin in Dallas) or an aging starter such as middle linebacker Jack "Hacksaw" Reynolds for the Super Bowl-winning San Francisco 49ers in 1981."Jack's desire to win was so strong that it challenged his teammates to play their best," 49ers coach Bill Walsh wrote in his book, "Building a Champion." "In that sense, he lifted his teammates to a higher level."So who's rallying the troops in Green Bay? Nick Barnett could get chippy and a little nasty, but now he's done for the season. Ryan Pickett speaks from the heart and is widely respected. Give Rodgers some success and a few more years, and he might move into a leadership role somewhat approximating that of Favre or Carolina's Jake Delhomme.For now, that's the way it is in Green Bay. The team has talent, just not a lot of pizzazz. Apparently, that's the plan.

Now this is a good read. This team just lacks 'it' right now. To me, that's a symptom of losing a guy like Favre. It's not like Rodgers has played badly. It's not like Thompson hasn't assembled some talent.I'll admit, I didn't think this would be as much of an issue as it is showing right now. With guys like Driver, Kampan, Tauscher, Woodson, Harris...I didn't expect this.This is a very young team finding it's way without strong veteran leadership. Kampan and Tauscher are quoted and interviewed every week, but these are two very even tempered guys who never seem to get to mean or hyped up.This team needs a bad ###. Right now, they play hard, but without much fire. They're lacking leadership.Good post ookie. We can only hope they learn from this and develop 'it' soon.

 

[zDragon]

Rodgers is not the problem in Green Bay. Coaching decisions, preperation on the part of the defense, offensive line injuries and struggles, and the lack of any type of identity on defense are the problems. Rodgers is playing at an elite level. Anybody who doesn't see that is either blind or fishing. Rodgers is playing tough, accurate football. He's making good decisions. He's putting the ball on the money. The defense can't stop anyone. I'd say losing Cullen Jenkins and Corey Williams are as big a factors in the Packers losing record as losing Favre. Coaching decisions also seem to be a problem. A team that loses 4 games be 4 points or less needs to look at the coaching.Also, penalties, penalties, penalties. Although Rodgers doesn't get a pass on that either because he had two delay of games yesterday. But overall he's played at a playoff caliber level. The rest of the team has come backwards quite a bit in terms of being ready to play, be that from loss of personnel, penalties, or the inability of the coaching staff to have the team mentally prepared.

Panthers defense gave up over 30 points today and won. Jets defense is giving up 2 points less per game than the packers last I checked yet they are winning.Sure the Packers defense is not the Steelers defense but they are also not the Texans, Lions, Rams or Chiefs.Maybe they are not coming out ready to play because they lost a great leader on the field leader. Out of curiosity how many coaching changes where they from last year to this year. Pretty sure it's the same HC but outside that I wouldn't know. Face it. Rodgers was a drop at the QB position this year. He shows great flashes but why does it have to be everything but Rodgers?

I don't believe any coaching changes were made.EDIT to add: I think there will be some this offseason. Most notably the special teams coach and DC will likely be changed.Of course there was a drop. I don't think many have disagreed there was a drop and that was expected.But you went from the biggest drop...to just a drop.Face it...the defense has not been good. You can keep trying to explain it by looking through box scores all you want...but the defense got 41 points put on them combined in the first halves of the past 2 weeks. 86 points total in two games. That is terrible.Rodgers twice had the team with a lead in the 4th quarter. Once with under 2 minutes left.

The panthers defense got 49 points put on them combined in the second halves of the past 2 weeks. 76 points total in the two games. I think Delhomme managed to not but his D in a bad position a couple of times which could reflect in the 10 point differential in the two games.Delhomme brought his team back from behind yesterday. His defense lost the lead twice in the 4th quarter. Once with under 2 minutes left.Edit: Still think Rodgers is the biggest drop on the team. Just didn't preface it last post.Rodgers has potential but the excuses need to stop. He has talent but a lot to learn and understand.

 

[sho nuff]

Rodgers is not the problem in Green Bay. Coaching decisions, preperation on the part of the defense, offensive line injuries and struggles, and the lack of any type of identity on defense are the problems. Rodgers is playing at an elite level. Anybody who doesn't see that is either blind or fishing. Rodgers is playing tough, accurate football. He's making good decisions. He's putting the ball on the money. The defense can't stop anyone. I'd say losing Cullen Jenkins and Corey Williams are as big a factors in the Packers losing record as losing Favre. Coaching decisions also seem to be a problem. A team that loses 4 games be 4 points or less needs to look at the coaching.Also, penalties, penalties, penalties. Although Rodgers doesn't get a pass on that either because he had two delay of games yesterday. But overall he's played at a playoff caliber level. The rest of the team has come backwards quite a bit in terms of being ready to play, be that from loss of personnel, penalties, or the inability of the coaching staff to have the team mentally prepared.

Panthers defense gave up over 30 points today and won. Jets defense is giving up 2 points less per game than the packers last I checked yet they are winning.Sure the Packers defense is not the Steelers defense but they are also not the Texans, Lions, Rams or Chiefs.Maybe they are not coming out ready to play because they lost a great leader on the field leader. Out of curiosity how many coaching changes where they from last year to this year. Pretty sure it's the same HC but outside that I wouldn't know. Face it. Rodgers was a drop at the QB position this year. He shows great flashes but why does it have to be everything but Rodgers?

I don't believe any coaching changes were made.EDIT to add: I think there will be some this offseason. Most notably the special teams coach and DC will likely be changed.Of course there was a drop. I don't think many have disagreed there was a drop and that was expected.But you went from the biggest drop...to just a drop.Face it...the defense has not been good. You can keep trying to explain it by looking through box scores all you want...but the defense got 41 points put on them combined in the first halves of the past 2 weeks. 86 points total in two games. That is terrible.Rodgers twice had the team with a lead in the 4th quarter. Once with under 2 minutes left.

The panthers defense got 49 points put on them combined in the second halves of the past 2 weeks. 76 points total in the two games. I think Delhomme managed to not but his D in a bad position a couple of times which could reflect in the 10 point differential in the two games.Delhomme brought his team back from behind yesterday. His defense lost the lead twice in the 4th quarter. Once with under 2 minutes left.Edit: Still think Rodgers is the biggest drop on the team. Just didn't preface it last post.Rodgers has potential but the excuses need to stop. He has talent but a lot to learn and understand.

And Delhomme's team got hammered last week too because the defense was that bad.Delhomme's defense played well early and fizzled late.Rodger's D played well for one quarter.To keep putting most of this on Rodgers continues to be very misguided...it seems most see that, but you still keep making excuses for poor defensive play. You want to talk about excuses...look at your posts about this defense the past 2 weeks. 86 points against this team. 86. There is no way to spin that into anything good.Of course Rodgers has alot to learn yet. His play has still been solid and not enough for this team to win as he is not getting enough help on the other side of the ball. Help I expected he would get this year.The D continues to be the biggest dropoff from last year, not QB play.

 

[zDragon]

Rodgers is not the problem in Green Bay. Coaching decisions, preperation on the part of the defense, offensive line injuries and struggles, and the lack of any type of identity on defense are the problems. Rodgers is playing at an elite level. Anybody who doesn't see that is either blind or fishing. Rodgers is playing tough, accurate football. He's making good decisions. He's putting the ball on the money. The defense can't stop anyone. I'd say losing Cullen Jenkins and Corey Williams are as big a factors in the Packers losing record as losing Favre. Coaching decisions also seem to be a problem. A team that loses 4 games be 4 points or less needs to look at the coaching.Also, penalties, penalties, penalties. Although Rodgers doesn't get a pass on that either because he had two delay of games yesterday. But overall he's played at a playoff caliber level. The rest of the team has come backwards quite a bit in terms of being ready to play, be that from loss of personnel, penalties, or the inability of the coaching staff to have the team mentally prepared.

Panthers defense gave up over 30 points today and won. Jets defense is giving up 2 points less per game than the packers last I checked yet they are winning.Sure the Packers defense is not the Steelers defense but they are also not the Texans, Lions, Rams or Chiefs.Maybe they are not coming out ready to play because they lost a great leader on the field leader. Out of curiosity how many coaching changes where they from last year to this year. Pretty sure it's the same HC but outside that I wouldn't know. Face it. Rodgers was a drop at the QB position this year. He shows great flashes but why does it have to be everything but Rodgers?

I don't believe any coaching changes were made.EDIT to add: I think there will be some this offseason. Most notably the special teams coach and DC will likely be changed.Of course there was a drop. I don't think many have disagreed there was a drop and that was expected.But you went from the biggest drop...to just a drop.Face it...the defense has not been good. You can keep trying to explain it by looking through box scores all you want...but the defense got 41 points put on them combined in the first halves of the past 2 weeks. 86 points total in two games. That is terrible.Rodgers twice had the team with a lead in the 4th quarter. Once with under 2 minutes left.

The panthers defense got 49 points put on them combined in the second halves of the past 2 weeks. 76 points total in the two games. I think Delhomme managed to not but his D in a bad position a couple of times which could reflect in the 10 point differential in the two games.Delhomme brought his team back from behind yesterday. His defense lost the lead twice in the 4th quarter. Once with under 2 minutes left.Edit: Still think Rodgers is the biggest drop on the team. Just didn't preface it last post.Rodgers has potential but the excuses need to stop. He has talent but a lot to learn and understand.

And Delhomme's team got hammered last week too because the defense was that bad.Delhomme's defense played well early and fizzled late.Rodger's D played well for one quarter.To keep putting most of this on Rodgers continues to be very misguided...it seems most see that, but you still keep making excuses for poor defensive play. You want to talk about excuses...look at your posts about this defense the past 2 weeks. 86 points against this team. 86. There is no way to spin that into anything good.Of course Rodgers has alot to learn yet. His play has still been solid and not enough for this team to win as he is not getting enough help on the other side of the ball. Help I expected he would get this year.The D continues to be the biggest dropoff from last year, not QB play.

Sometimes your D faces high-powered offense such as Atlanta, New Orleans or even Green Bay. The fact is Delhomme got it done in a close game and Rodgers did not. The Panther Defense and Green Bay defense did not play well. One quarterback managed to win the game and it was not Rodgers.Wow really 86 points and the panther D gave up 76 with the difference being thier QB did not throw 3 picks and give the opposing offense the ball on the 3 and 29.No go back and look at the previous 5 weeks where the defense gave up 81 points or so total.In that 5 weeks they held Indy, Ten, Chi, and Sea below their average pts per game scored. The pack defense held Atl to 27 ( 3 pts above the falcons average) the last time they met and I don't recall Rodgers throwing three picks and giving Atl points.Edit: Car (9-3) gave up 87 points in that same stretch.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I love hearing sho say over and over how bad the packers are.

yet you cant blame TT for that. How was he supposed to know these players were bad?So you cant blame TT for the Rodgers/Favre decision because the players around him suck, but the players around him only suck because of crazy cosmic flukes, not because of TT.

 

[sho nuff]

Rodgers is not the problem in Green Bay. Coaching decisions, preperation on the part of the defense, offensive line injuries and struggles, and the lack of any type of identity on defense are the problems. Rodgers is playing at an elite level. Anybody who doesn't see that is either blind or fishing. Rodgers is playing tough, accurate football. He's making good decisions. He's putting the ball on the money. The defense can't stop anyone. I'd say losing Cullen Jenkins and Corey Williams are as big a factors in the Packers losing record as losing Favre. Coaching decisions also seem to be a problem. A team that loses 4 games be 4 points or less needs to look at the coaching.Also, penalties, penalties, penalties. Although Rodgers doesn't get a pass on that either because he had two delay of games yesterday. But overall he's played at a playoff caliber level. The rest of the team has come backwards quite a bit in terms of being ready to play, be that from loss of personnel, penalties, or the inability of the coaching staff to have the team mentally prepared.

Panthers defense gave up over 30 points today and won. Jets defense is giving up 2 points less per game than the packers last I checked yet they are winning.Sure the Packers defense is not the Steelers defense but they are also not the Texans, Lions, Rams or Chiefs.Maybe they are not coming out ready to play because they lost a great leader on the field leader. Out of curiosity how many coaching changes where they from last year to this year. Pretty sure it's the same HC but outside that I wouldn't know. Face it. Rodgers was a drop at the QB position this year. He shows great flashes but why does it have to be everything but Rodgers?

I don't believe any coaching changes were made.EDIT to add: I think there will be some this offseason. Most notably the special teams coach and DC will likely be changed.Of course there was a drop. I don't think many have disagreed there was a drop and that was expected.But you went from the biggest drop...to just a drop.Face it...the defense has not been good. You can keep trying to explain it by looking through box scores all you want...but the defense got 41 points put on them combined in the first halves of the past 2 weeks. 86 points total in two games. That is terrible.Rodgers twice had the team with a lead in the 4th quarter. Once with under 2 minutes left.

The panthers defense got 49 points put on them combined in the second halves of the past 2 weeks. 76 points total in the two games. I think Delhomme managed to not but his D in a bad position a couple of times which could reflect in the 10 point differential in the two games.Delhomme brought his team back from behind yesterday. His defense lost the lead twice in the 4th quarter. Once with under 2 minutes left.Edit: Still think Rodgers is the biggest drop on the team. Just didn't preface it last post.Rodgers has potential but the excuses need to stop. He has talent but a lot to learn and understand.

And Delhomme's team got hammered last week too because the defense was that bad.Delhomme's defense played well early and fizzled late.Rodger's D played well for one quarter.To keep putting most of this on Rodgers continues to be very misguided...it seems most see that, but you still keep making excuses for poor defensive play. You want to talk about excuses...look at your posts about this defense the past 2 weeks. 86 points against this team. 86. There is no way to spin that into anything good.Of course Rodgers has alot to learn yet. His play has still been solid and not enough for this team to win as he is not getting enough help on the other side of the ball. Help I expected he would get this year.The D continues to be the biggest dropoff from last year, not QB play.

Sometimes your D faces high-powered offense such as Atlanta, New Orleans or even Green Bay. The fact is Delhomme got it done in a close game and Rodgers did not. The Panther Defense and Green Bay defense did not play well. One quarterback managed to win the game and it was not Rodgers.Wow really 86 points and the panther D gave up 76 with the difference being thier QB did not throw 3 picks and give the opposing offense the ball on the 3 and 29.No go back and look at the previous 5 weeks where the defense gave up 81 points or so total.In that 5 weeks they held Indy, Ten, Chi, and Sea below their average pts per game scored. The pack defense held Atl to 27 ( 3 pts above the falcons average) the last time they met and I don't recall Rodgers throwing three picks and giving Atl points.

The fact is...nobody is in here trying to blame Delhomme for how their games went the last 2 weeks while excusing their defense. Like you have been doing with the Packers and Rodgers.The fact is, Delhomme got bailed out by 2 big special teams plays and a WR beating out Charles Woodson for what was nearly just a jump ball.One team managed to win the game...not one QB. There is your problem right there, you continue to put it all on the QB.There you go again, talking about the 3 and the 29...ignoring that the Saints had put up 31 points prior to that again.The D played well against Chicago. Could not stop ADP to save its life but did well with the INT for a TD to keep it close. But lets not act like the D played well against Minny either.Seattle blows. The Indy game the D played great. TN, again, stop the run and they have more a chance as well. That was a team loss...not just on either side of the ball there.Simply put though, you keep making excuses for a defense that has been far worse this year than they were last year. And you might be the only one in that much denial about this aspect of the 2008 Green Bay Packers.

 

[sho nuff]

I love hearing sho say over and over how bad the packers are.

yet you cant blame TT for that. How was he supposed to know these players were bad?So you cant blame TT for the Rodgers/Favre decision because the players around him suck, but the players around him only suck because of crazy cosmic flukes, not because of TT.

Where did I ever say you can't blame TT for any of it?Keep up the spin and twist.Its laughable.Yes people...I post alot. Get over it.But if some of you would actually bring something more to the table and quit posting such spin, my post count would go down in this thread.

 

[zDragon]

Rodgers is not the problem in Green Bay. Coaching decisions, preperation on the part of the defense, offensive line injuries and struggles, and the lack of any type of identity on defense are the problems. Rodgers is playing at an elite level. Anybody who doesn't see that is either blind or fishing. Rodgers is playing tough, accurate football. He's making good decisions. He's putting the ball on the money. The defense can't stop anyone. I'd say losing Cullen Jenkins and Corey Williams are as big a factors in the Packers losing record as losing Favre. Coaching decisions also seem to be a problem. A team that loses 4 games be 4 points or less needs to look at the coaching.Also, penalties, penalties, penalties. Although Rodgers doesn't get a pass on that either because he had two delay of games yesterday. But overall he's played at a playoff caliber level. The rest of the team has come backwards quite a bit in terms of being ready to play, be that from loss of personnel, penalties, or the inability of the coaching staff to have the team mentally prepared.

Panthers defense gave up over 30 points today and won. Jets defense is giving up 2 points less per game than the packers last I checked yet they are winning.Sure the Packers defense is not the Steelers defense but they are also not the Texans, Lions, Rams or Chiefs.Maybe they are not coming out ready to play because they lost a great leader on the field leader. Out of curiosity how many coaching changes where they from last year to this year. Pretty sure it's the same HC but outside that I wouldn't know. Face it. Rodgers was a drop at the QB position this year. He shows great flashes but why does it have to be everything but Rodgers?

I don't believe any coaching changes were made.EDIT to add: I think there will be some this offseason. Most notably the special teams coach and DC will likely be changed.Of course there was a drop. I don't think many have disagreed there was a drop and that was expected.But you went from the biggest drop...to just a drop.Face it...the defense has not been good. You can keep trying to explain it by looking through box scores all you want...but the defense got 41 points put on them combined in the first halves of the past 2 weeks. 86 points total in two games. That is terrible.Rodgers twice had the team with a lead in the 4th quarter. Once with under 2 minutes left.

The panthers defense got 49 points put on them combined in the second halves of the past 2 weeks. 76 points total in the two games. I think Delhomme managed to not but his D in a bad position a couple of times which could reflect in the 10 point differential in the two games.Delhomme brought his team back from behind yesterday. His defense lost the lead twice in the 4th quarter. Once with under 2 minutes left.Edit: Still think Rodgers is the biggest drop on the team. Just didn't preface it last post.Rodgers has potential but the excuses need to stop. He has talent but a lot to learn and understand.

And Delhomme's team got hammered last week too because the defense was that bad.Delhomme's defense played well early and fizzled late.Rodger's D played well for one quarter.To keep putting most of this on Rodgers continues to be very misguided...it seems most see that, but you still keep making excuses for poor defensive play. You want to talk about excuses...look at your posts about this defense the past 2 weeks. 86 points against this team. 86. There is no way to spin that into anything good.Of course Rodgers has alot to learn yet. His play has still been solid and not enough for this team to win as he is not getting enough help on the other side of the ball. Help I expected he would get this year.The D continues to be the biggest dropoff from last year, not QB play.

Sometimes your D faces high-powered offense such as Atlanta, New Orleans or even Green Bay. The fact is Delhomme got it done in a close game and Rodgers did not. The Panther Defense and Green Bay defense did not play well. One quarterback managed to win the game and it was not Rodgers.Wow really 86 points and the panther D gave up 76 with the difference being thier QB did not throw 3 picks and give the opposing offense the ball on the 3 and 29.No go back and look at the previous 5 weeks where the defense gave up 81 points or so total.In that 5 weeks they held Indy, Ten, Chi, and Sea below their average pts per game scored. The pack defense held Atl to 27 ( 3 pts above the falcons average) the last time they met and I don't recall Rodgers throwing three picks and giving Atl points.

The fact is...nobody is in here trying to blame Delhomme for how their games went the last 2 weeks while excusing their defense. Like you have been doing with the Packers and Rodgers.The fact is, Delhomme got bailed out by 2 big special teams plays and a WR beating out Charles Woodson for what was nearly just a jump ball.One team managed to win the game...not one QB. There is your problem right there, you continue to put it all on the QB.There you go again, talking about the 3 and the 29...ignoring that the Saints had put up 31 points prior to that again.The D played well against Chicago. Could not stop ADP to save its life but did well with the INT for a TD to keep it close. But lets not act like the D played well against Minny either.Seattle blows. The Indy game the D played great. TN, again, stop the run and they have more a chance as well. That was a team loss...not just on either side of the ball there.Simply put though, you keep making excuses for a defense that has been far worse this year than they were last year. And you might be the only one in that much denial about this aspect of the 2008 Green Bay Packers.

Hey I just looked at the Colts (8-4) same 5 game stretch and their defense gave up 127 points. They are not far worse than they were last year. Far worse would be from 5th to 20th. A drop of 3-5 spots is not far worse.So if Rodgers had won the game would he get credit where you discredited Delhomme?

 

[sho nuff]

Hey I just looked at the Colts (8-4) same 5 game stretch and their defense gave up 127 points. They are not far worse than they were last year. Far worse would be from 5th to 20th. A drop of 3-5 spots is not far worse.So if Rodgers had won the game would he get credit where you discredited Delhomme?

You realize Peyton Manning was 15/21 for 125 yards and 2 INTs yesterday right? And they won.Don't try and compare teams across like that who play different schedules and have different groups around them.Last year's defense was 6th in points against...they are 23rd this year. Yes, thats worse than 3-5 spots and worse than your 5th to 20th example.11th in yards against, 18th this year.That is far worse no matter how much you keep living in denial about the play of this defense.If the Packers had won the game the Packers would get credit.Had the Packers won the game I would not have bashed Jake Delhomme for not getting it done when his defense had let him down.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I love hearing sho say over and over how bad the packers are.

yet you cant blame TT for that. How was he supposed to know these players were bad?So you cant blame TT for the Rodgers/Favre decision because the players around him suck, but the players around him only suck because of crazy cosmic flukes, not because of TT.

Where did I ever say you can't blame TT for any of it?Keep up the spin and twist.Its laughable.Yes people...I post alot. Get over it.But if some of you would actually bring something more to the table and quit posting such spin, my post count would go down in this thread.

spin????the packers are 5-7. This thread was started because people obviously feel that is because of letting Favre go.Your defense to that statement is that the rest of the team is bad(except for grant of course, he is a stud of course). How can a team have bad players, but a good GM? Maybe if that GM had a great track record to fall back on, I could buy it.TT has a 4-12 record, 8-8 record, 13-3 record, and a 5-7 record. One year in the playoffs. This is where spin enters, from you. Or is anything that i just typed not factual?

 

[sho nuff]

I love hearing sho say over and over how bad the packers are.

yet you cant blame TT for that. How was he supposed to know these players were bad?So you cant blame TT for the Rodgers/Favre decision because the players around him suck, but the players around him only suck because of crazy cosmic flukes, not because of TT.

Where did I ever say you can't blame TT for any of it?Keep up the spin and twist.Its laughable.Yes people...I post alot. Get over it.But if some of you would actually bring something more to the table and quit posting such spin, my post count would go down in this thread.

spin????the packers are 5-7. This thread was started because people obviously feel that is because of letting Favre go.Your defense to that statement is that the rest of the team is bad(except for grant of course, he is a stud of course). How can a team have bad players, but a good GM? Maybe if that GM had a great track record to fall back on, I could buy it.TT has a 4-12 record, 8-8 record, 13-3 record, and a 5-7 record. One year in the playoffs. This is where spin enters, from you. Or is anything that i just typed not factual?

Spin...making claims as if others have said something...only they never said it.The thread was started because people are misguided in thinking it was because of letting Favre go.Its not just that the team is bad...they have talent, but they have not played well. Grant a stud? Nope, Im not saying that either, more of your spin huh. Is that the only way you can even have a discussion is to completely misrepresent what others are saying?I did not say the players are just bad. Again, you are spinning comments to keep arguing.Andthis GM has a nice track record to fall back on...try looking at his career before coming to GB.Just putting the 4-12 on TT is shortsighted as well isnt it...it does not take into consideration anything about the makeup of that team prior to his arrival or cap shape or depth or age or anything.Its spin...and its all from you...because you just can't seem to post what people have actually said...and instead need to try and twist words in order to argue.Plenty that you have typed is not factual...hence me saying you spin things.